Kayak Oppertunity

[Kristian]

I have never kayaked before, but have lots of canoeing experiance. I'm interested in building a skin on frame kayak but I'm not sure what design to go with.

A friend at work is willing to give me his 1/4 to 1/2 finished single seat baidarka. Should I go with this or start something else from scratch?

I've heard that baidarka's are difficult kayaks to handle. I'm not affraid of learning up to it unless it's really over my head. Are they difficult compared to plastic and plywood kayaks or all kayaks in general?

[Todd Bradshaw]

Well, the price is hard to beat, but the word Baidarka is pretty generic. It's what the Russians called the kayaks being used by the Aleuts that they encountered and does not specifically refer to a particular design. It's also been used over the years as part or all of the name for numerous sea kayak designs of various materials. In a skin boat, it will usually get you a fairly narrow, multi-chined hull design with a small, round, ocean-style cockpit and an Aleut-style forked bow, rather than Greenland-style, but not always. Any idea who designed this particular boat or what it's dimensions are?

A skin boat will handle about the same as any other kayak of similar proportions made from other materials. Even among the original Aleut designs that really are genuine, single-seat Baidarkas, there are some pretty drastic differences in hull shapes and dimensions, so it's hard to lump their handling characteristics, stability, seaworthiness, etc. into one basket. In any case, it might not end-up being your favorite kayak design, but if it's free, it's probably worth doing and I wouldn't expect the design to be so extreme that you couldn't learn to paddle it.

[Ron Williamson]

All that Todd said,and...
Paddle everything that you can before you decide to build any kind of kayak from scratch.
R

[WWheeler]

I'd say that all kayaks have demand a higher skill level than canoes, not just baidarkas. But hey, if you getting something for free, go for it.

I have both canoe and kayak experience, canoeing in Ontario (Alongquin, Temagami, Georgian Bay) and ocean kayaking on the West Coast (Broken Is/Vancouver Is.)

I can say that I totally prefer canoeing. I prefer the paddling style, the posture, the way you stow your gear. For extended trips, there's far more space and access to the gear. It's less formal. It's easier to rig up a sail. You can quickly hop out and portage through the bush.

With kayaks, freedom of movement is reduced. Your legs are stuck below decks. Stowing the gear is a fussy and difficult. People on extended trips often have to lash stuff on the deck, which is a real pain.

Canoeing is good with a partner. I go with the wife and dog, we've had some great times together on a rough lake, or doing a white water.

Of course, kayaking is a west coast thing eh? Being out in the ocean, in large swells or breaking waves and wind, it's probably better to have a kayak, provided of course you know what you're doing. I guess this is what you're wondering about.

The really big advantage of a kayak is lower wind resistance. Canoes can get really blown around. Also, the kayak is decked so it won't ship water. On the other hand, all kayaks (not just baidarkas) are super tippy, and you need to be able to Eskimo roll. Solo trips are unsafe; three craft minimum are required for trips over big water. (If you bail out, two kayaks are needed to help you get back in your craft.) When you get tired on a long trip, you have to be careful you don't just lie down in the water.

Kayaking is becoming more popular here, but it's a kind of urban yuppy fad so far. You have to be fairly athletic and fit, which accounts for its popularity. (Also it's better than canoeing if you're single, it's easier to solo paddle.) However, I can see the advantages out on big water.

One suggestion would be to take a course, often they start in a swimming pool. You can learn to Eskimo roll (much harder than it looks.), and get a feel for it. If you build a kayak, you'll need to learn any way.

[ 09-12-2002, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: WWheeler ]

[Ian McColgin]

The better skin on frame builders essentially size the boat for the client. If this is a generic boat, you could end up with either a boat way too stabile for your size or way too unstabile for your skill and size.

Open water kayaking really does require the various bracing skills, especially the high brace where the boat is rolled right on her beam with 60+ degrees of heel. A plump boat (for your size) won't do that and will thus be impossible to turn or handle in wind and wave. It also won't be suitable for self-rescue (roll). An overly narrow boat for your size will just be too hot and too tricky for you to learn in or be comfortable in.

Skin boats do not have water tight bulkheads. Get fitted air bags for both bow and stern.

G'luck

[JimD]

maybe also keep an open mind as to the design of the cockpit and combing. Some of those so called traditional designs had a little round hole to stuff your legs into, neither particularly safe or comfortable. Easy to redesign that to suit your own needs.

[Bruce Hooke]

I would disagree with the statement that all kayaks require that you know how to eskimo roll -- most sea kayaks I have been around are way too wide to roll and if you tried you would just fall right out. Instead you learn to brace to prevent a roll.

HOWEVER, it's likely that this baidarka is a narrower kayak that is designed to be rolled. So that is something you would want to learn to use this boat, especially if you have in mind open water kayaking.

I personally prefer the action of canoing over the action of kayaking but I know a lot of people really like how close a kayak puts you to the water. Also, kayaks can handle much rougher conditions that canoes. Think about how the two developed - the canoe developed for transporting loads on lakes and rivers whereas the kayak developed for hunting in the open waters of the artic - so that gives you some idea what they are each best for. River kayaks are, I'm pretty sure, a relatively recent development designed to provide entertaining activity in whitewater that people with a more practical mind would have bypassed in days of old.

[Ian McColgin]

My own boat has the small cockpit, as has been popular with British influenced designs up to quite recently. Now even Derek Hutchins designes with a large opening.

Many have the opinion that small cockpits are dangerous either because they are hard to get into or hard to get out of. I fail to find any truth to either assertion.

I'm big (220#). I can come out in a heart beat. Wet entry is no harder than any other boat. It is a hair harder to get out against Grana's boarding ladder, but just a little, and I can't stand up in the cockpit as there's not enough space ahead of the seat before you hit the cockpit rim. A terrible loss for those who like to stand up.

The small cockpit certainly increases ultimate seaworthiness as your spray skirt is less likely to come undone in plunging surf, but modern neoprene skirts do close the gap here. There are only a few outfits that make spray skirts for greenland style cockpits - but one even makes a whole skirt/jacket/hood unit so you can really go all out nanook.

None the less, forget not the air bladders for bow and stern. No one has solved 'cleopatra's needle' solo.

Just learn even before paddeling:
- a nice quick wet exit.
- high and low braces.

Now learn to paddle a bit and learn various re-entries and assisted rescues that involve staying in the boat. This will also get you comfortable with staying upside down underwater in the boat - develop 30 seconds or so of inverted hang time.

Then roll.

Then add a harpoon rack and save the whales by harpooning a Norweegan.

[Todd Bradshaw]

If we leave out those short, really wide double-paddle boats with the 4' long cockpits (cases where it's really a stretch to even call it a kayak) and open, flatwater sprint kayaks, I don't believe there is really such a thing as a kayak being designed to be rolled or not to be rolled. Some certainly roll easier than others and some have much better (or better thought-out) internal bracing for the paddler, but most boats are rollable. Wider hulls, with more initial stability may be less prone to flipping in good conditions than narrower hulls, but may just as easily be more prone to flipping in rough water. In contrast, some of the boats which have limited initial stability (feel kind of tippy) have very high secondary stability (you can lean them way over before the boat will actually go over) and are more secure in rough water as they pitch less in waves.

One of my favorite tests for matching beginning kayaking students to a boat is to put them into one, have them lay the paddle down on the cockpit rim, close their eyes and just sit still for about 30 seconds. If they seem to be struggling or wiggling a lot to keep their balance, I put them in a different boat. It's not a particularly scientific test, but students seem to learn better if they are paddling a boat that allows them to rest comfortably between maneuvers and to sit calmly while you are demonstrating something or giving instruction. For touring paddlers, the same test may give them some indication of what their boat will be like when they want to stop and shoot a photo or dig around in the day hatch for the sunscreen or something to munch. It's worth trying if you're test-paddling kayaks.

With the current popularity of touring kayaks (sea kayaks that may or may not ever be used in salt water) I would guess that less than 20% of the paddlers know how to roll and fewer still can do it consistently in rough water. Even if you take kayaking classes, it's most often a progression from a basic class, through some sort of intermediate class and then on to one that seriously begins teaching rolling. After that one, if you practice long and hard, you may be a good roller in a year or two. It's one of the most foreign, disorienting activities that you will ever try to learn and it just takes a while to master.

Does this mean that the 80% or so of kayakers who can't roll are in grave danger? Not necessarily. It all depends upon what type of situations they put themselves in. The best roll is always going to be the one you never have to do.

It would be great if everybody could roll whenever needed as it's certainly the best and fastest way to get out of the water and back to paddling, but that's never going to happen. From what I've been able to tell, trying to teach beginning boaters to roll along with all the other basic boat handling skills in one class is largely a waste of time. They do much better in rolling class after they have developed some paddling and bracing skills, practiced them, and are generally pretty comfortable in their boats.

What should, on the other hand, be a serious part of every basic and intermediate kayaking class or self-instruction program are rescue techniques, including paddle-float self-rescues. They surely are nowhere near as good as a dependable roll, especially in bad conditions, but can save your life if you make the effort to learn them.

In this age of instant gratification and with all the "Extreme Sports" crap that permeates everything from soda commercials to game shows, many people seem to be forgetting that many sports have to be learned and practiced. The fact that someone owns a kayak doesn't necessarily mean that they are a kayaker or that they are capable of doing many of the things that kayakers do. If you buy a pair of skis and head for the nearest black diamond run without instruction or practice, you're probably going to get hurt. Kayaks are no different. Conversely, if you start slowly, practice and use your head as much as your muscles, a beginner can learn to handle even a high performance kayak and enjoy the learning process.

[ 09-12-2002, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

[brian.cunningham]

Look to find a kayak or sports shop near you.

I got to try out several kayaks at a "FREE paddlesport Day", really just a way for them to sell boats. But I got to try out a lot of differnet boats, and you need to find a place that will sell you supplies like a kayak PFD, not a regular PFD anyways. I even got an inverted escape lesson!

[Matt Middleton]

I'm curious- do you know what design your friend is building to? Like y'all, I'm interested in the skin-on-frame boats (partial to the Stimson Marine Spoondrifts :cool: ).

Also, don't be intimidated by how long it may or may not take you to learn to roll, brace, etc. My experience is that it wasn't that hard at all to learn. I took a kayaking class as an elective in college, and several of us completed a roll on our first try, and after spending a few days on the river had it down pretty good.

I would still agree with what Todd said about practicing for a while, enough so that your kayak skills become second nature.

But anyhow, my question: which design (if you know)?