Cheap Canoe with a Vee Bottom

[Ken B]

Hi Guys,
Happy Holidays to everyone! We've choosen the Cheap Canoe for our Scout project. I found some AB Marine (1/4) for $28.00 a sheet and started cutting the demo unit the day after Christmas. I want to make at least one of these canoes with "vee bottom". So I went to the local kayak dealer and took a look at all the kayaks with a vee bottom. After comparing similar hulls, I've decided to give the Cheap Canoe a 2 1/2 inch vee at the mid point, with the vee tapering out towards the bow and stern. I hope to keep the rocker at a minimum. My son and I did the math, it looks like we can use the same bottom dimensions along with the 16 degree angle the plans call for. The vee will draw the sides in about 5/8 of an inch (center, top & bottom) plus it will require a cut, stitch and glue down the center line of the boat. My goal is to improve tracking without a keel. My question to all of you is. :confused: Do you think this idea will work or do you know of plans for a retractable skeg? I also need ideas for a seat (one with a back rest). Thanks for all your help! Look forward to your ideas.

[Paul Scheuer]

Way to go Ken. The hard part is over.

I wouldn't worry too much about tracking. That's where the canoing skill comes in. Less tracking might even be motivation for inmprovement.

There can even be a point where the boat tracks too well, especially on a swift downriver outing. I've been in such a boat, and it took more skill to anticipate the turns and take early action than it would have taken to keep a normal boat tracking on the straight runs.

When you get the prototype in the water, be sure to load it to your camping weight to check the tracking. It will make a difference. You may even want to play around with the fore & aft loading, to judge the effect.

Have you got your official photographer identified yet ?

[Wayne Jeffers]

What Paul said.

I would only add that I don't think a shallow V on the bottom of a canoe will make a noticeable difference in tracking. What will make a difference is the amount of rocker in the bottom. No rocker (flat front-to-back) will track so well it will be slow to turn when you want it to. Lots of rocker (like a whitewater canoe) will be very maneuverable, but won't easily keep a straight course on flat water.

Wayne

[Ken B]

Thanks for the advice. smile.gif

Your right! Choosing which boat is the hardest part.

I found a skeg, CLC has plans for $10.00.
Any suggestions for a seat? We could be paddling as much as six hours a day, need something for those long days. :cool:

[ishmael]

"Cheap Canoe". This isn't the the "Six Hour Canoe" eh?

I like the idea of a retractable skeg, maybe, but I'm skeptical about the value of adding a V bottom.

My 2 cents.

A picture is worth a thousand words.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I think you may find that adding a V-bottom makes it a much better all-around boat. Companies like Mad River Canoe have been building V-bottomed canoes for many years. They do tend to improve tracking, yet you can lean the boat slightly to turn it without the kind of drag and impediment to turning that a normal keel adds. It will also probably pound less if you are running through waves. The biggest drawback can be the fact that it will tend to concentrate any abrasion that the hull gets in a small area along the lowest part of the V, so make sure it's well reinforced.

A lot of small V-bottomed canoes and kayaks also seem to gain sort of a dynamic stability at paddling speed, almost like the way a bicycle gets more stable after you get up to speed.

[On Vacation]

Many trade offs with just a small vee will you find to be noticable. But if you have not gone from a flat bottom canoe or kayak style like a six hour canoe, you will not be able to tell the difference. The flip down retractable skeg is highly over rated. 20 hours on the water and you will never know the difference in the two. Have fun. Remember these fellows are young. We are slicing and dicing here. My pennies worth here.

I would have enjoyed any boats that floated when I was twelve years old. I thought that funky old juniper skiff was a sinker when my daddy bailed it out with a cut away clorox gallon jug.

[LeeG]

Originally posted by Ken B:
Thanks for the advice. smile.gif

Your right! Choosing which boat is the hardest part.

I found a skeg, CLC has plans for $10.00.
Any suggestions for a seat? We could be paddling as much as six hours a day, need something for those long days. :cool: That skeg,,like the one (Sequin I believe) shown in the "100 wooden boats you can build" goes all the way through the deck so it's not exactly canoe friendly as water would come into the canoe above the skeg box, also the top of the skeg box would need anchoring,,,heck it's not kayak friendly as the plastic blade will break near the pivot hole if the lever on top is bashed a few times as can happen to a kayak. Maybe it would be fine made out of a glassed piece of plywood. Mad River had a skeg for the solo Independence model but it's a heck of a complication for a simple craft, better paddle technique will be more rewarding in the long run for something as simple as a canoe paddled by two people,,these are tandem canoes?

[LeeG]

Any suggestions for a seat? We could be paddling as much as six hours a day, need something for those long days. :cool: [/QB][/QUOTE]

Look at the wenonah tractor seats for comfort but I bet pieces of minicell or neoprene near the floor or sides will be as valuable for bare knees while paddling as moving around will occur a lot for comfort. You could make the seats out of the cheapest 1" poly webbing you can find,,it may take a 500' roll.

[Paul Scheuer]

Any suggestions for a seat? We could be paddling as much as six hours a day, need something for those long days This little girl has an inclined (maybe 10 degree) plywood seat that can be positioned fore and aft as needed. I glued a 1 inch closed cell pad on top of it. The backrest (not shown in the pic) is 1/4 inch plywood formed in an arc (maybe 3 ft radius), that pivots on its cross bar. It also has a closed cell pad. Seems to work ok for long trips with a double paddle.

I've done several marathons, which take me more than 6 hours. I usually move the seat several times just for variety.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid18/pdd7b575f827d2782bfd4107d847cf319/fdd396c6.jpg

[Ken B]

Sounds like the skeg is more work than it's worth. Are there any Cheap Canoe owners out there that have tried to improve the tracking?

[Ken B]

Thanks for the seat ideas.

The problem we have on the Colorado is the wind. The first year we made this run the head winds were creating white caps and some of the guys were all over the place.

[Ed Neal]

Kids...whiteKaps...Kanoes, doesn't sound like a safe combination. A 12 year old kid and strong headwinds are going to have trouble whether the canoe tracks well or not.

[LeeG]

I agree with Ed, but just to make it easy look at the aluminum drop down skeg on a Necky Gannet or Santa Cruz. You could make the same out of a hinged piece of 3"x5" piece of aluminum stock with a string to pull it up. But if two kids are stressed on technique to paddle in a straight line for miles I doubt they'd have the horsepower to manage whitecaps. Don't try to make the boat do what the operators can't.

[NormMessinger]

White caps? On the Colorado River below Boulder Dam?

--Norm

[LeeG]

Originally posted by NormMessinger:
White caps? On the Colorado River below Boulder Dam?

--Normno man, not white caps, I said wide gaps, witha tuck and roll interior, in leather and and the lights all around, wide gaps, a real sharp chopped set of wheels man.

[NormMessinger]

smile.gif

[Ken B]

Hi Guys,

Yes, you can get whitecaps on Lake Havasu.

It was my first year as a Scout Leader and also my first river trip, June of 98. The boys in my unit are ages 14-16, we were paddling across Lake Havasu trying to get to our campsite at Winsor Beach. The winds were something that year! Most of the guys in that group are in College now, and from time to time we talk about our adventures. They never fail to mention that trip. It was great! That same year 2nd day, we stopped for lunch. I was sitting in my kayak eating an orange and the guys started skipping stones. I told them, "Hey- take it easy, someone is going to get hit". It was me, I got hit in the side of the head. That kid jumped in his canoe and tried to get away, it too good! :D

I tell the boys;
"The more it hurts, the better the memories".

My other favorite is;
"If your still complaining, it does'nt really hurt". smile.gif

This year July 03, we're hoping to get a permit to drop in below the Hoover Dam, should be great fun. I'm trying to plan ahead alitte as we have some smaller guys this time.

Anyway, thanks for all your suggestions.

[Ed Neal]

You might want to reflect on this canoeing accident in 1978 lead by a guy who thought pushing the limits rather than judgement was the way to bring up boys.

From the Gwillim Lake Guide:

In all canoeing activities, supervisors are asked to keep in mind the Lake Timiskaming tragedy where 13 boys on that canoe trip were drowned. That lake was warmer than you will find Gwillim Lake. Granted, the wind and water conditions are not as bad because Gwillim is a much smaller lake, however, when the first of those boats swamped, they were only 250 meters from shore. They were dealing with 45 centimeter waves that are entirely possible on Gwillim Lake. When the last canoe went into the water, they were only 70 meters from shore. Many of them did not make it anyway. All of this group wore excellent personal floatation devices. Those that died, died of hypothermia and drowning. We have an account of this disaster and the inquest report in the Board Office. It should be required reading for any canoeing trips.

[Eric Sea Frog]

Ken,

Giving the boat a vee-bottom you'll be lowering the center of gravity. That's good, especially if you use a low seat too. Foam, inflatable only if it's not too big, a ply perforated panel, or a polypro canvas seat.
The worst the conditions, the deeper the bottom vee. The center seam will reinforce the bottom panel, as stitch'n'glue boats break ad midpoint between seams, not at seams if they've been properly built (right epoxy temp, etc.)
I don't know about the boat's -it's called a canoe, but it rather pertains to the hard-chined kayak building traditions- beam.
A large, flat kayak is steadier on flat water, but when the wind picks up -and how suddenly does it on inner waters- the wide-apart, large chines will act as levers to turn the boat upside down; greenlandic special storm qajaqs had no chines, having a triangular cross-section, so that they could be paddled on the waves' sides. Regular kayaks had a small vee bottom.
Aleut kayaks have a bottom angle that often reaches 135 degrees, and they outpass greenlanders in conditions. They forgive a lot of mistakes.
So, every boat is a compromise.
A little rocker -which a vee bottom permits you to give the boat- isn't so bad, making turns easier. More fun!
I suggets you entrust that young stone-peddler with the flat-bottomed boat...
:D

Eric

[Ken B]

Ed,
Point taken. We were lucky that year, upon returning home I learned that the storm had damaged several house boats on Lake Powell.
The problem with that portion of the Colorado is Topock Gorge is a wilderness perserve and once you enter you have only two places were you can pull out, Castle Rock or Windsor Beach. That year we choose Windsor Beach and hind site being what it is we now take out at Castle Rock and avoid Lake Havasu.

[dadadata]

Seat...

what you need is a seat-back. Sit on a flotation cushion; use a slanted ply piece as a backrest. LF Herreshoff's "double paddle canoe" design has a good "split" backrest. A similar backrest is described by MacGregor in one of his Rob Roy books and probably by Baden Powell in Canoe Travelling.

A simple mushroom shape supported by a piece of rope works in the Bolger Sailng Peero on my Cheap Pages... see the URL

Email me offlist if you want me to see if I can find a scan of one of these. The Herreshoff canoe appears in an old - Popular Mechanics? - and I don't have that available. It may also appear in one of the books of LFH designs. Try interlibrary loan.