Goat Island Skiff sailing properties

[BlueNuit]

Hello, lads. I'm new to this forum, but I've been watching (lurking) intently for a while now. I've got to say that this has to be one of the most active and helpful groups on the 'net.

I've built a couple of stitch & glue boats before and I'm looking to build a small (~15') flattie skiff with my son next winter. I've done quite a bit of reading and I've narrowed it down to three designs: Jordan Footloose, Redmond Bluegill and Storer Goat Island. I'm trying to get it down to one.

The Footloose and Bluegill look like nice, well behaved skiffs, but I'm not sure sure about the GIS. In most of the videos I've seen of them, someone is sitting on the gunwales trying to keep it form healing too far (almost looks like their sailing in a Snipe).

I realize that any light boat is going to heal some, but I'm not looking have my passengers be rail meat all the time either. Is that just folks hotdogging it for the camera, or is it really that twitchy?

[MiddleAgesMan]

If you're looking for sedate you'll only find it in the GIS with either a deep reef or in very light air. It's just a fact of life--put 105 square feet of sail on a 130 pound boat and you have a screaming speed demon, one that gets on plane with ease.

[mcdenny]

Blue, I don't have a GIS but you can compare a boat's beam to sail area and get some idea of its tendency to heel over in a gust. As I'm sure you know everything is a compromise, less sail area = less heeling but doggier performance.

You can also reef when it gets too tippy. I remember someone telling me a long time ago that it's time to reef when you first think about it.

[BlueNuit]

Thanks guys. That's the kind of information that I was looking for.

I suppose I could always change the rig to have less canvas, but at that point it may be better to choose a different design.

It looks like the GIS may be a good boat when the crew (my son) gets a bit older and has more experience - and wants to fly past everything on the river. Maybe for the next, next boat ;-)

[David G]

Blue,

I'm not a highly experienced sailor. I have, however, owned a GIS for longer than anyone except a few blokes in OZ. In fact, I built the GIS to learn to sail in. This I have done - if someone of my few years experience can be said to have "learned to sail."

She can, indeed, be a boat that requires your full attention, as described above. But... contrary to the impression you might get from the comments above... she can also be quite easily a "dont' make me set my beer down" style sailor. This can be accomplished thru ballast. As you suggested, a second body helps. I quickly discovered that she became much more sedate, because of that dory-style hull shape, when a second person came aboard.

The first summer, I used "training wheels" when sailing solo. This consisted of two 70# sausage shaped bags of sand (procured from a tire store, and sold as winter traction devices around here) layed loose - one on each side of the centerboard case.

With either a body or some removable ballast, she becomes quite steady, though still fast if you want to sail her that way. Once I learned to sail a bit, I quit using the sandbags, and have had no problems - even in stout winds. Yes, I've had to reef her a couple of times, but usually - by that time - most boats that size are off the water.

Here's some illustrations. PM me if you'd like more.

Sailing solo in brisk winds - not hiking out --
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3611/3464093384_f6ccac6a15_b.jpg

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t4/auroradan/Timothy%20Lake%202008/PICT3183.jpg


Three up - rock solid
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1419/1013056384_48ddebd36a_o.jpg


Light winds, two boys aboard with me. Almost napworthy
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3540/3422264316_0a56b8ebf6_o.jpg


Despite being a complete neophyte sailor, I have only dumped the boat once. That was on my very first day. No lessons, no clue, just a willingness to experiment. My final experiment was to see what would happen if I gybed her without shifting my buttballast to the other side :eek:

The upshot is - I would not shy away from a GIS because it is too twitchy or squirelly. The big sail on a light boat dynamic can be more than adequately addressed with some ballast at first, and some reefing if necessary... along with getting to know the boat better and better as you sail more. The nice thing is... you'll not outgrow her capabilities (at least I won't) anytime soon. She can be as challenging as you want to make her, or as sedate.

Whatever you decide - good luck and have fun!

[Thorne]

I've seen my Twin's GIS sailed in both modes -- sitting on the floorboards and sitting on the gunwale. Even in very heavy winds where I had to reef my heavy dory skiff, he and Jerry were able to sail the GIS from the floorboards.

Here I am fighting to keep my boat upright and get across the lake to a sheltered spot to put in a reef, with Jerry sailing the GIS past me sitting on the floorboards.

http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t4/auroradan/Timothy%20Lake%202008/PICT3158.jpg?t=1269013674

Last year the boat's designer Mik Storer came up to Timothy Lake in Oregon and sailed the heck out of David and Jerry's GIS -=- and he did spend a lot of time on the gunwales when sailing alone. Mik has raced dinghies his whole life, and like many designers is interested in getting the most performance out of his designs.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3498/3948968795_5961bb2664_b.jpg

[jboats]

I can't comment the sailing properties of the GIS (though I hope to someday) but I can attest to the network available for building questions, support, and inspiration.

I am sure if you posed this question on the Michael Storer (MIK) forum (http://www.woodworkforums.com/f169/) you would have a host of answers, such as David G's response above, in no time flat.

I chose the GIS to build because of the comprehensive plans and building instructions, designer support, and community of builders, as well as the flexibility of the design to be used for sailing (performance and beer-in-hand) and rowing around.

I don't think you would be disappointed with the Goat as your choice.

[Tom Robb]

Blue, you could always get some sailing instruction first. Why do things the hard way?
And when trying the new boat, go out in nice light breezes and warm water. I certainly would not go with a lesser rig. Sooner or later you'll grow into a better sailor and a small rig will frustrate you. That's what reefing is for.
Build the boat that inspires you. You'll grow into it.
Building a settle-for boat because it feels safe is foolish, and if you build a slug the kid will grow bored with it in nothing flat. Young boys are seldom interested in calm (boring) contemplative drifting around smelling the roses.

[Clinton B Chase]

If you're looking for sedate you'll only find it in the GIS with either a deep reef or in very light air. It's just a fact of life--put 105 square feet of sail on a 130 pound boat and you have a screaming speed demon, one that gets on plane with ease.

While I wouldn't say the GIS is the most family oriented boat, it does have reasonable initial stability especially loaded. Also, the freeboard is ample. I recommend new sailors starting with a GIS always carry a little ballast if solo and a single reef in the sail.

If it gets scary, the benefit of a lug is that it is quick work to douse the lug and break out the oars to get the boat flat and calm things down.

[BobW]

I chose the GIS for the same reasons jboats described. My Goat is nearing completion and I took it out rowing last weekend. (Mast and sail are being worked on.)

I cannot yet comment on sailing the Goat first hand, but I did enjoy a sail with Michael Storer on the helm up in Oregon last September. I wasn't paying attention from a family perspective but it was a sweet ride. :)

I do intend to use my boat for mixed fleet round-the-buoys racing and camp-cruising set up for two.

Bob

[Hwyl]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3498/3948968795_5961bb2664_b.jpg
It should be noted that Mik is sailing in a pretty extreme manner in this picture, and releasing the mainsheet just 6 inches or so, would make the boat much more docile. He's a great sailor and is showing it.

[David G]

I took that shot from a Core Sound 20. It was skippered by an experienced owner/club racer. We were working hard to reel him in... and we just couldn't catch young Mik.

[DGentry]

It should be noted that Mik is sailing in a pretty extreme manner in this picture . . .and


I took that shot from a Core Sound 20. It was skippered by an experienced owner/club racer. We were working hard to reel him in... and we just couldn't catch young Mik.
and

Here I am fighting to keep my boat upright and get across the lake to a sheltered spot to put in a reef, with Jerry sailing the GIS past me sitting on the floorboards.


- Well, I'm sure that's hard core to many, but that wouldn't look particularly extreme to most any Laser, Finn, Europe, Moth, OK, etc. racer - he's barely hiking, and his boom is hardly bent!:D
He does look like he knows what he's about, of course.

- As for catching him, David G, in this pic you guys were clearly sailing in his dirty air, in a boat that has only 50 sq ft more sail area, but which was displacing probably about 7-8 times more. Not catching him, in this example, is not really indicative of much.

- And Thorne, I'm not disputing your claim, but in your pic you are pretty much close-hauled, while the GIS is going downwind - of course you would normally have had considerably more heeling forces! So, Jerry sitting in the boat, in that pic, also isn't really indicative of much. BTW, I don't see you hiking there:D

Anyway, I've never even seen a GIS in the flesh, much less sailed one. They look like fun, and apparently are easy to build - I wouldn't mind having one.

I will say though that, IMO, there's nothing inherently special about the GIS's performance or hull shape. It is, after all, a very simple design. As pointed out by MiddleAgesMan, if you put proportionately that much sail area on just about ANY lightweight flatiron skiff, I suspect you are going to get similar performance.
Good foils - a Storer emphasis - and well cut sails add to the equation, too, of course. The GIS does seem to put all of that together pretty well.

[davebrown]

the GIS is a popular boat. i love a good skiff, and i am sure i would like the GIS...but, at the risk of hijacking this thread, why the GIS over the windward 15 or 17?

[David G]

Well - keep in mind that as a GIS owner, I'm biased.

Actually, I see nothing wrong with a Windward 15 (which would be the most comparable to the 15.5' GIS). Maybe someone will come along and comment on how she actually sails.

The W15 looks like she'd be a very pretty boat. She has more draft than a GIS, which I'd call a slight negative. She has less freeboard - which has its pluses and minuses - and which makes her a bit more of a Small Water boat.
The W15 is semi-decked, the GIS is completely open - which look do you prefer? This also ameliorates some of the lower freeboard in sloppy water.

The W15 has a centerboard, while the GIS has a daggerboard. For messing about, I prefer the centerboard. For racing... the daggerboard. The GIS has that nifty *cassette* rudder arrangement. I like it a LOT.

W15 looks like it'd be a more sedate boat. It carries a 70 sq. ft. sprit rig, while the GIS has a 86 (CORRECTION - 105 sq. ft. - thanks Archie) sq. ft. balanced lug. GIS has more horsepower. Because the balanced lug is much easier to reef, it also has more *gears*. I've had ours out in some pretty intense conditions, reefed down to a handkerchief. Even though I'm very much a beginning sailor, the boat took good care of me.

The W15 design weight is 250#, the GIS 130#. More weight adds a bit of stability under sail, and a bit more carry when rowing - though the W15 doesn't look like a great rower. The lighter weight is nice when launching & retrieving... and when dragging up a beach and back to the water.

What'd I miss, folks?

[David G]

Comments interwoven --


and
and


- Well, I'm sure that's hard core to many, but that wouldn't look particularly extreme to most any Laser, Finn, Europe, Moth, OK, etc. racer - he's barely hiking, and his boom is hardly bent!:D
He does look like he knows what he's about, of course.

Well, certainly he isn't sailing it liked he'd sail one of his performance dinghies. It not a Moth or a Laser. It has no hiking straps or suchlike. It's a capacious, versatile, family boat with surprising performance characteristics.

- As for catching him, David G, in this pic you guys were clearly sailing in his dirty air, in a boat that has only 50 sq ft more sail area, but which was displacing probably about 7-8 times more. Not catching him, in this example, is not really indicative of much.

I am but an egg when it comes to sailing, so I'm sure you know much more about it than I. But, no, we weren't in his dirty air. Also - my impression is that (overall) the CS20 is a fast boat. It certainly is one of the fastest in the Coots fleet. 20' waterline vs. 15', and sailed by a crafty skipper. I was surprised we didn't catch Mik. If it'd been me sailing the GIS, I'm sure I'd have been reeled in easily. FWIW, you're overestimating the displacement difference, and underestimating the sail difference. Still, the CS is maybe 550-#, and the GIS 150. The CS carries nearly twice the sail. All I'm trying to say is that Mik is an impressive sailor.

- And Thorne, I'm not disputing your claim, but in your pic you are pretty much close-hauled, while the GIS is going downwind - of course you would normally have had considerably more heeling forces! So, Jerry sitting in the boat, in that pic, also isn't really indicative of much. BTW, I don't see you hiking there:D

Good point, I think. You'll note also, FWIW, that Jerry is sailing for maybe his second time ever in that foto... and he's sitting on the bottom, leaning against the lee side. Yikes!

Anyway, I've never even seen a GIS in the flesh, much less sailed one. They look like fun, and apparently are easy to build - I wouldn't mind having one.

Yes, quite easy to build, and mucho fun. It has been simple enough, and forgiving enough for us to learn with. I don't think we'll outgrow her capabilities anytime soon, either. Come to Oregon, and you can take ours for a spin. Or... we'll take you out for a long weekend, take one of the other boats along too, and you can have the GIS for the duration.

I will say though that, IMO, there's nothing inherently special about the GIS's performance or hull shape. It is, after all, a very simple design. As pointed out by MiddleAgesMan, if you put proportionately that much sail area on just about ANY lightweight flatiron skiff, I suspect you are going to get similar performance.
Good foils - a Storer emphasis - and well cut sails add to the equation, too, of course. The GIS does seem to put all of that together pretty well.

The genius about this boat is not that the hull - or any other component - is somehow "special." The genius is that Mik has managed to refine each of the bits just a bit - foils, spars, sail, hull... all with the end goal in mind - then combine them synergistically. The boat is definitely more than the sum of its parts. All the bits work together to make it so. It's particularly impressive to me that it performs as well as it does, while also serving quite ably as a trainer, fishing/motor boat, rowboat, drift boat, and dinghy-cruising platform


But, then again, I'm biased

[Clinton B Chase]

I will say though that, IMO, there's nothing inherently special about the GIS's performance or hull shape. It is, after all, a very simple design.

Wrong on this one. I have studied many boats and designed a number now so I can appreciate the complexity in this simple hull. Have you felt the compound curvature shaped into the forward end of the boat? Have you noticed what MIK does with the bottom just aft of the last bulkhead? It is not a very simple design, in fact. And, in fact, it is not easy to plank until after you have worked the ply into the compound curved shape in the forward sections. The fineness of the bottom at the bow is quite stand alone too.

These are the things that made me a GIS fan after a luke warm start.

David's point about how all the elements work together in the boat couldn't be a better made point.

DGentry mentioned the foils so he scores some points back on that front.

[MiddleAgesMan]

...W15 looks like it'd be a more sedate boat. It carries a 70 sq. ft. sprit rig, while the GIS has a 86 sq. ft. balanced lug....What'd I miss, folks?

You're missing about 20 sf of sail, David. :) The GIS has a 105 sf balanced lug. IIRC the 86 sf figure is for your PDR.

[Thorne]

The W15 looks to be significantly more sedate than the GIS, and the additional weight would make it harder to row under most conditions. That said, if you plan on sailing super thin water, the CB and protected rudder would be a big advantage over the GIS DB and rudder setup.

It also has that ginormous skeg! Looks great for protecting the rudder, but it makes me wonder how nimble it is when tacking in light air....
http://www.cmdboats.com/images/w15sail.gif

[DGentry]

:D
It's all good. I was mostly saying the pics didn't really support the assertions - not that the assertions were incorrect.

GIS - 128lbs, 105 sq ft of sail area (from Storer's site)
CS20 weight - 500-600lbs, 155 sq ft (from B&B yachts)

In my defence, though, 155-105=50! And, unless you had a good telephoto lens going, it sure looks like you guys were right behind him, close hauled - that's a classic position to be getting "dirty air" from the boat ahead. It's very hard, or impossible, to catch up in that situation, even in a faster boat. { Trying to avoid dirty air is a big part of racing sailboats. }

My displacement math was definitely off, even with an extra person in the CS20. My math is frequently off, in any case!

Clinton, I bow to your experience (and yours, DavidG!) - as I say, I've never even seen a GIS in person. Looked like a flatiron skiff (albeit high-sided) from here! But hey, I said "The GIS does seem to put all of that together pretty well" first! No points for that, too?:p

I'd be very happy to take a ride in any GIS on offer, thanks! For the record, I've always been a fan of Mik Storer's boats and ideas.

Have fun with your boats!

Dave Gentry
PS - Do you guys know what hiking pants are? It'd make sitting on that rail a lot more pleasant.

[Songololo]

Here's a W15 going for her maiden sail:

http://jimluton.com/images/7p_2.jpg

Lots more pics - including build sequence - where this came from on Jim Luton's website (http://jimluton.com/boats.php).

Another pic of her under sail, vnice :) ...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_GnklFTJIHjA/S4HGHJND4tI/AAAAAAAAAVo/pHUM9Gq2nYw/S1600-R/Header.jpg

At the Small Reach Regatta 2008:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GnklFTJIHjA/SLmOXxsnxAI/AAAAAAAAAGU/rDkIIIdfph0/s1600/FW_srcrikbeach.jpg

[Songololo]

Question: how does the GIS handle choppy conditions? Is there a lot of slapping in these sort of conditions with her flat forefoot?

[Thorne]

I've been interested in how both Mik and John Welsford's designs often have the stem / forefoot out of the water under sail.

I can't find it now, but several years ago someone posted a great video of several Pathfinder / Navigators sailing together in NZ. They were sailing with the forefoot out of the water, and I posted the question of whether they were trimmed correctly.

John W. replied that yes, the boat is designed to sail that way.

[Hwyl]

It should be noted that Mik is sailing in a pretty extreme manner in this picture, and releasing the mainsheet just 6 inches or so, would make the boat much more docile. He's a great sailor and is showing it.






- Well, I'm sure that's hard core to many, but that wouldn't look particularly extreme to most any Laser, Finn, Europe, Moth, OK, etc. racer - he's barely hiking, and his boom is hardly bent!:D
He does look like he knows what he's about, of course.



I should have clarified it to extreme sheeting angle, anyone who was going out for a leisurely sail would not sheet in that much as I'm sure Dave Gentry would agree. I've sailed all the above boats except for the Finn.

I also think it's a simple shape and simple boats sometimes get it right. An example would be the Fireball. All this distracts from the original question part of which was
I realize that any light boat is going to heal some, but I'm not looking have my passengers be rail meat all the time either. Is that just folks hotdogging it for the camera, or is it really that twitchy? I'd say in that picture, Mik is hot dogging for the camera and other reasons.

[David G]

You're missing about 20 sf of sail, David. :) The GIS has a 105 sf balanced lug. IIRC the 86 sf figure is for your PDR.

Oops -- absolutely correct, both as to the # and to the source of my brain-fart. Thanks!

[van-island]

Like the op, I have researched quite a few similar boats to build, and have almost settled on the GIS. Not being a sailer at all (haven't sailed since I took my white sail 1 about 20 years ago) I really can't make a decision about which boat to build by reading about sailing properties, so I am leaning towards the GIS because I like the way it looks, specifically how the bow line is almost vertical up from the water (like on of those racing boats!)

Is that wrong?!? :-)

[David G]

Question: how does the GIS handle choppy conditions? Is there a lot of slapping in these sort of conditions with her flat forefoot?

I haven't noticed this as an issue at all while sailing. Not wet, and doesn't slap or pound. I guess that's because any amount of heel results in presenting the hull to the water as a sort of V-bottom.

With oars or outboard, it's sometimes an issue, but not obnoxious. The worst is that it'll splush up thru the daggerboard case and wet your back when rowing into a chop. I made a simple, friction-fit cap to forestall that bit of mischief.

[Thorne]

No, ya gotta love it to build it!

That design element is called a "plumb bow'" -- the really traditional Whitehall also has that and I love the look.

[switters]

Like the op, I have researched quite a few similar boats to build, and have almost settled on the GIS. Not being a sailer at all (haven't sailed since I took my white sail 1 about 20 years ago) I really can't make a decision about which boat to build by reading about sailing properties, so I am leaning towards the GIS because I like the way it looks, specifically how the bow line is almost vertical up from the water (like on of those racing boats!)

Is that wrong?!? :-)

if that's wrong, I dont wanna be right.

[David G]

Like the op, I have researched quite a few similar boats to build, and have almost settled on the GIS. Not being a sailer at all (haven't sailed since I took my white sail 1 about 20 years ago) I really can't make a decision about which boat to build by reading about sailing properties, so I am leaning towards the GIS because I like the way it looks, specifically how the bow line is almost vertical up from the water (like on of those racing boats!)

Is that wrong?!? :-)

No... I don't think it's wrong. There are a lot of reasons that I like the GIS. One of them is that I still get a thrill just looking at her. I actually found that I liked the look better in person than from fotos.

I've heard several people say over the years something like: If you don't turn around as you're walking away from your boat, and give her one last admiring glance, it's possible you haven't yet built the right boat for you.

I'd agree.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Is there any other skiff design of similar length that is anywhere close to the GIS's 130 lb. weight?

[Clinton B Chase]

so I am leaning towards the GIS because I like the way it looks, specifically how the bow line is almost vertical up from the water (like on of those racing boats!)

Is that wrong?!? :-)

That plumb bow is striking indeed. I think the Goat is a great boat to grow into as a sailboat. Just learn how to reef before you go out for your first time and tie a reef in until your comfort grows. It is easy to shake out a reef when the wind is light.

[johnw]

I've been interested in how both Mik and John Welsford's designs often have the stem / forefoot out of the water under sail.

I can't find it now, but several years ago someone posted a great video of several Pathfinder / Navigators sailing together in NZ. They were sailing with the forefoot out of the water, and I posted the question of whether they were trimmed correctly.

John W. replied that yes, the boat is designed to sail that way.

Sharpies have always trimmed that way. The entry angle of the bottom is less than that of the sides, and you have less trouble with eddies on the chines. Also, trimmed bow down they can be hard to bear away.

[MiddleAgesMan]

Yep. Bolger's Black Skimmer trims with the stem an inch or two above the water.

[Mike V.]

<snip>

The GIS has that nifty *cassette* rudder arrangement. I like it a LOT.

<snip>



I have a kick-up rudder on my Bolger Junebug and it works well enough. But if it hits the bottom and pops the auto-release clam cleat the rudder becomes much less effective. I like the looks of the cassette rudder on the GIS and have been thinking of building one. What do you like about it? How well behaved is it when it contacts the bottom?

Thanks

[David G]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "well behaved" but I'll give it a go. The shock cord - when tied at the correct tension - will allow the blade to be pulled up or pushed down readily. So, as one approaches the shore, it's fairly easy to retract the blade as required. If one should happen to hit an unexpected obstacle, the give in the shock cord allows the blade to kick back, than spring back into position when one passes over the log or whatever.

If/when this happens, there could conceivably be some damage to the blade. That hasn't happened to us yet, but we made that foil with leading and trailing staves of something tough (I can't remember now if it was meranti or ipe, or???), with the center staves of western red cedar. We also painted the foils with 2-part polyurethane, so only the most rugged of abrasions effects it.

Zat help?

[davebrown]

ok, regarding the GIS vs. say, a windward 15 or 17--i'm getting it. more freeboard, lighter weight and a third more sail.

[Mike V.]

David, thanks for your reply, it was pretty much what I was looking for. The kick-up rudder on my boat is fairly damage resistant but once it kicks-up it steers poorly. It sounds like the cassette rudder might be a bit more likely to be damaged when it strikes the bottom but steers better in shallow water.

[callsign222]

I hope BlueNuit comes back and reads all this wonderful, in-depth, replies! If BlueNuit's son is old enough to help build a boat, he's old enough to enjoy a real performing boat that would have mission flexibility.

Growing up as a kid, sailing was interesting to me when it was windy, we went fast, we got wet, and we capsized. If I was going slow and flat and boring, screw it, I would've stayed home and done drugs instead.

I just float tested my GIS in the water this morning. First time hitting the drink. Not a christening by any means, but a quick splash to see how she sat on her lines. My pond is not very big anyway. I did a "stability test" (me rocking her in an excitable fashion) and she is way more stable than I thought, and she hardens up on the chine when pushed over. My wife and I sat on the rail and didn't get it wet. The high free-board does this.

For a fun, educational build, of a classic multi-purpose design, with fantastic product support from the designer and a cadre of builders, it would be a most suitable choice.

[Alex1N]

Hi All,

This is my first post on the WBF, although some of you will know me already, I suspect.

I was looking around for "plans" for a Mirror at one point (no, don't laugh, please!) after deciding that I'd like to build a wooden boat. I helped build a Mirror at school and remembered that it had been relatively easy (separated from the experience by time, of course). I had just seen one while on holiday, and the gunter rig rang a bell. After a bit of 'net searching on an iPhone "out in the bush" (an "interesting" experience) I discovered the NS14, then the Goat. The NS was by then - a moulded GRP-only boat, so that knocked that one on the head immediately.

After seeing a couple of photos of the Goat in full cry (and pottering about), that was it - I had fallen in lover with her, lug-rig, bow flare and all :). I asked some (well, a lot of) questions on the Storer division of the Oz Woodworkers' Forum regarding the Mirror, the NS14, and the Goat, and got all the information there to base a decision on - which, to be honest, I had pretty-well already made ;). A couple of folks in this thread actually helped, they know who they are...

Anyway, I purchased the plans - and at the same time got MIK's Oz Mk II PDRacer plans because they were cheap, and because the 'Duck looked like a good pre-Goat project. As it has turned out, I would probably have been a lot better off starting with the Goat, as she is simpler to build than the square box that the PDRacer essentially is. The 'Duck is getting close to being finished, after which I will be completely rejigging the workshop before starting on the Goat.

The point behind this extended waffle is that even after a year of trails with building the 'Duck (including a bit of bad health), I am still as keen as ever to do the Goat. I even have a name for her - Setsuna - after a character in one of my daughter's favourite anime shows (Sailor Moon). Even though I have also been recently drawn to some of the Oughtred dinghies (Shearwater and Gannet in particular), the Goat is still the next boat :). I just have to save up for some good-quality gaboon ply, first, too (the very nice "Pacific maple" ply that I got for the project being too heavy, I have finally and regretfully decided).

And the bottom line: I have accepted that I will have to mould myself to the Goat if necessary, not the other way round ;).

[Alex1N]

Just a brief comment, the first chap ever to build her did so as a family boat, with a few young children to boot. I believe that he sailed her a lot in relatively calm river reaches, but that doesn't detract from her qualities - it demonstrates that she can do well in light air. And she's well known for her heavy-weather abilities, of course.

Cheers,
Alex.

[BlueNuit]

I hope BlueNuit comes back and reads all this wonderful, in-depth, replies!

I certainly have! Thank you all.

I was leaning towards the GIS because of the large building community. My only worry was regarding its use by inexperienced sailors.

After reading the comments on both sides of the debate, I think I'll be ordering the plans next month (construction will start in the fall). I'll also be signing up for the local sailing club's White Sail course.

BTW - I spoke to my son about it. His answer was: "Daddy going fast is more fun." Well, you can't argue with logic like that.

[Clinton B Chase]

And the bottom line: I have accepted that I will have to mould myself to the Goat if necessary, not the other way round ;).

Great way to look at the boat. You will learn a lot and I think the GIS could be somewhat forgiving with her generous freeboard and a reef tucked in.

GIS sailors also report that some ballast under the midship seat is a good idea for starting out, especially when singlehanding.

[Alex1N]

Hi Clint!

Ballast sounds good, especially as I'm not the heaviest of bods ;). I've tracked down a source of Lloyds-certified gaboon (so "it must be good") in Tasmania - well, the Oz Woodworker Forum tracked it down and I found out about it - and it sounds good: nice and light. By the time I've got the 'Duck finished and the workshop rebuilt (that's not an exaggeration!), I may have saved up enough for the plywood. If not, there's six sheets of Pacific maple on hand anyway. 50 % heavier than the gaboon, though...

Cheers,
Alex.

[Clinton B Chase]

A couple water jugs would work too. 1 cu. ft of seawater is ~64 pounds so that is good ballast if you can find the collapsible jugs that would be about 1 cu. ft. They need to be well secured and FULL so that the water is not sloshing. Ballast should not be alive! Then when the wind drops and you need to break out the oars, you can empty the jugs.

Clint

[Alex1N]

Hi Clint,

Cool idea! I'll make some notes in a visible spot in the instructions (like the front page ;) so that it doesn't get forgotten in the future!

Cheers,
Alex.

[Peter Belenky]

Don't underestimate the quantity of water needed to weigh a certain amount. A gallon is eight pounds.

[Alex1N]

A bag of damp sand would certainly take up less room for the same weight - not quite as convenient for filling up again over the side once emptied while on the water, though ;).