Source for Spectra Rope?

[Chris Setzler]

I've not had much luck with Google searches for this product. Most sites are not set up to sell anything or require the purchase of large quantities. I'm looking for 3-6mm size range. Will use it to rig my Whilley Boat for it's balanced lug sail using Michael Storer's advice on his GIS Website. Thanks for any help.

[Captain Blight]

Waste Marine sells it at whopping prices.

[Noah]

When I was searching, Redden marine had the best online pricing:
http://www.reddenmarine.com/marine-supplies.cfm/multipurpose-amsteel-blue/samson-amstlblu316/amsteel-blue-3-16.html

[John Turpin]

Defender is having a huge sale right now. Earlier this week, I bought a ton of line from them and saved a bundle. I'm not sure if they have exactly what you're after, but you might take a look at what they have. http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1|118&id=311417

[KAIROS]

Mauri Pro Sailing consistently has line at very near the lowest price on the web. Verify that what you want is in stock if you order. Had problems with items not showing up for a month because of backorder.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Commonly found in racing dinghy shops.

Dyneema
http://www.sailboats.co.uk/Catalogue~Marlow_Excel_D12____4mm_BI_2056kgs~p_TY0 057~c4586.html
http://www.sailboats.co.uk/Catalogue~Marlow_Excel_Racing_2mm~p_KP2527~c4586.h tml
Same stuff from a chemical point of view.

[JimConlin]

R&W Rope Warehouse (http://www.rwrope.com/) in MA
APS (http://www.apsltd.com/)in Annapolis

[dredbob]

In addition to APS mentioned above, another performance dinghy oriented company is Layline.

Layline (http://www.layline.com/home.php)

[stevedwyer]

RW Rope Warehouse is where I get English Braids three strand. They are a great source for traditional blocks and hardware as well.

Here's another supplier to check for spectra and the like...
http://www.neropes.com (http://www.neropes.com/)

[Noah]

BTW, You can always search Ebay. I think the Robline is nice looking stuff, and the Ocean Grey would look good on a traditional boat:

http://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=m38&_nkw=Robline&_sacat=See-All-Categories

[Thorne]

I really like both the faux hemp (Hempex, Posh, Buff) and real hemp from R&W for my little trad-look boat. I use the Spectra for fail-safe lines like CB pennants and rudder uphauls.
http://www.rwrope.com/traditional_rigging/rope_for_Running_Rigging.htm

But for sheets where tension and stretch isn't critical, a larger diameter softer-handed line might be preferable to the expensive (and hence usually narrower) Spectra.

[Hwyl]

But for sheets where tension and stretch isn't critical, a larger diameter softer-handed line might be preferable to the expensive (and hence usually narrower) Spectra.

Cart before the horse there Monsieur Chapeau, Spectra is thinner because it's stronger.

[Thorne]

I just meant how it feels on my tender little fingers -- I prefer a fatter line for sheets. On a small boat like the GIS, thinner line for halyards and tensioning lines will be great, which is why I'm sure Mik recommends the Spectra.

I use Spectra for my one and only brass tube cleat, where the notch was chewing up several types of regular marine line I tried -- but the Spectra shows no wear at all after a lot of hard use.
http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/images_products/103.jpg

[Hwyl]

I admire your ability to work your rudder into many of your answers. It deserves it's own thread, are you still sailing with it up?

[Thorne]

Yep. (grin)

[Todd Bradshaw]

Why would you need Spectra rope for a balanced lugsail? The sailcloth itself and the spars both have enough stretch/bend/flex that you'll probably never get to the point where the Spectra is doing what Spectra is designed to do.

[Bill Huson]

I purchased two 50' rolls of 3.8mm Spyderline (Dyneema) from West Marine - $22 and change each. Try Sailrite or Duckworks if you don't like WM.

[Clinton B Chase]

Todd, Low stretch is good for the halyard and downhaul. What would you recommend?

[Chris Setzler]

Todd, I believe Michael's argument is, as Clinton says, low stretch translates to less adjusting during the day. It would seem to me changing wind conditions could still require adjustment of the downhaul. I really do not have experience with this rig at all.

Chris

[Todd Bradshaw]

Gee, I wonder how the lug sailors of old ever survived before the development of Spectra and Kevlar for halyards and downhauls? This is all about luff tension. My point is that the weave of the sail panels on a vertically-cut lugsail intersects the luff on a rather steep bias - which tends to yield a lot of cloth stretch. The luff should be well reinforced to take the strain if the sail is properly made, but even so, there will be far more stretch in the cloth than Spectra lines have, and you will probably never be applying enough tension to really stress the Spectra into the range where it becomes worth buying. Before you get to that point, the cloth will yield. On a balanced lug, the boom sticking out in fromt of the mast is also likely to be bending (yield) well before you ever get to the need for Spectra (not to mention any additional stretch or tension migration that may be happening where the sail is connected to its spars). So you have no-stretch lines top and bottom pulling on two parts (cloth and boom) that have, and always will have, a certain amount of built-in stretch or flex. You are not going to stabilize or eliminate these characteristics with Spectra lines, so you might as well save some money, buy some decent low-stretch line and adjust as needed while you sail (which probably isn't really going to be needed all that much).

If you seriously want to build a super-low-stretch system, then you're looking at a radial sailcut with Kevlar panels, running the warp yarns directly along the lines of stress, sleeve attachments and most likely carbon spars. At that point, your Spectra lines would actually have something solid to pull against, but until that point, I think you're wasting your money by replacing only part of the system with high-tech, no-stretch stuff. The drawback that comes with such a system is that it offers virtually no adjustability. The shape you sew is the shape you get and it will maintain that shape until you apply so much tension that the seams blow apart.

A balanced lug is a pretty simple sail that can work quite well in most situations on a small boat. If it's rigged properly, it doesn't need an awful lot of on-the-fly adjustment. Any adjustment that it may need is pretty quick and simple and it's fairly forgiving. I just get the feeling that an awful lot of folks are way over-thinking some of this stuff. If you have any sort of decent halyard and downhaul, you should be able to get reasonable luff tension and your boat should sail just fine without the need to resort to exotic line.

[Chris Setzler]

Thanks everyone and especially to Todd who expresses the possibility the whole endeavor is unnecessary. would love to see a debate between Todd and Michael Storer on this subject. Until that happens, I think i'll go with Todd's advice.

Chris

[Todd Bradshaw]

I don't believe there really is much of a debate to be had. You can certainly use Spectra line and it will work fine if you have nothing better to do with your money. But due to the other forms of slack/flex/stretch built into the system and not at all easy to eliminate, it can't perform the same way that it would on something like a Melges 24. Lugsails had been used quite sucessfully for centuries before these new lines were even invented and the idea that a recreational sailor "needs" to go out and spend that kind of money for lines on a simple daysailer, or that it will make a dramatic improvement in boatspeed, pointing angle, etc. is just silly. The guy who wins the race is most likely going to be the one that is the best sailor, not the one with the most expensive halyard.

[waynec]

. . . the idea that a recreational sailor "needs" to go out and spend that kind of money for lines on a simple daysailer, or that it will make a dramatic improvement in boatspeed, pointing angle, etc. is just silly.

The guy who wins the race is most likely going to be the one that is the best sailor, not the one with the most expensive halyard.
Aw Gee Whiz..., you know very well the "Coolness Factor" is what we really like to spend money on more than anything else. Function be damned if it looks and sounds cool we'll pay $1 or more extra per foot.

Spectra ... HMPE (high-modulus polyethylene),
Honeywell (USA) trade name = Spectra ... Royal DSM (The Netherlands) trade name = Dyneema

Everybody makes rope from Spectra/Dyneema these days. But, check out the stretch for your length and load and compare it to tried & true, pre-stretched polyester double braid.

http://www.neropes.com/ProductImages/MARINE_StaSet.gif

... find the rest of the story by looking beyond the Buzz at the technical data provided by any or all of these rope manufacturers.

New England Ropes
http://www.neropes.com (http://www.neropes.com/)

Yale Cordage
http://www.yalecordage.com (http://www.yalecordage.com/)

Samson Rope
http://www.samsonrope.com

Marlow Rope Ltd
http://www.marlowropes.com

English Braids
http://www.englishbraids.com (http://www.englishbraids.com/)

[JimConlin]

On Damfino, after spars, sails, tramps, Core-cell, carbon and epoxy, I was conscious of costs. I found two places where I thought the hot-stuff cordage was worthwhile:
The main halyard bears loads of close to a ton and is hauled on once per season. It was gonna be either spectra or wire with a tail splice. I used 5/16" spectra. It's not pleasant to handle and is prone to slipping on the cleat, but the head of the sail stays where it should be.
For the steering linkage, I used 6mm. vectran which is suitably low-stretch, but not as chafe-resistant as I'd like. It'll be replaced with Dyneema this spring.

Particularly on a smaller boat, lines are sized to be gripped by hands and are consequently oversized for their loads. I would not expect to see many cases where the loads on small boat rigging justified the fancy stuff.

[waynec]

... I would not expect to see many cases where the loads on small boat rigging justified the fancy stuff.
Exactly...,

Now - with your boat, you have an application AND you've done the math. There's only one reason I can think of to rig a dinghy with state of the art racing lines..., they don't hold nearly as much water.

In the case of sheets there's a decision point for a skipper of a boat that sometimes takes water in the cockpit, soaking the running rigging. A wet sheet can prevent a mainsail or jib from broad reaching or running in very light air due to its saturated weight.

So, do you go with a lightweight polypropylene that takes no water, but will only last a couple of seasons of hard use. Or, do you go with a Spectra that's a little heavier, stays much drier, and will stand up to years of competitive sailing.

And, I agree, the hand (feel) of all the new materials is either slippery or abrasive in comparison to the spun polyester double braid or twist that's been the tradition for nearly half a century so add a pair of sailing gloves to the shopping list as well if you go high-er tech.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Gee, I wonder how the lug sailors of old ever survived before the development of Spectra and Kevlar for halyards and downhauls? This is all about luff tension.
..


:DThat was a good one Todd.

[JimConlin]

I can remember when, in desperation, we rigged marline jib sheets on a 110. The new stuff gives 'em a little more range.