Converting sloop to cat yawl question

[JimD]

So I have original plans for a sloop but I don't want a jib and bowsprit arrangement. I'd like to change to a cat yawl, meaning get rid of the jib and bowprit, move the main forward a bit, and add a small mizzen at the stern. Anyone know of a good rule of thumb for size and placement of the two sails so the CE is where it ought to go?

[Stephen Hutchins]

It says you've posted 6,198 times. Shouldn't you be giving us some rules of thumb? smile.gif

[JimD]

Originally posted by Stephen Hutchins:
It says you've posted 6,198 times. Shouldn't you be giving us some rules of thumb? smile.gif :D As a rule, I'm all thumbs.
I should also add this is for a very small boat. Under 15 feet on deck. So there's very little room to get the main stick very far forward. The mizzen may have to be smaller than typical to keep it from moving the combined CE too far aft.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by JimD:


So how much lead should the main alone provide? For argument's sake let's say the original total sail plan lead is 10%, which is probably about right for a relatively heavy, full keeled little boat.For guesstimating purposes, I would put the COE of the new sail plan in the same place (fore & aft) as the original. You might have to juggle mast locations a bit and recalculate the COE.

Like this feeble effort of mine...

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid174/p0244878e64e7faaf7699e007fc6e8949/f39080a2.jpg

Good luck!

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimD]

For guesstimating purposes, I would put the COE of the new sail plan in the same place (fore & aft) as the original. You might have to juggle mast locations a bit and recalculate the COE.
This is what I was thinking and is what I have done so far. It seems to work out nicely except the mizzen will be less than 25% the area of the main. I think a limiting factor here is the size of the boat. With only 14 feet of deck its hard to find enough room forward of the CLR to put the main.

[Steve Paskey]

A cat yawl? I need to pay more attention -- last I remember you wanted a ketch. What happened to Benford's Gunkholer?

[JimD]

Originally posted by Steve Paskey:
A cat yawl? I need to pay more attention -- last I remember you wanted a ketch. What happened to Benford's Gunkholer?Oh, heck, I dunno, Steve. Changing priorities mostly. My dream boat keeps getting smaller and smaller. I'd offer a more thorough explanation but that would mean sharing a little more of my personal life on the internet than I feel comfortable with.

I like the yawl idea on this particular boat, Selway Fisher's Tideway 14, partly because it is so small a boat the mizzen will be very easily stepped, unstepped, stowed below or on deck when not in use, etc. I still wouldn't want a yawl on a larger craft.

[JimD]

But Steve, thanks for the reminder of what a versatile boat Gunkholer is. Maybe I'll keep the bowsprit on Tideway and put three sails on her. Maybe I'll build a Gunkholer...

[Stephen Hutchins]

Jim,
Why do you want an extra mast on such a small boat?

[Stephen Hutchins]

Jim,
Why do you want an extra mast on such a small boat?

[JimD]

Originally posted by Stephen Hutchins:
Jim,
Why do you want an extra mast on such a small boat?The idea was to do away with the bowsprit but not be left with only one sail. A solid, unstayed mast with a retractable bowsprit might make more sense in the long run. With 700#s ballast I doubt a few extra lbs of mast would make much difference to stability.

[Steve Paskey]

Jim: I'm sorry if your life isn't going entirely the way that you'd like. I can attest to the fact that there's a bit of that going around.

Have you looked at Karl Stambaugh's Meadowbird, a modified version of Sam Rabl's Titmouse? He has a yawl as an alternate rig, though it's not a cat yawl. One of the nice things about Meadowlark is that she has the shoal draft of a centerboarder, but the board is tucked under the cabin sole and doesn't interfere with the cockpit.

As long as you're going smaller, what about John Welsford's Tread Lightly, a 13-foot cruising cat yawl? John's been talking about doing an enlarged version (I think at about 15 feet) but hasn't yet finished the drawings.

By the way, if you're really interested in the Tideway 14, by all means contact Paul Fisher directly via e-mail. He has done alternate rigs for many of his designs, and can tell you better than anyone whether it would work. If it will, I suspect that he wouldn't charge much for the extra drawing needed.

[ 06-24-2005, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Steve Paskey ]

[JimD]

Life is good, Steve. Even without a bigger boat. I am interested in a heavy, small boat. If it draws two feet of water that's fine. Designs such as Tread Lightly and the cmd boats offer me little I don't already have. I've emailed with Paul Fisher about one of his other designs and he is very helpful and willing to make changes for a reasonable fee, but I like thinking out loud on the forum, getting feedback, and trying to come up my own modifications.

[Venchka]

Jim,

Check the email address in your profile.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimD]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Jim,

Check the email address in your profile.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D Thanks. I wrote back.

[Steve Paskey]

JimD wrote:
I am interested in a heavy, small boat. If it draws two feet of water that's fine.Yea, I tend to forget that not everyone lives near the Chesapeake. Took my guideboat for a row last weekend on the Jug Bay section of the Patuxant River. My first time there, and it looks like a gorgeous place to sail a small boat, except that, outside a narrow channel, there's barely 12 inches of water on top of the muck.

[Meerkat]

Jim; What was the other Selway-Fisher design you were interested in?

[Steve Paskey]

For what it's worth, you might think about a triangular sail for the main, rather than a gaff or lug. For a given sail area, the triangular sail needs a taller mast, but the C of E is farther forward.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Steve Paskey:
For what it's worth, you might think about a triangular sail for the main, rather than a gaff or lug. For a given sail area, the triangular sail needs a taller mast, but the C of E is farther forward.That's an idea to look into.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
Jim; What was the other Selway-Fisher design you were interested in?Rathlin 20 motorsailer. 20 feet long, standing headroom, gaff sloop rig.