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View Full Version : Israel was a mistake



ishmael
03-24-2010, 03:10 PM
I understand the reasons for it, I've got Hebrew blood, but this idea of a Jewish state in Palastine was a mistake.

There is never going to be peace there, because it was a mistake.

The current conflict around Jerusalem is just a minor coin.

Flying Orca
03-24-2010, 04:29 PM
I agree, Jack. Unfortunately the Israelis, the Palestinians, and the rest of the world appear to be stuck with it. The question is how we move on from here.

Keith Wilson
03-24-2010, 04:31 PM
Too late now.

PeterSibley
03-24-2010, 04:32 PM
Agreed , it's like a thorn under the ME saddle .

WX
03-24-2010, 04:59 PM
Israel wants a Jewish state with Jerusalem as it's capital. Palestine wants a Jewish state with Jerusalem as it's capital. Neither will get what they want. There is only one logical outcome and that is a combined state with no state religion...being non secular in this regard. The citizens are free to follow their own religious beliefs as long as they do not impinge on the state.
of course the above may be logical but the reality is not and is in fact very far from it.
The best thing that could happen would be for the US to pull out all financial and military funding, this hopefully would force Israel into a position where it would have to listen to the Palestinians.
There is always hope, after all we saw the Berlin Wall fall in our time.

Rick-Mi
03-24-2010, 05:10 PM
I understand the reasons for it, I've got Hebrew blood, but this idea of a Jewish state in Palastine was a mistake.

There is never going to be peace there, because it was a mistake.



Israel is in their land to stay. If you think it was a mistake, you're going to have to take it up with God.


I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them," says the Lord your God.

Amos 9:14-15

BarnacleGrim
03-24-2010, 05:20 PM
If you look at civil rights, standard of living, etc., a Jewish state in Palestine is a pretty good idea. If only Hamas could be so pragmatic.

Stretch
03-24-2010, 05:45 PM
Israel is in their land to stay. If you think it was a mistake, you're going to have to take it up with God.

Amos 9:14-15

I have taken it to God and she is also confused

LeeG
03-24-2010, 07:11 PM
Jack, have you been noticing some thing different?

WX
03-24-2010, 08:33 PM
Israel is in their land to stay. If you think it was a mistake, you're going to have to take it up with God.


I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them," says the Lord your God.

Amos 9:14-15
Some bloke wrote that, not a god.

skuthorp
03-25-2010, 12:48 AM
Has'nt been there long enough (1948?) to tell whether it's a permanent fixture or not. It might seem a big problem to us in our short lifespan, but in Middle Eastern history terms it's just a hiccup as yet. And a hiccup that depends on a great and not so powerful any longer friend. The US's power was unchallenged as long as the threat of it was enough. Afghanistan and Iraq have exposed their feet of clay and Israel may yet find itself on the end of a cooling attitude if only for cost reasons. OTOH can the US's reputation afford to let the 'market' decide?

seafox
03-25-2010, 02:38 AM
jews were there first. and they came back in the late 1800s when it was a pretty much deserted provance of the ottoman empire. the empire made a deal with the jews where they were to get from the other side of the mountians east of the dead sea to the coast
their is one jewish home land their are what 32 moslem countries? a lot of the " palistenians" moved in to the area after the jews had come because they made a viberant economy and further many "palistenians" moved into the refuge camps after the war of 48 because the UN was going away free food.
the area after 1918 was called the transjordan. britian cut off the larger part and created jordan. then it tried to split the remainder between the Jews and the Moslems. the Jews would have settled for it but were attacked by 5 different armys of moslems and they beat them. they have won the right to the land I think the biggest mistake was not simple imcorperating the west bank and the golan heights into isreal so they had a defensable country.

are you going to say the texicans have to give texas back to mexico?

the answer is to move the " palistenians" to some ,moslem country hopefully far away from isreal and simply get on with life

Paul G.
03-25-2010, 03:00 AM
Israel is in their land to stay. If you think it was a mistake, you're going to have to take it up with God.


I will bring back my exiled people Israel; they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them. They will plant vineyards and drink their wine; they will make gardens and eat their fruit. I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them," says the Lord your God.

Amos 9:14-15

Groan...

Religious nuts on the starboard bow

http://sxmprivateeye.com/files/images/Jesus%20Fruit%20and%20Nut.JPG

WX
03-25-2010, 04:53 AM
hey Seafox, you really get excited over some topics don't you? I kan thell.:D
I think your version of history is just a tad wrong mate.

ishmael
03-25-2010, 05:12 AM
Jeff,

I didn't say that Jews shouldn't live there. Jews and anyone else ought to live wherever they want, and yes, there were a lot of Jews in Palestine before 1948. But formalizing the matter into a state, post WW II, has caused nothing but trouble. How many wars have they fought over what is a fairly barren bit of dirt? Why?

As to the Biblical prophesies, I've yet to have anyone show me that this was prophesied. People make things up out of the mish mash that is large parts of the Hebrew Testament--all the time.

None of which justifies attacks, yet when a young man with time on his hands and the ideological fervor bends a bit whacko they get it in their heads. Allah is no different than Jehovah. They are both terrorists, if you choose to read them that way.

Anyway, your assignment, if you choose to accept, is to find me a passage in the Hebrew Testament that says this has to happen.

skuthorp
03-25-2010, 05:29 AM
Well Ish, those more interested in such matters will no doubt oblige, I am more interested in the US's continued support for Israel. May I venture that it is a stable friendly in the midst of a plethora of less stable and less friendlies that the US, and indeed europe likes to keep an eye on?

George.
03-25-2010, 06:53 AM
jews were there first.

No they weren't. They moved there and killed and enslaved all the people who were there first. They committed one of the earliest recorded genocides to get the land from the original owners. It's all in the Bible, read it.

bob winter
03-25-2010, 06:57 AM
Whole thing is a damn mess and I can't see any reason to expect any improvement in my lifetime. Too many wingnuts on both sides.

Harbormaster
03-25-2010, 07:03 AM
Whole thing is a damn mess and I can't see any reason to expect any improvement in my lifetime. Too many wingnuts on both sides.

I'm with Bob on this one, but it wouldn't be any better if all of the Jews were gone and it was another Muslim country. Moderate stasis maybe the best that can be hoped for, and that's more likely now than if we just let the Arabs, the Palestinians, the Lebanese, the Jordanians and the Persians fight it out.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
03-25-2010, 08:09 AM
I understand the reasons for it, I've got Hebrew blood, but this idea of a Jewish state in Palastine was a mistake.


So was firebombing Dresden, but in the wake and anger of horrific tragedies, you get strong counter-reactions. Dresden grew out of the bombing of London. And support for the idea of Israel (which had been proposed by Zionists as far back as the turn of the century) grew out of the discoveries at the end of the war of six million murdered. I know what you are saying, the Palestinians didn't do the murdering, but the Jewish refugees of Germany didn't much feel like hanging around. And Britain controlled Transjordan, so they generously carved out a piece for the Jews. This was not without prior discussion between the Jewish agencies and Jordan:


The United States extended de jure recognition to the Government of Transjordan and the Government of Israel on the same day, January 31, 1949.[29]Clea Bunch said that "President Truman crafted a balanced policy between Israel and its moderate Hashemite neighbours when he simultaneously extended formal recognition to the newly created state of Israel and the Kingdom of Transjordan. These two nations were inevitably linked in the President's mind as twin emergent states: one serving the needs of the refugee Jew, the other absorbing recently displaced Palestinian Arabs. In addition, Truman was aware of the private agreements that existed between Jewish Agency leaders and King Abdullah I of Jordan. Thus, it made perfect sense to Truman to favour both states with de jure recognition.

I personally would have carved out a large chunk of land from Germany. Hindsight is 20/20, but in retrospect, the antisemitic Europeans would have been no worse than those in the middle east, at least once they were disarmed by the allies after the war. But that is not current reality, which is that Israel is there to stay. And they will use "The Big One" before getting pushed off of it. Having said that, the Israeli government needs to keep their word, and that is why Obama is pressuring them, after they agreed to no more settlements in that area and now they are building them anyway.

J P
03-25-2010, 04:20 PM
Quote from this TimesOnline (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article7076431.ece) article:


After failing to extract a written promise of concessions on Jewish settlements, Mr Obama walked out of his meeting with Mr Netanyahu but invited him to stay at the White House, consult with advisors and “let me know if there is anything new”, a US congressman who spoke to the Prime Minister said today.





... "palistenians" moved into the refuge camps after the war of 48 because the UN was going away free food.

I wasn't around in '48 but I saw a lot of Palestinian refugee camps in the 60's and early 70's. I was young but I'm certain those people did not chose to be there for the "free food". :mad: