Ethylene Glycol "95% v/v" ?

[Larks]

Can anyone suggest what "95% v/v" means in relation to the amount of Ethylen Glycol in an engine coolant? I've been looking for the highest concentrate Ethylene Glycol and none that I see give a clear "contains 50% ethylene Glycol", they seem to say:
Ethylene Glycol 95% V/V (that's the highest in that terminology that I've seen)
or
Contains Ethylene Glycol 350g/l, which I assume means grams per litre, so roughly 35% I guess? - not knowing the weight of EG but based on 1000g of water = 1litre of water.

It's for wood treatment so I'm after the highest level of ethyl glycol as I can get as I'll probably end up diluting it a bit to get enough volume to shower/flood my hull deadwood through a circulation system for a while to see what it does. I now have ready access to all an assortment of pumps and stuff to set up a decent reasonably long term circulation system - ie a few weeks, so may as well give it a go.

[cookie]

95% V/V, hmm, my first guess would be 950cc E.G/litre.
Not sure though. Don't you want to include Borates in the mix??

[Larks]

Don't you want to include Borates in the mix??

I hadn't - should I?

[PeterSibley]

Borax .

Have you rung any of the chemical suppliers on the Coast Greg ? There are quite a few .

[AstoriaDave]

The 95% v/v stuff is as concentrated as you will find. Ethylene glycol itself is about 10% more dense than water, so that the w/w number would be a little higher. The 35% v/v stuff would be a little less concentrated than automobile coolant.

On exposure to moist air, the 95 % v/v stuff will pick up some water in use, but probably not enough to matter in your application. That concentration is very viscous, so that you might decide 50-70 % is better.

[Larks]

what does the "v/v" actually mean?

[cookie]

I hadn't - should I?

Dave Carnell has written about it in detail on his web site. Sounds like ideal stuff. And West has tested Borate salts in combination with epoxy and found no negative effects. Something I doubt when Ethylene Glycol is used since EG is a precursor to polymers and epoxy is a polymer....
Astoria Dave, do you have any specific (or theoretical) knowledge on this?

[cookie]

The recipe by Dave Carnell


Home-Brew Water Solution of Borates: Based on U.S. Navy spec. of 60% borax-- 40% boric acid (this ratio gives the maximum solubility of borates in water); 65% water, 20 %borax, 15% boric acid; 15.8% borates; borax costs 54 cents/lb. (supermarket), boric acid costs about $4/lb. in drug stores (sometimes boric acid roach poison, 99% boric acid, is cheaper in discount stores); equiv. to Tim-Bor® or Ship-Bor® at 30 cents/lb. To make this solution mix the required quantities and heat until dissolved. The boric acid, in particular, dissolves slowly. This solution is stable (no crystals) overnight in a refrigerator (40°F.), so can be used at temperatures at least as low as 40°F.
Home-Brew Glycol Solution of Borates: 50% glycol antifreeze, 28% borax, 22% boric acid. To make a stable solution you mix the ingredients and heat till boiling gently. Boil off water until a candy thermometer shows 260°F. (This removes most of the water of crystallization in the borax.) This solution is stable at 40°F and has a borate content of 26%. With antifreeze at $6/gal. and borax and boric acid prices as above, this costs about $15/gal

[Paul Fitzgerald]

Castrol radiator corrosion inhibitor, 45% ethylene glycol and 2.2% borate, $6 for 200ml at auto 1.

[CharlieCobra]

I have some 99% EG that I got from Chuck. Cool stuff.

[AstoriaDave]

Larks: v/v means the measure compares volume to volume, typically volume of what is dissolved (called "solute;" the EG in this case) compared to the total of solvent and solute. Other variants exist, but this one is the most useful and sensible. Example: 50 ccs EG and 51 ccs of water typically combine to make 100 ccs of solution (no, that's not a typo; often when liquids mix the volumes are not strictly additive -- has to do with intermolecular forces and other chemist BS). That combo would be (50/100) x 100% = 50 % EG v/v

Cookie: I got nothing to offer on preserving wood with borates and/or EG: I believe the borates are in automobile coolants to resist corrosion of metals. The borates will stick to the wood, and I believe they retard mold growth.

[jonboy]

I know we're not pansies and and work around all sorts of chemicals but two things from Chemicals in Conservation by A Clydesdale, amongst a lot of other stuff....
Ethylene glycol is a suspect carcinogen, toxic through skin and ingestion with a TLV of 50 ppm...that's low meaning highly toxic in vapour form. quote ".....toxic concentrations unlikely to occur at room temperature.... DO NOT HEAT...."
Also in my training and subsequent work it was never used as a wood preservative other than in total archaeological saturation situations...Mary Rose, Viking stuff.....as a replacement for the water content of the timber...
Next... various borate and Boric acid derivatives have been used as pesticides but were banned in the UK in '86...
"....EXTREMELY toxic if enters blood stream through cuts and abrasions..." If you ingest it you have three to five days to sort the will, sell the boat, hit the credit cards bigtime....
With Borax, sodium tetraborate decahydrate it has been used as a fungicide, but the bottom line is there's other stuff out there that's less dodgy....
And what you going to do with a boatfull of unpleasant chemicals after they've swilled round the bilge for a while.
I wouldn't barge it with a touchpole personally
Bib. Clydesdale Chemicals in Conservation SSCR second edition 1990 ISBN 0 9508068 46
C V Horie Materials for Conservation. Butterworths

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

what does the "v/v" actually mean?

This is a volumetric solution - as opposed to a weight per volume figure (w/v).

What exactly are you trying to achieve?

Ethylene glycol is commonly used as an engine coolant/corrosion inhibitor - it is hygroscopic and toxic to all organisms.

PEG - Polyethylene Glycol (different stuff) - has been used as a stabiliser for working with green wood and in timber conservation....

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Polyethylene_glycol

[Larks]

What exactly are you trying to achieve?


I've taken on board comments from quite a few previous discussions on the forum regarding ethylene glycol, as well as advice, ideas and opinions from one of my own threads on the deadwood in my H28 restoration opening up while I've been working away from home for a couple of years.

I don't intend to actually resolve my deadwood issues until I have completed the interior and deck/cabin top rebuild of my H28, but I currently have access to equipment to allow me to set up a recirculating shower/flood system to wet out my deadwood from the outside while I continue to strip paint on the inside of my H28, basically to see if it will take up again.

So the plan is to do so with either EG, salted water or chlorinated water (as suggested by a local boat builder). I understand from the forum that EG will retain some saturation of the timber while salted or chlorinated water will dry out again after I stop the flooding process.

It’s no great problem if it does dry out again, at least I will have some idea as to how the deadwood is going to behave when it goes in the drink and from that I can decide how I’m going to deal with it when I get to it, ie replace some deadwood... or.... spline the gaps to a certain degree....or...spline the gaps and calk them ... or.. just completely fill the gaps with gunk that can mostly squeeze out if it looks like it will take up completely.

But, the reason that I ask what V/V means is because it came up while I’ve been deciding on which liquid to use for the flooding and costing up the option of using ethyl glycol. I’d add that I have previously used an ethyl glycol based engine coolant to treat rot in a centuries old carved wooden doorway from India that I built into my house and splashed a bit around the bilges at the time – (just because I had a bit left over and could).



Castrol radiator corrosion inhibitor, 45% ethylene glycol and 2.2% borate, $6 for 200ml at auto 1.


Thanks Paul

[cookie]

In that case, I would probably use Ethylene Glycol.

I sent an email to Dave Carnell and he was kind enough to respond. In short he said that EG alone is VERY effective at killing rot organisms, so there is not really a need for adding Borates. Also he has good experience combining EG and epoxy, so there is no reason to worry about that either....

[Larks]

Thanks Cookie, that was very kind of you to contact Dave Carnell and very, very much appreciated.

[Mrleft8]

Ethylene glycol is anti-freeze. Polyethylene glycol with borate is wood preservative. Different stuff.

[paladin]

If Charlie Cobra still has the container, he can get the info from it concerning the material I sent him...it's a helluva lot cheaper that way. Otherwise contact me off line by private message and I'll dig up the contact info from the distributor for the 99% stuff. That's what I used and have had absolutely no problems over the years.

[Larks]

Ethylene glycol is anti-freeze. Polyethylene glycol with borate is wood preservative. Different stuff.

'you sure about that lefty? All of the previous threads that I'd read on ethylene glycol and polyethylene glycol suggest otherwise.

[Larks]

If Charlie Cobra still has the container, he can get the info from it concerning the material I sent him...it's a helluva lot cheaper that way. Otherwise contact me off line by private message and I'll dig up the contact info from the distributor for the 99% stuff. That's what I used and have had absolutely no problems over the years.

thanks Chuck. How are you doing bye the way??

[jonboy]

EG and PEG are effectively the same...there's a subtle molecular difference but not to concern us...Far to complex to bore you with here but check the specialists like the above mentioned books and abstracts fron the professional journals...

[Larks]

EG and PEG have been well covered and discussed elsewhere on the forum in the past, my issue here was more to do with how to read the concentrate level advertised.

But for anyone wanting to read more on EG and PEG etc, here are a few of the links that I'd been reading through, you will really need to make up your own mind but I'm quite happy to experiment a bit myself as well.

Also, for what it's worth, just to reiterate in my own case here, I'm not needing to kill rot but simply to see if I can get a feel and a bit of reassurance as to how well my deadwood might take up later on, the EG is just an option that I'm considering.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?t=93045
http://forum.woodenboat.com/archive/index.php/t-6571.html
http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/Workshop/rotstopper/rotcure.html
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?t=48849
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?t=7970
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?t=77984
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?t=60952