Designer who best utilizes stitch-and-glue?

[Steve Paskey]

A serious question -- not the best overall designer in any medium, but the best designer of stitch-and-glue boats. I've renamed the thread -- I'm not asking about the best boats, so much as I am about the designer who best utilizes the method.

I've listed seven names that come to mind, but I'm clearly overlooking people who should be included. If I could change the list I would.

I realize that "best" is entirely subjective, and that the results of the poll are not "scientific" ... I'm just interested in knowing which stitch and glue designers people are most impressed by and why.

I'm inclined to go with Paul Fisher, given both the wide range of his sailing and rowing designs (including an S&G Adirondack guideboat!) and his willingness to do S&G boats with fairly complex shapes and a larger number of strakes (some have 7 or 8 strakes per side). I'd probably rank Sam Devlin a very close second. He'd be first, except that his larger designs and powerboats aren't of interest to me personally.

[switters]

Storer places in the top three in my book, but the list would have to be longer than allowed to get everyone's designer in.

Very hard to pick just one.

[JimConlin]

I'm never willing to answer 'best' questions as broad as this. Most of those designers have done boats that are 'pretty good' or better for some combination of builder, usage and owner. The only 'best' I can think of in the bunch is that the CLC boats are the best designs for being manufactured as kits of 6mm. okoume.
Aside from that, and 'which boat was best in a race/regatta?', I don't think the question can be broadly answered.

[Steve Paskey]

I'm never willing to answer 'best' questions as broad as this. Most of those designers have done boats that are 'pretty good' or better for some combination of builder, usage and owner. ... Aside from that, and 'which boat was best in a race/regatta?', I don't think the question can be broadly answered.

I guess what I'm looking for is not the best boats, but the best designer of stitch and glue boats overall ... taking into account things like aesthetics, technical issues, efficient use of materials, innovative ideas, etc.

For instance, anything else aside, I think CLC's "lapstitch" technique is just brilliant ... it gives the look of lapstrake, and avoids any need to tape the seams. (I built one of CLC's Skerrys a few years ago.)

And Switters is right -- Michael Storer should be included. As should Graham Byrnes of B&B Yacht Designs. Anyone else I'm missing?

[James McMullen]

CLC has probably gotten more people to build their own boat in their garage than anybody else. I don't necessarily personally like all of the designs, nor do I necessarily think that they always offer the very best design within any particular category, but I do think that their average kit for their average boat is a fantastic way for an amateur to get started. Lapstitch is definitely a brilliant adaptation of the original concept.

For more complicated boats including full-size cruisers, I think Devlin is tops in terms of utilizing the strengths of this particular technology to best effect. Bolger and Glen-l were experimenters who got some of the early stuff right, though they never brought it all to the level of maturity that more modern designs utilize, Michalak is mired in Bolger homage with over-simplified, and the Mertens design I am currently building has some fundamental design issues that I am having to solve on my own rather than having accurate scaled plans to work from.

[JimConlin]

I guess what I'm looking for is not the best boats, but the best designer of stitch and glue boats overall ... taking into account things like aesthetics, technical issues, efficient use of materials, innovative ideas, etc.

For instance, anything else aside, I think CLC's "lapstitch" technique is just brilliant ... it gives the look of lapstrake, and avoids any need to tape the seams. ...

From a manufacturing and marketing point of view, 'lapstitch' is a slick idea. It stays within CLC's limited manufacturing capabilities and produces a boat that's easy for an amateur to build and has appealing appearance. From an engineering point of view, cutting away half the thickness of the ply seriously weakens the joint and the boat. Its appeal depends on who you are, the kit mfr, the builder or the owner.

[Steve Paskey]

From a manufacturing and marketing point of view, 'lapstitch' is a slick idea. It stays within CLC's limited manufacturing capabilities and produces a boat that's easy for an amateur to build and has appealing appearance. From an engineering point of view, cutting away half the thickness of the ply seriously weakens the joint and the boat. Its appeal depends on who you are, the kit mfr, the builder or the owner.

I used to hang out on a small forum dedicated to Skerry owners and builders. Some of the guys there had used their boats often for years, and I've never heard of one of the lapstitch joints failing. And given the way epoxy is used on both sides of the joint, it's hard to imagine this being a problem unless someone did a really poor job of applying the epoxy in the first place. But then I haven't studied the engineering of the boat or the joints ... I'm saying this as someone who simply built one.

[Steve Paskey]

... and the Mertens design I am currently building has some fundamental design issues that I am having to solve on my own rather than having accurate scaled plans to work from.

Which design is that, Jim?

[Mike V.]

And Switters is right -- Michael Storer should be included. As should Graham Byrnes of B&B Yacht Designs. Anyone else I'm missing?

I would include John Welsford.

[James McMullen]

The Mertens design is a DE25 Long Cockpit with transom-hung power. . . and I have the suspicion it's the very first one ever of this exact model to be built.

I don't think that the lapstitch joint which is reinforced with proper fillets on either side of the joint is particularly weak. . . . . I've certainly never seen one of these joints fail. I doubt it's any weaker than a standard glued lapstrake joint as long as care is taken to completely fill the spaces in the joint.

http://www.clcboats.com/images/photos/shoptips/lapstitch/lapstitch-logo.jpg

[cprinos]

I think the differences in *builders* make it hard to really choose a "best".

I built a a CLC kayak more than a decade ago and having a book (The Kayak Shop) was a big plus for me at the time. Plus I called them several occasions and had questions answered by the designer himself (Chris K, not John H back then) which was also really nice. As great an experience as that was, my next build will be a sailboat and nothing in their catalog really excites me.

It's nice to have access to the designers and a building community on internet forums, that's a a great extra for those of use that have not built a lot of boats. The active forums for Graham's boats at B&B and at Jaques Mertens' bateau site are a really great design-specific resource.

One that I think deserves mention in Dudley Dix, he's got some nice (and fairly innovative) S&G boats.

[Tom Lathrop]

This poll is a bad idea. Without including all the current reasonably well known designers, it is seriously faulted. Besides, how many forumites have experience with many of the candidates, or even more than one.

[kenjamin]

Ross Lillistone does great stitch & glue designs.

[Tom M.]

The B&B Yacht Designs guy, Graham something....

[John Meachen]

I think Jack Holt should have been included among the designers.That should save Duncan Gibbs the bother of mentioning him and pointing out that a lot of Mirrors have been built.I believe a number of his older designs have now been reworked for stitch and glue as well.

[Presuming Ed]

Are there any stitch and glue boats more popular than the Mirror - which has about 70,000 boats built, the vast majority in s&g.

[Steve Paskey]

This poll is a bad idea. Without including all the current reasonably well known designers, it is seriously faulted. Besides, how many forumites have experience with many of the candidates, or even more than one.

A bad idea? Why? What harm does it do? I've learned some things in this thread. I'm just interested in hearing which S&G designers people are impressed by and why.

[Tom Lathrop]

A bad idea? Why? What harm does it do? I've learned some things in this thread. I'm just interested in hearing which S&G designers people are impressed by and why.

Because it purports to be something that it cannot deliver on, that is why its a bad idea, as are most polls. No way can this or any poll determine which is the best designer of S&G boats. Some of the best aren't even on the list. Yes, we can learn something, even from bad ideas. To really learn much of value, we'd need those who have actually built with specific designers plans to make comments on their value.

[James McMullen]

It's clearly incomplete and painting with a very, very broad brush. . .but I still think it's both interesting and gratifying that about 50% of the respondents so far agree that my friend and colleague* Sam Devlin is at the top of this particular list.



*Full disclosure: I am not unbiased, as Sam is the designer of the Candlefish and Rockfish kit boats that my own company manufactures.

[jimkeen]

My vote goes to Karl Stambagh for his Redwing series. I have built the 18, it is amazing to get such a great looking boat that actually goes together per the plans and works as advertised. I am currently building Bolgers Diablo 15, I started out using the Dynamite Payson tack and tape method. As it turns out I am not coordinated enough to keep all of the moving parts in the right spot long enough to drive the "tack". As a result I reverted to the tried and true (st)itch and glue method. This allowed for me to true the shape one stitch at a time, resulting in a much better shape. Once the Diablo is finished I will be moving on to a Bluejacket 271 also a stitch and glue vessel.
Before deciding on the BJ271 I considered the Surf Scoter 26, but the power plant requires too much room and money.
Mertens DE 25 was a strong contender and I came close on that design, before speaking with Tom L and learning about his efficient hull design.
Of course, because of my success with the RW18, a Redwing 26 was considered but we are looking for something a different in the new boat.
A couple of S & G kayaks, a Harry Bryan Ladybug and a Stevenson Weekender round out the fleet....... so far

[James McMullen]

Attaboy, jimkeen! Building 'em is just as much fun as using 'em!

[wizbang 13]

you your self, with a roll of tape (masking) and a piece of cardboard and an eigth of bc bud ,is the best designer of this type.

[erster]

The poll is 100 percent flawed. Stick and glue is just a process. The BEST boat is determined by the builder's needs, desires and location in which the builder intends on using any boat. Jim Keen speaks of the power plant issue which has nothing in the world to do with the building method except that some methods saves weight and reduces the need for excessive hp for the size.

You can take almost any power boat and make a cruiser or a trawler by altering the power plant, weight be damned too if you wish not to pay big bucks for the increased power that actually pushes the boat to a designed speed.

To some people the boat design with dissimular power plants would be considered a dog and in the wrong hands if sold and can actually get bad press on the docks because of how the boat would ride, angle and all in different areas.

But some liteweight boats which the building method allows you to build would be a huge disadvantage is certain regions of the country and the world. An educated builder makes the best boat and cannot be determined by opinions from others. Every two to three years history has proven that this too can change.

[Steve Paskey]

The poll is 100 percent flawed. Stick and glue is just a process. The BEST boat is determined by the builder's needs, desires and location in which the builder intends on using any boat.

I've renamed the thread. I'm not asking about the best boat. I'm asking about the designer who best utilizes the method.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

I think Jack Holt should have been included among the designers.That should save Duncan Gibbs the bother of mentioning him and pointing out that a lot of Mirrors have been built.I believe a number of his older designs have now been reworked for stitch and glue as well.

Jack Holt and Barry Bucknell - and I cannot guess who had how much input - but what a success.

The rest is likely to come down to which boat you like the best....

[keyhavenpotterer]

I really like the fact that Ross Lillistone "came out" and "confessed" he does S&G.

He makes a good case for it, here on Duckworks

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/10/columns/ross/01/index.htm

Brian

[Chris Ostlind]

I'm kinda bummed that I've become... Someone Else. ;-)

My Mom told me way back when, after I had built a treehouse and pelted all my friends with slingshot propelled eucalyptus acorns, that I was never going to be like someone else after a display like that.

Life and its ironies.

[kenjamin]

Hang in there Chris! We love ya, man! I especially like this catamaran of yours, the Gato Especial Cruising Cat:

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Gato.jpg

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Gato2.jpg

[Duncan Gibbs]

I think Jack Holt should have been included among the designers.That should save Duncan Gibbs the bother of mentioning him and pointing out that a lot of Mirrors have been built.I believe a number of his older designs have now been reworked for stitch and glue as well.

Damnit John... You read my mind! :D

Not only Mirrors though....

ROTFLMAO :D:D:D

[erster]

I have personally been on the EC 22 from B*B and watched part of it being built. He built it for one purpose , race and used razor thin scantlings and incorporated some creative components using i think "epoxy air" I think :D into the build which also included the cabin. The ones that you have listed primarily sells to consumers and while I am sure that they are absolutely the nuts, pound for pound I challenge anyone to pack so much into that size boat and it weigh so little comparing apples to apples using this method.

[paladin]

I will mention Dudley Dix as I have 3 of his boats for build if the kids ever finish them. I helped them start them but as soon as dad relaxed, so did they. I would like to drag out my old work and have it cleaned up for re issue.

[rufustr]

I won't take part in the poll as I don't see any advantage in trying to compare an incomplete list of designers with such different designs.

BTW I have sets of plans from several designers.

[Dusty Yevsky]

One designer not on the list who needs a shout out is Vaclav Stejskal, proprietor of One Ocean Kayaks. He mostly designs strip kayaks but I built his S&G Cirrus and came away very impressed with the detail and forethought of a build process that produces a sophisticated, refined and complex design in plywood. I've built some other S&G boats from designers listed in the poll and while they were all good, Vaclav's process is an order of magnitude better. His site is a veritable fount of information and ideas, which he freely shares.

[Y Bar Ranch]

Where's John Lockwood of Pygmy Boats? He sells a ton of stitch and glue kits, and his kayak designs rock. I've built two.

Graham Byrne of B&B of course should be on the list.

The criteria for best boat is many and various, at a minimum you'd have to compare cost, performance (itself having many, many measures of quality), and ease of building as criteria for a boat. Now unless Designer A's cost is less, performance is more, and ease of building is less for his boat than it is for Designer B's, you can't compare the two. Because then it depends on how much you weigh each criteria. And that weight varies from person to person.

[LeeG]

you your self, with a roll of tape (masking) and a piece of cardboard and an eigth of bc bud ,is the best designer of this type.

well done!

[LeeG]

The Mertens design is a DE25 Long Cockpit with transom-hung power. . . and I have the suspicion it's the very first one ever of this exact model to be built.

I don't think that the lapstitch joint which is reinforced with proper fillets on either side of the joint is particularly weak. . . . . I've certainly never seen one of these joints fail. I doubt it's any weaker than a standard glued lapstrake joint as long as care is taken to completely fill the spaces in the joint.

http://www.clcboats.com/images/photos/shoptips/lapstitch/lapstitch-logo.jpg

it may not be the joint is weak in isolation but some designs that doesn't use glass in some areas may need it in others and the joint is where things give. When the CLC Sassafras 14 was marketed the demo was made in 6mm. It was a bit heavy but otherwise a strong hull and the best paddling Sassafras canoe if paddled as a solo. Before production a decision was made to make the kits in 4mm to save weight, before an actual 4mm demo model was built. When the 4mm demo boat was made the bilge panels cracked on the lower panel just below the lap and the entire bottom of the hull flexed noticably.
4mm could be thick enough to make a 14 or 16' canoe but not in "lap-stitch". It could have been built in 6mm with lapstitch or 4mm with glassed panels and joints.

[landlocked sailor]

I vote for Tom Lathrop: http://www.bluejacketboats.com/index.htm
but I may be biased...:p
Rick

[The Bigfella]

No contest....

Rodney March designer of the Tornado, the olympic class catamaran for so many decades. The boat was specifically designed to win the IYRU Olympic Catamaran Trials held in the UK in 1967, when it easily defeated all other challengers from around the globe. The Tornado is capable of 30 knots on a reach and 18 knots upwind and is probably still the fastest production boat.

[davebrown]

1. i dropped a clc sassafras 12, 4mm, out of the back of my suv on the highway the other day, doing around 50 mph. this is not every kind of stress, but it is one kind. it made a concave elliptical gouge out of the contact point of about 3/8s". it was tied (the wrong way) to the front of my car, which means that it dragged rather than rolled. had it rolled, i expect it would have disintegrated, or at least fractured. but what more could we expect of a boat? i spent 20 mins. repairing it, and except for putting paint on the wound, it is now back to original.

2. i hate stitch and glue compared to building with molds. but, for some reason, and i am one of the believers, or was, anyway, the first-time builder observes and appreciates the method easier than the more (SEEMINGLY) complicated steps required to build with molds and say, stringers. stitch building is an ancient method, and certainly with merit. it is slower, but easier, to build using molds.

3. payson/bolger make it incredibly user friendly. devlin is much more of an artist. clc puts kits together that are cheaper than sourcing the material and getting it piecemeal. it is for that reason that i built two sassafrass canoes.