What kind of row boat do you suggest?

[*LB]

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post and I'm new to boating . . . so please, be gentle with me.

I have wanted to get a row boat for many years and this year I've decided to finally pull the trigger. I plan to use the boat for open water fishing and rowing adventures along the southern RI coast and out to Block Island. I may have a passenger along occasionally and I will primarily launch from protected waters. I don't plan on going out in gales, but I will need a boat that can handle wind, chop and currents well.

My initial research has pointed me in the direction of various dory style boats, i.e. the Swampscott/New England/Gunner designs. I have also come across a sharp looking custom-made Whitehall that's put me under some sort of spell and I wanted to get some opinions on the Whitehall's suitability for my needs. This particular Whitehall I'm looking at has been strip-built with Western red cedar with what appears to be a frameless hull. In addition to being beautiful, I imagine the boat is also very light. I am wondering if its frameles, strip-built construction and its light weight would be a problem in the rigors of rough coastal use. If anyone has any thoughts on this or other things I should consider in choosing a boat I'd appreciate hearing them.

Also, If anyone has or knows of a used boat for sale that fits my requirements I'd also like to know about it. I've had a tough time finding any used boats to look at. Thanks for your help.

[ErikH]

Well, my initial advice might be: avoid getting an expensive custom boat until you know you like to go rowing, unless you are pretty sure you can resell it. Of course, I'm a careful sort. But long rows for the fun of it are in a certain class: "things that sound really romantic and fun but are really hard work".

Rowboats are a balance of factors. if you're skilled, and you want to go fast, you can row a sliding seat shell just about anywhere. For many people, that's a joy. i love sliders myself--while I enjoy rowing our Gloucester Light Dory around Tashmoo, I certainly wouldn't take her out for a 4 hour pleasure row. Sliding seat boats don't generally accomodate passengers if they're shells, though some wherry type designs will allow a drop in unit to be installed, like the Piandetosi rig. We have the CLC annapolis wherry, which might suit your solo needs though it's too small for passengers.

Handling currents requires speed, if you ever need to fight the current. And speed in a rowing boat costs a LOT of energy most of the time. I'd never row my dory far out into Vineyard Sound--not because she'd sink, but because I can't row against a 3 knot current for more than a few minutes before getting tired. (I haven't brought our CLC wherry with the sliding seat up there yet. I'd try that out, though, as it's so much faster) So consider rowing efficiency. Personally, i'd advise you just to avoid fast current, especially while you're learning.

Chop is often no fun to row in in any craft. But one with a sharper bow and some v to the bottom forward will often be dryer than other designs. If you're strong enough to keep the boat moving, weight helps--keeps you from stopping on every wave. Any traditinoal dory or whitehall will probably fit atht bill just fine.

Wind is easier to handle with lower freeboard, that presents less of an area for the wind to hit. It's much more relevant when there's a cross wind than when the wind is bow- or stern-on. the Bolger dory can be a real pain in this respect, as she's got a lot of windage. I've rowed some WHitehalls that are much better. high sides will make you and your pasengers feel safer if you're new to boating. they will also make your boat much harder to row.

It sound like that custom boat might be quite good for you. If it's designed by a reputable designer, AND is built as per the design specs, then i don't think you have to worry about strength unless the design is 'flat water only' or such.

Strength isn't all taht much of an issue in a rowboat, though, compared to sail or power. the stresses just aren't as high; there's only so much force you can apply with an oar. You can just take her for a test row in some decent sea; if she doesn't flex then she is probably just fine. The thwarts and sheer clamps and such will add a lot to the strength if they're done right, there's no set-in-stone need for frames.

[Bruce Hooke]

I've rowed various boats over the years, and based on that experience here is my take on a few issues:

1. If you are planning to head out into very open waters like the mouth of the bay and beyond, out to Block Island, then seaworthiness needs to take a pretty high priority. I have not done much in sliding seat boats but I can't imagine using a sliding seat setup in real seas. Sliding seat boats are also not very good for things were you need to move around a lot, like fishing. Sliding seat rowboats are from what I've seen, single purpose machines built just for straight out rowing, which does not sound like what you want. It sounds to me like you want a more versitile craft that you can use for fishing, gunkholing, picincing, etc.

2. Heavy boats are a lot of work to row so reasonable lightness is a very good thing, but some weight is good for carrying your momentum between strokes. I rowed a 15' banks style dory a fair amount when I was living on an island in Maine, but it got to be a lot of work pretty fast. It was a sturdy boat, which meant it was good for hauling supplies, but it was not light. Hauling it up a steep bank at the end of the season called for a truck or a come-along.

3. Dories in general are, however, great open water boats. The narrow bottom and sloping sides mean they handle well in seas (but feel less stable to the uninitiated). Avoid boats with a wide bottom and a broad transom. They will not row well and they will not do well in the waves.

4. In small open boats the time when their strength is most likely to be tested is in launching and landing. If you want to land and launch on exposed rocky shores or land and launch through significant surf then the boat needs to be stronger than if you will land and launch in more sheltered conditions. However, landing and launching through the surf is an art and if there is much surf running it calls for more than one person, and there are not that many exposed rocky shorelines in Rhode Island where you might conceivably land.

5. The whitehall type makes a fine rowboat and MAY be suitable for what you have in mind. I would be a bit concerned about whether a design that is really fine (narrow) in the ends would have enough bouancy to lift to the waves. I have rowed a boat similar to a catspaw dinghy (see the WoodenBoats Store's plans) in the open waters of the Maine coast and it handled quite well. This design is similar to a whitehall but it is broader and somewhat heftier overall. That boat was a fair amount of work to row, but three of us rowing two-on, one-off rowed that boat about 25 miles in two days, but we were teenagers at the time and we were very worn out at the end.

6. There are tons of boat designs out there that would, I think, be suitable for what you have in mind so I do not think you need a custom design. It may take a little work to dig up one that is already built because, as noted, there is not a big market for open water rowing boats.

[ahp]

I have rowed both a Banks dory and a Swampscot dory. Both were easy to row, but the Swampscot was much more stable and probably more seaworthy. John Gardiner's books are great and include plans for both types.

The Banks dory that I rowed was built by Sam Manning and I only had an opportunity to row it in the calm water of Good Wives River.

The Swampscot was built by a man who lived in Marblehead and it was copied from a derelict dory found on the beach by Fort Seawall. He claimed the original had been built by a professional by the name of Chamberline. I have a set of plans for it.

I rowed it at a Mystic show and tell. It was a lovely boat.

There is one type that I have no experience with but deserves your consideration, the Peapod. They were widely used by lighthouse keepers. I believe there are a lot of plans available for them as well.

[Bruce Hooke]

As a recall, Mystic Seaport has a number of small craft that can be rowed around the cove in front of the seaport. If you want to try out various traditional small boats to get a sense for how the are to row this could be a good place to do it. I do not remember just what they have. Of course this will not give you much of an idea of how these boats will handle in waves -- it would take something close to a hurricane to kick up much in the way of seas in that cove!

The WoodenBoat show in Newport would be a very good place to talk to various builders and owners of small boats to get a sense for how they handle.

[adampet]

What Bruce and Eric and ahp said. All good advice, the best being go to Mystic and row as many different boats as possible.

I happen to think that rowing a Gloucester Gull for 4 hours is a lot of fun. Right now I'm rowing a whitehall( made of that other stuff..it was free..what can I say). The Gull is better in a sea, though crosswinds are a pain in one arm . The whitehall is more stable, tracks better, but is less manuverable. The whitehall tolerates an imbalance of passengers better than the Gull,but the Gull is more comfortable with a bigger load, the freeboard providing more security. Any rowboat is a compromise of sorts, so thats why it's important to try lots of different ones.

I fish out of both of them, and I've had the Gull offshore in the Blackburn Challenge. One of my regular rowing companions has done the same things with a traditional cedar on oak whitehall.

Good luck, learn to row what you like and like what you row.

[Jack Heinlen]

Dories are fantastic boats. The Gull is a super boat for single fixed seat rowing, including in quite rough water in the hands of an experienced rower. I question its utility where you might want to carry a passenger.

The Swampscotts in the sixteen foot range would be difficult to beat for what you describe. Whitehalls are also good, but more expensive to build, and aren't quite the boat as a sixteen foot Swampscott. They can be built a variety of ways, go together cheaply, and are about the nicest shape of the type one can imagine.

There's an old saying about dories. "If out and you get into trouble with the weather, lie down in the bottom and let the boat take care of itself.."

[Stu Fyfe]

I don't think you'll find a better combination of speed, seaworthiness, rowability and of course beauty than you will in a peapod. I absolutely love rowing my Beach Pea. It will carry up to three, but rows best with myself and Maggie (our Scottish Terrier)in the stern.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid100/p61da8c11acde1743b8a8b075e9262f8f/f9e38333.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid158/p57d915c806975f7fcf87be0f7e3db329/f5204a5b.jpg

[davebrown]

If this is the first boat you have built, you might consider building a skiff first. I built a payson's gypsy and then a weekend skiff--the payson's gypsy is considered to be an easy build, but for a first-time builder it took longer than it should have. I joke that I built two boats, first one the wrong way, and then one the right way.

When I then built the skiff, it was still challenging, but took much less time. I keep a little journal of trips, and I have had that skiff out more than 60 times in a little under 2 yrs. I think that is a lot of use.

I never launched the first gypsy, though I hear my ex-wife enjoyed launching it at the local dump. I got it up to the painting point. So I built a second one recently and it is a pretty good rough water boat (technically it is a modified dory) compared to the skiff. I overbuilt it though, and it is quite heavy, much better with two oarsmen than a single.

I am putting a CLC skerrie together now, which I think will be a step further towards the stability of a swampscott.

My point: a skiff is a great first-time boat, and more rough water capable than you might think. A dory will be considerably more rough-water capable, and considerably more time-consuming to build. Fun, yes, but more difficult. The CLC kit has been a breeze so far, with one ridiculously bad error that the dummy with the glue made. I got a piece of saran wrap between the skarf on a plank set, and had to re-saw the line and re-glue. This fact is to amuse the pro-builders among us, who must get a certain amount of laughs out of us amateurs.

My 2 cents.

[Ray Frechette Jr]

If beaching a Lot is a priority than rather than a whitehall you might want to consider a traditonal salmon wherry.

Has a flat bottom section similar to a dory that allows for upright beaching and can be fitted with beech shoes to handle the abuse of beaching on rock or sand beaches . More elegant of a rower than a dory and more legant in looks, sort of a cross between a Dory and a whitehaul actually.

Can be built glued lapstrake for light weight and cost conciousness.

Also can be rigged for sail so when the tide runs foul, maybe you don't have to work so hard...

http://www.duck-trap.com/dtw.html

[Rob Hazard]

So, LB,
this topic surfaced after 3 months of dormancy. Did you find a boat?

Having lived in Westalilly myself years ago, I would second the "go to Mystic Seaport" suggestion.
I would also suggest that you look for launching sites on the Conn shore, on Fishers Is Sound. Friendlier water for rowing than the barrier beaches of RI.

Barn Island in Stonington comes to mind.
Rob

[AHall]

I vote for the gloucester light dory (stretched version) because:

relatively easy to build

approximately 15 feet on the waterline gives decent speed

flat bottom for easy beaching

handles rough water quite well (out to Block Island might be a stretch, but this boat could do it as well as any other.)

Don't talk yourself into the standard (short) version of this boat. The Stretched light dory will row circles around it.

[*LB]

Hi Guys,

After lots of research, and thanks to many great responses in this forum, I decided to go with the stretched gloucester gull. It seemed to offer the best combination of rowing speed and seaworthiness for my purposes. I found a builder in Massachusetts who builds a terrific version of this boat and I plunked my deposit down in early April. The boat should be done by early July if all goes according to schedule. Needless to say, this has been the longest couple months of my life!

To torture myself even further, my twelve year-old son and I went to Mystic Seaport's Small Craft Weekend last week and had a blast rowing all the different boats that up 'till now I've only been reading about. Fortunately, my son caught the boat bug as well, and we're already talking about building our first boat this winter. This may sound like I'm getting a little ahead of myself, but since I now read this forum regularly, I know this is just the place to go to have my new-found compulsions validated and affirmed :D .

I'll be sure and post pics on launch day - if I can just hold on until then. In the meantime, I think I'll head downstairs and caress my shiny new Shaw & Tenney oars and have another bourbon . . man, I've got it bad!

[David Bixby]

I enjoy rowing and sailing my Skerry. It is my first boat so I can't compare it to others.

I have had it out in short three foot swells, almost more of a chop, and she stays dry as a bone. I find it much more pleasant to sail her than to row her under these conditions.

The Skerry rows easily and can maintain three knots for hours without being exhausting.

There is a builders/owners forum for the Skerry at: www.get-outside.com (http://www.get-outside.com)

http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL855/2893683/5857341/76052158.jpg

[Meerkat]

I must say, after some hours in a sea kyack, I vastly prefer dacron "oars" too. smile.gif

[Scott Miller]

So, LB, after using your boat for a full season, what is your response to your choice of a Stretched Gloucester Gull?
I'm curious because I had the same question. I am considering Gardner's Modified McInnis Bateau.
Photos would be nice, if you don't mind.
-Scott

[Paul Pless]

How'd I miss this. this and the related threads are awesome, i especially like the fish ones.

So cool.

[Alan D. Hyde]

For rougher water use, consider something like a peapod that's deep enough to row while standing (facing forward).

That's what the old timers did.

And, I suspect it's the most potentially powerful, as well as the most comfortable, way to row...

Alan

[qm]

I never heard of a "Beach pea"-Sounds fakey-like Norwalk Islands sharpy or something! They are called "pea pods". I have a row boat or two which you could use for a pattern. One is a clinker-built, dory-skiff -used up until the 1960s in Boy Scout Camps for rowing. And I have two 16 ft conventional two board rowboats(each board is about 22 inches) . One of them was a livery boat from Port Chester,NY, where a family would rent a row boat on the day off and row out into the Sound porgy fishing or something--used up until the 1940s. QM Bob

[la.pirogue]

Hello,
When the Acadians came to south Louisiana 300 years ago, they brought the Creole rowing skiff with them. They had to row facing forward so they could see where they were going because of the heavy vegetation in the bayous. The old Cajuns say they rowed facing forward because they want to see where they were going not where they had been. Keith

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/p10ecf4e1f76496ebe58243e3f61df26a/f08babc8.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid200/pe7626efb176c8ecfbdccda6b6c93f14f/f08bab04.jpg.thumb

[Bilge Rat]

New guy here too, I've been wanting to ask the same question that LB posted at the beginning of this thread about choosing a rowboat and the info here has helped a lot but my situation is different so with modest aplomb and permission from LB I hereby highjack this thread smile.gif

I want to build a skiff for a friend and it will be my first boat project. I have a small wood shop and know my way around typical cabinet & house projects so I'm reasonably proficient with tools & lumber. I'm looking for suggestions on a design that would be somewhat traditional but within the buildable zone of a first-timer.

The recipient of the boat is an older guy who has spent his life on the water and in his youth worked in boatyards repairing wood tugs and commercial fish boats. He lives aboard on an old tug at anchor and he gets by by doing odd jobs in town.

This fellow had a wood skiff for many years that he used for getting to & fro in the harbor but when I recently spotted him rowing a beat-up glass pram I asked him what happened to his skiff and in his typically brief response (but with an obvious look of pain) he replied "worms got her" and he rowed on.

His use is mainly sheltered waters but he actually functions as a volunteer harbor steward around here by rescuing boats that have gone adrift, pulling logs and deadheads out of the main navigation channels and hauling materials & tools to his waterfront jobs, etc. Think "human powered tug boat". It's his long standing service to the community that inspires this project.

The required parameters include toughness, an ability to be frequently beached on gravel & rock shores, a plumb, exposed stem for pushing boats & floats, a stout transom for pushing logs stern-to, a tow bit, sculling notches, the ability to carry a load (but rarely a person, he's a loner). He's reportedly in his 70's but strong as an ox so vessel weight is not a major issue. I'm figuring probably something about 14-15 feet that rows & sculls reasonably well, can live year round in the water and is easy to bail (we get lots of rain).

I've been searching the web for an appropriate plan but most everything I've seen is either too light (flimsy), too pretty or likely beyond my capability. There need be no varnish or bronze fittings, just want to build a real workboat for someone who really deserves and needs one. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Bob

[*LB]

Hi Scott,

The short answer is I am very happy with the Stretched Gull.

One of the things I learned during the selection process was there is no "perfect boat". The best you can hope to do is try and figure out what you really want the boat for and then do your best to match up the boat's design characteristics with your needs.

In my case, I had been dreaming about a row boat for a while, so by the time I was ready to pull the trigger I had a pretty good idea of what types of stuff I wanted to use the boat for. As it turned out, the Stretched Gull was a pretty good fit for my needs.

I'm also fortunate that I live near the Mystic Seaport and was able to row a lot of the boats they have at their Boathouse. By actually rowing the different boats I was able to get a good feel for the handling characteristics of various designs. Before I had the chance to actually row some of the boats I had been harboring some misconceptions that probably would have led me to make a poor design selection. Incidentally, the Seaport has a Herreshoff designed/Gardner built boat they call "Green Machine", I was told it's a one-off design that looks very much like a Bateau, although I don't think they characterize it as such. It's the fastest boat they have in their fleet and a joy to row. It was my impression that it might not be the best boat for the open ocean (low free board and tender), but a great boat for protected waters.

One of the things I like best about the Stretched Gull is her seaworthiness. She's very corky in a rough sea and as dry as toast. I had the opportunity to do a lot of open ocean rowing and I never felt nervous despite some heavy seas and currents. One thing that did concern me a little was what I perceived to be her tendency to want to broach in a strong following sea in heavy currents. Although she never actually broached there were a few moments that required some fast oar work to keep things on the up and up. My guess would be that a round bottom boat might be less apt to broach under these conditions, but there are plenty of people on this sight who would know more about that sort of thing.

Although the Gull's high freeboard and flat bottom make for a dry and seaworthy boat she is tender and requires keeping your butt down for the most part. One of my primary reasons for getting the boat was to fish from it and it has been very well suited to the task. I had wanted to fish a couple lobster traps from the boat as well, but I don't think the secondary stability of the boat is up to the task. Unlike a Banks Dory, the Gull lacks the secondary stability necessary to haul a trap up over the gunnel, especially in a heavy sea. A round bottom boat such as a Chamberlain Gunning Dory might be better suited to that task. In fact, if I were to get another boat in the near future I would take a long look at the CGD.

I rowed the standard 15 foot Gull at the Mystic Seaport and it was a fun little boat. Very light, responsive and quick. However it was a bear to row with a passenger and nearly impossible for two people to row efficiently. The boat just never wanted to trim properly, and as a result it tracked poorly and was very sluggish. The Stretched Gull tracks much better and is faster by at least a third. At 19.5 feet the Stretched Gull accommodates two oarsmen without a problem, but it still requires some careful attention to the trim. I plan on rowing in this year's Blackburn Challenge and I hope to talk to some of the two-man teams rowing the Stretched Gull to see if they have any tips.

The Stretched Gull is a relatively fast boat, or at least fast enough for my needs without sacrificing too much in the way of seaworthiness. I think the Adirondack Guideboat and various wherries are generally a little faster if you're looking for speed. My buddy can beat me in a race with his Kayak, but he can't take a leisurely pee in a bailing jug like I can. Like I said, it's all about what you want to do in the boat.

My Stretched Gull weighs around 150lbs loaded up and I have it on a modified aluminum trailer. It's too heavy to car top, but my set up allows me to hand launch in some spots that would be impossible with a heavier boat/trailer.

Here are a couple post-launch threads I posted this summer - they include photos and more details:

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=004628

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=004751

Bob,

That sounds like a great project to work on. You might want to check out these John Gardner books - they're bound to have some good ideas: http://www.mysticseaport.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewPage&page_id=F89F2E19-B0D0-D05E-1A228F210F67ABC5

[chrisk]

Paul Gartside has some row boats (http://www.gartsideboats.com/cat.php#rowboats) that may be of interest.

Chris Kottaridis (chriskot@quietwind.net)

[ 01-17-2006, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: chrisk ]

[Bilge Rat]

Thanks for those links guys, I need to read Gardner for sure. As I continue to poke around the web I stumbled upon something that may fit the bill in Swan's "Little Gem". Anyone have any input on this boat? It caught my eye because it strikes an uncanny resemblance to my friends retired work skiff. I wonder if the size and placement of the thwarts are critical . The stem profile could be tweaked easily enough to create a push knee and the transom could sport sculling notches instead of the motor pad. I like the substantial freeboard and the external chine log. The designer's website doesn't reveal much about construction details, I suppose I could give him a call.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v234/rsdirect/Boat%20Stuff/littlegem.jpg

[Thorne]

LB -- A happy ending -- just what we likes!

;0 )

Have you tried ballast at all? Slab-sided dories were designed to handle well with several hundred pounds of fish and gear, and your stretched Gull might play a bit nicer with a few lead plates laid (NOT attached) on the bottom planks.

Bilge Rat - Have you considered Redmond's Whisp or some of the other commonly-built skiffs?

http://www.sredmond.com

[ 01-17-2006, 04:41 PM: Message edited by: Thorne ]

[uncas]

I really like my Lawley 1901 design...rows like a dream..It is...I would say a dory....
perhaps a bit long...but....I have discovered that I have more fun rowing it than puttering along under seagull engine power.
Can't wait to get those 8' ash oars with curved mahogany blades....

[BrianY]

re: Sawn's "Little Gem"

I have the plans for this boat. It's a basic plywood skiff that should be very easy and quick to build using basic materials. The external chine makes for a simple assembly and also gives some protection to the bottom/side joint which might come in handy when pushing or pulling debris around the harbor. The boat can also handle a small outboard motor which is a plus.

I don't know anything about the boat's performance. I have seen one on a trailer and it's a nice looking skiff in a functional/durable sort of way. It sounds like it would be very well suited to the use you describe

[Bilge Rat]

Thorne - that whisp is a nice boat but I believe it would be too light for the application. That might be a good candidate for me if I get bitten by the boat building bug and want to do a second project.

Brian - thanks for the info. I take it you bought the plans but never built Little Gem. If so, are you entitled to resell the plans if you wished to do so? Can you tell me what thickness plywood is called out for the boat and do the plans indicate finished hull weight and load capacity? Thanks again -

Bob

[BrianY]

Bilge Rat -

The question of the ethics of reselling plans for a boat that you didn't build has been discussed here and there is no consensus. Some say yes, some say not without the buyer paying something to the designer. It also appears that different designers have different views on the subject. I guess you have to let your conscience be your guide. In any case, I'm going to hold onto my set of plans because I might just end up building the thing someday.

Anyway, the plans (which are extremely detailed and complete) call for 1/4" marine ply for the sides and 3/8" for the bottom (2 4x8 sheets each or 1 4x14 sheet of each if you can get it).

Capacity: According to the notes included with the plans, "The Coast Guard carrying capcity is 895 pounds (575 as a motorboat) which is quite a bit for so small a craft..." and "There is enough rocker on the bottom aft so that the transom will not drag with the weight of a 200 pound person in the stern." and "A flatbottom rowboat is allowed considerable carrying capacity using U.S. Coast Guard guidelines and formulas - more than 800 pounds. However, if carrying this weight, I would do so only in calm waters and would not operate a motor."

I can't find any indication of the hull weight.

FWIW - The designer estimates that the boat can be built and ready to paint in about 55 hours.

[ 01-20-2006, 09:10 AM: Message edited by: BrianY ]

[Bilge Rat]

Brian, thanks for the info and based on that I will order the plans from Swan. I'm not so sure about the 55 hours, however . . . I've been known to take 3 days to hang a door smile.gif

[ 01-21-2006, 01:00 AM: Message edited by: Bilge Rat ]