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View Full Version : Damn the Oceans, Full Speed Ahead!



George.
03-24-2010, 02:45 PM
On the goddamned industrial fisheries, that is. :mad:


Delegates to a United Nations conference on endangered species voted down three of four proposals to protect sharks on Tuesday, handing another victory to Japan, China and countries opposed to the involvement of the international authorities in regulation of ocean fish.

Whales, tuna, sharks, let's catch 'em all and eat them and feed them to our pigs. Then we can turn to their prey, and compress it into fish sticks once it becomes too small and weird to pass off as "cod" or "sea bass".

CITES, it appears, will not be able to do at sea even the little good that it does on land. I predict that we wont stop until it all turns into a cesspool, barren except for GM plastic-feeding tilapia.

Why is it always damned Asia? Tiger pricks, rhino horns, whale sushi, shark fins... why can't they get it up without ravaging the global commons?

TimH
03-24-2010, 02:49 PM
I heard their pricks are but an inch long. Probably has something to do with it.

TimH
03-24-2010, 02:57 PM
Farley Mowat is predicting the 6th great extinction - human induced.

“life itself – not human life – is the ultimate miracle upon this earth.”
-Farley Mowat

TimH
03-24-2010, 02:59 PM
And look at Easter Island. Not a scrap of vegetation laeft of what was once a lush green forest full of rare species.

Human nature is to eat yourself out of house and home.

Ian McColgin
03-24-2010, 03:00 PM
As species go, we're pretty nasty. I don't think we can afford to give up the stuggle to save our oceans and save our planet and save ourselves.

Breakaway
03-24-2010, 03:06 PM
Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death. --Dr Zaius in Planet of the Apes

(http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063442/quotes?qt0482670)

Hal Forsen
03-24-2010, 04:05 PM
When all the trees have been cut down,
when all the animals have been hunted,
when all the waters are polluted,
when all the air is unsafe to breathe,
only then will you discover you cannot eat money.

:confused: :( :mad:

rufustr
03-24-2010, 04:24 PM
And some here decry the efforts of Sea Shepherd.

No one else is as visibly active in these matters.

I contribute to their cause.

http://www.seashepherd.org/

David G
03-24-2010, 04:34 PM
In the year 2525:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izQB2-Kmiic

paladin
03-24-2010, 04:41 PM
In the year 2525
If man is still alive
If woman can survive
They may find

In the year 3535
Ain't gonna need to tell the truth, tell no lies
Everything you think, do, or say
Is in the pill you took today

In the year 4545
Ain't gonna need your teeth, won't need your eyes
You won't find a thing to do
Nobody's gonna look at you

In the year 5555
Your arms are hanging limp at your sides
Your legs not nothing to do
Some machine is doing that for you

In the year 6565
Ain't gonna need no husband, won't need no wife
You'll pick your son, pick your daughter too
From the bottom of a long black tube

In the year 7510
If God's a-comin' he ought to make it by then
Maybe he'll look around himself and say
Guess it's time for the Judgement day

In the year 8510
God's gonna shake his mighty head
He'll either say I'm pleased where man has been
Or tear it down and start again

In the year 9595
I'm kinda wondering if man's gonna be alive
He's taken everything this old earth can give
And he ain't put back nothing

Now it's been 10,000 years
Man has cried a billion tears
For what he never knew
Now man's reign is through
But through the eternal night
The twinkling of starlight
So very far away
Maybe it's only yesterday

In the year 2525
If man is still alive
If woman can survive
They may find

In the year 3535
Ain't gonna need to tell the truth, tell no lies
Everything you think, do or say
Is in the pill you took today ....(fading



I hate that friggin song......
It hit the charts as I came back from Vietnam...I had gone to work for a company in Okla City as my first job while attending college......my assignment was to build a high speed tape duplicating studio for a pirate tape manufacturing company, and that was the master tape I used to synchronize the machines.......

mmd
03-24-2010, 04:43 PM
I'm gonna call you on that one, rufustr. Please see below a short list of ocean-ecology action groups, just from Canada. I am sure that there are many more within and without my country. None of them, however, ram ships at sea to make their point.

Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society
David Suzuki Foundation
Ecology Action Centre
Living Oceans Society
Sierra Club of Canada
Ecology Action Centre
Jane Goodall Institute of Canada
The Atlantic Coastal Action Program
Canadian Ocean Habitat Protection Society (COHPS)
Atlantic Coastal Action Program
Conservation Council Of New Brunswick
Federation of Nova Scotia Naturalists
Atlantic Salmon Federation
Marine Conservation Biology Institute

WX
03-24-2010, 04:46 PM
It seems the Human being is not capable of reacting to potential threats, only existing ones that are already visibly threatening.

rufustr
03-24-2010, 04:52 PM
We have had this discussion before Mike, and I agree with you that there are many more Organisations trying to prevent the raping of the Environment.

At some point we have to make a much more visible stand against these nations who will continue to illegally or even legally take species to extinction.

The legal and polite methods are useless against the thugs who think all the creatures of the oceans can be hunted to endangered species status with impunity.

paladin
03-24-2010, 04:55 PM
Michael...can we'un's use torpedoes.......simple to make it stabilize 3-6 feet down and run in a straight line.........or if's someone wants to donate 100 mil to the cause, I know where to find a nice sub, all recently outfitted......just submerge, sail below them, release a magnetic mine, and leave, quietly......

TimH
03-24-2010, 04:56 PM
I'm gonna call you on that one, rufustr. Please see below a short list of ocean-ecology action groups, just from Canada. I am sure that there are many more within and without my country. None of them, however, ram ships at sea to make their point.

Canadian Parks and Wilderness Society
David Suzuki Foundation
Ecology Action Centre
Living Oceans Society
Sierra Club of Canada
Ecology Action Centre
Jane Goodall Institute of Canada
The Atlantic Coastal Action Program
Canadian Ocean Habitat Protection Society (COHPS)
Atlantic Coastal Action Program
Conservation Council Of New Brunswick
Federation of Nova Scotia Naturalists
Atlantic Salmon Federation
Marine Conservation Biology Institute

They are so effective nobody has ever heard of them.

mmd
03-24-2010, 04:57 PM
rufustr, whether you believe that other ecology-action groups are as effective as SeaSheperd is an opinion that you are certainly entitled to, but to boldly state that "no one else is as visibly active in these matters" is not true, and I've called you on it. If, however, you had stated that "no one else is as violently active in these matters...", I would have to agree with you.

Edit to add: Maybe not in your neighbourhood, TimH.

TimH
03-24-2010, 05:04 PM
It is not too difficult to quantify the results Sea Sheperds have realized. Those other groups?

BrianW
03-24-2010, 05:09 PM
Until they figure out how to make some money off the deal, like carbon credits, the UN is pretty much a useless group of wannabes.

Only real purpose is to facilitate keeping your enemies close.

mmd
03-24-2010, 05:12 PM
Quantify Sea Shepherd results, please. Facts & figures only...

TimH
03-24-2010, 05:43 PM
Not the right thread for this, but here goes:

Peaceful solutions sometimes are inadequate. We didnt break from England by peaceful methods. We didnt pound the south into oblivion with peaceful methods. Sometimes you need methods that work.

The governments of New Zealand and Australia have not saved a single whale in 23 years of diplomatic negotiations.
The Greenpeace Foundation has not saved a single whale during their campaigns where they hung banners and documented the slaughter of the whales.
The Sea Shepherd Conservation Society cut the quota by 84 in 2005/2006, 500+ in 2006/2007(numbers lowered by contribution of accidental fire unrelated to Sea Shepherd on the Nisshin Maru), some 400 whales in 2007/2008, and 380 whales in 2008/2009. We are confident that Sea Shepherd will cut the quota in half for 2009/2010.
Sea Shepherd receives the most criticism and provokes the most controversy, but the reality is that the Sea Shepherd approach has proven to be the most successful at cutting the kill numbers of whales in the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary.

Breakaway
03-24-2010, 07:18 PM
Well, apparently, the Norwegians and Icelanders don't give a rats behind about Sea Shepherd's work. According to this article, (http://news.softpedia.com/news/Norway-Unilaterally-Upped-its-Minke-Whale-Quota-129238.shtml)they have both upped their quotas dramatically.

paladin
03-24-2010, 08:50 PM
Dunno about Norwegians but Iceland hasn't slowed down.....I've been to their whale dis assembly operations.

rufustr
03-25-2010, 02:33 AM
Thanks Tim.

The only way significant areas of Tasmania were saved, was by people who were prepared to stand in front of bulldozers refusing to move in the face of extreme threats, thereby generating publicity and bringing the issue to National and World attention.

Now these areas are recognised as invaluable, but still Governments and Commercial interests plan to rape irreplaceable assets.

Where does the line in the sand get drawn, why do we have to wait till fish and other species become depleted to the point of not recovering?

WX
03-25-2010, 04:56 AM
To really make a difference it does take some one to stand in from of the dozer.

George.
03-25-2010, 05:36 AM
Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed.

Not true. Chimps kill for lust and greed. So do most territorial animals. And many predators kill for sport.

skuthorp
03-25-2010, 05:47 AM
It seems the Human being is not capable of reacting to potential threats, only existing ones that are already visibly threatening.

We're a short term thinking species, opportunist. Our evolution, (or our design if you will) does not allow for long term thinking, we want it now. Amongst the ongoing great extinction of species may be ours. I wonder if that was part of the 'design' too, a self destruct function built in.

Popeye
03-25-2010, 06:45 AM
my neighbors have nice fluffy well rooted maple trees , they say pruning helps

mmd
03-25-2010, 07:20 AM
The Canadian Whale Institute (never heard of them, have you...) successfully pursuaded shipping companies, Transport Canada, and the International Maritime Organization to re-route shipping through the Bay of Fundy and Gulf of Maine to avoid areas where the Humpback, Fin, Sei and highly-endangered Atlantic Right whales are known to congregate. Although this added to the distances (and related expense) that ships had to travel to get to northern Maine and southern New Brunswick and Nova Scotian ports, the change reduced by an estimated 80% the possibility of ships ramming whales and killing or injuring them. This was accomplished by good science, intensive lobbying, and building good working relationships with the players involved.

The results were so positive that the example - and process - was used to have shipping lanes into Boston's harbour re-routed around Stellwagen Bank Marine Sanctuary.

No ships were rammed to win this change.

Sorry guys; I believe as strongly as you do that the hunting of whales needs to stop, but I also believe every bit as strongly that the Sea Shepherd's way of stopping it is wrong. There has to be another way; there is always another way.

Popeye
03-25-2010, 07:31 AM
hunting of whales needs to stop is there a reason why ?

is it scientific ?

Dumah
03-25-2010, 07:57 AM
On the subject of torpedoes, don't anybody remind Capt'n Watson of the availability of three "Oberon" class submarines for $60,000 each. Unaware of the final results, however "Okanogan" spent time at Shearwater haaving her hull thickness checked..........................Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Breakaway
03-25-2010, 08:00 AM
Not true. Chimps kill for lust and greed. So do most territorial animals. And many predators kill for sport.

I knew that George. :) I had just watched the movie and the quote seemed thematically appropriate to the thread.

George.
03-25-2010, 08:03 AM
The problem is not our behavior. It is our numbers.

Emma56
03-25-2010, 08:11 AM
Hey Dumah I like that boat in your picture What is she?

Popeye
03-25-2010, 08:13 AM
" many predators kill for sport "

animals drink beer and attend sporting events , who knew

John Smith
03-25-2010, 08:15 AM
Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death. --Dr Zaius in Planet of the Apes

(http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0063442/quotes?qt0482670)
The Bronx Zoo has a place labeled: The most dangerous species on earth. It is a mirror.

George.
03-25-2010, 08:20 AM
" many predators kill for sport "

animals drink beer and attend sporting events , who knew

That's not sport.

Popeye
03-25-2010, 08:20 AM
" Chimps kill for lust and greed "

i bet they could be bought off with enough bananas

John Smith
03-25-2010, 08:26 AM
It seems the Human being is not capable of reacting to potential threats, only existing ones that are already visibly threatening.

True. Look how good we are at protecting ourselves agains the last threat. A guy tries to blow up a plane with his shoe, and now everyone's shoes are checked.

When I was a boy, we could swim in Raritan Bay. Then swimming in that Bay was not such a good idea, do to pollution.

Meanwhile, good Old Rush, who was younger then, was on the radio claiming man is not capable of polluting the planet.

None is so blind, as they say. Most people like movies with happy endings, and those people like hearing what they want to hear.

TimH
03-25-2010, 09:41 AM
Thanks Tim.

The only way significant areas of Tasmania were saved, was by people who were prepared to stand in front of bulldozers refusing to move in the face of extreme threats, thereby generating publicity and bringing the issue to National and World attention.

Now these areas are recognised as invaluable, but still Governments and Commercial interests plan to rape irreplaceable assets.

Where does the line in the sand get drawn, why do we have to wait till fish and other species become depleted to the point of not recovering?

Same with the California Redwoods. Were it not for people willing to put themselves at risk by camping out in the canopy and chaining themselves to the trees, Some of the most significant stands would not be there today. I thank them for giving me the opportunity to go down there and see what would otherwise be gone. If I had kids I would be even more thankful.

Popeye
03-25-2010, 10:48 AM
"Despite efforts by the best trained firemen in the world, coniferous forests, chaparral, and similar vegetation will periodically burn. It behooves us, therefore, as scientists, laymen, and environmentally concerned citizens to learn all we can about the natural role of fire in our wildlands and to support intelligent management based on this knowledge. This is particularly true of our national parks and wilderness areas, where natural processes are supposed to run their course, as nearly as possible.
As Research Biologist at Sequoia-Kings Canyon National Parks, my primary research interests are the impact of fires on the sequoia-mixed conifer forest ecosystem and the role of fire in maintaining natural environmental conditions in this and other vegetation types in the Sierra Nevada. Related studies are being carried out by other investigators in government agencies and universities.
Our interests are in part academic, for we hope to learn basic truths which will help us understand the complex interrelationships of this forest ecosystem. But our studies are also aimed at gathering the facts necessary to insure that this ecosystem, with all its diversity, will be so managed to as to perpetuate the dynamic processes which in an evolutionary sense have given us the sequoia-mixed conifer forest.
In certain higher elevation forests of Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks, it has been National Park Service policy since 1968 to let lightning fires burn unless human life or property will be endangered. In our lower elevation sequoia-mixed conifer forests, however, a considerable fire hazard has built up because of the exclusion of natural fire during the past half century. Hence a program of prescribed burning has been adopted as the technique for restoring fire to this ecosystem. In order to effectively carry out this management objective, we must know far more than we do at present about the natural role of fire in this forest."


~ Naturalist 23 (1): 26-37, Spring 1972



where the sheps at ?

Popeye
03-25-2010, 12:32 PM
And some here decry the efforts of Sea Shepherd.

No one else is as visibly active in these matters.

I contribute to their cause.

not smart , the sheps use spin tactics , they demonize the 'enemy' , they propagate hatred , encourage violence and mistrust and they fabricate and lie by omitting fact , literally they do

they attack people at their workplace

i couldn't say it if it wasn't true

TimH
03-25-2010, 03:21 PM
The Sea Sheperds cause the Japanese to spend their time running away or playing tag instead of killing whales.
Thats all that matters. Talking wont do it. They can talk and shoot at the same time.

seanz
03-25-2010, 03:22 PM
No ships were rammed to win this change.

.

Recently a boat was rammed and sunk in the Southern Ocean.....suddenly there was a lot more diplomacy between the three countries involved.
The details of the ramming do bring Sea Shepherd tactics into question though......it seems, that if they want to achieve a result, they've been trying to sink the wrong boats.
;)

Breakaway
03-25-2010, 06:37 PM
The Bronx Zoo has a place labeled: The most dangerous species on earth. It is a mirror.
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41t-BQ9XYOL._SS500_.jpg

Popeye
03-26-2010, 06:57 AM
The Sea Sheperds cause the Japanese to spend their time running away or playing tag instead of killing whales.
Thats all that matters. .

did the japanese whalers get their quota for this season ?

Popeye
03-26-2010, 07:32 AM
.. if they want to achieve a result ..i want to achieve a result also , the result i want to achieve is to make good use of products which do no harm to the environment , products derived from sustainable sources , products which when they are used up can be returned to the earth so the next generation can use them again and again in their time , products which renew and sustain themselves forever , many people have a problem with this ..

..but are ok with vinyl and plastic .. :rolleyes:

George.
03-26-2010, 07:46 AM
Popeye, you are spamming the thread.

Popeye
03-26-2010, 07:49 AM
please define 'spam' , how is it like offering a few meager comments on a bilge thread ?

George.
03-26-2010, 08:03 AM
Spam is posting several non sequitur posts in a row, and doing so in every thread that tries to discuss endangered species or fisheries management. If you have a position, state it and defend it. Don't try to drown out discussion.

Popeye
03-26-2010, 08:11 AM
every thread that tries to discuss endangered species or fisheries management.

sorry , i didn't realize

i think it would be wise to support intelligent wildlife management decisions based on solid scientific rational thorough accumulated knowledge .. and you agree or disagree ?

after you kind sir ..

skuthorp
03-26-2010, 08:16 AM
Well I have given up on my own species, in spite of Bach, Michaelangelo, Pasteur et al. But then I'm old and cynical and hopefuly I'm wrong

Popeye
03-26-2010, 08:24 AM
might i be allowed at this juncture to take a crack at pointing out where you have made assumptions sku , and confused those assumptions with actual knowledge

or would i be risking a spamming episode followed by an epileptic foaming at the mouth session ?

skuthorp
03-26-2010, 08:28 AM
Nothing to do with what you have been posting here or what arguments you may be having with others Popeye, just a personal statement.
I really don't care any more.

George.
03-26-2010, 08:39 AM
i think it would be wise to support intelligent wildlife management decisions based on solid scientific rational thorough accumulated knowledge .. and you agree or disagree ?

after you kind sir ..

Popeye, science can tell you how to reach a wildlife management goal. It cannot choose the goal for you.

If your goal is to make the most money possible out of a wild population, science can help you. If your goal is to preserve it so that it can be enjoyed without being depleted, science can help you there too.

Popeye
03-26-2010, 08:40 AM
arguments .

nope, rarely if ever

i post up hard facts and watch 'em twist in the wind , great fun , you should try it

Popeye
03-26-2010, 08:42 AM
If your goal is to preserve it so that it can be enjoyed without being depleted, science can help you there too.

agree

Shang
03-26-2010, 10:50 AM
Read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn, it addresses the problem we're discussing..

Here's the beginning of the Wikipedia write-up on the book:

The story begins with a newspaper ad: "Teacher seeks pupil, must have an earnest desire to save the world. Apply in person." The narrator responds at first with disgust because of the absurdity of "wanting to save the world", but decides to answer the ad out of nostalgia for his adolescence during the 1960s childrens' revolts. Upon arriving at the address, he finds himself in a room with a gorilla. He notices a sign that reads "With man gone will there be hope for gorilla?"