New sails arrived-Need help

[bluedog225]

I got my new sails today. I unpacked them to have a look and they look a little like a cotton handkerchief that had been wadded up and stuck in a pocket for the day, then spread out and folded.

Lots of creases (some very deep) and folds outlined in soft white. Photo below.

I've only had one other set of new sails made and I don't claim any expertise in sailcloth or sail making but this doesn't look right.

I ordered Hayward 5 ounce fabric.

I would appreciate any opinions on this.

Thanks

Tom

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4035/4506069331_cc446c6ba8_b.jpg

[Todd Bradshaw]

With modern resin-coated Dacron, creases come, to a certain extent, with the territory. On new sails, you may find two types of creases. The first are folding creases, simply because sails usually get stored in bags and shipped in boxes, both of which are a lot smaller than the unfolded sail is. The second kind of creases are working creases. These are caused by having to wrestle a big, stiff hunk of fabric around and put it through a sewing machine a whole bunch of times, and from a whole bunch of different angles, during the construction process. You can't generally turn corners with stitch lines, so you roll the sail like a scroll, sew the seams parallel to the roll, take it out of the machine, roll it the other direction and sew the remaining seams. Thus, a small corner patch or something like a simple diamond-shaped reef patch may involve two or three rolling jobs and passes through the machine before all the stitching is done. Even on a small lateen or lugsail, it may take thirty or more rollings and re-rollings to get all the stitching done.

The general idea is to try to avoid working creases by planning your stitching and rolling, avoiding situations where you might be wadding up a section (which causes small areas with a lot of irregular creases). You also have to be careful how you handle the rolled sail. This usually means sliding it around on the floor, rather than picking it up, because the roll might fold if not supported and the result would be undesired creases. If sewing on some sort of table and the fabric folds over the table, or falls off, more creases. If you are flipping the sail over to work on the other side and don't do it carefully....you guessed it....more creases. If you're getting the idea that the stuff creases easily and avoiding undesired working creases is a tedious pain in the rear, you're on the right track. Some folks are better at it than others and some think it's more important to deliver a sail that is as crease-free as possible than others do. I don't know who made your sails or what they were doing to get so many working or handling creases on a brand new sail, but that's a bit excessive. You're lucky it's Hayward fabric, since it usually creases less severely than most of the other brands.

Realistically....does it matter? In the long run, the typical boat owner will immediately start installing his own set of creases as soon as he starts using the sail and it's a lot harder to avoid creasing the sail out on the boat than it is on the loft floor, so maybe it's a little silly to be so fanatical about avoiding them during the manufacturing process. The thing that drives me nuts is doing a good job of avoiding working creases and then having to fold the sail and cover it with creases to fit into a bag or box. Unfortunately, there isn't much choice about this one. Back when I built Kevlar and Technora radials from fabric that can't be folded and must be rolled, they would arrive crease-free, but the shipping costs were sometimes $100-$150 because they had to be shipped in big, heavy tubes (and that was 15 years ago). Most customers aren't willing to pay for tube shipping, just to avoid folds on Dacron sails.

The good news is that creases don't really have much, if any, affect on the sail's strength or performance. If your airfoil is going to be made from resin-stabilized and stiffened fabric and that fabric is going to be flaked, folded, stored in a bag, shipped in a box or occasionally dumped into the cockpit in a pile, creases are just something you live with. Until somebody invents modern stable sailcloth from a material that won't crease, we're pretty much stuck with them.

Finished sails.....
http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/sc1.jpg

Finished sails with folding creases after boxing and shipping. Annoying, but there isn't much we can do about it.
http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/sc2.jpg

[Venchka]

I purchased 2 suits of 2 sails about a year apart made by Brad Hunter of Gambell & Hunter. 6oz. & 4oz. Hayward cloth. The sails arrived looking like the cloth left the bolt and went directly into the sail bag and then the box.

Just sayin'.

[bluedog225]

With modern resin-coated Dacron, creases come, to a certain extent, with the territory. On new sails, you may find two types of creases. The first are folding creases, simply because sails usually get stored in bags and shipped in boxes, both of which are a lot smaller than the unfolded sail is. The second kind of creases are working creases. These are caused by having to wrestle a big, stiff hunk of fabric around and put it through a sewing machine a whole bunch of times, and from a whole bunch of different angles, during the construction process. You can't generally turn corners with stitch lines, so you roll the sail like a scroll, sew the seams parallel to the roll, take it out of the machine, roll it the other direction and sew the remaining seams. Thus, a small corner patch or something like a simple diamond-shaped reef patch may involve two or three rolling jobs and passes through the machine before all the stitching is done. Even on a small lateen or lugsail, it may take thirty or more rollings and re-rollings to get all the stitching done.

The general idea is to try to avoid working creases by planning your stitching and rolling, avoiding situations where you might be wadding up a section (which causes small areas with a lot of irregular creases). You also have to be careful how you handle the rolled sail. This usually means sliding it around on the floor, rather than picking it up, because the roll might fold if not supported and the result would be undesired creases. If sewing on some sort of table and the fabric folds over the table, or falls off, more creases. If you are flipping the sail over to work on the other side and don't do it carefully....you guessed it....more creases. If you're getting the idea that the stuff creases easily and avoiding undesired working creases is a tedious pain in the rear, you're on the right track. Some folks are better at it than others and some think it's more important to deliver a sail that is as crease-free as possible than others do. I don't know who made your sails or what they were doing to get so many working or handling creases on a brand new sail, but that's a bit excessive. You're lucky it's Hayward fabric, since it usually creases less severely than most of the other brands.

Realistically....does it matter? In the long run, the typical boat owner will immediately start installing his own set of creases as soon as he starts using the sail and it's a lot harder to avoid creasing the sail out on the boat than it is on the loft floor, so maybe it's a little silly to be so fanatical about avoiding them during the manufacturing process. The thing that drives me nuts is doing a good job of avoiding working creases and then having to fold the sail and cover it with creases to fit into a bag or box. Unfortunately, there isn't much choice about this one. Back when I built Kevlar and Technora radials from fabric that can't be folded and must be rolled, they would arrive crease-free, but the shipping costs were sometimes $100-$150 because they had to be shipped in big, heavy tubes (and that was 15 years ago). Most customers aren't willing to pay for tube shipping, just to avoid folds on Dacron sails.

The good news is that creases don't really have much, if any, affect on the sail's strength or performance. If your airfoil is going to be made from resin-stabilized and stiffened fabric and that fabric is going to be flaked, folded, stored in a bag, shipped in a box or occasionally dumped into the cockpit in a pile, creases are just something you live with. Until somebody invents modern stable sailcloth from a material that won't crease, we're pretty much stuck with them.

Finished sails.....


Finished sails with folding creases after boxing and shipping. Annoying, but there isn't much we can do about it.



Nice sails.

Thanks for the detailed response. I don't have a problem with the normal folds, this just seems over the top.

I've got a call in to the sailmakers to discuss. I wanted a nice, well made, set of sails so I went with an established loft. They are well known and well regarded from everything I have heard.

Tom

[George Ray]

As someone who has only ever STUFFED sails into sail bags I have difficulty understanding your concern about the 'wrinkles'.
If it were the case that: (a) the the boat was intended for museum display or (b) the new sails were to appear in a high end photo shoot then I see the point.
If any of these was the case then it is clearly an unusual situation that must be communicated to the sailmaker ahead of time. Otherwise, mentioning this concern to the loft it seems like a good way to strain relations with a vendor.

[Todd Bradshaw]

The point is that it's highly unusual for a sailmaker to deliver sails that look like they have been wadded up during or after the building process. To some extent, it's one of those "pride in your workmanship" issues, the same way that delivering a finished boat without big runs and drips in the paint or varnish would be. At some point in it's life, a sail (or a boat) should look like somebody really cared about its condition and making it as close to perfect as possible.

As to stuffing sails, rather than folding them properly, it's often not a great idea and is mostly just laziness. Some fabrics (and the resin they're coated with-which is stabilizing the cloth and helping the sail hold its designed shape) tolerate it better than others. Certain fabrics shrink measurably when covered with tiny, irregular wrinkles and these don't come out with wind pressure or halyard/outhaul/sheet tension. Some fabrics will actually crack when stuffed (like big Dacron racing scow sails). For sailors interested in best performance using typical, modern, resin-coated Dacron sails, the smoother you can keep them the better they're likely to perform and the longer they're likely to last - and folding or flaking them neatly is easier on the resin coating than stuffing them.

As to straining relations with the sailmaker, I think they deserve some feedback. Maybe they have a new employee who hasn't completely learned the ropes yet. This sort of thing would be enough that I wouldn't be likely to ever buy another sail from them or recommend them to others and the owner of the loft might want to know about such things and do something about it.

[donald branscom]

As someone who has only ever STUFFED sails into sail bags I have difficulty understanding your concern about the 'wrinkles'.
If it were the case that: (a) the the boat was intended for museum display or (b) the new sails were to appear in a high end photo shoot then I see the point.
If any of these was the case then it is clearly an unusual situation that must be communicated to the sailmaker ahead of time. Otherwise, mentioning this concern to the loft it seems like a good way to strain relations with a vendor.

I would NEVER stuff a sail into a bag.
It is better to flake the sail and fold in half or thirds and put into a bag.

If you are a live aboard and not a racer or person who just comes down in july, then I would hank the sails on and leave them on. Put your sail cover over the flaked sail. They last longer. Make sure the sail cover fits loose NOT TIGHT or the sails will get mold on them. Use a light color to keep the heat and mold from occuring. They look better too.

And if you do have to worry about your sail being stolen ( because you are never around) then take the sails off ROLL THEM UP and take them home and put them on a long shelf rolled up and they will look great.

Find a cardboard tube or plastic tube to transport them in. Keep them in an area that has air circulation so they do not mold.