A gun owner today

[John Smith]

Shot his ex-wife and her new husband. Then, when the police caught up to him, shot himself.

Now we have a 15 year old boy with no dad, no step dad, and possibly no mom (don't know how she's going to do).

According to neighbors, he fired lots of shots. Number reported as of now is 16.

I'd really love to see an unbiased study of how many lives are lost to guns, how many are saved by guns, and what types of guns.

We need to pass a test to drive a car, but not to have a baby or own a gun.

[Bob Adams]

Can't get an unbiased study, just not gonna happen. Got a news link? It's a shame she didn't have a gun to defend herself with.

[John Smith]

Can't get an unbiased study, just not gonna happen. Got a news link? It's a shame she didn't have a gun to defend herself with.
She and her new husband were both corrections officers, so perhaps they did. It was an ambush.

I'll try to find a link in the local paper tomorrow when they'll be more facts and less speculation.

[Nanoose]

How would the requirement to pass a gun test have altered this event? Not in the slightest.

[Paul Pless]

Shot his ex-wife and her new husband. Then, when the police caught up to him, shot himself.where'd this happen?

[John Smith]

Not much detail, but:

http://www.news12.com/articleDetail.jsp?articleId=248823&position=1&news_type=news&rand=

[Paul Pless]

Not much detail, but:

http://www.news12.com/articleDetail.jsp?articleId=248823&position=1&news_type=news&rand=
that site doesn't work for me

[Paul Pless]

so where'd it happen?

[Phillip Allen]

say...I'm a gun owner...does that mean I'm gonna shoot someone?

(do you reckon the thread title is unbiased?)

[ishmael]

I'm gonna disagree with that, Deb. A modicum of training might have stayed the hand. If you know this weapon is going to hurt, maybe kill, it makes an impression. I know it did on me.

If someone is trying to hurt me or a loved one, I haven't a problem, much, with shooting them. Protect and defend is a natural impulse. I wouldn't like it, but I'd do it.

[Phillip Allen]

trainning won't alter anyone's personality

[huisjen]

Look out, Mama,
there's a white boat
comin' up the river
With a big red beacon,
and a flag,
and a man on the rail
I think you'd better call John,
'Cause it don't
look like they're here
to deliver the mail
And it's less than a mile away
I hope they didn't come to stay
It's got numbers on the side
and a gun
And it's makin' big waves.

Daddy's gone,
my brother's out hunting
in the mountains
Big John's been drinking
since the river took Emmy-Lou
So the powers that be
left me here
to do the thinkin'
And I just turned twenty-two
I was wonderin' what to do
And the closer they got,
The more those feelings grew.

Daddy's rifle in my hand
felt reassurin'
He told me,
Red means run, son,
numbers add up to nothin'
But when the first shot
hit the docks I saw it comin'
Raised my rifle to my eye
Never stopped to wonder why.
Then I saw black,
And my face splashed in the sky.

Shelter me from the powder
and the finger
Cover me with the thought
that pulled the trigger
Think of me
as one you'd never figured
Would fade away so young
With so much left undone
Remember me to my love,
I know I'll miss her.

[Phillip Allen]

What is that, Dan?

[TerryLL]

so where'd it happen?
The story is out of News 12 on Long Island. Town of Hamilton.

Here's a different link:

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2010/04/authorities_expand_search_area.html

[S/V Laura Ellen]

We need to pass a test to drive a car, but not to have a baby or own a gun.

Won't work, not now not ever.
Gun registry is a sham to make the anti-gun crowd happy.
I'm sure the owner of the gun could pass any test the authorities could water down enough to get passed into law.

[S/V Laura Ellen]

say...I'm a gun owner...does that mean I'm gonna shoot someone?

Probably...but I'm saying that only because I know you.:D

[The Bigfella]

Dare I point out that I'm unbiased in this regard? I'm perhaps liable to be called biased, as I'm a gun-owner and regular shooter.

The answer to the first part of your question John, is that every 67th American who has died over the last 30 years has died of a gunshot wound.

The percentage is much higher for males though. Every 41st American male (excluding military excursions) who has died in the last 30 years, died of a gunshot wound.

[Phillip Allen]

Ian, I knew you were biased when you first seperated men and women to tweak the numbers

[TerryLL]

The answer to the first part of your question John, is that every 67th American who has died over the last 30 years has died of a gunshot wound.

The percentage is much higher for males though. Every 41st American male (excluding military excursions) who has died in the last 30 years, died of a gunshot wound.

Link please.
I think we've had this conversation before.

[Phillip Allen]

rather than seperating men and women to concentrate the numbers, why not seperate left-handed and right-handed shooters....it makes sense as right-side dominate people are often different than left-side dominate people in agressiveness

[The Bigfella]

Ian, I knew you were biased when you first seperated men and women to tweak the numbers

Phillip. Please explain how separating men and women in a statistical study is bias?

That's a crap call - and I'll call you on it until you withdraw it.

[Phillip Allen]

there is absolutely no reason, onther than to gain a desired number, to seperate men from women

if it were not so, all "per capita" comparisons would do the same thing

[Phillip Allen]

Ian, do your gun laws differ between women and men?

[Paul Pless]

The percentage is much higher for males though. Every 41st American male (excluding military excursions) who has died in the last 30 years, died of a gunshot wound.

Amazingly lucky I must be... I know dozens and dozens and dozens of gun owners, and I've never personally known anyone that's died from a gunshot, what are the odds???

You know what?that doesn't even matter, just being an American I must have an acquaintance whose died of a gunshot, yet I don't. . .:rolleyes:

[Phillip Allen]

Amazingly lucky I must be... I know dozens and dozens and dozens of gun owners, and I've never personally known anyone that's died from a gunshot, what are the odds???

You know what?that doesn't even matter, just being an American I must have an acquaintance whose died of a gunshot, yet I don't. . .:rolleyes:

at the very best, those will be raw numbers and uncompensated in any way

[Michael D. Storey]

How would the requirement to pass a gun test have altered this event? Not in the slightest.
That is an unwarranted assumption. Nothing is known of the kind of the test.
I reckon a good gun ownership test would circulate around mental stability, criminal record, self destructive behaviour, danger to others, gun use safety knowledge, etc.
Marksmanship, Sam Colt's birthday, I guess not.

[Jgillis]

Clearly some people in the world should not be allowed to own a gun .............................but which ones are they?

[BrianW]

Millions of gun owners didn't kill anyone today.

Somebody without a gun killed someone today.

The title is a pure troll.

Moving on...

[The Bigfella]

Link please.
I think we've had this conversation before.

We don't need a link Terry. The statistics are freely available.

Here's the numbers that I collated from the CDC website.... going through the stats year by year.

From 1980 to 2005 a total of 57.9 million Americans died. 29.550 million males and 28.353 million females. For the same years, 858,135 of those deaths had the primary cause of death listed as gunshot. 727,336 males and 130,799 females.

You do the maths.

There's no bias.

[ishmael]

A boy's carbine I learned on is at a friend's house. I need to retrieve it.

Duncan is a pretty good visual artist. His wife, Catherine, is pretty good too. Neither of them make a living at it, they are both university teachers. I'm not sure, can't remember, how those carbines ended up there. Some happenstance.

The carbine is a Remington. .22. I want it back, just for ****s and giggles. Put one cartrige in the chamber, and it goes. Be kind, be honest.

[The Bigfella]

there is absolutely no reason, onther than to gain a desired number, to seperate men from women

if it were not so, all "per capita" comparisons would do the same thing

... and they do. Check out a statistics source sometime. You might learn something.

[huisjen]

Moving on, how many people died in car accidents today? How many drowned in swimming pools?

Dan

[SMARTINSEN]

Hamilton township is in NJ, just north of Newark. White, mostly, middle class suburbs.

[Paul Pless]

Hamilton township is in NJ, just north of Newark. White, mostly, middle class suburbs.with some of the most restrictive firearm laws in the country

[Bob Adams]

Oh goodie, Mr. 41 has shown up. I predict 3 pages. I'm outta here.

[TerryLL]

You do the maths.

There's no bias.

OK, I did the math, using your numbers. One out of every 67 Americans who died did so as a result of gunshot. That's about 1.5 %.

[huisjen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_causes_of_death_by_rate

Try that.

Dan

[The Bigfella]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_causes_of_death_by_rate

Try that.

Dan

Yep... sum those causes of death and you get 183.56% Terrific.

btw... they are world-wide figures. Just shows you how far out of whack the situation is in the USA eh?

[The Bigfella]

OK, I did the math, using your numbers. One out of every 67 Americans who died did so as a result of gunshot. That's about 1.5 %.

Yep. The situation is far worse for males, and far better for females (if its possible to accept many thousands of unnecessary deaths as "better")

Its a tad under 2.5% for males.

[The Bigfella]

Oh goodie, Mr. 41 has shown up. I predict 3 pages. I'm outta here.

See ya Bob.

[pefjr]

What are the odds???

Double those odds, aren't you from Alabama?

[htom]

Over half of them suicides. Most of the rest murders, homicides of some sort, a few LEO shootings, a few self-defense. Firearms death by accident are, most years, lower than bicycle deaths.

[Fitz]

Was the guy that did this up on all of his necessary licenses?

[pefjr]

Was the guy that did this up on all of his necessary licenses?He is now.

[The Bigfella]

Yep. They make suicide an easy option. Just like homicide. Gun homicide was 15 times more prevalent in the US than here when I looked at it a while back... actually, I suppose I should be more accurate for the pedants.

The gun homicide rate in the US was 1475% higher than the rate in Aus.... and we know that its been getting better here since then too.

That's within an acceptable range. Collateral damage and all that.

[Phillip Allen]

so, anything that we shouldn't do that is made easier by some device is reason to deny us the device?

[Larks]

So, forgetting for a moment anything about statistics at all - don't ya kinda realise that you guys in the States see a heck of a lot of shootings over there? Murders, suicides, woundings’ or otherwise!! And you're not (considered) to be in a war zone...are you??

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Millions of gun owners didn't kill anyone today.

Somebody without a gun killed someone today.

The title is a pure troll.

Moving on...


yep, and your country STILL has the highest number of deaths by firearm. No relation to guns tho.:D:D

for clarification: See the post on a senior republican who wants to trade medical procedures for chickens. Yessirree, it all becomes clear:D

[The Bigfella]

so, anything that we shouldn't do that is made easier by some device is reason to deny us the device?

Gee, I somewhat taken back to see you arguing for the removal of guns from your society Phillip. I'd have thought you would have preferred some sort of common sense approach.

Still, wonders will never cease.

[Phillip Allen]

actually I'm arguing for the limiting of the internet which makes it easier to commit tarrorism

[The Bigfella]

actually I'm arguing for the limiting of the internet which makes it easier to commit tarrorism

Tarrorism?

Is that the cowardly labelling of statistics as biased?

[Phillip Allen]

I think you understand my point, lj

[Phillip Allen]

suicide is made easier by over the counter asprin sales...

[Phillip Allen]

I got an idea...you say that 1.5% jof the dead population has a bullet hole in them? How about adding in the living part of the population so that we get a better idea of just how terrible that percentage is

of the TOTAL population...what PERCENTAGE will be shot dead today?

[SMARTINSEN]

Phillip, what is your point?

Ian is correct in citing the statistics. The numbers do not lie.

[Phillip Allen]

of course they lie...(but you knew that)

[Phillip Allen]

while you're at it...try and guess my point

[RodSBT]

The Journal of American Medical Association publishes the number of Americans killed every year by screw ups made by their members. I have seen numbers as high as 200K annually. Should we register doctors and nurses as deadly weapons?

[Phillip Allen]

The Journal of American Medical Association publishes the number of Americans killed every year by screw ups made by their members. I have seen numbers as high as 200K annually. Should we register doctors and nurses as deadly weapons?

no, just deny them to those who don't toe the political line

[RodSBT]

no, just deny them to those who don't toe the political line


BINGO!..and you have Obamacare!



Good one Mr. Allen.:D

[The Bigfella]

I got an idea...you say that 1.5% jof the dead population has a bullet hole in them? How about adding in the living part of the population so that we get a better idea of just how terrible that percentage is

of the TOTAL population...what PERCENTAGE will be shot dead today?

Based on the number of deaths for the years 1979-2007, 90 Americans will die with a bullet hole in them today (that's within the borders.... and none of the stats I've quoted include war victims btw) We did the number for those wounded too a while back... another 240 or so wasn't it?

90 today, 90 yesterday, 90 tomorrow, 90 the next day.....

Yes Phillip... that includes boys and girls, men and women.

Is that biased Phillip?

Oh yeah ... percentages? Its 1.5% of all the Americans who will die today.

[SMARTINSEN]

In 2006, in the USA, there were almost 2.5 million deaths. Of those, almost 31,000 were by firearms.



About 1.3% of all deaths in the USA in 2006 were by gunshot.

From the CDC. No bias, no bull****. Just the facts. Make of them what you will.

http://www.cdc.gov/NCHS/data/nvsr/nvsr57/nvsr57_14.pdf





30,896/2,426,264=0.0127339811

[Nanoose]

That is an unwarranted assumption. Nothing is known of the kind of the test.
I reckon a good gun ownership test would circulate around mental stability, criminal record, self destructive behaviour, danger to others, gun use safety knowledge, etc.
Marksmanship, Sam Colt's birthday, I guess not.

Sure - we have not discussed the design of the test. However, even given all those elements to the hypothetical test, mentally stable people with no criminal record or history of any kind of self/other destructive behaviour have been known to snap.

[SMARTINSEN]

Using the figures from post #63, that is about 85/day. Which jives pretty closely with Ian's figures.

Again, Phillip, what is your point?

[The Bigfella]

Sure - we have not discussed the design of the test. However, even given all those elements to the hypothetical test, mentally stable people with no criminal record or history of any kind of self/other destructive behaviour have been known to snap.

Good point - so you design a system that makes it harder for "snaps" to result in harm. That doesn't mean people need be denied gun ownership.

Just look at how often forumites around here "snap" and have to get removed by young Scottie. Give you a clue as to why instruments of destruction need to be managed?

[Duncan Gibbs]

BINGO!..and you have Obamacare!



Good one Mr. Allen.:D

BOC... (Bunch Of Crap) You have not a clue as to the overall national benifits of universal health care, for business and society at large, and once you've tasted it I guarantee you'll never want to give it up.

Cheesus wept: Some you Hamericans just don't get it!

Ian isn't advocating removal of firearms as a blanket 'solution' and the fact he's a regular shooter and gun-owner should be more than a mere hint at that. He, like almost all the ROTW, advocate sensible restrictions based on logical analysis of a current situation. Outside of warzones, your country has one of the highest gun death rates in the World. Some parts of your country do have higher rates: I remember hearing an interview with a treage doctor in Chicago's south side stating that he treated more trauma wounds each night than he did as a medic in Vietnam each night. (That was on US TV when I was an uni' exchange student in the Mid-West in '87).

Rather than bloviating about "Thar gowna tik away ourr guuns an be evil preverted socialists an tik away ourrr freedoms [what an abused word that is]!!" and all that crap, look at your country in the mirror and compare it to the ROTW, freedoms and all.

We have some of the most restrictive gun laws in the OECD, but my freedom is in NO WAY impinged, and if current politics is any measure our national temper has shifted to the right at the same time these laws have taken effect.

[RodSBT]

BOC... (Bunch Of Crap) You have not a clue as to the overall national benifits of universal health care, for business and society at large, and once you've tasted it I guarantee you'll never want to give it up.

Cheesus wept: Some you Hamericans just don't get it!

Ian isn't advocating removal of firearms as a blanket 'solution' and the fact he's a regular shooter and gun-owner should be more than a mere hint at that. He, like almost all the ROTW, advocate sensible restrictions based on logical analysis of a current situation. Outside of warzones, your country has one of the highest gun death rates in the World. Some parts of your country do have higher rates: I remember hearing an interview with a treage doctor in Chicago's south side stating that he treated more trauma wounds each night than he did as a medic in Vietnam each night. (That was on US TV when I was an uni' exchange student in the Mid-West in '87).

Rather than bloviating about "Thar gowna tik away ourr guuns an be evil preverted socialists an tik away ourrr freedoms [what an abused word that is]!!" and all that crap, look at your country in the mirror and compare it to the ROTW, freedoms and all.

We have some of the most restrictive gun laws in the OECD, but my freedom is in NO WAY impinged, and if current politics is any measure our national temper has shifted to the right at the same time these laws have taken effect.

Guns are inanimate objects Duncan, they don't have wills of their own. "They" don't commit crimes. What difference does it make how someone was murdered? A human being had to do the deed, been that way for thousands of years. What ever weapon was used to commit the crime is irrelevant.

[Duncan Gibbs]

No, other than pointing out your country seems to have a national obsession with fire-arms and is well reflected in the number of movies portraying graphic and extreme gun violence.

I suggest you do away with vehicle registration and driver's licences if it's nothing to do with inanimate objects. You then work up to building and planning regulations.

[The Bigfella]

Guns are inanimate objects Duncan, they don't have wills of their own. "They" don't commit crimes. What difference does it make how someone was murdered? A human being had to do the deed, been that way for thousands of years. What ever weapon was used to commit the crime is irrelevant.

Except that when someone "snaps" and they haven't got a gun in their pocket, the other person ends up with a spitball between the eyes (or a bunch of five), rather than a bullet.

[The Bigfella]

Yep - don't need planning and building regs. Just ask the Chinese or Haitians that. Oops, sorry, they died after the earthquake. At least they were free.

[TerryLL]

We have some of the most restrictive gun laws in the OECD, but my freedom is in NO WAY impinged, and if current politics is any measure our national temper has shifted to the right at the same time these laws have taken effect.




OK. For argument's sake I will stipulate that gun violence in America is at an unacceptable level, and that restricting access to guns is the solution.

So how do we implement restrictive gun laws in the US? We have an extremely powerful and effective gun lobby, and we have a large segment of the population who believe the Constitution guarantees the right to arms. And we have a huge number of guns in the hands of people who would never be legally permitted to have them. And almost all of this gun ownership, both legal and illegal is totally undocumented.

Let's hear some realistic solutions that stand a chance in this country, and under the conditions we face here. You guys in OZ are great at criticizing the gun situation in the US, and much of that criticism is warranted. Now tell us how to fix it.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Actually start trying for once to have a rational discussion over the issue, rather than allowing the "cold dead hands" of emotion to rule the roost.

[The Bigfella]

I didn't like what they did here in the mid-90's at the time.... but I do now.

There's also a lot of evidence to show what happened, what upset people, what worked best. Given it wasn't invented in the US, I doubt that anyone would want to use it... but there's always a chance.

Here's the crux of the approach. The use of guns for "self-defence" was removed. No carrying loaded weapons, no loaded weapons in the home.... that sort of thing. Guns required to be locked up safely.... ie in a proper gun safe... with ammo in a separate locked container.

Guns required to be registered, owners licenced. Gun safes all inspected.

No auto/semi-auto weapons.

Exceptions - specific occupations/safety situations (pistols) and farmers (semi-autos).

Did that cause me any problems? One. I had a semi-auto .22 - which I got rid of (the government conducted a gun buy-back scheme at fair market value).

Penalties for illegal possession / carrying were significantly increased.... five years gaol (jail, if you must). Yes, we know that some crims still carry illegal weapons.... but the cops also have sniffer dogs that occasionally get walked through appropriate areas.

Gun murders here have dropped massively. Last time I looked, IIRC it was 33 for the year.... and we have about 1/15th the population size you do.

Does anyone I know who used to shoot no longer do so. Yep - one, who I believe may have a criminal conviction. That's it. Everyone else I know who used to have guns, still does.... including a mate I go shooting with. He goes to the centre-fire pistol range when I go target shooting at the Olympic range.

If I want to buy, say a shotgun, what do I do? I lodge a permit to aquire request, they check I have a licence, and issue the permit. I buy the gun.

I can and do hunt. I can shoot in State Forests if I want too.

btw.... I believe about 80 million US citizens have guns. Not all of them would oppose sensible gun safety regulation. I'd say you could easily raise a significant majority in favour of it.

[Larks]

OK. For argument's sake I will stipulate that gun violence in America is at an unacceptable level, and that restricting access to guns is the solution.

So how do we implement restrictive gun laws in the US? We have an extremely powerful and effective gun lobby, and we have a large segment of the population who believe the Constitution guarantees the right to arms. And we have a huge number of guns in the hands of people who would never be legally permitted to have them. And almost all of this gun ownership, both legal and illegal is totally undocumented.

Let's hear some realistic solutions that stand a chance in this country, and under the conditions we face here. You guys in OZ are great at criticizing the gun situation in the US, and much of that criticism is warranted. Now tell us how to fix it.

Duncan or Ian might be able to correct me on this, but after the Port Arthur massacre here our PM of the time pushed through our new gun laws regardless of public opinion or gun lobbyists. No opinion polls, but emotions were high after the massacre and what was needed was simple, strong, necessary leadership. I think it ended up as one of the few things that his detractors gave him any respect for.

I know you have a different political system but perhaps it’s time your Pres’ tried much the same. Is it realistic?

[TerryLL]

Actually start trying for once to have a rational discussion over the issue, rather than allowing the "cold dead hands" of emotion to rule the roost.

A rational discussion is out of the question. Won't happen. That's just a plain fact of life here.

Ian.
It's good to hear how you guys did it. I congratulate you on your success. But the US is not OZ by a very wide margin, and not a single provision of your law has the slightest chance of being adopted here. That's the reality.

[TerryLL]

I know you have a different political system but perhaps it’s time your Pres’ tried much the same. Is it realistic?

No. It would be the end of his presidency. Regardless of his stand on the issue, and I don't purport to know his thoughts, I believe he is too astute to challenge the gun lobby.

[pefjr]

A rational discussion is out of the question. Won't happen. That's just a plain fact of life here.

Ian.
It's good to hear how you guys did it. I congratulate you on your success. But the US is not OZ by a very wide margin, and not a single provision of your law has the slightest chance of being adopted here. That's the reality.Well, there is always a chance but it would be tough.......... Need a good leader to start and Obama is not the liberal on this issue that he should be. Biden may be? Right now it's not an important issue. We are immune and blind to the effects of guns.

[TerryLL]

Right now it's not an important issue. We are immune and blind to the effects of guns.

Agreed.

[ishmael]

There was a big noise the other night. I woke from a small dream, Catawumpous gave a start. What the hell was that?

My first impulse wasn't the shotgun, though I admit it was a second inpulse.

It was strange. A big branch falling on the roof? I don't know, maybe bigfoot? It shook the place, boom. What the hell was that?

[The Bigfella]

There was a big noise the other night. I woke from a small dream, Catawumpous gave a start. What the hell was that?

My first impulse wasn't the shotgun, though I admit it was a second inpulse.

It was strange. A big branch falling on the roof? I don't know, maybe bigfoot? It shook the place, boom. What the hell was that?

Large breast suddenly going from pert to not-pert?

[Dr.Spoke]

Philip, Brian W et al.
I understand your point, guns are only offensive weapons in the wrong hands. The problem for us looking at the US, is how many wrong hands you've got. More people die, or are injured from gunshot wounds in the US ( intentionally or accidentally) than in any other country you would like to mentioned in the same breath.

As an aside: my 1.5yr. daughter likes to play with cutlery, particularly knives, we are trying to discourage this until she is older and capable of understanding the danger, by not leaving knives around for her to play with and removing them from her when she gets one.


Now you can look at the problem from our view and say - you've got too many guns. The other options are: you've got too many psychopaths, sociopaths, morons, unfit people in your society; or your society is broke!
Now if it is one of the latter options - do you give up and say american society can't be fixed. You have the means for mass suicide. Or does one remove the problem until society "grows-up" enough to not hurt themselves with it... i.e. less guns.
Most societies have deemed it more responsible to limit fire-arms than to grant "freedoms" to all that only some can handle, in the interests of the populace as a whole.

My daughter will grow up to be able to handle a knife - if only eating with one, will america grow up to be able to handle guns?

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

.....My daughter will grow up to be able to handle a knife - if only eating with one, will america grow up to be able to handle guns?

Don't start them on cutlery - have you ever seen an American with BOTH a knife and a fork?

[stevebaby]

Guns are inanimate objects Duncan, they don't have wills of their own. "They" don't commit crimes. What difference does it make how someone was murdered? A human being had to do the deed, been that way for thousands of years. What ever weapon was used to commit the crime is irrelevant.Heroin and cocaine are inanimate substances too.
Would you have them as freely available as firearms?

[stevebaby]

The Journal of American Medical Association publishes the number of Americans killed every year by screw ups made by their members. I have seen numbers as high as 200K annually. Should we register doctors and nurses as deadly weapons? No need.Doctors and nurses are already required to be registered.
And for a very good reason. It saves lives.

[Duncan Gibbs]

We are immune and blind to the effects of guns.

Bud, although we're from opposing political spectrums I have to say that I find your clarity and logic most affirming and I have a great deal of respect for you as a result.

[seanz]

actually I'm arguing for the limiting of the internet which makes it easier to commit tarrorism


And cell phones....I hear tarotism is an expensive problem.........


Guns, again?


People should have their problem solving skills checked before they get a permit.

[Candyfloss]

Can't get an unbiased study, just not gonna happen. Got a news link? It's a shame she didn't have a gun to defend herself with.

I'm still stunned by this. The sheer callousness of it.

Life in America is a war? You have to be armed to survive? God protect me from "freedom".

[The Bigfella]

I'm still stunned by this. The sheer callousness of it.

Life in America is a war? You have to be armed to survive? God protect me from "freedom".

Oh yeah.

[James River Rat]

Been away for a couple of months. Forgot just how much I love and hate the WBF.

You aren't going to make guns disappear in any of our lifetimes.

If you try only the good guys will honor the request.

This leaves the bad guys with guns and the good guys without....and you thin that will be a BETTER solution than now???

I will continue to carry a firearm day in and day out and hope and pray that I never need to kill anyone in defense of my family or myself, but I will be damned if you or any other lib or governemnt will take that right from me.

By the way...the last suicide I know of???? Bought a tank of helium at a party store, a hose at the hardware store and slipped a bag over his head and filled it with helium. Gonna outlaw those?

[purri]

Give it up fellas! The US has its own way of dealing with the subject. LJH did the usual weasel with Janette's directive to demonise owners for his own domestic harmony. Since then there's been a whole heap of "tacticals" doing their ME group paybacks with unauthorised, illegal and stolen weapons.

Remember school cadets anyone? GET REAL!

[stevebaby]

Been away for a couple of months. Forgot just how much I love and hate the WBF.

You aren't going to make guns disappear in any of our lifetimes.

If you try only the good guys will honor the request.

This leaves the bad guys with guns and the good guys without....and you thin that will be a BETTER solution than now???

How are laws restricting firearm ownership any different to laws restricting the use of any other potentially lethal substance or object?

[LeeG]

http://img.wonkette.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/planet-of-the-apes.jpg

it's a jungle out there, or a day at the beach in a furry loin cloth

[stevebaby]

Give it up fellas! The US has its own way of dealing with the subject. LJH did the usual weasel with Janette's directive to demonise owners for his own domestic harmony. Since then there's been a whole heap of "tacticals" doing their ME group paybacks with unauthorised, illegal and stolen weapons.

Remember school cadets anyone? GET REAL! Great suggestion re cadets! Anyone wanting to use a firearm should,by law, be restricted to firing it at a range under the supervision of an NCO. The firearm should be stored in an armoury when not in use and military justice should be applied to anyone committing a breach.
Was that what you had in mind? :D

[LeeG]

http://pepperedthought.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/sarah-connor.jpg

a gun didn't prevent Skynet from happening but it was all we had

[purri]

Great suggestion re cadets! Anyone wanting to use a firearm should,by law, be restricted to firing it at a range under the supervision of an NCO. The firearm should be stored in an armoury when not in use and military justice should be applied to anyone committing a breach.
Was that what you had in mind? :D
Emphatically NO!.

Current regs stipulate safekeeping on owners premises. The aggregration of arms leads to an easy (PRO RATA) target for illegal acquisition.

The right to hunt is an absolute under sundry UN conventions.

Trollski, nyet? :D

[Phillip Allen]

gad, you guys are outa hand again

[Paul Pless]

gad, you guys are outa hand againParticipation in gun control threads has gotta be about the dumbest thing I do here. I think I'm done with them.

[TerryLL]

Life in America is a war? You have to be armed to survive? God protect me from "freedom".

If your entire source of information is the news media, and have no first hand experience about "Life in America", you might well come to the conclusion that Americans live in a war zone and that we all need to be armed. But it is not that way.

There is a lot of gun violence that is gang-related and drug-related in some areas of most large cities. But once outside those areas, life is generally peaceful. People go about their day-to-day and rarely if ever think about guns or hear gunfire.

I'm not an apologist for our high rate of gun violence, it's way too high. But the overwhelming majority of Americans go about their daily lives unaffected by it.

[OconeePirate]

We need to pass a test to drive a car, but not to have a baby or own a gun.

You say that they were corrections officers? In most states corrections officers have to be POST (Peace Officer Standards Training?) certified. Basic cop training, guns, etc...

In the countries that have stricter gun control, the ones that have lower statistics of idiots shooting people, what are their statistics on people stabbing each other to death? Beating each other to death?

[Phillip Allen]

You say that they were corrections officers? In most states corrections officers have to be POST (Peace Officer Standards Training?) certified. Basic cop training, guns, etc...

In the countries that have stricter gun control, the ones that have lower statistics of idiots shooting people, what are their statistics on people stabbing each other to death? Beating each other to death?

those stats aren't kept...no political hay to be had

[The Bigfella]

those stats aren't kept...no political hay to be had

I hold some hope that one day you will make an informed comment

[Phillip Allen]

I hold some hope that one day you will make an informed comment

How will you know when that happens?

[The Bigfella]

How will you know when that happens?

I guess the chances are that I'll have supplied the information, eh Phillip? Have you ever taken a look at any primary research material? Better yet, ever done any research?

[switters]

http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk221/switters_bucket/skiff3/IMAG0025.jpg

Insanity is the act of doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result each time, and you boys are crazy.

The good news is that I got my work bench cleaned off and my sweetie bought me some good beer.

Have a great earth day,

[Paul Pless]

beer for breakfast, my kinda guy :)

you're probably going fishing today too aren't ya?

[Phillip Allen]

Thanks, switters...I think I will. I'm going shooting

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q196/phillipdallen/001-3.jpg

[switters]

beer for breakfast, my kinda guy :)

you're probably going fishing today too aren't ya?

I've been fishing everyday on my lunch hour, the sunfish, bluegill and microbass have been hitting a prince nymph bead head. Unfortunately I'm targeting carp so I can get my drag set for the season.

[Phillip Allen]

you fish for carp...ON PURPOSE???

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

The Journal of American Medical Association publishes the number of Americans killed every year by screw ups made by their members. I have seen numbers as high as 200K annually. Should we register doctors and nurses as deadly weapons?

Nice argument. It works if you know absolutely nothing about logic, but otherwise, it's totally bogus. :D

[Phillip Allen]

Nice argument. It works if you know absolutely nothing about logic, but otherwise, it's totally bogus. :D

well, that's a first...no one ever wants logic included with his stats

[switters]

you fish for carp...ON PURPOSE???

every spring, if you can land a 10lb carp on a 4wt fly rod you know the drag is set the right way, and you dont have to worry about it when you hook into a nice fat trout in the current later in the season.

I do my spinning rods the same way after I put new line on.

Bonus points, it is actually pretty fun.

sorry to derail the gun thread, I hope none of the usual actors have lost their place in the script.:D

[Bob Adams]

I meant to stay away from this thread, but like a train wreck, I can't help it. I got tired of out friends down under telling us how superior they are with their gun control, so I Googled "Australian Murder Rate" and came up with results like this:

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html

I read the first 3 or 4 hits, they all said one thing, the gun ban has done nothing. Go ahead Mr. 41, do a search.

The Baltimore Sun yesterday ran a story (inside of course, no evil guns were involved) a house was broken into and 3 occupants stabbed. I gues knives should be banned also? They will use clubs then, or whatever it takes. I'll keep my guns thank you, theyu've already chased 2 invaders from my home.

[The Bigfella]

I meant to stay away from this thread, but like a train wreck, I can't help it. I got tired of out friends down under telling us how supierior thery are with thier gun control, so I Googled "Austrailian Murder Rate" and came up with results like this:

... are we missing something here?

[The Bigfella]

It might help if you could spell the country name correctly

[Paul Pless]

Thanks, switters...I think I will. I'm going shooting

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q196/phillipdallen/001-3.jpg

So you bought the FN!? I see you got the handle, and the flash suppressor.:D

[Paul Pless]

Unfortunately I'm targeting carp so I can get my drag set for the season.


you fish for carp...ON PURPOSE???

I fish for carp too, CPR. Amazing sport fish! A ten pound or larger carp in three feet of water, on light line is a spectacular fight.

[Phillip Allen]

So you bought the FN? I see you got the handle.:D

yeah...and the stupid knob on the end too...I'll see about having it removed...the handle is easy to take off

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Bang Bang pardner.

[Paul Pless]

Well it did come with your favorite type of sight. Are they micrometer, with interchangeable arpetures?

[Phillip Allen]

Well it did come with your favorite type of sight. Are they micrometer, with interchangeable arpetures?

nope, just assault sights

[Paul Pless]

My M1A loved 168 grain Sierra boat tail hollow points, both factory and handloads.

[The Bigfella]

I meant to stay away from this thread, but like a train wreck, I can't help it. I got tired of out friends down under telling us how superior they are with their gun control, so I Googled "Australian Murder Rate" and came up with results like this:

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html

I read the first 3 or 4 hits, they all said one thing, the gun ban has done nothing. Go ahead Mr. 41, do a search.

The Baltimore Sun yesterday ran a story (inside of course, no evil guns were involved) a house was broken into and 3 occupants stabbed. I gues knives should be banned also? They will use clubs then, or whatever it takes. I'll keep my guns thank you, theyu've already chased 2 invaders from my home.

Why would you do that sort of search? Why not use the facts.... straight from the Aust Bureau of Statistics

Murders - 2008 in Australia
Weapon used

Firearm 31
Knife 87
Syringe 0
Bottle/glass 3
Bat/bar/club 3
Chemical 3
Other weapon 35
Weapon n.f.d 11
Total weapon used 173
No weapon used 85
Unspecified 0
Total 258

http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/subscriber.nsf/0/3906AC431CE9B86ACA2575CA00142EA1/$File/45100do001_2008.xls#TopOfTable_Table_1

and

http://www.aic.gov.au/statistics/~/media/publications/facts/2006/fig013.ashx?w=599&h=326&as=1

btw... if you had the same murder rate as us... you'd only have about 3,900 murders a year. As it is, you have three times that many, or more gun murders alone.

[Phillip Allen]

My M1A loved 168 grain Sierra boat tail hollow points, both factory and handloads.



I'm a ways from such tweaking so far...this is just to tune (roughly) the gas port

[stevebaby]

http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html

I read the first 3 or 4 hits, they all said one thing, the gun ban has done nothing.

It was on the internet, so it must be true. :D:D:D

[The Bigfella]

Hey Bob????



I read the first 3 or 4 hits, they all said one thing, the gun ban has done nothing. Go ahead Mr. 41, do a search.


What gun ban? I own four rifles, including a 308.

Is this your acceptable standard of accuracy, or is there another reason you get that sort of thing so wrong?

[Phillip Allen]

Hey Bob????



What gun ban? I own four rifles, including a 308.

Is this your acceptable standard of accuracy, or is there another reason you get that sort of thing so wrong?

are you BANNED from keeping any of the guns above for any reason?

[Paul Pless]

What gun ban? I own four rifles, including a 308.

Is this your acceptable standard of accuracy, or is there another reason you get that sort of thing so wrong?How would your firearms laws affect the ownership of my Browning A5 in 16 gauge? A gun that my dad and older brothers all learned to hunt with, as did myself.

[Phillip Allen]

he's using lj's method of symantics

[The Bigfella]

Semi auto is fine if you are a farmer - not otherwise.

I had no problem giving up my semi-auto. Damn thing was never anywhere near as accurate as even my old Winchester pump.

I never did want an Uzi.

[Phillip Allen]

Semi auto is fine if you are a farmer - not otherwise.



that translates as BANNED

while I'm thinking about it...what part of that magic number of yours (41) was done with semi auto .22's?

[Paul Pless]

What about my original Colt SAA in .32-20?

[The Bigfella]

are you BANNED from keeping any of the guns above for any reason?

No. All registered, all legal, and I'm licenced.... and I shoot more rounds every year than you do.


he's using lj's method of symantics

Put your money where your mouth is Phillip and prove a single statistic I've posted wrong.

Go ahead, make my day.... do some work rather than just slinging insults.

Pick one Phillip.

Care to?

Not up to it?

[Paul Pless]

I never did want an Uzi.A 3 shot semiauto shotgun is a far cry from an uzi.:rolleyes:

[The Bigfella]

What about my original Colt SAA in .32-20?

Registerable and able to be used legally if you are licenced.

[The Bigfella]

A 3 shot semiauto shotgun is a far cry from an uzi.:rolleyes:

So is an AK 47 - but they aren't legal here either. Are they legal in Hell?

[Phillip Allen]

put my money ...etc

okay...the reference was to my pic posted above and you deliberately answered a question which was not asked in the first place...lj tactics

[The Bigfella]

put my money ...etc

okay...the reference was to my pic posted above and you deliberately answered a question which was not asked in the first place...lj tactics

All hat, no cattle.

Pick one Phillip. Put up or shut up.

[TerryLL]

I'm off to work. You ladies will have to continue your slap-fest without me.

[Phillip Allen]

All hat, no cattle.

Pick one Phillip. Put up or shut up.

so you can own the FN?

[Phillip Allen]

I'm off to do other things for a while...see ya

[The Bigfella]

I'm sure there are plenty of them still in the country - licenced. I've got no great desire to fire them again... did that in uniform. The good old SLR was standard issue out here.

I expect I will be firing an AK47 at a range soon too. 6 weeks or so. Ill post a photo for you.

[The Bigfella]

I'm off to do other things for a while...see ya

What.... research something? Get some facts? Wow, wonders will never cease.

[Paul Pless]

So is an AK 47 - but they aren't legal here either. Are they legal in Hell?sure, with a proper license and tax stamp

[John Smith]

How would the requirement to pass a gun test have altered this event? Not in the slightest.

Depends on the typ of test. Perhaps he has a record of mental imbalance, or such, where he'd not be able to have a gun legally.

Of course there are so many guns already out there, that getting one illegally doesn't seem to be difficult.

Just pointing out, I guess, that this guy wasn't acting as a militia in support of his country.

Whether or not different gun laws would have prevented this, I've not enough information to know.

[John Smith]

where'd this happen?
Hamilton NJ

[Paul Pless]

Depends on the typ of test. Perhaps he has a record of mental imbalance, or such, where he'd not be able to have a gun legally.

Of course there are so many guns already out there, that getting one illegally doesn't seem to be difficult.

Just pointing out, I guess, that this guy wasn't acting as a militia in support of his country.

Whether or not different gun laws would have prevented this, I've not enough information to know.again... new jersey already has some of the toughest and most restrictive firearm laws in the country:rolleyes:

[John Smith]

say...I'm a gun owner...does that mean I'm gonna shoot someone?

(do you reckon the thread title is unbiased?)
No, it doesn't.

However, no one can shoot anyone if he does not have a gun.

I'm not a proponent of gun control, other than some sort of background check, which I only support half heartedly, as so many weapons are already on the streets.

I do think, however, it would make sense, were it enforcable, that it be more difficult to buy a gun than a car.

I'd support, for example, gun owner's insurance. In case their gun happens to shoot someone, even if by accident, which happens.

[Paul Pless]

that it be more difficult to buy a gun than a car.it is

[John Smith]

trainning won't alter anyone's personality
It might.

My question would be: does it matter? Do you believe one's personality should be part of whether or not one should own a gun?

[John Smith]

The story is out of News 12 on Long Island. Town of Hamilton.

Here's a different link:

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2010/04/authorities_expand_search_area.html
Thanks. The other link didn't work for me this morning, either.

To update the data in your link, the cops caught up to him, and he shot himself in the head.

[John Smith]

Won't work, not now not ever.
Gun registry is a sham to make the anti-gun crowd happy.
I'm sure the owner of the gun could pass any test the authorities could water down enough to get passed into law.

I'm sure it's not enforcable, and I don't advocate for gun control, for that reason.

It'd be like the war on drugs; useless.

Not advocating for gun control, and figuring gun control laws are a sham, however, does not mean I support everyone owning a gun.

[John Smith]

Dare I point out that I'm unbiased in this regard? I'm perhaps liable to be called biased, as I'm a gun-owner and regular shooter.

The answer to the first part of your question John, is that every 67th American who has died over the last 30 years has died of a gunshot wound.

The percentage is much higher for males though. Every 41st American male (excluding military excursions) who has died in the last 30 years, died of a gunshot wound.
To reference Archie Bunker, if these people hadn't been shot, would they have been pushed out of windows?

How many of those you site were accidental? or cops thinking someone had a gun, who didn't?

[RodSBT]

Stats for per capita murder rates around the world. The US doesn't even make the top 20.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

If you took out the numbers for the inner cities where the majority of the murders occur, and where the gun laws are most strict, those numbers would be even lower.

It's not the weapon, it's the person.

[John Smith]

there is absolutely no reason, onther than to gain a desired number, to seperate men from women

if it were not so, all "per capita" comparisons would do the same thing

I think it serves some purpose. Expect it shows more men engage in more violence and/or the women are home raising the kids.

[John Smith]

Millions of gun owners didn't kill anyone today.

Somebody without a gun killed someone today.

The title is a pure troll.

Moving on...
Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Absolutely true, but many times those people who kill people use guns to do so. If they did not have the gun, would they use a knife?

I don't support gun control, as I've stated. However, it is ludicrous to think when you have millions of people with guns, that none of them are going to use those guns to kill people.

There are gun advocates and anti-gun advocates, and neither, I believe, is in touch with reality.

The reality, I think, is that a lot of people own guns, some legally and some illegally, and no gun control law is going to change that. Some of the people who have guns are going to kill other people, and the NRA can't change that.

[John Smith]

Moving on, how many people died in car accidents today? How many drowned in swimming pools?

Dan
How many of those died because someone in another vehicle intentionally killed them? Or someone threw them into the pool?

Not a valid analogy.

The purpose of a car is got transport you. The purpose of a pool is for you to swim in.

What is the purpose of a gun?

[John Smith]

Hamilton township is in NJ, just north of Newark. White, mostly, middle class suburbs.
Actually, we are nowhere near Newark.

We are near Trenton, but mostly white, middle class.

[delecta]

Why don't we just forget it and move on, we're not going to ban guns or abortions.

Each side has their agenda and neither side will ever have the support to accomplish it.

[John Smith]

so, anything that we shouldn't do that is made easier by some device is reason to deny us the device?

I don't see anyone here, myself included, trying to deny anyone the device? That would work about as well as prohibition did.

I am trying to point out that guns allow a lot of murders that, without the guns, I doubt would even be attempted. They allow one to stand a distance from his target and ambush that target; kind of cowardly.

I'm not asking anyone to "do" anything, other, perhaps, than to get the gun proponents to admit that guns are used to kill people that, without guns, may not be killed.

[John Smith]

yep, and your country STILL has the highest number of deaths by firearm. No relation to guns tho.:D:D

for clarification: See the post on a senior republican who wants to trade medical procedures for chickens. Yessirree, it all becomes clear:D
And she's ahead in the polls. Maybe not for long now.

[John Smith]

Tarrorism?

Is that the cowardly labelling of statistics as biased?
Maybe his cat's helping him type, like mine helps me sometimes.:D

[pefjr]

Stats for per capita murder rates around the world. The US doesn't even make the top 20.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

If you took out the numbers for the inner cities where the majority of the murders occur, and where the gun laws are most strict, those numbers would be even lower.

It's not the weapon, it's the person.Here is what you want , not what you had

:http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms

[Bob Adams]

What is the purpose of a gun?

To hunt. For Sport. To defend one's self.

[RodSBT]

Here is what you want , not what you had

:http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_wit_fir-crime-murders-with-firearms


This proves that Cooper was right, hoplophobes do exist.

[SMARTINSEN]

Actually, we are nowhere near Newark.

We are near Trenton, but mostly white, middle class.

Sorry, I certainly know better, just a minor brain fart.
We have relatives in Mercerville.

[pefjr]

This proves that Cooper was right, hoplophobes do exist. Again you have it wrong, pay attention, you prove that Veritaphobias exist.

[John Smith]

OK. For argument's sake I will stipulate that gun violence in America is at an unacceptable level, and that restricting access to guns is the solution.

So how do we implement restrictive gun laws in the US? We have an extremely powerful and effective gun lobby, and we have a large segment of the population who believe the Constitution guarantees the right to arms. And we have a huge number of guns in the hands of people who would never be legally permitted to have them. And almost all of this gun ownership, both legal and illegal is totally undocumented.

Let's hear some realistic solutions that stand a chance in this country, and under the conditions we face here. You guys in OZ are great at criticizing the gun situation in the US, and much of that criticism is warranted. Now tell us how to fix it.

I don't think we can. Trying to do so is apt to lead to shootings.

Making guns illegal to own period, if we could, would simply create a black market, like we have for drugs.

Chris Green, who murdered four people in a Montclair Post Office sub station, had a legally purchased gun. And he would, likely, have passed any background check.

If he couldn't have gotten a gun legally, I'm sure he'd have found one illegally.

If he had not had a gun, however, he would not have done what he did, and my old friends would not have been killed.

I propose no sollution, as I don't see one. I'm just expressing my opinion that many crimes are committed; robberies and murders because the guns are availble with which to do them.

If we can get the gun owners to accept that, then, perhaps, someone will come up with a workable idea, assuming such a thing possible.

[John Smith]

Sorry, I certainly know better, just a minor brain fart.
We have relatives in Mercerville.

When I make that kind of mistake, I can call it a "senior moment".:D

[RodSBT]

Again you have it wrong, pay attention, you prove that Veritaphobias exist.

Hey Pefjr, thanks for the new word. It doesn't apply, but nice try anyway.

So tell me, whats the difference between being murdered with a firearm vs. a knife or screw driver?

[paladin]

I got an idea...you say that 1.5% jof the dead population has a bullet hole in them? How about adding in the living part of the population so that we get a better idea of just how terrible that percentage is

of the TOTAL population...what PERCENTAGE will be shot dead today?

What about the folks with bullet holes that survived?


A 3 shot semiauto shotgun is a far cry from an uzi.

There's 9 pellets of 00 buck in a 12 gauge round...3 rounds, 27 pellets....there's 30-32 rounds in an Uzi magazine.....I betcha I can unload 3 semiauto 12 ga. rounds faster than the Uzi can empty the magazine...which is the better broom?

[Phillip Allen]

Chuck, if you want to be counted too...data isn't kept that far back :)

[Osborne Russell]

I'd really love to see an unbiased study of how many lives are lost to guns, how many are saved by guns, and what types of guns.

I'd really love to see an unbiased study of how war with guns makes the gas cheaper when I fill up.

[Phillip Allen]

I'd really love to see an unbiased study of how war with guns makes the gas cheaper when I fill up.

a fine example of why honesty is not part of the question

[pefjr]

Hey Pefjr, thanks for the new word. It doesn't apply, but nice try anyway.

So tell me, whats the difference between being murdered with a firearm vs. a knife or screw driver?Just returning the favor of that new word you threw on me. The difference? Probably the hole the different weapons made. But the thread conversation is discussing murders by gun only.

[ishmael]

I can understand people being worried that any form of licensure might lead to rounding up guns. It's an emotional issue. Um, I still think a bit of training wouldn't hurt. You don't worry they are going to round up our automobile, do ya? Not unless you park somewhere illegal.

I'd be willing to go show someone I know which end the round comes out, pay a small fee every five years. Maybe it wouldn't help, I don't know. There're plenty of guns out there, and someone intent of using one for bad purposes probably wouldn't get a license anyway.

P.S. It's not something I worry on much. Most places I've lived, gun violence hasn't been much of an issue. Even when I was in Baltimore, then one of the murder capitols of the U.S. I walked and rode buses all over that city, all times of day or night, and never saw a gun pulled in anger. You'd read about it every once in awhile, a domestic dispute out of hand, or someone down on their luck knocking over a liquor store.

[bljones]

It's not the weapon, it's the person.
But the weapon enhances productivity. it's much harder to take out innocent bystanders and multiple former fellow employees with a Louisville Slugger, for example.


I think the genie is too far out of the bottle in the United States to enact any sort of successful firearm control legislation, so i propose the opposite tack- mandatory open carry legislation. Every citizen over the age of 13 must carry a weapon. If everyone is armed, then everyone is less likely to pull their own weapon.
Strangely enough, this idea appeals to those who argue that freedom is the best reason to carry a weapon, that carrying a weapon is a right... but if it is a requirement, doesn't that mean that one is now LESS free?

[pefjr]

This "Right to Bear Arms" has come down to an individual right that is weighing on society's right to be safe and secure from arms. This is explained to me by foreign friends that tell me, "You Americans have too many rights". So when this problem is finally addressed by responsible gov't. then something will be done to protect Societie's rights to be free of guns. How many do you know own guns for the sole reason to protect themselves, and/or their family. If they didn't have to worry about their families then no need for a gun. Those of you that argued Health Care by looking at the success of our neighbor Canada, can argue Gun Control by looking at Britain, Japan, Australia, and others I'm sure.

[RodSBT]

[QUOTE=bljones;2570345]But the weapon enhances productivity. it's much harder to take out innocent bystanders and multiple former fellow employees with a Louisville Slugger, for example.


A bunch of murder is bad, but a little bit of murder is OK?

[htom]

I hold some hope that one day you will make an informed comment

The Samurai, Mountie, and the Cowboy (http://www.amazon.com/Samurai-Mountie-Cowboy-Controls-Democracies/dp/0879757566), David Kopel. He describes in lawyerly detail the firearms laws, firearms culture, and homicides in a half-dozen countries in detail (and more with generalities), and explains the difficulty in making cross-country comparisons. People don't count deaths the same (although those descended from the British are closer than some of the others; for example, what most here would call a double murder and suicide in some cultures would be called a triple suicide, or a suicide and two natural deaths, and counted as such.)

The USA is an incredibly violent democracy. We kill more, both in absolute numbers, and at a higher rate per 100k population, in the USA, with both edged weapons (knives, axes, chain saws, ...) and with "natural weapons" (hands, feet, teeth, ...) than those people in Great Britain do with all weapons of every sort. (this may not be true now, I haven't looked all the number up recently; it was true for the period 1960-1995, with a few rare years where the rates matched.)

[PeterSibley]

But the weapon enhances productivity. it's much harder to take out innocent bystanders and multiple former fellow employees with a Louisville Slugger, for example.


I think the genie is too far out of the bottle in the United States to enact any sort of successful firearm control legislation, so i propose the opposite tack- mandatory open carry legislation. Every citizen over the age of 13 must carry a weapon. If everyone is armed, then everyone is less likely to pull their own weapon.
Strangely enough, this idea appeals to those who argue that freedom is the best reason to carry a weapon, that carrying a weapon is a right... but if it is a requirement, doesn't that mean that one is now LESS free?

I like your logic ..legislating that every adult MUST carry an automatic weapon would then mean the lovers of freedom would refuse to comply and walk the streets empty handed while wimpish liberals would wander around in an embarrassed fashion with an Uzi ?:D

[Bob Adams]

Just stopping by, hey Mr 41, did you check out the link I gave about the ineffectiveness of your buyback and bans? I guess not. Here another.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/buyback-has-no-effect-on-murder-rate/2006/10/23/1161455665717.html

I'll post another later...Bye now!

[stevebaby]

Just stopping by, hey Mr 41, did you check out the link I gave about the ineffectiveness of your buyback and bans? I guess not. Here another.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/buyback-has-no-effect-on-murder-rate/2006/10/23/1161455665717.html

I'll post another later...Bye now!"Dr Baker and her co-author, Samara McPhedran, declared their membership of gun groups in the article, ".
Unbiased?

[John Smith]

I'd really love to see an unbiased study of how war with guns makes the gas cheaper when I fill up.

You're not alone.

[htom]

"Dr Baker and her co-author, Samara McPhedran, declared their membership of gun groups in the article, ".
Unbiased?

Well, if they'd been members of anti-gun organizations and not declared that, others would claim that they were biased. Or if they had, for that matter. Disclosing says one thing, concealing says another. What is being disclosed and concealed says a third thing. You can google their names and find the complete paper on-line and read it for yourself. Bring your stat calculator.

(I -hate- stat.)

[The Bigfella]

Just stopping by, hey Mr 41, did you check out the link I gave about the ineffectiveness of your buyback and bans? I guess not. Here another.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/buyback-has-no-effect-on-murder-rate/2006/10/23/1161455665717.html

I'll post another later...Bye now!

Yep, that graph I posted earlier showed the gun murder rate was already dropping prior to the new laws.

What bans were they again? Oh dear, are the rifles in my gun safe banned? Nope. What on earth are you on about?

Do you really believe guns are banned here?

btw... checked the data I posted to see how low the gun murder rate here is now.... with the benefit of another four years data over that dated study? Nah, didn't think so. Pity.

[bljones]

[QUOTE=bljones;2570345]But the weapon enhances productivity. it's much harder to take out innocent bystanders and multiple former fellow employees with a Louisville Slugger, for example.


A bunch of murder is bad, but a little bit of murder is OK?Well, THAT was a stunning leap of logic. No, I'm pretty sure that less death is always better than more death, unless of course you are a megalomaniacal dictator determined to make it into the top five historical dispicable asshats category.

We have all heard that guns don't kill people, people kill people. This is true. Guns simply allow one person to kill more people quickly and economically. That is the whole bloody point of them, and that was my point in the post quoted above.

[The Bigfella]

I really wonder about this defeatist attitude I keep seeing from people in the US. The "there's all these weapons out there in the wrong hands so there's no point" sort of stuff.

Baloney. If you have a free and decent society, you will do something about it and fix it. It really isn't that hard.

Take a look at your prison population to start with. Why are they there?

What programs have you got to prevent the next generation from ending up there too? In greater numbers.

Start with a clean slate. Do you need to legalise and manage drugs, for example? Do you need to demand effective policing of guns in the wrong hands? What do you need to do so that people don't live in fear?.... and if you think I'm joking on that one - tell me again why it is that so many Americans think they need a gun to protect themselves and their family?

Guns in this country aren't for protection, they are for sport.

[The Bigfella]

A guy who did this ... well, the GUN saved him some time ...

He was going to kill them EITHER way ... :(

I'm not so convinced as you about that.

That 140lb runt turned into a Rambo in his own mind when he got the gun. Without the gun, he might not have been so cock-sure about it all.

He might have, he might not. The evidence from other countries tends to suggest he might not.

Bear in mind that he was fine taking on two people - both corrections officers - when he had a gun. A certain corrections officer I knew, tiny wee thing... could bring down any man in a flash... provided he didn't drill her with a bullet from a distance. Knife? No problem.

[ishmael]

The world's image of the US as gun happy, toting pardners comes from those Westerns, I think. We don't, not usually. I don't have a license, I don't know anyone who does. Kevin, the across the road neighbor, came over the first year and asked if he could hunt deer on my land. Sure, just remember where this house is. "I will." I believed him. Can I have one of the backstraps? "I've heard they are good."

But this image is wrong. I keep a shotgun primed. What sensible man dosen't?

[The Bigfella]

The world's image of the US as gun happy, toting pardners comes from those Westerns, I think. We don't, not usually. I don't have a license, I don't know anyone who does. Kevin, the across the road neighbor, came over the first year and asked if he could hunt deer on my land. Sure, just remember where this house is. "I will." I believed him. Can I have one of the backstraps? "I've heard they are good."

But this image is wrong. I keep a shotgun primed. What sensible man dosen't?

Oh look.... a "kick me" post

[PeterSibley]

I keep a shotgun primed. What sensible man dosen't?

I love humour , even bilge humour !:D

[Ron Williamson]

Apparently,I'm not sensible.
R

[Bob Adams]

I really wonder about this defeatist attitude I keep seeing from people in the US. The "there's all these weapons out there in the wrong hands so there's no point" sort of stuff.

Baloney. If you have a free and decent society, you will do something about it and fix it. It really isn't that hard.

Take a look at your prison population to start with. Why are they there?

What programs have you got to prevent the next generation from ending up there too? In greater numbers.

Start with a clean slate. Do you need to legalise and manage drugs, for example? Do you need to demand effective policing of guns in the wrong hands? What do you need to do so that people don't live in fear?.... and if you think I'm joking on that one - tell me again why it is that so many Americans think they need a gun to protect themselves and their family?

Guns in this country aren't for protection, they are for sport.

"Effective policing of guns in the wrong hands" OK. Just how do you propose this. It's ALREADY illegal for them to be in the wrong hands. Seems criminals just don't show up at the station to turn in their guns. There are minimum sentancing policies in place for crimes committed with guns, but there is just too much profit in the drug trade, and most of our shootings involve the drug trade somehow. BTW, how do you handle the drug problem down there? Don't have that problem either?

Edited to add:
I have had 2 night time home invasions. The sound of a round being chambered sent them running both times. Now tell me again how I don't need a gun to defend my family. And before you say it, yes I want to move to a better area, just can't right now.

[Dumah]

Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security shall not have, nor do they deserve, either one.........................Thomas Jefferson :eek: :o

[stevebaby]

Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security shall not have, nor do they deserve, either one.........................Thomas Jefferson :eek: :oBenjamin Franklin actually.

[PeterSibley]

An interestingly convoluted bit of rhetoric .

[The Bigfella]

Wrong too.

As for policing weapons on the street, its easy. Sniffer dogs. Dog smells gun oil, it sits. Cop deals with the issue.

[TomF]

Apparently,I'm not sensible.
RInsensible, insensitive, nonsensical, the list goes on... :D

Ish, your comment is incredibly context-specific.

[Bob Adams]

Wrong too.

As for policing weapons on the street, its easy. Sniffer dogs. Dog smells gun oil, it sits. Cop deals with the issue.

Gee, you have all the answers. What about the drug thing?

[The Bigfella]

Yeah - we've got a bit of a drug problem... but funny thing, very little shooting going on around it. Things like injecting rooms... with medical supervision on premises have helped.

What's your answer to it all Bob? What's your fix?

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

I don't Need a gun. I wish more Americans were like me.

[Phillip Allen]

It might.

My question would be: does it matter? Do you believe one's personality should be part of whether or not one should own a gun?

think...Squeaky Frome

[RodSBT]

[QUOTE=RodSBT;2570387]Well, THAT was a stunning leap of logic. No, I'm pretty sure that less death is always better than more death, unless of course you are a megalomaniacal dictator determined to make it into the top five historical dispicable asshats category.

We have all heard that guns don't kill people, people kill people. This is true. Guns simply allow one person to kill more people quickly and economically. That is the whole bloody point of them, and that was my point in the post quoted above.

Then we better ban petrol because a nut case with a couple gallons of gas and a cigarette lighter could murder a whole night clubs' worth of customers or an elementary school full of children for less than 5 bucks out of pocket. More efficient than an AK. (actually a guy did this on the east coast a number of years ago I think he just used a cig. lighter. Set fire to the only entrance to a night club and lots of people died.)

And lets not forget Rwanda. Those Hutus were pretty effective with machetes. What was the count, 600K?

Criminals will always find a way to commit murder. You can outlaw everything that shoots, stabs, cuts, pummels etc. etc. and it still won't be enough. They will find a way. Deal with the person and you will solve the problem more effectively. Focus on the tool and you will only disarm the moral, law abiding citizens turning them into victims.

[The Bigfella]

Then we better ban petrol because a nut case with a couple gallons of gas and a cigarette lighter could murder a whole night clubs' worth of customers or an elementary school full of children for less than 5 bucks out of pocket. More efficient than an AK. (actually a guy did this on the east coast a number of years ago I think he just used a cig. lighter. Set fire to the only entrance to a night club and lots of people died.)

And lets not forget Rwanda. Those Hutus were pretty effective with machetes. What was the count, 600K?

Criminals will always find a way to commit murder. You can outlaw everything that shoots, stabs, cuts, pummels etc. etc. and it still won't be enough. They will find a way. Deal with the person and you will solve the problem more effectively. Focus on the tool and you will only disarm the moral, law abiding citizens turning them into victims.

Funny thing you know, it didn't work out like that in Australia, but then, being rational about this issue isn't to be expected, is it?

[Phillip Allen]

stop imitating lj...Ian

[TomF]

Criminals will always find a way to commit murder, yes.

But consistently, in all societies, the person you're most likely to be murdered by is your spouse - not a criminal. True. And if that person's gone temporarily loony during an argument, they're simply going to come at you with what comes to hand.

How reliably lethal that object is in the hands of an angry, typically not highly weapons-trained individual, is going to have a whole lot to do with the lethality of the argument's outcome. While I'm certain that Chuck could off me with a post-it note, my wife couldn't. She'd be more effective with a paring knife, but the nature of the weapon and how close she'd need to be to off me argues that I could prolly get it out of her hand and only need sutures. It would be different were she holding a 12 gauge - I could very easily be dead before either of us realized she was really about to pull the trigger.

This nice thought experiment actually plays out very closely to what the stats show us occurs regarding murder rates in households which contain firearms, and households which don't. Here in Canada, you're 6X more likely to be murdered if you have a firearm in the house. Significantly more likely to die from suicide too, though I've forgotten the stat. The lethality of the available weapon has a significant and direct correlation to the lethality of the outcome, when you're dealing with crimes of passion or despair.

Does this mean that the very few of you guys who are living in battle-pocked druggie-crime-zone burnt out post-apocalyptic subdivisions in middle America should give up your guns? I've never said so.

But for the vast majority of us, be aware that the greatest danger to your life and limb is your significant other. (Paul probably now knows this ;)) And the lethality of the toys you keep for your hobbies has a statistical relationship to your murder risk. If you live in the kind of neighbourhoods most of us do, the incremental risk to your life from your spouse taking a shot at you in a truly nasty argument far outweighs the incremental safety you've obtained from having that gun available to protect you and yours from an armed intruder.

[Paul Pless]

Funny thing you know, it didn't work out like that in Australia, but then, being rational about this issue isn't to be expected, is it?Rational huh?

Funny thing is, psychotic violence like the the Port Arthur Massacre is so rare in Australia that it shows the irrationality of your society to go to the reactionary lengths you did with your gun control legislation.

Look to England to see how it worked out in a society that has a greater problem with cultural violence. First they banned guns, then large knives, then small knives, then most recently glass beer flagons... what's gonna be next they gonna ban rocks?

[TerryLL]

... but then, being rational about this issue isn't to be expected, is it?


I think you're beginning to see the problem we face here.

[Phillip Allen]

I'm a bachalor...

[TomF]

I'm a bachalor...You're now a bachelor. :D

Tell me again about the stability of your ex-partners, Phil. Did you know you were taking your life in your hands?

[pefjr]

But this image is wrong. I keep a shotgun primed. What sensible man doesn't?Interesting that your post drew 4 responses, none from this country where I believe your statement is directed. One other maybe, Joe says he doesn't need a gun. But a large number of Americans feel that need for protection. True stories like "In Cold Blood" as an example, have us terrified at the thought of being unarmed. I believe there is a better way and all we Americans have to do is look at other countrys and their success at controlling guns.

[TerryLL]

Interesting that your post drew 4 responses, none from this country where I believe your statement is directed. One other maybe, Joe says he doesn't need a gun. But a large number of Americans feel that need for protection. True stories like "In Cold Blood" as an example, have us terrified at the thought of being unarmed. I believe there is a better way and all we Americans have to do is look at other countrys and their success at controlling guns.

You're beginning to sound like a first class Left winger. Has there been a sea change? One can hope.

[Phillip Allen]

You're now a bachelor. :D

Tell me again about the stability of your ex-partners, Phil. Did you know you were taking your life in your hands?

marriage is in complete remission

[Bobby of Tulsa]

Interesting that your post drew 4 responses, none from this country where I believe your statement is directed. One other maybe, Joe says he doesn't need a gun. But a large number of Americans feel that need for protection. True stories like "In Cold Blood" as an example, have us terrified at the thought of being unarmed. I believe there is a better way and all we Americans have to do is look at other countrys and their success at controlling guns.

If you are asleep in bed and some one wakes you up with a gun in your face, what do you do? If you go for your gun bam, your dead. If I hear someone is in the area then I can be prepared. Kinda double edge sword. :(

[pefjr]

You're beginning to sound like a first class Left winger. Has there been a sea change? One can hope.On this issue, I could be labeled a radical lefty. On the political scene you and I would cross paths on many issues. Labels are for toe liners.

[TomF]

marriage is in complete remissionThen you've prolly got a safe hobby, if you can keep the black dog away.

Me? I'd love to learn to shoot well. There's exceptional hunting for moose and bear 'round here, and some fairly decent sized deer. The upland bird and waterfowl shooting is also pretty renowned. And I'd love to dabble in black-powder guns, for the romance and history of it.

But my family had some serious history with that black dog a couple of decades ago, and it would be foolish and irresponsible of me to pretend it might never come back.

[Phillip Allen]

Then you've prolly got a safe hobby, if you can keep the black dog away.

Me? I'd love to learn to shoot well. There's exceptional hunting for moose and bear 'round here, and some fairly decent sized deer. The upland bird and waterfowl shooting is also pretty renowned. And I'd love to dabble in black-powder guns, for the romance and history of it.

But my family's got some serious history with that black dog, and it would be foolish and irresponsible of me to pretend it might never come back.

after some crazy event (I forget what) my grown daughter told me that it would never have occured to her that guns could be used to shoot people...that is how I raised my kids.

it is easy enough to find some black powder event near yourself (I'd bet) and you can go and observe and talk to the participants...it's a good place to start...it generally makes for a fun Saturday afternoon

if you want I"ll try to hunt one up for ya...Thorn would be a good one to ask too

[Phillip Allen]

Here's a start, Tom

http://www.angelfire.com/ns/janowitz/black_powder.htm

[RodSBT]

Funny thing you know, it didn't work out like that in Australia, but then, being rational about this issue isn't to be expected, is it?

And I can show you countries with even stricter gun laws than yours that have murder rates much higher than we have.

What about Switzerland? The gov issues every male 18 and older an assault rifle and ammo. Practically every house hold has a weapon. Where are the bodies littering the streets?

It has to do with the moral fiber of the society, not the weapons.

[Phillip Allen]

On this issue, I could be labeled a radical lefty. On the political scene you and I would cross paths on many issues. Labels are for toe liners.

I believe that would be "line toers"

[Ian McColgin]

You can line my toes with any lable you like.

[The Bigfella]

Rational huh?

Funny thing is, psychotic violence like the the Port Arthur Massacre is so rare in Australia that it shows the irrationality of your society to go to the reactionary lengths you did with your gun control legislation.

Look to England to see how it worked out in a society that has a greater problem with cultural violence. First they banned guns, then large knives, then small knives, then most recently glass beer flagons... what's gonna be next they gonna ban rocks?

They weren't so rare back then. I've read the handwritten diaries of two who did semi-auto shoot-ups in Melbourne. Google Queen St Massacre and Hoddle St Massacre for details on those two. I saw the crime scene photos and weapons for both too.

14 years on, most shooters I know are comfortable with what you call reactionary, what I call sane, changes to our gun safety regime. This whole "ban rocks" thing is a bit silly, isn't it Paul?

As was just pointed out, it isn't gang violence in the main in the US, the main cause of the 90 dead in the US today, apart from suicide, is arguments. Someone snaps, out comes the gun, and bang. WRT suicides, its the spur of the moment cases that can do it quick and efficiently with a gun, whereas if it wasn't available, they could well seek help.

[TomF]

Realistically, I've too many hobbies I'd want to try out as it is, Phil, though thanks for the kind offer. It would make for a very fun afternoon outing, but I'm afraid I would develop more of an appetite than I'd then be able or willing to satisfy.

[The Bigfella]

And I can show you countries with even stricter gun laws than yours that have murder rates much higher than we have.

What about Switzerland? The gov issues every male 18 and older an assault rifle and ammo. Practically every house hold has a weapon. Where are the bodies littering the streets?

It has to do with the moral fiber of the society, not the weapons.

I seem to recall central storage of the weapons there

[Phillip Allen]

Oh come on Tom...one little "hit" won't hurt ya :)

[Bobby of Tulsa]

Oh come on Tom...one little "hit" won't hurt ya :) Dont listen to him Tom. :)

[TomF]

Oh come on Tom...one little "hit" won't hurt ya :)That's what my Dad said about sailboats too. See where that's got me? :D

Actually, I might look up an event nearby. There's probably an event or three that happen out at King's Landing, a historical re-enactment village about 20 minutes away. I love that place - a bunch of 18th and 19th century buildings which were re-located there from the parts of the Saint John river which were later flooded when a power dam was built.

[Phillip Allen]

That's it, Tom...that's it. Feels good don't it? Feel the vibes...

[TomF]

That's it, Tom...that's it. Feels good don't it? Feel the vibes...ooohhh, the colours.

[Phillip Allen]

:).

[htom]

I seem to recall central storage of the weapons there

Wikipedia has details (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland), which allow for full auto storage at home, when in the militia, and the same weapon, auto-feed disabled, after completion of militia service. There is a political pressure for the Swiss to conform to the rest of the EU's policies on firearms but home storage is still going to be allowed, although a central registry may be created. link (http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/politics/Parliament_opposes_ban_on_storing_arms_at_home.htm l?cid=982330)

[paladin]

I travelled thru Switzerland and numerous other European countries, UK and Ireland included, with a semi auto weapon. I had a standard passport, (they got my black one a few years on) and a letter from the U.S. Embassy that I was transporting a weapon and 40 rounds of 9mm ammo. Once in a while they would ask to see the weapon, more often the ammo and magazines, 3 times counted the ammo, and that was it. Even NY asked me where I was going and would I be staying in the state....they were more upset than anyone.

[Captain Blight]

It has to do with the moral fiber of the society, not the weapons.
Okay, for the purposes of discussion, then, how do we improve the 'moral fiber of society' without enacting legislation to dictate your vision of moral behavior? Hey, man, you stated it; I assume you have a solution clawing the door wanting to get out.

[Bob Adams]

As was just pointed out, it isn't gang violence in the main in the US, the main cause of the 90 dead in the US today, apart from suicide, is arguments.

Where the hell was that pointed out? All I can tell you is in Baltimore, fully 90% of the 200+ murders per year are drug related. Drugs are mainly distributed by gangs. Damn shame the innocents sometimes get caught up in it.

[Paul Pless]

. . .without enacting legislation. . . why that restriction?

[TomF]

Where the hell was that pointed out? All I can tell you is in Baltimore, fully 90% of the 200+ murders per year are drug related. Drugs are mainly distributed by gangs. Damn shame the innocents sometimes get caught up in it.Post #207.

In Canada, and from what folks here have said in the US too, most drug related violence is criminal-on-criminal. If you're not in the drug trade or living in the neighbourhoods where it is concentrated, you're not at a significant murder risk from that element.

For the rest of us, statistically our biggest danger is our spouse. Not an armed burglar, not a crazed jihadist, not a carjacker. And as such, our murder risk is significantly reduced when our houses don't contain firearms. Stats.

[pefjr]

our murder risk is significantly reduced when our houses don't contain firearms. Stats.or a spouse. Maybe I should uh...............

[TomF]

It's all about risk management. ;)

[Bob Adams]

Post #207.

In Canada, and from what folks here have said in the US too, most drug related violence is criminal-on-criminal. If you're not in the drug trade or living in the neighbourhoods where it is concentrated, you're not at a significant murder risk from that element.

For the rest of us, statistically our biggest danger is our spouse. Not an armed burglar, not a crazed jihadist, not a carjacker. And as such, our murder risk is significantly reduced when our houses don't contain firearms. Stats.

OK, sorry I missed that. Unfortunately, there is enough of this going on that it skews the numbers for the whole country. Makes us sound like the wild west was still happening. (that was largely a myth, BTW)

[PeterSibley]

Post 207 is the most useful on this thread .Thanks Tom ,well explained .

[Paul Pless]

Post 207 is the most useful on this thread .Thanks Tom ,well explained .Why, do you and your wife argue often?

[TerryLL]

Why, do you and your wife argue often?


All couples argue from time to time, some more than others, some with more violence than others. Dishes get thrown, people get slapped, punched, kicked. If a gun is near at hand, someone is likely to pick it up.

I think that was Tom's point. And an excellent point it is.

[bljones]

[QUOTE=bljones;2570563]

Then we better ban petrol because a nut case with a couple gallons of gas and a cigarette lighter could murder a whole night clubs' worth of customers or an elementary school full of children for less than 5 bucks out of pocket. More efficient than an AK. (actually a guy did this on the east coast a number of years ago I think he just used a cig. lighter. Set fire to the only entrance to a night club and lots of people died.)

And lets not forget Rwanda. Those Hutus were pretty effective with machetes. What was the count, 600K?

Criminals will always find a way to commit murder. You can outlaw everything that shoots, stabs, cuts, pummels etc. etc. and it still won't be enough. They will find a way. Deal with the person and you will solve the problem more effectively. Focus on the tool and you will only disarm the moral, law abiding citizens turning them into victims.
Great googly moogly, wipe the foam of misdirected indignation from your pursed lips and re-read what I actually wrote, not what you interpreted. I have not advocated banning anything. In fact, just the opposite.

[RodSBT]

[QUOTE=RodSBT;2571020]
Great googly moogly, wipe the foam of misdirected indignation from your pursed lips and re-read what I actually wrote, not what you interpreted. I have not advocated banning anything. In fact, just the opposite.

Mouth has been swamped. I have a hard time reading people on this forum at times because of the negative sarcasm and out right nastiness at times and I assumed you were an anti from what I thought was, well, more sarcasm. If not, my apologies. (I have let myself get a bit testy at times and may let it slip a bit.)

[RodSBT]

Okay, for the purposes of discussion, then, how do we improve the 'moral fiber of society' without enacting legislation to dictate your vision of moral behavior? Hey, man, you stated it; I assume you have a solution clawing the door wanting to get out.

If you don't know what good morals are, me explaining it won't help.

[boylesboats]

I don't Need a gun. I wish more Americans were like me.

Joe, Joe, Joe..:D.. Ya crack me up...
If more Americans were like me... we all will get along.. but who would want that.. naaaa just myself is enuff...

I own guns, but I don't flaunt 'em...

[Phillip Allen]

Joe, Joe, Joe..:D.. Ya crack me up...
If more Americans were like me... we all will get along.. but who would want that.. naaaa just myself is enuff...

I own guns, but I don't flaunt 'em...

Joe owns muscles and he DOES flaunt'em

[boylesboats]

Joe owns muscles and he DOES flaunt'em

:D agree..
I don't need muscles..

[Bob Adams]

Why, do you and your wife argue often?

Probably only when he tosses his lady's favorite brtiches in the fire:p

[Captain Blight]

If you don't know what good morals are, me explaining it won't help.
Doesn 't even come close to answering my question. Read it again.