Bio-Fuels

[jollyrogerroatan]

A few weeks ago I saw some descussions regarding Bio Fuels. The topic was using deep frier used oil for diesel engines. I think with what is happening with the cost of fuel we should really be considering buying Veg-oil or peanut oil to help our farmers and ourselves. I live in a warm climate year round so heating the bio fuel is not a factor.

One poster said that he started his diesel on diesel fuel and switched to used veg oil. The other factor is that diesel engines recirculate the fuel. Therefore it is kept warm while the engine is running. This may be a struggle for folks in Maine and Vermont, but for 1/2 the country it could be the answer to the folks that hate us so much in the Middle East.

If any of you guys know of web sites where I can get additional information on Bio Fuels and Prtopane /Diesel conversions for pickups, I would be grateful. Has anyone converted a Dodge Ram Cummins 250 t?uck to Propane

[Figmental]

Hey Jolly, Here are a couple of sites for which you ask. Biodieselnow.com (http://www.biodieselnow.com/) and, BIODIESEL & SVO DISCUSSION FORUMS (http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee/forums)
I see you are in Honduras. Is there much waste vegoil available?
I have heard of adding propane to the diesel intake to help them run better, perhaps it cleans up carbon deposits I don't know. Were you asking about propane to replacement the diesel fuel or as a supplement only?

Best of luck to you.
David

[TimothyB]

http://www.journeytoforever.org/

This is the BEST Biofuel (do it yourself and general information) site I have yet to come across.

Let me add, using straight waste veg oil is not great practice.. the fatty acids will gunk up your injectors over the long term. You can deal with that by heating it up to over 200 degrees (Farenheit) before burning, but it still 'cokes' a bit.

For myself, I would be more comfortable burning biodiesel, which is veg oil (waste or straight) or even animal fat, that has been processed with about a $1 of chemicals per 100 gallons to be free (almost) of fatty acids and etc.

Propane is usually used as an accelerant in diesels, and helps the fuel burn MUCH more cleanly. You can get near total combustion with just a small amount of it mixed in with teh air intake. Diesel racing trucks use LOTS of propane to boost power, but I am not aware of anyone converting the whole engine to Propane.

[ 09-08-2005, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: TimothyB ]

[sbsbw]

Timothy I dissagry

I would advocate for burning straight Veg, you will however need to filter it. I will probably do a hot filter though a 1 micron mesh. that should take care of any deposting problems, assuming that the oil is hot enough.

jollyrogerroatan, what you need to know is that the oil needs to be kept hot to avoid coaking (deposteting) in the cylenders, not just to keep it flowing. We usually aim for a temperature of about 180 degrees (f) going into the I pump. depending on how much solar exposure you get, its possible that just a black tank mounted to the top of your car would provide the neccacry heat. though i would still have the oil loop back from the I pump.

BY the way, palm oil is perhaps the most ideal oil for burning. it has a very very high yield.

Ben

[notwoodbut...]

I see lots of articles on this subject. No plans to convert yet but I'm wondering...once folks use up all the free used oil that is out there, what will bio diesel/vegetable oil cost per gallon? Is there any info out there now? How much land would be required to obtain oil in amounts comparable to the oil we now use?

[Donn]

Since we're talking about bio-fuel, who knows what about corn-burning stoves?

I saw the end of a segment about a group of like-minded homeowners who got together and built a 25' silo, and filled it with shelled corn from an organic farmer.

They all installed corn-burning pellet-stoves, and figgered out how much corn they would need to replace wood-heat for the season.

Shelled corn yields 7KBTU# to wood's 8K. 30% of the emissions.

[ 09-08-2005, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Donn ]

[Ron Williamson]

Donn
I knew some guys with corn stoves.
They worked really well unless they weren't maintained(ie.shutdown every coupla days and the pile of unburned crud removed.)
You need to enjoy the smell of burnt popcorn, as well.They were horrible,especially at startup.
These stoves could also burn other grain,but corn was the best.
Newer stoves may be different.
R

[Dave Carnell]

Biofuel, like most "renewable" energy sources is insignificant compared to petroleum. Converting all of the vegetable oil grown in the US would amount to only 4% of the petroleum consumption, and that is without charging the vegetable oil for the fuel used in making the fertilizer, harvesting the crop, and transporting it.

Oil, coal, and uranium are our only significant energy resources.

[SandMaster]

Oil, coal, and uranium are our only significant energy resources Dave is old enough I believe to know that has not long been the case. At the turn of the 20th centruy most of the world including our own relied on human and animal power to get the work of life done. We could go back. But not without some pain. We may have to anyway.

[Popeye]

Originally posted by Dave Carnell:


Oil, coal, and uranium are our only significant energy resources.From whence came the electric power to supply ye olde grid of the New England States?

[sdowney717]

EXC
Perhaps Excelon which is a nuclear power producer and a very good investment

I wonder how many power boat owners can still afford to run them.
Can you turn a power boat into a sail boat. My own 37 egg has a long keel but it is only about 2 feet deep.

[Don Maurer]

once folks use up all the free used oil that is out there, what will bio diesel/vegetable oil cost per gallon? I Commercial bio-diesel is usually an 80:20 mix of diesel and methanol, not vegetable oil. According to news radio, the wholesale price is around $2.50 / gallon this week in New Jersey.

[TimothyB]

Originally posted by sbsbw:
Timothy I dissagry

I would advocate for burning straight Veg, you will however need to filter it. I will probably do a hot filter though a 1 micron mesh. that should take care of any deposting problems, assuming that the oil is hot enough.
*snip*
BY the way, palm oil is perhaps the most ideal oil for burning. it has a very very high yield.

BenBen, yes I understand what you are saying, and in fact I did say you can burn straight veg oil if you heat/filter it before burning.

Here is the thing.. that creates all sorts of operational difficulties. You HAVE to start the engine on petrol diesel, and you HAVE to stop it on petrol diesel. So, it makes it less convenient. Also, it is absolutely true that burning straight veg does produce more byproducts that can linger in your fuel system. All of these reasons are why I prefer processed biodiesel to straight veg.

Now, if I was powering farm equipment or running a long haul rig it might be a different story. Given the economy of using straight veg, it becomes more attractive to use in those applications since preheating and primiing/depriming are not big issues.

Palm oil is an excellent one, but it does gel at a pretty high temperature and is very high in fats.

[TimothyB]

Originally posted by Don Maurer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> once folks use up all the free used oil that is out there, what will bio diesel/vegetable oil cost per gallon? I Commercial bio-diesel is usually an 80:20 mix of diesel and methanol, not vegetable oil. According to news radio, the wholesale price is around $2.50 / gallon this week in New Jersey.</font>[/QUOTE]No Don, that is not correct.

Methanol is used to process vegetable oil into biodiesel. B20 is 20% vegetable derived fuel, and in the US it is most likely Soybean oil based.

If you read or heard something else, they were misinformed.

[TimothyB]

Originally posted by Dave Carnell:
[QB]*snip Converting all of the vegetable oil grown in the US would amount to only 4% of the petroleum consumption, *snip*(QB]Dave, where did you get this 4% figure? And even if it is true, that doesn't mean that we cannot create more oil, just that more is not BEING created because of lack of demand. As I have said before, we could supply 100% of the petroleum needs of the US by growing rapeseed on land equalling about 1/2 - 3/4 the size of the state of Utah.. not really that much compared to what is out there now. That doesn't even begin to get into the potential of harvesting methane from swampland and animal waste, and getting alcohol from crop residues and surplus.

ADENDUM: Algae farms, not rapeseed! See below post for clarification.

[ 09-09-2005, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: TimothyB ]

[SandMaster]

As I have said before, we could supply 100% of the petroleum needs of the US by growing rapeseed on land equalling about 1/2 - 3/4 the size of the state of Utah.. I would like to see some evidence of that.

[TimothyB]

I've reviewed my notes and I have to apologize for an omission and a misleading statement.

It is true that we can replace all of our oil inputs with biodiesel, and that it would take something like 10 million acres to do so. To put that in perspective, Utah has 54 million acres, something like half of which are arable.

HOWEVER I was wrong about using rapeseed.. I incorrectly crossreferenced my notes. We would be using algae farms to provide the lion's share of oil for biodiesel production in this instance, as referenced here:

http://www.unh.edu/p2/biodiesel/article_alge.html

Using regular feedstock and algae, combined with fuel conservation measures and other initiatives, and we would have no trouble getting over the hurdle. Thats a very good article and should put everything into some perspective. I'll addend my other posts with the correction.

A couple more facts I've just checked:

- there are more than 4 billion gallons of waste cooking oil produced annually in the U.S.; enough to replace 10% of fuel expenditures

- The Office of Fuels Development, a division of the Department of Energy, funded a program from 1978 through 1996 under the National Renewable Energy Laboratory known as the "Aquatic Species Program". The focus of this program was to investigate high oil yield algaes that could be grown specifically for the purpose of wide scale biodiesel production. Some species of algae are ideally suited to biodiesel production due to their high oil content (some as much as 50% oil), and extremely fast growth rates. From the results of the Aquatic Species Program, algae farms would let us supply enough biodiesel to completely replace petroleum as a transportation fuel in the US (as well as its other main use - home heating oil).

[Ron Williamson]

Waste cooking oil is somewhat of a misnomer as it is generally recycled at rendering plants.
R

[nutmeg2go]

With the current price of fuel, I'm considering converting my Pathfinder to sail. I'm still trying to figure out how to deal with highway overpasses, and tacking into the wind may create interesting driving situations, but I have to do something to lessen the financial drain of my SUG (sucks up gas). Thank God my boat is a 12 1/2 which uses oars as back-up power.

I wonder how oars would work on the Pathfinder.

[Dave Carnell]

When I was a kid in the 30s, New England's power grid was mostly supplied by coal-fired generating plants. Trains were coal-fired and our homes, schools, and offices were mostly heated by coal.

[Gary E]

Detroit Diesel 6V-92TA Alcohol Fuel Engine
The 6V-92TA alcohol fuel engine by Detroit Diesel Corporation (DDC) uses a vee-configuration, 6-cylinder, two-cycle motor capable of producing up to 300 horsepower. DDC's previous experiences with the methanol 6V-92TA engine aided in the development of the ethanol version in 1991 and its emissions certification in 1992. DDC selected the 6V-92TA engine for development as an alcohol fuel engine because the 6V-92TA diesel engine was used in about 80% of the urban transit buses on the road at the time, and the two-cycle engine was easier to convert to alcohol fuel than a four-cycle engine. The two-cycle engine retained some hot exhaust gases in the cylinder, which raised the temperature of the fresh fuel/air mixture, making compression ignition of low-cetane fuels such as ethanol much easier.
For information on current engine ratings, emissions certification, and availability of Detroit Diesel Corporation's engine products that run on alternative fuels, refer to the Heavy Vehicle and Engine Resource Guide (PDF 80 KB) (Download Acrobat Reader) or visit the Detroit Diesel Corporation Web site.

On-Road Development Fleet Descriptions:

Archer Daniels Midland, ethanol line-haul trucks
Hennepin County, ethanol snowplow
Nebraska Highway Department, ethanol snowplow
Related Publications:
Some of the following documents are available as Adobe Acrobat PDFs. Download Acrobat Reader

Alcohol-powered Heavy-duty Engines Meet with Emissions Success
Engine Profile: DDC 6V-92TA
Fueled on Ethanol, Fuel Equipment Magazine
Hennepin County's Experience with Heavy-duty Ethanol Vehicles (PDF 142 KB)
Midwest Ethanol Demonstration Project, Annual Report (PDF 184 KB)
Project Profile: Hennepin County Ethanol Demonstration Project
Project Profile: Nearly Neat (100%) Ethanol in Hennepin County
Running Line-haul Trucks on Ethanol, Case Studies (PDF 751 KB)
The Ethanol Heavy-duty Truck Fleet Demonstration Project (PDF 4.1 MB)

From....
http://www.ctts.nrel.gov/heavy_vehicle/ddc6v92ta.html

[rmiller3]

Oil, coal, and uranium are our only significant energy resources. The statement above represents the attitude we (who are a bit older) were raised to believe. It is not correct ....

The most abundant source of energy on earth, and in the universe, is hydrogen. There are many ways to approach the widespread use of hydrogen. Check out some of the info on the NASA website (alternative energy studies) on how hydrogen could power most, if not all human activities, ... from industry to transportation and recreation.

In fact, we might already have a hydrogen based economy, instead of an oil economy, if the multinational corporations who control the flow of oil would have allowed ...

Side effects of consuming hydrogen? ... water, heat, and electricity...

I apologize if I am taking this thread too far off topic, but did want to respond to the statement above. For those who are interested, lots of information on the production, control, use, and economics of the "hydrogen economy" can be found on the web (at NASA and many other sources).


Some species of algae are ideally suited to biodiesel production due to their high oil content (some as much as 50% oil), and extremely fast growth rates. From the results of the Aquatic Species Program, algae farms would let us supply There is much promise in the use of biodiesel... which has already been used in the diesel engines we already own and manufature... and we could put our farmers back to work in the process. Sounds like win-win to me.

One last point, if I may ... why not push powerboat design toward at least some sail being routinely included? Why not raise some sail when motor cruising in favorable winds (using motor alone, when winds are unfavorable)?

R

[Gary E]

why not push powerboat design toward at least some sail being routinely included? Because, in my opinion, that would only work for pleasure boats, not for working boats.. For goofing off you can just as well use sails, cuz your not in a hurry..

[mmd]

"...why not push powerboat design toward at least some sail being routinely included?" - miller3 In the middle 1980's I was involved in a reasearch project sponsored by Canada's National Research Centre (NRC) to evaluate the feasibility of retro-fitting sail-assist systems on existant commercial motor-fishing boats. We determined that in some fisheries this would realize significant savings in fuel consumption (between 15% - 25%) on a per-trip basis, and that the retrofit costs could be amortized over as little as three seasons. The primary stumbling block was the fisherman's unwillingness to use the system - most found it easier to put he throttle down than to put the sails up. By the late '80's the fuel crisis had become a bad memory, and all interest in the project faded.

To pose a counter-question to miller3's query, why not consider powerboats - both commercial and pleasure - that are more efficient at moving through the water; namely, high length-to-beam hulls? Tad Roberts, who used to post here occasionally, and I have both done work in this field with very encouraging results. But if the public doesn't demand fuel-efficient boats, our work just languishes in the file cabinet in the "neat idea" folder.

As an example, I have a design "out there" for a 36-ft power cruiser that sleeps four, has full galley and head with a stand-up shower, saloon table that seats six, a raised helm and 50-sq.ft. cockpit that cruises at 15 knots and hits 22 knots at WOT when powered by a 90-hp Honda outboard. It can cruise from dawn to dusk on $50 of fuel, even at today's exhorbitant prices. I have also created a preliminary design for a 40-ft. motor-sailer based on the same hull form that is predicted to sail at 7.5 knots and motor at 11 knots.

Fuel economy can be had in boats, and there are many of us designers who would relish the opportunity to design to that end, but if the buying public doesn't ask for them, they won't get done.

[Gary E]

As an example, I have a design "out there" for a 36-ft power cruiser that sleeps four, has full galley and head with a stand-up shower, saloon table that seats six, a raised helm and 50-sq.ft. cockpit that cruises at 15 knots and hits 22 knots at WOT when powered by a 90-hp Honda outboard. How much does this boat weigh?
What is it made of?
What will it's aprox cost be?
Tank tested a model yet?
What does "out there" really mean?

[mmd]

"Out there" means that the boat is built (of aluminum and its displacement is 5800 lbs), launched, and has four seasons of hard use extensively documented. Its cost is heavily dependant upon builder fees and outfit details, but I'd expect that $50,000 - $75,000 would be a reasonable budget. If you would like more information, please send me a polite personal e-mail.

[RonW]

There is a lot of wisdom in rmiller's and mmd's post. Unfortunately the public will demand nothing unless it is tied to the dollar figure.
Not counting the left ring radicals.

Yes we where taught wrong, but technology was not there to show other possibilities.The next 20 years may be a very interesting time in history concerning energy sources.

I think opec might have krapted in their turbins by getting too greedy too fast. Technology may phase them out, this time around.Eventually.

I have often wondered what it was like in 1896, when elco made many 36 foot electric launches for the world's trade fair in st. louis.

A energy source for the general public has to be practical, easyily obtainable, and cost less then other readily available sources. Then the public will switch sides in a new york minute and never look back as long as it is cheaper.

[Figmental]

I watched some friends spin up a batch of biodiesel last August. The methanol and lye cost was a dollar a gallon. They had to heat the oil first too. Then there was glycerin created as a byproduct that had to be disposed at another site. Lots of handling it seemed. I'm putting my money on WVO. Regular is $3.19 right now here in Az.

How do we start up the American farmers to rescue us from ourselves? Don't ask a oilman.

[StevenBauer]

I was reading an article in the local paper the other day about how the current fuel prices are affecting the local fishermen. One guy said it costs $30,000 in fuel to go out for 5 days. Wow! Seems like there is some fuel price point where it'd be more profitable to go back to sail power for fishing.

Steven

[Dave Carnell]

Total US production of vegetable oils is just under 4 billion gal/yr, of which only a small fraction ends as waste cooking oil. Current US petroleum consumption is 8 billion gal/day.

There is a tremendous amount of hydrogen on earth, all combined as water. The current manufacture of hydrogen is by reforming natural gas, which co-produces carbon dioxide and wastes much of the energy of the natural gas.

Electricity from uranium electrolyzing water to hydrogen is the only way to make hydrogen without carbon dioxide. Currently, there is no economical way to store hydrogen for use as automotive fuel or other small-scale requirements.

[George Jung]

I tend to agree with RonW; "the masses" will follow the path of least resistance.... even if it's more expensive, and ecologically unfriendly. BTW, that 'biodiesel' site is interesting; seems a bit LWW, but I'm just getting around to exploring it. On further evaluation, makes me wonder about our established (and maybe )RWW business models.
The topic of switching our economy to a non-oilbased one has been raised before, sometime this past year. Hydrogen fuel cells; solar, wind etc. The hurdles that would need to be cleared are immense; I honestly can't imagine how that would happen, short of a federal mandate, that the current entrenched companies be forced to expedite.... be tied up in court for decades. If the demand for oil continues to climb (and with where China is headed, why wouldn't it?), and with it the price/price gouging, there will certainly develop some incentive; but who to implement? Besides BIG OIL, who has the infrastructure to deliver such a product?
Sorry, I realize I'm off-topic. But it seems germaine. In the short term, all I can think to do is make my home as efficient as possible; try to drive less; and replace my current vehicles, when necessary, with the most efficient ones I can find.
MMD, the fuel-efficient cruiser sounds interesting; but you're right... at least around here, most folks want the biggest boat, with the most hp they can get. I don't see any shift in buying patterns, except a friend who sells boats for a living says sales are way down; and everyone he knows in the business has noted the same. Perhaps we'll see a move toward a more efficient cruiser.... if the manufacturers decide to offer one.

[captain's gig]

Originally posted by Dave Carnell:


Electricity from uranium electrolyzing water to hydrogen is the only way to make hydrogen without carbon dioxide. Solar cells produce no CO2. How much waste (mine tailings, plutonium etc.)comes from Uranium production?

[ 09-11-2005, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: captain's gig ]

[rmiller3]

Electricity from uranium electrolyzing water to hydrogen is the only way to make hydrogen without carbon dioxide. Currently, there is no economical way to store hydrogen for use as automotive fuel or other small-scale requirements.Electricity from uranium is the ONLY way? Yikes!

Any energy source can be used to create the electricity to hydrolyze water into O2 and H2. Practical suggestions that are very workable with current technology abound. You can find articles from scientific journals all over the net with respect to this.

For example, windmills at sea or near the sea can hydrolyze salt water for hydrogen for use by power generation facilities adjacent to such pipeline systems. Result is electricity into the grid with no greenhouse gases, no use of hydrocarbons at all, and no production of nuclear waste with all of its many essentially unsolvable problems. Solar cell farms in the southwest could do the same. In the northwest, might consider a combination of wind and hydroelectric dams specifically created to NOT obstruct entire rivers as in the old days, but extract the energy from water passing through specifically constructed high flow tributaries; making the electricity necessary to hydrolyze water.

In other words, in different parts of the country, different solutions may be most appropriate.

And for those who don't wish to see windmill farms off the coast for aesthetic reasons, I can only respond that there is extremely little impact on the environment compared to the multitude of offshore oil platforms now despoiling our coastlines, seas, and fisheries.

Storage of hydrogen in our cars and boats in order to power our electric engines is likewise solvable. New methods presently available include chemical and metallic storage,"wafers" and matrices consisting of any of a number of possible constituents.. such as various compounds of lithium, all have in common two things. One... non-explosive since there is no pressurized hydrogen tank as some often imagine there must be, and two... most of these technologies require some moderate heat to bring the material to a state that readily give up the stored hydrogen. A battery can do this, as can other sources of electricity.

Fuel cells are, by the way as much as 80 to 90 percent efficient in extracting energy from hydrogen. This efficiency is generally considered enough to overcome the low density of hydrogen that might be stored by one of these methods, when compared to the 20 to 40 percent efficiency of internal combustion engines burning gasoline or diesel.

Off topic.... well yes.

But I do envision that perhaps even within a decade, some of the producers of marine electric propulsion systems (Solomon, etc.) may indeed be considering new generation batteries, with onboard storage of hydrogen made from sea-water (wind and/or sun for hydrolyzing the sea-water), powering a fuel cell to efficiently create the electricity that will drive their already efficient electric motors. Good for the environment, good for the self sufficient sailor, and good for America... or any country that can get out in front on these technologies.

I am intrigued by those who have advocated on TV or in print a "Manhatten Project" like effort to create an energy system not dependent on petrochemicals within a decade. We went to the moon with 8 years of effort, we designed the bomb in about 4 years. Perhaps if there is the will, this could be done ... especially inasmuch as most (but not all) of the technologies I refer to here already exist.

Would it not be a wonderful thing indeed to cruise the oceans with a non polluting electrical propulsion system, depending only on a very renewable source of energy... and all the while be collecting the fresh drinking water the system will be producing as its waste product? It can be done...

Again, I apologize for taking this thread so far afield .. but I do wish to provide information based on the present state of development of hydrogen as a fuel - in response to posts such as given above. i.e. "Uranium (snip) is the only way to make hydrogen without carbon dioxide."

Rather than let this thread deteriorate into half-truths, or (heaven forbid) politics, I recommend that interested folks just google for information on hydrogen fuel cells, hydrogen production, and the hoped for development of a hydrogen economy. At the least, this makes for some very interesting reading.

Now I will return to reading, learning, and occasionally posting on subjects regarding wooden boats. (Until such time as I can embark on a world cruise in my fuel cell equipped auxiliary smile.gif .)

Robert

[StevenBauer]

Lots of good ideas in this thread. But I think of hydrogen as more of a fuel delivery system than a fuel source. You still need a fuel source to make the hydrogen. Don't you guys think that if we spent the same ammount of money on developing alternate fuel sources that we spend exploring for oil that there would be some "quantum leap" discoveries and breakthroughs that we can't even imagine now?

Steven

[TimothyB]

The reason biomass fuels are a necessary interim step between oil and hydrogen is because the engines have a long lifespan, and the economy has factored in that lifespan. There is also a large investment in the technology by engine manufacturers, which they will be reluctant to let go. So, in using biomass you deal with emissions and fuel supply in one go, and allow existing technology to continue being servicable.

Now, while we are merrily chugging along on veg oil and ethanol, we would be developing hydrogen fuel cells. We would be building renewable energy platforms to extract hydrogen from water, area appropriate (solor farms in the south, windmills in the north, etc). In the meantime we would be working on energy efficient homes of many types, both using heat sinks and insulation.

Its so simple, and could be so easy, if it were not for preconceptions and fortunes tied up in the old technology, or the notion that energy efficiency is too expensive. It's never been about cost, but about design. Passive solar houses, micro cogeneration of power, etc. If you eliminate half of the transmission deficit (the power that is bled off in heat just to send it to your house) by localizing some of the power generation you save incredible amounts of resources. Add that to hydrogen, energy efficiency programs, and renewables and we would be well on our way to not only energy independence, but better stewardship of our planet.

[Gary E]

Originally posted by StevenBauer:
Don't you guys think that if we spent the same ammount of money on developing alternate fuel sources that we spend exploring for oil that there would be some "quantum leap" discoveries and breakthroughs that we can't even imagine now?

StevenThere might be, who knows..remember what nuk power to make electricity was sposed to cost?...they told us it was gona be too cheap to meter..

Just WHO is the "we" ? the govmint? or a guy in his basement?

Do you really think the big oil companies are looking for a method to put themselves out of biz?

[Popeye]

They aren't going out of biz, this is typical knee jerk reaction to the remote possiblity of giving up 5 to 10 percent of market share to crazy hippy people who demand cheaper, abundant, stable, domestic fuel supplies.

[Gary E]

Originally posted by popeye:
They aren't going out of biz, this is typical knee jerk reaction to the remote possiblity of giving up 5 to 10 percent of market share to crazy hippy people who demand cheaper, abundant, stable, domestic fuel supplies.I wish you luck in finding it, the public should benifit if you do. So far no one has defined just who the developer or "we" actually is and everytime the govmint tries to spend $$ on research for this YOU the PUBLIC gets all bent outa shape and complain about spending tax money on research...

All I am saying is that the oil companies have NO FREEKIN INTEREST in developing anything that cuts the need for THEIR PRODUCT...

Since it now costs more energy to plant, grow and harvest the raw material to make bio fuel than the bio fuel produces, what else are they looking at?

[ 09-12-2005, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

[Don Maurer]

Since it now costs more energy to plant, grow and harvest the raw material to make bio fuel than the bio fuel produces, what else are they looking at? Not true. Biodiesel yields 3.2 times as much energy as it takes to produce it. Probably not that much different than importing and refining petroleum.

http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/CommonlyAsked.PDF

[Popeye]

Interesting read from Tim_B on Algae. It occurs to me, one would need an abundant upstream source of phosphates for a significant run-off, eg farm, industrial laundromat (hospital) or a golf course.

[ 09-12-2005, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: popeye ]

[Gary E]

Originally posted by Don Maurer:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Since it now costs more energy to plant, grow and harvest the raw material to make bio fuel than the bio fuel produces, what else are they looking at? Not true. Biodiesel yields 3.2 times as much energy as it takes to produce it. Probably not that much different than importing and refining petroleum.</font>[/QUOTE]Maybe for Diesel cars, but what percentage of them are there in this world?

Leading fuel in cars must be something that can replace gas and that is Gasohol..


One study by Battelle Laboratories of Columbus, Ohio, commissioned by the American Petroleum Institute, concluded that it takes something on the order of 2.2 times the energy gained from alcohol to produce it. That pretty well jibes with figures from many earlier studies by the U.S. Agriculture Department, the University of Illinois, the University of South Dakota at Brookings, Louisiana State University, and Mobil Oil's Research and Development Corporation, to name but a few.

Is that study not realistic to bio? or maybe you think that the results were somewhat predictable because it was paid for by the American Petroleum Institute?

Please do not missunderstand me, I would LOVE some way to reduce the cost of transportation to the public, but so far this in not working out as touted..

Where in or near Mt Holly can you buy Gasohol?

What if anything are they doing with all the "gas" generated from that huge landfill?

[ 09-12-2005, 12:58 PM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

[Popeye]

Understand the accounting principles used in these types of studies too, depreciated capital cost of infrastucture is another way to fix the books and back we go to feasible. To my mind, if someone can make fuel in their basement, on the cheap, 'nuff said.

[ 09-12-2005, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: popeye ]

[Gary E]

Originally posted by popeye:
Understand the accounting principles used in these types of studies too, depreciated capital cost of infrastucture is another way to fix the books and back we go to feasible. To my mind, if someone can make fuel in their basement, on the cheap, 'nuff said.So how much are you gona setup to make??

[Gary E]

Look here to see if a station is near you...

http://www.e85fuel.com/database/search.php

In Iowa, a very prollific corn growing state there are only 25 stations...

Ohio that is no slouch in growing there are 2

Pennsylvania and Jersey... NONE...

and in California ONE :D :D ...

[ 09-12-2005, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Gary E ]

[Popeye]

Small time production scales up nicely. Homebrewing is an example, a group of us made beer (essentially dilute grain alcohol) from scratch; paying retail, taxable dollars for supplies like barley and grain, and produced it for pennies a bottle.

Seems to me, a grain~algae farm using waste heat or solar and waste phosphate run-off would produce co-operative biodiesel ~ alcohol for very little money.

[ 09-12-2005, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: popeye ]

[Gary E]

Seems to me Go for it.. you might fall into a gold mine..

[Popeye]

Originally posted by Gary E:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Seems to me Go for it.. you might fall into a gold mine..</font>[/QUOTE]..or.. simply stabilize the petroleum market

[Uncle Duke]

A little late in the chain, here, I know.
Some talk earlier about hyrdogen, and a comment or two about storage issues, etc. You'all might find this report both timely and interesting - a safe, renewable hydrogen storage method:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/09/050907102549.htm

"Scientists at the Technical University of Denmark have invented a technology which may be an important step towards the hydrogen economy: a hydrogen tablet that effectively stores hydrogen in an inexpensive and safe material."
"The hydrogen tablet is safe and inexpensive. In this respect it is different from most other hydrogen storage technologies. You can literally carry the material in your pocket without any kind of safety precaution. The reason is that the tablet consists solely of ammonia absorbed efficiently in sea-salt. Ammonia is produced by a combination of hydrogen with nitrogen from the surrounding air, and the DTU-tablet therefore contains large amounts of hydrogen. Within the tablet, hydrogen is stored as long as desired, and when hydrogen is needed, ammonia is released through a catalyst that decomposes it back to free hydrogen. When the tablet is empty, you merely give it a “shot” of ammonia and it is ready for use again"

[Don Maurer]

Look here to see if a station is near you...

http://www.e85fuel.com/database/search.php

In Iowa, a very prollific corn growing state there are only 25 stations...

Gary E,

That's only for stations selling E85. I lived in Iowa for 22 years and damn near every gas station sells gas with a 10% ethanol blend. I used it whenever I could.

As far as I know, they just burn off the bio gas from the Mt. Holly landfill.

[Gary E]

Originally posted by Don Maurer:
[QUOTE]
I lived in Iowa for 22 years and damn near every gas station sells gas with a 10% ethanol blend. I used it whenever I could. That should give you a good base of experience..

How did the price per gal compare with gas?

What about fuel mileage? I hear that it is not as good as reg gas but if the cost was lower then maybe it's good deal.

[Don Maurer]

When I left Iowa about 2 years ago, 10% ethanol blend was about $.05 to $.10 a gallon cheaper than regular gas, but Iowa has a lower tax on it. If the tax was the same as regular gas, it would probably have been $.05 to $.10 more expensive when gas was still under $1.25 / gallon. I didn't really notice any difference in mileage.

[Dan McCosh]

Sometimes I marvel at how a fairly simple technology that works can be made extremely complicated. The notion of powering a boat with a fuel cell, with the hydrogen to power the fuel cell being generated via a windmill is a pretty good example. In fact, you can easily gear the windmill to a propeller, and eliminate the hydrogen and fuel cell. You can easily eliminate the windmill, by using a sail. If you want electricity, you can drag a propeller in the water, or use a separate windmill--which adds to boat speed reaching or running. The high-tech device known as a sail ends up with far fewer intermediate energy losses, and is the most efficient of all.

[SouthForkSam]

Ok, I realize I am a newby on the forum, but have been lurking for a while. I build wooden drift boats as a hobby and work for a DOE (department of energy) lab, so I keep abreast of energy technology.

The big problem with the hydrogen economy is efficiency. Hydrogen is not a power source, but a power store, and a pretty poor one at that. There is no free hydrogen on the planet eg it is all locked up into other substances like water. It has to come from somewhere. Currently 90% of the hydrogen used in industry comes from extractring hydrogen from natural gas at about 50% efficiency (so it comes from petro-chemicals at a really poor return rate) only 4% comes from electrolysis.

The production of hydrogen through electrolysis of water is only 17% efficient meaning you consume 83% more energy (which has to come from somewhere and in the US that generally means coal, or natural gas based generators) than you produce as combustible in the form of hydrogen. With new processes involving the use of of high tempuraure steam (produced via nuclear reactors) you can raise the efficiency into the 30% range. Neither of these figures is very good considering you could send the same power down the power lines to an electric based motor at 98% transmission efficiency and 80-90% motor efficiency.

The same money being spent into fuel cell research would be better spent in battery technology. The hydrogen economy is a bone being thrown to placate the environmentalists. If we are generating electricity (as we must for hydrogen electrolysis) why not use it more efficiently? The shear inefficiency of the process would seem to invalidate it.

Electric powered vehicles would also free you from a distribution chain that ensures that the government (both local, state and federal) gets its tax on fuel revenues (which may be the reason why you see the governemnt putting more emphasis on hydrogen than electric vehicles). With a hydrogen distribution systems similar to current gas distribution the government can ensure its tax revenues continue. Electric vehicles would be nearly impossible to tax.

Bio-fuels are a great transition measure. Look at Brazil, in Brazil they produce sugar cane derived alcohol with a power yield of 6X the power going into the production.Currently the majority of new cars produced in Brazil are flex fuel vehicles, meaning they can burn either natural gas, alcohol or gas. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_fuel#The_Brazilian_experiment
for more details.

[carioca1232001]

SouthFork Sam originally wrote:

Look at Brazil, in Brazil they produce sugar cane derived alcohol with a power yield of 6X the power going into the production.Currently the majority of new cars produced in Brazil are flex fuel vehicles, meaning they can burn either natural gas, alcohol or gas. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_fuel#The_Brazilian_experiment Thanks for the compliment Sam. ;)

We now know a thing or two not only about alcohol production, plus how to mitigate the side-effects in IC engines, both carburetted and fuel-injected.

After all , ethanol for IC engines has been on going ever since the early 1980´s, so we would be pretty thick if the reverse was the case. :D

In some States - like São Paulo which is a large alcohol producer - it sells for 1/2 (HALF !) the price of petrol at road-side pumps.

There is a lot of waffle on some Eng Forums on how your (US) E-85 fuel is to be used and the potential harm that can befall automotive fuel components. I suggested they contact the Brazilian auto industry but alas...... :rolleyes:

But you know, engineers relish reinventing the wheel :D

[SouthForkSam]

De nada Carioca!

I lived in the interior of Sao Paulo and was surrounded by sugar cane on every side.....

If you want to read some more of my ramblings on Brazilian energy policy vs ours in the US go see http://www.legendarywaters.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=47

[kulas44]

Man, I been out for a few days and have missed some great discussion. I've been workin on my boat, almost there. Here's my plan on the cookin oil, I'm gonna put together about 5000 gallons, filtered and ready to use, from where ever I can get it. My boat can carry about 1500 gallons, and has space available for lots of bladder tankage (I've heard all the stories). We are planning to do the loop, all intercoastal and rivers, with a side trip to Okla. All protected water, or nearly so. I have Detroit 4-53s that are perfect for utilizing cooking oil, and will carry lots of spare injectors, not a problem. I figure about a year to do the trip. Screw opec/bush !!!!!!!