Schooner rigs

[garland reese]

Do Schooner rigs work well on smaller boats. I like the 22 foot Atkins (supposed to be a trailerable design)schooner rigged Florence Oakland in the current WB issue. Also, I came across a design from William Gardner, called Sandpiper (on DN Goodchild's site.......a treasure chest of older plans/design/building articles!!!!).
Sandpiper is a small schooner (I don't know just how small,as the page did not give the specs) that has very nice lines in a relatively simple design. I'd love to be able to build such a boat. In reality, they perhaps are not within my current requirements (light, trailerable, designed for living on a trailer, easy to launch and rig, blah, blah, blah...).
Oh well, what do you think about schooners, especially small ones. What is good about the rig? What's not so good? Too fussy, or not? Too compicated, or not? Too much to handle short handed, or not?
They sure look salty.

[Gary Bergman]

We have a number of smaller schooners around, I was looking at a 27 footer today.Very salty looking when small. Saw a 25 footer a few weeks back...same picture. As far as single handing, that's a matter of ones sailing skills,and invention

[ 12-11-2002, 01:25 AM: Message edited by: Gary Bergman ]

[htom]

http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/INDEX.HTM

Bolger schooners, small, light, fast, trailerable, folding not required.

[Wild Dingo]

Correction mate ;) ... thats...

http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/index.html

have a gander!! :cool:

Take it easy
Shane

[Ian McColgin]

I was sure I wrote a thoughtful response but it got lost.

Bolger and others have made nifty light beach cruisers with various simple schooner rigs. These are hull and rig designs that are integrated together to keep sail area low and stresses low. Nice boats, especially if you're not in a huge hurry and don't care about how fast you get to weather.

There are also some pocket cruisers with highly evloved schooner rigs, expecially balanced lug or chineese. Again, wonderful boats for their purpose.

There are a few small schooners that are meant to be mini-fantacy ships. If you prize romance over reasonable performance, this could be an option.

The worste thing is to plop a schooner rig into a displacement hull that was designed for a taller rig. The boat will be seiously unhappy.

In general, one mast works better than two in terms of efficient sail spread for both on and off the wind, but as the vessel size increases, the stresses increase geometrically. Material, design and crew limits then dictate a divided rig.

Some designers have some nice little cruisers for which they drew multiple rigs. I can't remember who did the one in my mind's eye - she came as everything - schooner, ketch, yawl, sloop and gaff cutter. The designer thought the order I've listed was also the order of overall performance, from worste to best.

For little boats that are not purpose designed for some freestanding divided rig, you'll really be happiest with a sloop or cutter, maybe a cat.

G'luck

[Ken Hall]

George Buehler (crack booom!) has a 16' schooner (Pogo) and a 29' schooner (Uncle Sam). There are photos of each--someone has apparently built'un.

I'm thinking seriously about Pogo for a family daysailer, mostly because I've promised myself a schooner afore I cross the bar and I don't want to sink an inordinate proportion of the family's income into a big boat. The Stuart Reid Swiftsure keeps creeping in, though...I hear that square sail calling me....

I think Benford might have a smallish schooner-rigged design too. Have to look.

[garland reese]

Thanks to all for the insights. In reality, a schooner probably isn't the boat for us, but they sure look cool. This is the one that I was referring to:

Garden Schooner (http://www.dngoodchild.com/5204.htm)

Here's another that is very salty:

Topsail cutter Wm Garden (http://www.dngoodchild.com/5249.htm)

Anyway.....there are some great little boats of all sorts on Mr. Goodchilds' pages.

This one seems amazing for such a small craft. Two years, two people, 17 feet :eek:

confucius 17 foot sloop (http://www.dngoodchild.com/5617.htm)

[ishmael]

Don't get me wrong, I love the look of traditional schooners, but I've never understood the reason for them. Doesn't it make more sense to have the bigger sail forward? Just from a physics point of view? The larger sail area pulling/pushing, in/from the direction you are going much of the time?

I've never had this explained to me satisfactorily.

[garland reese]

Hey Ken,

I like the little Swiftsure too! She'd be a lot of fun to sail around on. I wonder if the plans are still available through John W?

Supposedly, a fellow in Oklahoma built a Pogo some years ago.

I was looking at the Goodchild site and came across a whole bunch of older designs/plans and stuff. The schooner was one of many.

Shane, there is a Bolger Light Schooner a coupla hours away from me (Carlson has built a few Bolger boats.....Brick, Light Schooner, Micro, Sneakeasy..). The lt schooner looks like a wild ride!

[Gary Bergman]

A little spin... My vessel is a marconi-rigged ketch.I wuz entered in a classic boat race years back that I had never done before.Didn't really know where the yacht club was that was the finish. Some friends in a very large schooner told me,' just follow us,we'll show you' What a learning curve about schooners...Followed them and their rival for hours and hours. When we finished, the destination was upwind about 45 minutes from where we started, I coulda went straight there, but the schooners couldn't perform on the wind, and I jus didn't realize!.....

[Keith Wilson]

A true story - I was sailng my old Thunderbird on a summer afternoon upwind through the Raccoon Strait beween Angel Island and Marin. We were reefed down, it was blowing about 20-22 knots, and there was a considerably larger schooner ahead of us by about 200 yards; about 45', lovely boat, relatively new well-trimmed sails, large crew, she seemed to be well-handled. Now I, as something of a traditionalist but with no direct experience of schooners, had always suspeced that the conventional wisdom about their poor windward performance was a bit exaggerated. However, by the time we came out of the other end, we were about half a mile ahead of her. We had made three tacks, she was on her sixth. This is perhaps an unfair comparison, as Thunderbirds are reputed to go to windward pretty well, and hull form has a large effect - but I'm very far from a hotshot racing sailor, and my boat had 20-year-old sails. I decided that schooners are great; I love to watch them sail from a distance.

[Ian McColgin]

I don't think schooners have a chance of being efficient if much less that 15T - 20T. Like about 50'.

Mya, of note in recent thread, and Lana & Harley built by Gannon & Benjamine are both examples of medium sized schooners that can go to weather better than almost any ketch, most yawls and many many sloops.

But the point of a traditional schooner with her kites up is that nothing can touch 'em off the wind.

One Hurricane Cup with Goblin will suffice. The main race is Hyannis to Nantucket. But there's also a race back. It's the race back at point here. Goblin was only an Alden 43 with baged out sails and no huge kites. She could only drive up to about 50 - 55 degrees into the wind.

But the race was a nice broad reach. I was single handing so I started under reefed main, mainstaysail, forestaysail and small jib. No fisherman. That way I could manage some tacking and fooling about at the starting line.

Once underway, however, I got her sailing herself and went up to pop up the big jib - almost a genny. Then I got out the reefs in the main. And lastly I got the fisherman up.

It was blowing pretty good - about 25kt with whitehorses all around us but also a good fog. Took me about 3 miles to get all that sail up and under control. Then I allowed for the current set and drove a clean duck's course straight at the HH bell.

It was grand. I'd come up through the fog passing one IORtypetupperwarebitoffrozensnot after another, they with their 'chutes up and brawney fellows yelling and working hard, with myself at my ease with a bit of the highland's finest.

I don't know our peak speeds as the log was pegged most of the time - but that's only 8 kt. I was 1 hr 37 min NB to HH so my average was well over 10kt.

Actually, I was quite frightened at how I'd slow down. At first I wanted to drop some sail out from Hyannis Port but I was moving so fast and the seas were a bit rough so I carried on (through 3 single handed gybes) into Lewis Bay and dropped trou under Egg Island.

Litteraly, as when I rounded up to lower some sail she forereached a bit further than planned and I put a bit of a dent in the sand. One of the boats I'd passed came by to hoot a bit and that's when I mooned 'em.

There is nothing like a strong schooner rig running free, heeled rail down so the water's breaking off the coachhouse, and towing a wake big enough to surf on . . .

Other folk just think they're living.

[Gary Bergman]

but....to seem to contradict myownself, a chappelle schooner,43' on deck that dave saw when he was here, can run damn near up my ass on a heavy weather day inna spring!

[SailBoatDude]

I've looked at all the rigs before I picked the schooner for my 48'er. This rig has a fore as big as her main, but it's gaff and looks to be smaller because of the mast height (the main is conventional). The boom on the main is shorter then would be typical and the fore triangle area is larger, because the rig was shifted aft when the main boom was cut down. This was because of my insistence of no sprit.

As Bolger put it, " . . . a schooner is a cutter with a mast in the middle of the fore triangle . . ." and he's quite right. Though a single stick would have put the main sail at an overly handable size, the ketch would have worked, but I've never liked sailing them, wind down the back of your shirt, can't point, etc. The yawl looked good for a while, but the mizzen seems a waste except for the stay sail and the riding sail aspects at anchor.

This rig as designed, will make almost hull speed under fore alone in 15 knots or better, and will point higher then you'd think. Who points up all day long anyway? I'm not affraid to use my motor.

This rig can be gotten underway, regardless of wind direction, and can be brought to a stop regardless of wind direction (the advantage of a gaff) which makes singlehanding enjoyable. A lot of schooners have a seemingly permeant reef in the main, but this boat will not, because of the smaller main in relationship to the fore.

The schooner hasn't had the luxury of development that other rigs have had for several reasons. It's not a bad rig, in fact a good rig and rather fast on most points of sail. The sail combos you can put up, make the rig very versatile and forgiving. Ease the sheets and watch what happens to the boats designed to go on one point of sail real well.

It's a favorite among sailing professionals and work boats for many reasons, besides looking so good. In smaller sizes, sure it's more sticks then necessary, but a better looking small ship is hard to find. The hull should be designed to match the rig, as to not get sluggish performance from a hull needing a higher aspect ratio, but this is true of any design.

Put an overlapping fore and a big gen on one of those little cruisers and see how well the round the marks guys can keep up. Sure they'll out point her a bit, but will they make up for all the other points of sail they'll be looking at her transom? Besides where do you hang the hammock on a sloop?

[Zane Lewis]

Hey a topic close to my heart.
Boldger in his book 101 rigs covers this one quite well.
As for Schooners going to windward. A well set up schooner should go to windward as well a similar ketch.
Boldgers little schooners go to windward quite well.

The key is to get a good air flow from the foresail on to the main. This may require a boom or gaff vang, or a traveler that allows you to get good leach tensions. The aim is to get an effect similar to that of a Jib directing air flow onto the mainsail. The extreme of this was W Gardener's little Toadstool schooner with a lug forsail that overlapped the mainmast. (It was later shortened to ease short tacking when single handing)

In a lot of traditional Schooners the main was working in the upwash from the foresail very much like the mizzen does on a bemudiun Ketch.
If you look at some of the more recent (post1900's)high performing Schooners you will note that the forsail leach is almost parrallel to the mainmast.

Apart from looks the main reason in a small boat for the Schooner rig is to spead out the sail area and lower the COE in boats with low stability such as sharpies.

See R.Parkers 34' Terrapain Schooner for a successful small schooner. ( A little heavy for my taste )

Cheer's
Zane

[SailBoatDude]

Over lapping the foresail on a schooner is the way to go for good windward work. They were banned from ocean racing for this reason, I think.

I had a few rides on a west coast schooner with this setup and she seemed much closer then others of similar type with a boom.

The schooner rig allowed deck work to be done under way with the fore and headsail(s) pulling or the headsail(s) and main, leaving an open deck for the tasks at hand. They also where the fastest way back to port with a load on a big craft using a pretty stretchy standing rig. High aspect rigs didn't become successful until rig tension could be increased with good wire and engineering (bemu) answered the problems. The divided rig was the only choice and the schooner was the fastest and handiest one of the bunch.

It's a real shame the rig didn't receive the attention in development the bemu cutter and sloop did in the early part of the 20th. I think it would have had similar increases in the performance we see today in the other rigs. It never evolved past the late 1800's, though some attempts were made, but not by enough and not under the demand of race success that seems to drive designers to climb out on a limb, just to see what would happen (with someone else's money)

[garland reese]

The little 22 foot Florence Oakland that was pictured in the WB article on William and John Atkin seems to have a relatively closely proportioned sail area between the fore and main sails. The jib (I guess that is what you call it??) has a boom, so does not overlap. Could that be modified without causing major disruption in balance (by a qualified designer)?
Florence Oakland is a very pretty and well proportioned schooner for such a small example of the type. The article mentioned some 100 plansets have been sent out over the years. I wonder if any of these are afloat? I've never given a schooner much thought, but Florence Oakland might be approachable to build someday, especially if she'd perform well. I'm not really bent on racing and such, but I don't want to have to fire up the motor if I want to go to windward either. A little schooner would sure be a breath of fresh air among the white plastic of my local reservior.
This thread is very interesting. Thanks everyone.

[Todd Bradshaw]

The effects on balance caused by sails that do or do not overlap can be somewhat unpredictable. It's often the case that the C.E. of the total rig is figured as having the foretriangle filled as a 100% jib would, even if the real sail will have greater overlap (like a 130 for example). In simplified form, since the aft part of an overlapping genoa is in the shadow of the mainsail, it may not really present much more heeling power or helm than a 100% jib would. Even so, it may help the main in other ways, like creating more of a lift for the mainsail, making the whole rig sail better.

You can also lose performance if shrouds or other obstructions prevent you from being able to sheet the genoa close enough to the keel line. Since jibs usually sheet inboard of the shrouds and genoas outboard, sails that don't overlap may allow you to sheet-in closer and in some cases, point higher. In any case, making the change from non-overlapping to overlapping and the predicted results on overall performance can be a tough call.

[Ben Fuller]

In the late 18th and early 19th centuries the pilots that hung around the mouth of the Cheasapeake used little schooners with tall narrow high aspect sails, free standing or lightly stayed rigs overlapping fore sails, high aspect ratio jib that sometimes was not set ( luff tension issue?) They were the forerunners of the oceangoing Chesapeake pilot schooners ( A.K.A. Baltimore clippers) There are good pics of them done by a British office named George Tobin, publised among other places in the new Pilots Volume 1. And lines were taken off by Marestier in the 1820's. No one has built one. I suspect they sailed quite well, with sails that look much like modern full batten fat heads.

[ahp]

Some day I am going to finsih the model I started of KATY, a Virginia pilot schooner. There is no standing rigging except the masts and bow sprit, which was typical. The foresail overlaps the main.

[J. Dillon]

AHP,

Here's my little model of the Virginia pilot schooner "Swift" plank on bulkhead .

The winter months is a good time to do models AHP go for it and post the pix.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid10/pa85ddbfd774f05fd571b28b8ff6f1511/fe019091.jpg

JD

[NormMessinger]

Dang! JD you do good work. Do you start from scratch or with a kit?

--Norm

[ahp]

JD, you have given me inspiration!

[Northernguy59]

J. Dillon,

Virginia pilot schooner "Swift"

Where can I get some additional information on this boat??

Thanks

[ 11-27-2003, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Northernguy59 ]

[ahp]

You might do a search for a little schooner "Toadstool" I remember an article about her some where, quite a few yers ago. About 25 ft. LOA, gaff rig, clipper bow, very attractive. One departure from tradition was her cast iron fin keel.

[Thad]

There was a SWIFT, a brig or snow built in 1721, a Norfolk pilot boat, and then there is the SWIFT, a schooner Vierinia Pilot boat of 1803. Both these boats had their designs recorded by the Royal Navy. Plans are available from the Smithsonian and there is discussion by Chapelle in Search for Speed Under Sail and The History of American Sailing Ships.

[Zane Lewis]

You asked what a Schooner would look like with a little modern development. Here one with a lot of input from a New Zealander who has done a couple of Modern Schooners.

http://www.mari-cha4.com/

How does going to windward with an apparent wind angle of 22 deg sound.

Just an extra large Sharpie with water ballast to go to windward and a swing keel for reaching.

Now who said schooners cann't go to windward !!!!

[ 11-27-2003, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: Zane Lewis ]

[brian.cunningham]

Take a look at the 19' Mackinaw Boat:
http://www.greatwoodboats.com/csb-thumb.htm

According to the "Gaff Rig Handbook" they sail quite well!
http://www.greatwoodboats.com/csb11.jpg
http://www.greatwoodboats.com/csb09.jpg
http://www.greatwoodboats.com/csb10.jpg
The foresail overlaps the main, making it go better to windward.

[Frank E. Price]

By itself, sailing to windward "quite well" is meaningless, but gentlemen don't sail to windward anyway. Some of the rest of us row to windward, or wait, or go somewhere else. Windward ability is overrated as a requirement, unless you're talking about the ability to continue making something good to windward in a heavy blow. Not the same as being closewinded or fast to windward.

Frank

[John B]

yeah, well the reason you don't find schooners were I live is that there's a prevailing southwesterly wind which is just about dead to windward when you want to go home from pretty well anywhere. And I've seen it printed more than once that the reason that schooner rigs are so popular on the east coast ( USA)is that the prevailing winds suit a boat that reaches well. Not that I'd want to perpetuate a factoid. Please tell me if its untrue.

'Gentlemen don't go to windward.'

Factoid. to put it politely.

[Thad]

John, I think that's right. Now, I have read Basil Greenhill's Merchant Schooner volumes about the comparable English schooners so I know that they weren't just an American thing. The British schooners differed from the American mostly in carrying yards and square sails on their foremasts. Reading from the records, passages were often delayed waiting for favourable winds, especially on the up wind legs to the South and West on this Atlantic coast. This must have applied on the British Isles, the Baltic, and other coasts as well.
This was the day of square and gaff sails. The biggest advantage of the gaff rigged schooner for the trader merchant along the coast was in crew size. Many of these vessels worked with crews of 1, 2, or 3, sometimes just the captain and a boy.
For the pilot boat, reaching back and forth on station, and often returned to port with only the boatman aboard, the reaching rig and shorthanded ability made the schooner a natural.

[brian.cunningham]

Originally posted by Frank E. Price:
By itself, sailing to windward "quite well" is meaningless, Actually they weren't by themselves, they were racing! ... other schooners though.

Speaking of non-American gaffers, the high aspect ratio Dutch gaffs work rather well.

James Wharram used them base his wing sails, as suprized himself when his schooner rigged boats where faster than his single masted boats, going 40 degrees to windward.

http://www.wharram.com/tiki_wingsail_article.shtml

A good way to 'test sail' a new boat is to sail it in crowded sailing waters, for example, the Falmouth Estuary near our home base, and compare it with other boats. One day, the late eighties, smugly satisfied with our 'TIKI 28' design's performance in comparison to other craft of similar or longer length, we were passed to windward by a 3lft. (9.45m) schooner rigged workboat, designed for fishing and sail training (see photo D of 'TIKI 31'). The fact that it was also a Wharram design, did not lessen the consternation or pique as it passed, for 'everyone knows' that schooners 'cannot' sail closer to the wind and faster than an equivalent sized single masted boat. Well, this one did.


Once the shock was over, I was inspired. My biggest design problem for 40 years was solved. Two masted rigs have smaller, easier handled sails and lighter gear than single masted rigs. On multihulls they also have, most important, a lower centre of effort than single masted rigs, giving less capsizing force. Yet, as I had found out in my early designing years, the boat with a single masted Bermudan rig invariable passed the boat with two masts, sailing faster and closer to windward.

This catamaran with a two masted Soft Wing Rig, that we had developed, however, had the speed and close winded ability as near as 'dammit is to swearing' to the traditional single masted Bermudan rig!!http://www.wharram.com/images/Tiki_sail_article_photo_D.jpg
http://www.wharram.com/images/Tiki_36_for_Tiki_Wingsail_Article_photo_E.jpg

New way to look at an old rig! smile.gif

[ 11-30-2003, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: brian.cunningham ]

[Aramas]

There was a racing catamaran here in AU some years ago with a cat schooner rig that did rather well. It had the ubiquitous rotating wingmasts and big roachy mains. It didn't seem to have much of a deficiency in performance when compared with more conventionally rigged boats.

Unfortunately I threw out all my old sailing magazines, so I can't pin it down any better than that.

[Frank E. Price]

Way to go, Brian!.

John, I'd bet the reason most sailing pleasure boats have only one mast is cost and simplicity. And I suspect most people like to convince themselves their plastic spastic "goes well to windward," whether they really spend much time on the wind or not. Most of the cruising sail boats I see under way in SE Alaska are motoring with the sail covers on, upwind and down.

Frank

[Hwyl]

I've mentioned this before, but I think the reason schooner rigs were popular was because they were (and are) easy to work. If you are anchoring, the mainsail can be left up for long perionds, so there is none of the hoisting , lowering and stowing work. They go backwards competely under control with the mainsail up and left to luff. I'm a truck driver and backing up is considered the test of a truck drivers skill amongst their peers. These schooners were used as trucks. I'm sure their backing up ability was used. To leave an anchorage, you can have the staysail ready to hoist. Pick up the anchor (drop the mooring) drift astern, put the helm over and hoist the staysail and you are sailing, in short order you can hoist the foresail and jib.
There is an intangible, in that sail trim seems less important in a gaff schooner than any other boat I've sailed. It's probably something to do with vast amounts of area being used innefficiently (aerodynamicaly speaking). Again this lends itself to the workboat thing, if you could set and forget sails, so much the better.

Schooners sailing as well to windward as sloops? More of Wharram's hocus pocus.

[brian.cunningham]

His boats can sail 40 degrees to windward, on a multihull anything closer than 45 is slower.

The newer designs have large pods on the deck.

I'd check into the forum. Sailing the large boats is like sailing an aircraft carrier!

On the other had I was on a large (42ft) tri this summers, it sailed like a dingy!