An Actual True Design question

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

OK here it goes I have been thinking since I have such a large barn and all the tools necessary to build a proper boat. You know lofting with ribs and good wood and lots of time. I have learned so much here I feel that a proper true wooden sail boat is a challenge I should take on in the next year or so. I'm talking a real art project not a plywood bolger (no offense ). Here are some of my requirements my bay door to the barn is 9ft high x 12ft wide the length is no problem 3,500 sq. ft of work space. I think I would prefer a trailer sailor but then again I have a mooring place in Garrison so a fix keel might be nice. I'm tossed between a nice cruiser with an elegant cabin (Interiors are very important to me) something my wife and daughter and dogs could spend some time or vacation in. I also think if I'm gonna tackle such a structure in time were talking years here and $$$ why not go all out and build something blue water able, I have tremendous wander lust. What do you all think and of course photo's please

[Meerkat]

Well, give us a clue! What sort of boats appeal to you? Double-ender? One mast or 2? Gaff/marconi/cat? Comfort or speed? How much maintenence do you want to cope with?

Trailer sailing vs. one that lives on a mooring should make a difference too. Carvel or trad. lapstrake won't make for a good trailer sailer so it's said.

Any desire to winter in Florida? Get a trailer sailor! Ditto for Great Lakes, etc. etc. etc.

Blue water - long crossings or just a capable dry boat? Live aboard for a weekend or a month?

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

OK we got a dialog going on here cool. OK preferably Single mast with a Jib or something I could single hand. I'm not a big fan of a ketch since I'm not crazy about a mast and sail over the back end of my cockpit. I absolutely LOVE old catboats but there not much for blue water or any extended cruising - or are they ?? I have always liked the look of a Gaff so looks are more important to me than speed if I wanted speed I could BUY a glass boat cheeper and faster. Remember I want art I want a floating piece of sculpture. I want a cabin that I can relax in with a head and galley and sleeping accommodations for at least 4. It wont be a live aboard but if I wanted to take a 3 week sail with my wife and kid it would be pleasant. The main problem with a keel boat is the Hudson freezes so she would have to be taken out and stored in the winter which seems to be waste since I have indoor storage in my barn. I guess what I'm looking for is a Gaff Rigged Single hand Trailer Sailor that's Blue water capable or at least off shore with short live aboard capability. That I could build single handed. There how that smile.gif Oh and she has to be beautiful

[Venchka]

And so begins the seemingly interminable (sp?) (very long) list of design parameters.

Walk by any decent sized marina (even ones on smallish lakes) and count the number of Blue Water Capable Full On Round-the-World cruising yachts that spend their lives as infrequent daysailors. It is MOST of them.

Back to Reality: A boat on the BIG end of the trailor scale can summer on a mooring and then winter back in the barn where you gave it birth. Of course the trailor and tow vehicle must be sized to fit the boat. More $$$$ but manageable. The same maximum trailor sailor should be capable of extended coastwise cruising. That is where all of the good places to visit are anyway. Use the trailor to hop around to the good cruising grounds. North America has a virtually inexhaustable supply at any season of the year.

One such boat comes to mind, but the list is quite long, Iain Oughtred's Grey Seal.

http://www.independenceboatworks.com/GreySeal.htm

The Grey Seal is at the BIG end of the trailor scale and the ENTRY end of the long distance cruising scale. The builder, John, at the site listed above has the molds and plank patterns left over from the boat he built a few years back. He could build the bare hull and you could trail it home and finish it. That way you don't have any wasted effort creating things that don't actually go in the boat.

One point of view to kick around.

I'm only using a professional builder as an example. I did see the molds and patterns.

Wayne
30N, 90W

[Meerkat]

Also the "Wee Seal" - see the pics in Design/Plans that I posted - Wee Seal "Opus" (pics!) Good for single-handed or a couple. 18'

Eun Mara, another Oughtred design.

Hey, you say, these are all glued plywood lapstrake! Well, if you want a trailer sailor, it's a good option. It makes a pretty, dry boat. Carvel and trad. lapstrake will leak like a sieve until they "take up".

Selway-Fisher has plans for a 24' trailer sailor called the "Beaumaris" that is apparantly popular. This one is S&G I think.

Golant Gaffer is a really nice boat (I have a set of plans for sale <ahem>.) 20' gaff cutter with a private head compartment - strip planked. Great for a couple - with room for 2 more in the cockpit.

John Welsford has a 20' "Penguin" with a double bunk, 2 quarter berths and a semi-private head. Ply plank over stringer. Gaff cutter/sloop/yawl. Almost standing headroom.

Speaking of # of berths - build for the most expected use, not the maximum use. Why haul around 2-3 extra bunks that only get used once in awhile when that many people want to go sailing? They just collect junk I hear. Better to pitch a tent over the cockpit for the occassional guests.

[Wiley Baggins]

Joe,

It's obviously early days in this process, but I think that you're painting yourself into two corners (and most decisions are about painting yourself into the corner that is hoefully the right decision).

Corner No. 1



…preferably Single mast with a Jib or something I could single hand.

Hudson freezes so she would have to be taken out and stored in the winter which seems to be waste since I have indoor storage in my barn.

I guess what I'm looking for is a Gaff Rigged Single hand Trailer Sailor that's Blue water capable or at least off shore with short live aboard capability. That I could build single handed.

- Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )Corner No. 2


…a nice cruiser with an elegant cabin (Interiors are very important to me) something my wife and daughter and dogs could spend some time or vacation in.

I want a cabin that I can relax in with a head and galley and sleeping accommodations for at least 4.

- Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )I think you have a WEEKENDER somewhere in your fleet, so that can meet the criteria identified in Corner No. 1

If you have the desire (I take it on faith that you have the skill, the drive to develop new skills on an as-needed basis, the determination, and the means), then I say go for Corner No. 2. It needn't be some 50'+ Sparkmen&Stephens' (or Laurent Giles, or Fife, or Mylne, or…) gold-plater, but I don't envision the qualities you seek in terms of accommodations being met by a "trailer-sailer."

Thoughts?

[Venchka]

And the beat goes on.............

Looks are one thing, and I agree that most people rely on how a boat "touches" them.

On the other hand, a divided rig has many advantages in terms of safety, ease of handling, etc. Look at the boats real people use for extended cruising. I don't understand why Iain O. hasn't offered a version of Eun Mara's rig for the Seals.

Adding to the list: Karl Stambaugh at CMD has any number of shallow draft capable designs.

http://www.cmdboats.com/

Wayne
30N, 90W

[Larry P.]

Joe how about

http://nimbus.mysticseaport.org/imagestorage/pv00/pv0091-q.jpg

OR http://nimbus.mysticseaport.org/imagestorage/pv00/pv0065-q.jpg

What the heck I love this one.

http://www.georgebuehler.com/georgeimages/Alca%20lines.jpg

[ 10-18-2002, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Larry P. ]

[Meerkat]

Originally posted by Venchka:
<snip>
On the other hand, a divided rig has many advantages in terms of safety, ease of handling, etc. Look at the boats real people use for extended cruising. I don't understand why Iain O. hasn't offered a version of Eun Mara's rig for the Seals.
<snip>
Wayne
30N, 90WA yawl rig is said to have been drawn for the Wee Seal by Iain. Couple that with the keel as done by Dave Evraerts for his "Opus" and the modified interior (works great - I've been aboard!), and that's one very handy boat!

I agree that a yawl rig makes for a handier boat. At least with a yawl, the mast is aft the helmsman (regarding "don't like ketch" by Joe).

[Ian McColgin]

If your recreation really is the building, think about what others besides yourself might like.

If you're really interested in sailing, take a summer off from making stuff and get crewing for a variety of local good sailors. You need self-knowledge to make the right choise.

For most people, building something is such a major commitment that it would be a drag to do all that work for something you end up not using.

G'luck

[Wiley Baggins]

Ian makes a great point about sailing on a variety of boats/rigs if possible. I imagine that you will have to travel a couple of hours each way to do any big-boat sailing, and week night racing (again on big boats) may be somewhat impractical. You might find some weekend opportunities to crew on boats that are daysailing/overnighting/racing.

Also, the process of identifying "your boat" will most likely consume a lot of time in front of the woodstove this winter (and beyond, if you take Ian's advice). It's a pleasant diversion.

[cs]

Joe I just went through the decission process myself to arive at what I think is the perfect boat for me (see my other threads in this section). I ended up ordering the plans for the Mckie Roth Friendship. It has 2 berths and you could probably haul out at the end of the year and let it live in the water the rest of the time.

http://a7.cpimg.com/image/6B/B9/13520747-a215-020001AC-.jpg

Chad

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Thanks for the input guys, the idea of crewing might be a good idea. Larry P your first drawing looks close - I guess because it has some of my beloved catboat lines. But honestly from what I can see some of these choices you have come up with are kinda chinsy in the cabin aria and big in the cockpit aria. I'm looking to spend some extended time below. I guess I'm looking for something more like this in WOOD and I don't even know if she is capable of anything further than sheltered waters no island hopping on her. I realize I'm taking a big leap here coming from the Misc. section and treading waters here and your dealing with a guy with bigger eyes than his knowledge but make no mistake with me EVERYTHING I have ever done has been deemed impossible and I made it happen I learn everything I can about something this is the beginning of the curve so don't get discouraged with me I know I haven't yet smile.gif
http://images.yachtworld.com/9/2/6/926246_1.jpg
http://images.yachtworld.com/9/2/6/926246_3.jpg
Com-Pac Catboat (http://www.traditionalyachtsales.com/broker/br_listing_full_detail.jsp?company=traditionalyach tsales&url=&boat_id=926246&align=left&units=Feet&page=broker&currency=USD&access= Public&listing_id=37866&mls_true=&WebLogicSession=PbDPmpx6iNLvVyvEs1xrXoJQp2JjWpHlGo 0zTe77HsxI1nQqNkDR|2767478531453949812/170924118/6/7005/7005/7002/7002/7005/-1)

[ 10-18-2002, 11:38 PM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[LisaS]

Joe -

I think you need to build a nice Friendship sloop. This way, you see, I can come over and lend a hand and watch it come to life.

Lisa

[Mike Field]

Originally posted by Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ):
An actual true design questionHey Joe, is that as in "fair dinkum, on the up-and-up, real, dinky-di, honest, ridgy-didge, and genuine?" Or have I read too much into it? ... :D

That's a hell of a sheer on that Roth sloop, Chad.

And the little catboat that Leon's about to post looks pretty nice, too. . smile.gif

[ 10-19-2002, 05:49 AM: Message edited by: Mike Field ]

[Leon Steyns]

Joe,

First let me say that I firmly believe in the power that dreams and wishes can unleash. If you really want this to happen, I'm sure you'll be able to do it. And you sound very determined!
As others have stated before, there are many hundreds of plans that will (somehow) fit your requirements. Your decision won't be easy, since there is always another design around the corner.

I'll add one: the 22' Cape Cod Cat designed by Ted Brewer (see his website (http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/capecodcat.htm)). It is a true cat, seaworhty, but at almost three tons, it isn't really a trailer boat. You might want to contact Ted Brewer about different construction methods (for example stitch&glue) that could bring down the weight (and even create a stronger boat!). Let me add a few pictures:

http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/images/CCCQC.jpg
http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/images/capecodcat_sail_sm.gif http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/images/capecodcat_layout_sm.gif

Good luck on your decision!

Greets, Leon Steyns.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Leon, She looks Good - see my heart belongs to a cat. I love the extended comfy sailing off shore and the stability factor. I also like the repeated easy to build slogan smile.gif yea rite but its still nice to hear. Full on set of plans are $150 worth the investment for a look see and you can never have too many plans to Study by the woodburning stove smile.gif Ohh I just looked at the CHAPPIQUIDDICK WOW!! even bigger LOA---25'3" with its BEAM---12'0" it dead on fits through my barn door I may have to put some grease on the frame LOL:) even heavier too DISPLACEMENT---10,100 lbs YEHAAA

[ 10-19-2002, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[Wiley Baggins]

Joe,

Take a look at William Garden's 30' Cat-Ketch design. The design was featured in WB 35, and was also pictured in an article in WB 60 (she might also appear in the designer profile on William Garden (WB 166).

[Leon Steyns]

Joe,

I really do think building *any* boat is "easy to build", but the time, effort and materials needed just explode exponentially with every foot lenght added... smile.gif

If I was in your position (love to have a barn your size!), I'd go for a re-designed hull for the cold molded or strip plank building method. It may be more expensive than the stock plan price, but you'll get a lighter and stronger boat with a better (looking) hull shape (I know; personal opinion... smile.gif

Good luck on your project! Please keep us posted of you decision.

Greets, Leon Steyns.

[A. Mason]

Hi Joe, I would strongly suggest that you go check out some of the marinas in either your area or down in the New York area and get a hands-on idea of the actual amount of interior space in a "trailerable" or 20-foot +/- sailboat.

Since you expressed the interest in spending time below, you need to physically try out a few. Most do not have full headroom, and function more like a studio apartment, something like a small RV.

City Island, in the Bronx, used to be a good place to view and get onboard a variety of small sailboats. My father used to love to haunt the yards there.

Another good opportunity used to be the New York Boat Show held in January. I'm assuming they still hold that show. Don't let the fact that most of the boats will probably not be wood deter you.

You should try them out from the standpoint of length, width, and height, not the material they are made from. Seeing is believing - or not. If you're a big fellow like my father was, there were not very many small sailboats he could move around in comfortably.

Choosing a sailboat is very much like choosing a new car, or a comfortable lounge chair. The fit has to be "just right." On a side note, my father tried out a two-seater sportscar he really liked the looks of, but he was too big to fit behind the wheel. He bought an El Camino instead.

Another point, many small sailboats tend to have large cockpit and small minimal accommodations. There simply isn't enough overall space to have the best of both worlds. Small sailboats are meant for sailing, not living below deck.

For a number of years Al owned an 18-foot Sjekte [a double-ended open sailboat]. He designed and constructed a simple and removeable covering to turn the boat into a minimalist overnighter - tent camping on water.

So, in addition to doing some "test" sailing as a crew member on other people's small sailboats to determine what type of rigging you prefer based on some experience, check out the "for sale" small sailboats in your area to find out if what the interior space is like [that's of course in addition to doing the same thing on the boats you take a sail on.]

Many of the older small sailboats were designed for wood construction [of one type or another] and sometimes include information for more than one wood construction method. Over the years, these same designs have reappeared for "glass' construction, sometimes by the designer and sometimes by the builder.

Happy hunting!
Anita

[Larry P.]

Joe the last picture was more of a dream/joke she's a 63' double ended motorsailor with a schooner rig. The first one was Alerion III. Joe I'm doing some research on Gil Smith a builder of catboats from Long Islands South shore. The catboat pic that I posted before has been the only plans that I could find if I find more I'll let youy know.

[Wiley Baggins]

Joe,

When you get in from that frostbiting, I think you need to provide a progress report. You can't start this interesting a thread, and then abandon it. Enquiring minds want to know!

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Wiley, this is one of those things that's gonna require a lot of thought I'm just scratching the surface. I'm doing a lot of reading to see what will work for me. We all remember when we first got involved with boats how we start off knowing we know nothing, open to learning we progress into knowing some thinking we know more towards knowing all we need to know but craving more till finally we realize we knew nothing and the cycle starts all over again. I'm still in the first cycle.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Wiley Baggins:
[QB]Joe,

I guess what I'm looking for is a Gaff Rigged Single hand Trailer Sailor that's Blue water capable or at least off shore with short live aboard capability. That I could build single handed.

QB]Sounds exactly like a Glen-L Amigo, for which I received the plans a couple weeks ago and will start work on in a week or two more.
jim

[cdragon]

Joe, right this minute - go out or go on line - and buy yourself some of L. Francis' writings - the Compleat Cruiser etc. Light a fire one of these cold evenings (I think we are in for a real winter in these parts this year...) get yourself your preferred beverage-whether a touch of Goslings with some fresh squeezed lime (highly recommended) or a cup of tea or as-you-like, and dive in. You will be forever glad you did and I wouldn't be surprised if you had visions of perhaps a nice Rozinante dancing in your head all winter-a big project, but one of the sweetest boats ever IMHO. Or perhaps another one of his beautiful, simple and good sailing designs will strike you, but if you do start building a Rozinante, I promise to come by and help sometimes...

[JimD]

Joe, I gotta go to work now but wanted to explain why i went for the Amigo:

1) I narrowed the search to strip plank or cold mold because
a)they are trailerable because they don't have to be wet to be snug and strong, and
b) you can still get the elegant hull shapes of traditional planked boats.

2) Its comfortable extended off shore sailing for a couple, or 3 or 4 or a dog in a pinch, with standing headroom, galley, head and shower, etc .

3) I wanted ulitmate seaworthiness and the Amigo seems designed with this in mind from the get go.

a)I eliminated the Friendship because it is really a fishing boat turned recreation boat. The big, open cockpit required of fishermen bothered me. Friendships have been known to sink when badly pooped or knocked down. The Amigo has a small, high, self draining cockpit, generally considered important for seriously safe sailing.

4) I eliminated the Catboat because of the wide beam. They tend not to right themselves after a capsize, and a 20 foot cat is going to be about 10 feet at the beam. I also did not want to have to name my boat 'Extra Wide Load' and have that painted on her transom while towing her down the highway.

Lastly, I have built a Glen-L boat before and they have a lot to offer in terms of customer service and supplies.
later,
jimd

[Wiley Baggins]

Hey "Big Red," ;) I was getting a little Alden fix and came across a boat (not an Alden schooner) that you might want to add to the mix. In WB No. 32 there is an article on a builder named Roy Blaney. In that article, on page 38 there is a photo of a Crocker designed cutter, AQUILA coming out of the shop. Very catboat-like in its un-rigged state; its well thought of and 28' in length based on the information on the following page. Check your archives.