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Paul Pless
03-18-2010, 10:39 AM
Apparently all of you have luxuriated in the fact that you have had socialized national health care programs for a long long time. I'd like you guys, if your memory is good enough to recall to tell us how long and how hard the debate was in your own countries to arrive at your present ideal health care systems.

paul oman
03-18-2010, 10:49 AM
Also, was what you started with, essentially what you have now, or has it changed greatly... thanks (and thanks Paul P - for posting an interesting question)

Popeye
03-18-2010, 10:50 AM
paul , your national health care problems are in the same sorry state as the canadian constitution (re)patriation wrangle was, they tried to put something in place 200 years after the fact and what a garbled mess it was

tommy douglas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Douglas) was spied on for 30 years , a suspected communist , they still won't release the files to this day , for 'national security reasons (http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20100318/tommy_douglas_100318/20100318?hub=Canada&s_name=)'

luckily mcp was early on and there was nutt'n to it

Popeye
03-18-2010, 10:53 AM
was what you started with, essentially what you have now, or has it changed greatly...i can bring me and mine in to see my family doctor or drop into an 'outpatients' clinic anytime i please .. n/c

open heart surgery , quadruple bypass .. n/c

lots of cost shared private insurance plans for prescription drugs , dental , specs etc .. all affordable and available no matter your income level

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
03-18-2010, 10:56 AM
Apparently all of you have luxuriated in the fact that you have had socialized national health care programs for a long long time. I'd like you guys, if your memory is good enough to recall to tell us how long and how hard the debate was in your own countries to arrive at your present ideal health care systems.

Before my time - 'n I'm older than most dirt.

Realistically - '45 to '48 - and then endless minor tweaks.

downthecreek
03-18-2010, 11:00 AM
Apparently all of you have luxuriated in the fact that you have had socialized national health care programs for a long long time. I'd like you guys, if your memory is good enough to recall to tell us how long and how hard the debate was in your own countries to arrive at your present ideal health care systems.

I wasn't following the debate at the time, having come to it rather late and having been incarcerated in the womb as the final stages raged around us.

It didn't take that long - initiated at the end of WW2 - 1945 - and legislation taking effect in 1948. I believe it was a tough fight and the retention of the private system alongside the NHS was really a concession that was necessary to gain the support of the senior doctors.

Politically, however, I think there was widespread support. The country was devastated and bankrupted by the war and there had been tremendous suffering both amongst the armed forces and civilians. Pretty much the whole population was significantly affected. The two wars both paved the way for tremendous social change, springing not least, I suspect, from the powerful sense of national unity they engendered. So I don't think we ever went through the kind of virulent political and societal battles you are seeing over there.

downthecreek
03-18-2010, 11:01 AM
Also, was what you started with, essentially what you have now, or has it changed greatly... thanks (and thanks Paul P - for posting an interesting question)

The key principle remains the same, but there is constant evolution and change - not always for the better.

LeeG
03-18-2010, 11:17 AM
Politically, however, I think there was widespread support. The country was devastated and bankrupted by the war and there had been tremendous suffering both amongst the armed forces and civilians. Pretty much the whole population was significantly affected. The two wars both paved the way for tremendous social change, springing not least, I suspect, from the powerful sense of national unity they engendered. So I don't think we ever went through the kind of virulent political and societal battles you are seeing over there.


we've got the two wars but maybe we've got to break down a bit more?

mmd
03-18-2010, 11:19 AM
Although a bit light-weight as far as history goes, the tidbits of interviews in the late 1960's with the major players in the Canadian Medicare implementation might prove educational. From the CBC archives:

http://archives.cbc.ca/health/health_care_system/topics/90/

LeeG
03-18-2010, 11:28 AM
That's why we have a ways to go.

btw thanks for the education.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beveridge_Report

hokiefan
03-18-2010, 11:30 AM
No, you didn't really get two wars. No rationing, no blackout, no bombing.



We had a bit of rationing, and some blackout practice. I remember well my Mom talking about it. But you're quite right that we didn't experience the wars like Europe did.

There was talk about nationalizing health care here after WWII. I believe Truman wanted to do that, but didn't have the support. Just went over this stuff with my son helping him study for his mid-terms.

Cheers,

Bobby

TimH
03-18-2010, 11:32 AM
Apparently all of you have luxuriated in the fact that you have had socialized national health care programs for a long long time. I'd like you guys, if your memory is good enough to recall to tell us how long and how hard the debate was in your own countries to arrive at your present ideal health care systems.

Apple to Oranges I think. Like DownTheCreek said, they had a key element that we certainly do not have - Unity.

Popeye
03-18-2010, 11:36 AM
they had on tv last nite the nostradamus effect juxtaposed against biblical calamities forecasting the end of the world as we know it

next i tested guinness against st johns stout to see which was better

i liked sjs better

LeeG
03-18-2010, 11:39 AM
Apple to Oranges I think. Like DownTheCreek said, they had a key element that we certainly do not have - Unity.

good point, I don't think we'll get it.

downthecreek
03-18-2010, 11:39 AM
No, you didn't really get two wars. No rationing, no blackout, no bombing.


I really do believe the war, as experienced here (as you say - something totally outside the experience of most Americans) was a key factor. Added to that, there were the political and rhetorical skills and sheer determination of Nye Bevan.

The Tories certainly did oppose the NHS bills, as did the BMA, but Nye fought like a demon and he had the people behind him. By July 1948, when the legislation came into force, 90% of the doctors had signed up.

Brian Palmer
03-18-2010, 11:42 AM
New Yorker Magazine had an article about the "evolution" of Canadian and European health insurance systems a few months ago. You can probably find it in their archives. I won't try to summarize it here since I would be out of my league and over my head.

Brian

Paul Pless
03-18-2010, 11:51 AM
By July 1948, when the legislation came into force, 90% of the doctors had signed up.so a four year fight for health care then?

downthecreek
03-18-2010, 11:58 AM
so a four year fight for health care then?

No. 1945 to 1948 is three years and, as the legislation came into force in July 1948, we are probably looking at two and a half years, maximum, for the system to devised, put through parliament and be up and running.

I think that was a considerable feat of organisation. So was the organisation and administration of rationing throughout the country. I can't see the incompetent mediocrities we have governing us now achieving any such thing.

Popeye
03-18-2010, 12:04 PM
stomach pump .. n/c

leg amputation .. n/c

birth'n babies .. n/c

Bruce Taylor
03-18-2010, 12:13 PM
In Canada, the chief battleground was the province of Saskatchewan.

Saskatchewan Premier Tommy Douglas passed the Medical Care Insurance Act in 1961. The following year, on the day the new act took effect, doctors -- worried about compensation and professional autonomy -- went on strike.

From the Encyclopedia of Saskatchewan (http://esask.uregina.ca/entry/medicare.html):


The Regina Leader-Post was vicious in its attacks; while doctors, with the moral support of the American Medical Association, were merciless, warning their patients that most doctors would be leaving the province if “socialized” medicine were introduced. Patients in turn appealed to their elected members. The Opposition Liberal Party promised to bring in their own scheme, which if it had seen the light of day would have left patients in much the same situation as patients in the USA find themselves today. If Woodrow Lloyd had withdrawn the legislation, the story of national medicare might never have been written. Through the mediation of Lord Taylor, a physician whom the government had brought from England, the strike came to an end after twenty-three days, and things returned more or less to normal.

The strike lasted just three weeks. Under the terms of the settlement, doctors received a boost in fees, and -- more importantly -- they were given the right to opt out of the medicare system (a right they retain to this day, but seldom use).

The party that brought in the legislation (the social democratic CCF) lost power in 1964, but by then Medicare was too popular to touch (even doctors came around to it, in the end).

Saskatchewan's success provided a model for the other provinces. Federal funding for provincial insurance was formally enacted in 1966.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
03-18-2010, 12:14 PM
.....
I think that was a considerable feat of organisation. So was the organisation and administration of rationing throughout the country. I can't see the incompetent mediocrities we have governing us now achieving any such thing.

Which is rather a shame, as we still have most of the problems - perhaps time to commission a new report.

martin schulz
03-18-2010, 12:22 PM
I'd like you guys, if your memory is good enough to recall to tell us how long and how hard the debate was in your own countries to arrive at your present ideal health care systems.

If I remember correctly Bismarck installed the social security (starting with accident insurance) laws around 1890. The reason behind those laws was not a humanistic approach, but to disturb the establishment of social-workers parties. If the government provides the necessary security, including old-age pensions and health insurance, then there is no need to vote the social democrats - was his reasoning.

J P
03-18-2010, 12:32 PM
If I remember correctly Bismarck installed the social security (starting with accident insurance) laws around 1890. The reason behind those laws was not a humanistic approach, but to disturb the establishment of social-workers parties. If the government provides the necessary security, including old-age pensions and health insurance, then there is no need to vote the social democrats - was his reasoning.

I was just reading about that the other day. I posted on another healthcare reform thread:


I was doing a little reading on the history of workers’ comp and learned that it goes back to Otto von Bismarck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_von_Bismarck) and the first welfare state, Germany, in the 1880’s. Bismarck, an anti-socialist, implemented social legislation to gain popularity with the working and middle class and divert them away from pursuing socialism. How’s that for politics?


Bismarck’s social program included health insurance, accident insurance (workers’ comp), old age and disability insurance. Interestingly, “The first bill that had success was the Health Insurance bill, which was passed in 1883. The program was considered the least important from Bismarck’s point of view, and the least politically troublesome.”

I found that interesting.

Harry Miller
03-18-2010, 01:22 PM
One thing that bears repeating (Bruce mentioned it in a previous thread) is that we don't have "socialized medicine". Doctors work for themselves and are paid on what is a piecework system, so much for a visit, so much for a certain procedure etc. If no patients knock on their doors they get no money. Negotiation takes place between their unions and the government as to the amount the government will pay for each visit or procedure that the doctor deems medically necessary. (Bruce can ask Maggie to correct me.)

Popeye
03-18-2010, 01:39 PM
If no patients knock on their doors they get no money.

where i am there are no doctors accepting new patients

the wait list to see a specialist is on the order of months

John B
03-18-2010, 01:59 PM
Thank goodness I'm not old enough for this thread.

paladin
03-18-2010, 02:06 PM
No, you didn't really get two wars. No rationing, no blackout, no bombing.

I remember rationing...sugar, flour, gasoline etc.....blackouts....I spent some time in the middle of the Golden Gate bridge during a blackout, dad couldn't move the car because there was mini subs reported in the harbor/bay....

Japan launched firebombs that flew over Oregon etc and started forest fires Just minor things like Pearl Harbor for fighting on our soil.....

sorta mild compared to everyone else.

TomF
03-18-2010, 02:08 PM
I know your Brits and Aussies and Canadians are just covering up the horrors stories our Republicans told us about. Come on tell us how you stood around and did nothing while your parents and children died waiting on line in the snow.They might have died while waiting in the snow in Aus, but here in Canada we're civilized.

We've got a system of igloos where people wait.

oznabrag
03-18-2010, 02:25 PM
One thing that bears repeating (Bruce mentioned it in a previous thread) is that we don't have "socialized medicine". Doctors work for themselves and are paid on what is a piecework system, so much for a visit, so much for a certain procedure etc. If no patients knock on their doors they get no money. Negotiation takes place between their unions and the government as to the amount the government will pay for each visit or procedure that the doctor deems medically necessary. (Bruce can ask Maggie to correct me.)

This sounds like the relationship a lot of automobile-dealership mechanics have (used to have?) with their employers. Without the unions, most likely, but paid by the piece. Every maintenance and repair procedure is outlined and assigned a labor value.

LeeG
03-18-2010, 02:26 PM
They might have died while waiting in the snow in Aus, but here in Canada we're civilized.

We've got a system of igloos where people wait.

is it true that igloos have healing energy like pyramids? I had a job interview in a plywood pyramid and it made me feel very awkward.

TomF
03-18-2010, 02:26 PM
We've had a Surgical Access initiative running here. In the last year we've cut median waits by a third, cancer waits by 40%, and the number of folks waiting in the longest line by 60%.

We have had issues delivering the same quality of care in rural places with low population densities - people have to travel to see specialists, if they live in the back of beyond. You'd think that people who choose to live in the back of beyond might know that .. from noticing a lack of specialty goods in their supermarkets, for instance, and exercising a bit of logic.

You'd be mistaken.

TomF
03-18-2010, 02:29 PM
is it true that igloos have healing energy like pyramids? I had a job interview in a plywood pyramid and it made me feel very awkward.Plywood igloos are worse; the damned pieces keep dropping on you.

And as the wonderful Far Side cartoon described, you've got to be careful of polar bears. Remember the one where 2 polar bears were busting up an igloo? "I love these things! Hard crunchy coating, soft chewy centres!"

shamus
03-18-2010, 02:48 PM
Medicare as the public health system came in in Australia in the early 1970s as far as I remember. I think one difference which may have caused less fuss waas that many private health insurers were mutual non profit organisations.
Under a later government the universal public system was changed so that you have the opyion to privately insure if you want to. Everyone however still pays a 1.5% levy, or thereabouts. Waiting lists for public non urgent surgery have grown the last few years. I had to wait a few weeks for a hernia op in 1990- these days you might wait quite a bit longer.

isla
03-18-2010, 03:37 PM
The introduction of the NHS in 1948 relied heavily on the fact that post-war regeneration would provide full employment. Every working man would pay his National Insurance contribution, and this would provide free healthcare, on demand, for all his family. In line with most Brits I am totally committed to this method of providing healthcare, and it has served me well. It cannot be denied that there are funding difficulties in today's NHS. Starting in the mid-70s with the oil crisis, unemployment started to rise steeply. Margaret Thatcher's 'reign' saw a serious decline in Britain's industrial base, and unemployment reached record levels, 20% in some regions. So the NHS suffered a funding crisis, and even today it continues to be under pressure. Nevertheless, it is still able to provide first-class healthcare, at a cost which is easily affordable by the majority of ordinary working people.

Would I change it for an American style system? Absolutely not!

Whidbey_One
03-18-2010, 03:55 PM
i can bring me and mine in to see my family doctor or drop into an 'outpatients' clinic anytime i please .. n/c

open heart surgery , quadruple bypass .. n/c

lots of cost shared private insurance plans for prescription drugs , dental , specs etc .. all affordable and available no matter your income level


Yeah, but if you want to see a specialist in time to save your life, you have to go south of the border.

mmd
03-18-2010, 04:06 PM
No, you don't. If your medical condition is life-threatening, you move to the front of the line to see the specialist. Where do you get this bullcrap?

stevebaby
03-18-2010, 04:15 PM
Apparently all of you have luxuriated in the fact that you have had socialized national health care programs for a long long time. I'd like you guys, if your memory is good enough to recall to tell us how long and how hard the debate was in your own countries to arrive at your present ideal health care systems.There was hardly any. It was universally accepted and welcomed. Any political party which tried to get rid of it here would fall.

Anthony Zucker
03-18-2010, 04:18 PM
Although I'm American I experienced the Israeli system as a youth(combat wound, snake bite, flu) and I know a little of its background. I thought the care was excellent, nurses were fabulous, but I was in my twenties and didnt know much.

It started in the early 1900s with some people copying the British system and others copying the german labor union system. After '48 it became a universal plan, employers or individual mandatory tax. It has evolved into four different government sponsored carriers which tend to take care of different parts of society but lots of overlap. There is also an additional private policy for elective procedures and better accomodations. But everyone, including Arabs, gets coverage for anything needed. Also, tourists for emergencies. Many Europeans and Americans come for surgery because its much less expensive and major hospitals like Haddasah are world class. Arabs from neighboring countries are always coming for treatment. They pay cash.

In those international comparisons Israel is way ahead of the US on general health, longevity, etc. Health cost is half of what the us spends on GDP and I dont believe that waiting for service is an issue. Docs only make the equivalent of $60k, the same as a tenured prof.

downthecreek
03-18-2010, 04:26 PM
I know your Brits and Aussies and Canadians are just covering up the horrors stories our Republicans told us about. Come on tell us how you stood around and did nothing while your parents and children died waiting on line in the snow.

Well, I have terrible trouble persuading my 95 year old mother to let me make a GP appointment for her. She knows they'll see her on the same day and make an appointment with the specialist at the teaching hospital at the drop of a hat. She's always moaning that they are trying much too hard to keep her alive. Amazingly, there is no sign of any death panel. What can they be thinking of?

My husband had a slightly alarming episode one Sunday. Monday morning I dragged him off to see our excellent GP. My Goodness - only 40 minutes with the doctor, who ordered several tests to rule out anything too serious. It took a whole week to get the tests all completed at the local hospital and get back to the GP to discuss the results!

My two most recent appalling experiences were a serious illness 8 years ago and when I slipped on the ice before this Christmas and busted a hip. It took no less than three minutes for one of the village "First Responders" to turn up (volunteers trained, equipped and supported by the ambulance service) and take charge of me. Next, a fast ambulance car with paramedic to look after me until the ambulance appeared. That was a little delayed because all the world and his wife was falling on the ice that day, but I was well looked after.

A whole ten minutes before they could import me into an examination room, so the ambulance crew staid with me until they were ready. Spotless A&E Dept. ECG, bloods, morphine, examination by the A&E doctor, X ray all in quick succession, then a visit from an orthopaedic surgeon to discuss the options.

On to a spotless and hi tech trauma and orthopaedic ward staffed by skilled and friendly nurses. Surgery, out of bed the next day, physio and occupational therapist the next, getting me going and sorting out what I would need at home. Discharged the next day with crutches and necessary equipment on long term loan, a supply of painkilling drugs, plus a letter to my GP.

Down to the GP surgery 10 days later to get the clips taken out by a community nurse (who would have come to my house if I'd needed it) Regular follow up with the consultant and appointments with the community physiotherapist for as long as I need them. I'm doing great! :)

The experience 8 years ago with cancer was equally hellish. I was genuinely sad when they finally discharged me (with the option of continuing to see them regularly if I wished and the exhortation to call them straight away if I was the slightest bit worried and they would see me immediately) I felt I was saying goodbye to friends and could tell many tales of the excellent service and extraordinary kindness I encountered there. That was an experience I shall remember with profound gratitude for the rest of my life.

Yes indeed - the NHS is a nightmare! :D

Edited to add: Food in both hospitals of my recent experience perfectly OK. Wide choice, with always the option of requesting something not on the menu, like soup, baked potato with cheese, salad, baguette sandwiches etc. In the one 8 years ago, you could also request anything from the menu of the hospital staff and visitors restaurant (good) and they would have it brought for you. On one occasion, a chef came to visit me - they had noticed that I wasn't eating a great deal and wanted to know if there was anything I would like them to cook for me. All very disappointing - nothing to complain of at all!

Stiletto
03-18-2010, 05:03 PM
It seems that NZ's system was originally modelled on the British one.

When I was a kid, the doctor's consultation and even our prescriptions were free. With the increase in available drugs, a charge was introduced, also a smallish charge for the consultation. Currently about NZ$18.00 where I live.

Many people carry health insurance (often provided as part of a salary package) which pays for treatment in private clinics without having to go on a waiting list. These policies also pay, or part pay for what is known as elective surgery.
There are more and more people opting out of health insurance schemes which they paid for themselves as the premiums rise every year.
This is why the concept of health "insurance" is a flawed model. Sooner or later nearly everyone makes a claim. Insurance only works when most people dont claim, and therefore fund those that do.

The public health system has lots of critics, but if you need immediate treatment for an accident or other emergency it works quite well.

My elderly mother fell and badly broke her hip. She was taken to the hospital and a hip replacement operation was performed with no bill to her at the end. More recently she had unusual chest pains and was immediately admitted for observation overnight. Fortunately it wasnt a heart condition.

Public health systems are about rationing the resources to reflect the budget available. What the available buget is set at is a hard fought political decision.

NZ has no public dental or optical system for adults. Kids get free dental care to about age 16, or when they leave high school. I think there is a limited subsidy for kids glasses. Welfare agencies can pick up the tab for poor adults needing these things.

oznabrag
03-18-2010, 05:20 PM
No, you don't. If your medical condition is life-threatening, you move to the front of the line to see the specialist. Where do you get this bullcrap?

He gets it from the disciples of Goebbels.

Be careful, he may already be a RWZ!

WX
03-18-2010, 05:24 PM
Even though our system has been stuffed around a bit by successive governments, some of whom have tried to dismember it I wouldn't swap it for the old system we had.

PeterSibley
03-18-2010, 05:30 PM
Right-oh!

Last week my wife noticed a spot. I worried about this and badgered her into seeing our GP. Two days later she was seeing the consultant at our area hospital who said there was nothing to worry about.Had it been malignant she would of course have died while on the waiting list.

Next horror story - a few years ago I gave myself a small hernia. I did have to wait a few months but then I was phoned by our area hospital who said they were running a waiting list reduction campaign and had booked me into our local Nuffield (private) hospital where I had to put up with an excellent German surgeon and anaesthetist "moonlighting" over the weekend for extra cash. I even had flowers in my room - it was awful!

Worse still, my son needs complex orthodontic treatment. He's having to wait six whole weeks before having surgery. The other son was born by Caesarian section one whole day later than we had hoped, just to suit the convenience of the obstetrician.

All of this has cost us precisely nothing. Dreadful, isn't it!

The Australian medical fraternity tend to take "spots" seriously .A friend went to his GP about one recently (Medicare of course ) , it was not the type you want to keep and it was gone within 24 hours .No wait , no fuss , a $15 payment I believe .

Hernias...I waited 10 months , inconvenient but not painful , no real problem.When my turn came it was quick and efficient .No payment .

Emergencies are zero waiting ,I docked my right thumb off at work a few years ago ,waiting time was 5 hours while more serious injuries were dealt with .The reattachment and physio were all paid for by Medicare .

As to when it all started ,I'm 60 and I can't remember back far enough .No government in Australia will touch Medicare , it is much loved by left and right , they know a popular policy when they see one .

I do have distant memories of a policeman in New Zealand (where I grew up ) trying to get an injured American tourist to give him a local address so the visitor could be hospitalised free of charge and sent home in good fettle !:)

Phillip Allen
03-18-2010, 05:49 PM
They might have died while waiting in the snow in Aus, but here in Canada we're civilized.

We've got a system of igloos where people wait.

Cool...

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-18-2010, 05:57 PM
Yep, 1961, the birth of socialized medicine in Canada. The USA still had segregation then didn't it?

Dan McCosh
03-18-2010, 07:04 PM
Yep, 1961, the birth of socialized medicine in Canada. The USA still had segregation then didn't it?

What is the difference between a registered and an unregistered Indian under the Canadian Indian Act?

The Bigfella
03-18-2010, 07:15 PM
Is this thread getting political?

PeterSibley
03-18-2010, 07:19 PM
Is this thread getting political?

Nup ,just a genuine open enquiry answered as such .:rolleyes:

The Bigfella
03-18-2010, 07:22 PM
Nup ,just a genuine open enquiry answered as such .:rolleyes:

posts 51 and 52?

WX
03-18-2010, 07:22 PM
I took a German friend to the doctor once, the Doc used my Medicare card.

WX
03-18-2010, 07:47 PM
Could the right in America be be lying about you people and your healthcare?? Could it be??? But really....you do have death panels...right??

Yes and no in that order. You Americans should stop being so paranoid.
Set up your national health scheme, pay your 1 or 2% health levy with your taxes and get on with it.

Captain Intrepid
03-18-2010, 07:50 PM
Could the right in America be be lying about you people and your healthcare?? Could it be??? But really....you do have death panels...right??

No death panels, we simply leave it up to the sick and elderly to decide for themselves when to set themselves afloat on an ice floe instead of being a drain on society.

WX
03-18-2010, 07:53 PM
No death panels, we simply leave it up to the sick and elderly to decide for themselves when to set themselves afloat on an ice floe instead of being a drain on society.

Death by Dingo here. We take em to the Outback, tie a steak to them and let em run. It's the hottest selling reality show here.:D

PeterSibley
03-18-2010, 08:06 PM
Death by Dingo here. We take em to the Outback, tie a steak to them and let em run. It's the hottest selling reality show here.:D

It never works , the dingo goes for the steak .:D

skuthorp
03-19-2010, 01:49 AM
It never works , the dingo goes for the steak .:D

Well, what would you choose, some tough scrawny old geezer or a nice bit of rump? We don't even have Vultures to clean 'em up. In the end the Territory is crawling with feral grannies and the greenies are up in arms. What with grannies, camels, donkeys and brumbies (wild horses) the joint isn't safe. But the pubs do OK, all those pension cheques coming in every fortnight...........

Presuming Ed
03-19-2010, 03:16 AM
Here in the UK, when the panel says your time has come, it death by nice cups of tea and battenburg cake. Very important that there's no fuss.

downthecreek
03-19-2010, 03:26 AM
Could the right in America be be lying about you people and your healthcare?? Could it be??? But really....you do have death panels...right??

Watching from across the Atlantic the torrent of lies that Americans have been told (and, apparently, chosen to believe) about "socialized medicine" it has been difficult to know whether to laugh or cry.

The funniest was, perhaps, the assertion that Stephen Hawking would have been "left to die" if he had lived in England! Oh, my! I saw that on the net and e mailed the relevant editor to remind him that Stephen Hawking was English, had always lived in England, had always worked in England and had always received his medical care from the National Health Service (to be precise, Addenbrooke's Hospital in Cambridge)

No reply or acknowledgment, but within half an hour the passage in question had been removed and a "correction" inserted, as inconspicuously as possible, that said "Nothing is this article was intended to imply that Stephen Hawking did not live in England" :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

That pretty much sums up both the accuracy and the integrity of the propaganda. How pitiful it is that such important questions are now debated pretty much at the level of the school playground.

martin schulz
03-19-2010, 03:34 AM
...and who were able to defend the Establisment by taking the wind out of the sails of the Socialist and Liberal parties by "stealing their clothes" (as both of them would have put it) - making off with their best policies.

Which, as we experience everyday is only possible when those in charge are able to decide without feeling the pressure of Lobbys, election campaigns and the media.

Something which appears to be a mere fantasy today :(

skuthorp
03-19-2010, 03:41 AM
Battenberg cake eh? I wonder if the grannies would like that?
Recipie?

cookie
03-19-2010, 03:59 AM
Here's our story (the Dutch that is).

First sort of communal health care systems emerged around 1800.
This system was not introduced on a national scale, but debates to do so had been going on for a long time. Especially fierce debates around 1912.
Then some German (or was he Austrian) fellow with a funny mustache decided that the Netherlands could not stay behind "The Reich" and took the decision for us in 1941.

downthecreek
03-19-2010, 04:14 AM
Battenberg cake eh? I wonder if the grannies would like that?
Recipie?

You don't want to know! Battenberg Cake is unspeakable. What you may not have grasped is that the Battenberg cake mentioned above is the Death Panel's chosen Instrument of Death! (The tea is just to help it go down - choking comes under the category "fuss")

http://peasepudding.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/battenberg.jpg

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
03-19-2010, 04:22 AM
Is that a real one - one that has never known captivity or the inside of a cellophane wrapper.

The phrase "to die for" comes to mind.

skuthorp
03-19-2010, 04:30 AM
Hmm............. interesting. Does it come on the National Health? My grannie always reckoned that medicinal brandy (isn't it all?) should come on a subsidised doctors scrip.

Presuming Ed
03-19-2010, 05:00 AM
https://my.supplychain.nhs.uk/catalogue/product/aab009/alcoholic-beverages-guinness-440ml

Hic!

skuthorp
03-19-2010, 05:51 AM
Quick, someone tell Paul Fitzgerald!

bob winter
03-19-2010, 05:52 AM
This ongoing healthcare debate in the states amazes me. Clearly, the country is out to lunch.

I remember when Canada's present system came into being. I can't really recall that there was a great deal of debate. My maternal grandfather died in 1921 from the flu because he was cash tight and would not prevail on a doctor to provide services that he could not immediately pay for. My maternal grandmother came down with a nasty case of cancer in the early 1930's, she survived but only because she was lucky enough to have remarried to a man of considerable means. She spent six months in hospital in Toronto and he paid the whole shot out of his own pocket. It was a terrible burden financially and I don't think he ever recovered from it financially.

It is my view that government has a duty to provide certain basic services to the population. As society seems to become more and more complex, the services required do as well. Healthcare is part of the national infrastructure and should be regarded as such. Canadians could do with better healthcare services and they will no doubt come in time but it may take a while. The present healthcare system does not cover dental or prescriptions for the general population and this can be a real problem for people. It also does nothing in the area of lost income due to illness which, once again, can be a serious problem.

I am very fortunate of be over 65 and to be living where I am because I get my medications for a flat $ 100 per year plus a dispensing fee of $ 4.12 per prescription. This was not a big deal until last year when I was diagnosed with macular degeneration. Both my parents had the same disease and they both became pretty much blind but now there are treatments available that, I am told, can hold the disease off for a long time. Only problem is that the shots I have to get in my eyes every six to eight weeks cost $ 1,750 a pop. Two eyes, you are looking at $ 3,500 per visit and, if I were younger, I would be paying out of my own pocket. I could do it, although it would be painful, but a lot of folks can't. What are they expected to do, go blind?

Bring on socialized medicine, I'm up for it.

isla
03-19-2010, 06:46 AM
When you get to 60 in the UK all your prescriptions are free. Also free bus travel and concessions on rail travel. That's socialism for you..:p

Bruce Taylor
03-19-2010, 07:04 AM
The present healthcare system does not cover dental or prescriptions for the general population and this can be a real problem for people. It also does nothing in the area of lost income due to illness which, once again, can be a serious problem. .

Quebec mandates prescription coverage. Interestingly, it's not single-payer. There is, to use the American jargon, a "public option" administered by our provincial health insurer, but we can choose a private plan, if we prefer. To qualify, a private insurer has to meet certain minimum requirements concerning coverage, deductibles, etc.

We have a private plan, for some reason (something to do with Maggie's medical association, I think). In a house full of asthmatics, it doesn't take long to use up the annual deductible.

In Quebec, as in Manitoba, Saskatchewan and B.C., we also have public automobile insurance for personal injury (with private insurance for damages). It's interesting to note that auto insurance is much cheaper in the four provinces that have public coverage.

Flying Orca
03-19-2010, 07:17 AM
Slight correction: Manitoba Public Insurance covers injury AND damage, and is mandatory. And last I heard, the cheapest car insurance in the country. I pay about $100 a month for the car (2008 Suzuki SX4 loaded) and another $40 or so annually for my license.

bob winter
03-19-2010, 07:17 AM
Quebec, it seems to me, is more socialist than any other province I am aware of. They have public daycare at $ 7 a day, far cheaper than daycare in Ontario. Quebec also has serious financial problems, but most provinces do these days.

TomF
03-19-2010, 07:21 AM
What is the difference between a registered and an unregistered Indian under the Canadian Indian Act?Assuming this isn't just a dig ... the "registered Indian" has Aboriginal rights recognized by the Constitution, in addition to rights enjoyed by all other citizens of Canada. The Feds have particular responsibility - particularly for those who ordinarily live on-reserve, thanks to certain sections of the Constitution ... though there's been political battling between Feds, Provinces, and Bands themselves over just what those are, and how they ought to be expressed. They've typically been expressed execrably inadequately, thanks.

But both "registered Indians residing on-reserve" and other Aboriginal folk and are full citizens, with full civil rights, voting rights etc.

Flying Orca
03-19-2010, 07:21 AM
That's one area where Manitoba lags way behind. I'd like to see Quebec's childcare model spread across the country, though of course not every province can afford it.

bob winter
03-19-2010, 07:28 AM
Affording it is the problem. Ontario certainly couldn't afford it at the moment, which is a pity because it looks like it is going to cost the son and his wife a fortune to get daycare for the grandson,

Popeye
03-19-2010, 07:28 AM
though of course not every province can afford it.

no , not every one .. ;)

Bruce Taylor
03-19-2010, 07:29 AM
I pay about $100 a month for the car (2008 Suzuki SX4 loaded) and another $40 or so annually for my license.

That doesn't seem all that cheap to me. Insuring both our 2004 Volvo XC70 and 2002 Subaru Legacy costs us $1065.75 a year. I don't think it was much more when the cars were new.

License renewal costs me a hundred, tho'.

Insuring our old Honda cost us a hundred bucks a year, but it, um didn't deserve any more.

Popeye
03-19-2010, 07:30 AM
i've got a microscopic fiddle here somewhere ..

TomF
03-19-2010, 07:32 AM
As non-Canadian readers will have just observed ... it's a misnomer to talk about a "Canadian health care system." Provinces develop their own health care systems; health care is a provincial responsibility under our Constitution. And the programs do vary somewhat across the country - not only in the mechanisms for delivery, but in the specific services provided.

That said, the variation is in what are not considered to be "insured services under the Canada Health Act," which is the ground floor we've been talking of needing to exist (IMO at least) in a public option in the US. That federal Act that I referenced earlier gives the conditions which Provincial systems must meet in order for the Provinces to qualify to receive Federal subsidy for health care - it stands at about 25% of the overall cost just now.

What provinces may choose to do for things which are in addition to "insured services" is up to them - hence the great variety in how prescription drugs, home care, dental or opthamological care show up.

downthecreek
03-19-2010, 07:38 AM
When you get to 60 in the UK all your prescriptions are free.


As are prescriptions for children under 16, pregnant women and those suffering from certain chronic conditions requiring long term medication. Also, drugs prescribed in hospital are free.

Other people pay a flat rate (£7.10) which is the same whatever the cost of the drugs involved. There are pre-payment schemes etc. that can ease the costs for non exempt prescriptions that are frequently required.

When equipment is needed - medical, nursing, mobility aids etc. this is normally supplied on loan.

Rational Root
03-19-2010, 07:56 AM
In Ireland, if you can afford it you go private.

Unless you are happy to join a long long queue.

isla
03-19-2010, 08:00 AM
In Ireland, if you can afford it you go private.

Unless you are happy to join a long long queue.

That's because all the nurses are in England :p

Popeye
03-19-2010, 08:01 AM
there is abuse , and there will be abuse in the american system i predict

you will need a priority system set-up , sadly this means , the elderly and infirm will be shuffled to the back of the line

Canoez
03-19-2010, 08:08 AM
I know that SWMBO's family in the UK pay higher taxes than we do here in the US, but that the services that they get are, to a degree, better than what we have here in the US.

My MIL has had care in the UK under both National Health and a private health insurance plan at different times and has noticed little difference between the two. (The private insurance was intended to cover a medical issue more quickly than would have been resolved under the National Health - a difference of only a month, but that would have been a problem for a previously scheduled vacation.)

My niece gets excellent care for a condition with specialists at Great Ormand Street Hospital at no cost.

My BIL has dialysis treatment and has had a transplant both at no cost.

When visiting as a "guest" in the UK I was ill and was seen by the local GP at very little cost. (About ₤10 IIRC with a very small cost for the prescription.)

I guess what I don't understand is why some people here in the US think so little of their fellow man as to not want to see their physical and mental health care taken care of at what will more than likely be a very small cost to all of us as a group.

downthecreek
03-19-2010, 08:33 AM
My MIL has had care in the UK under both National Health and a private health insurance plan at different times and has noticed little difference between the two.

I have been a patient in a private hospital and I would concur with that view. Insurance will certainly buy you greater choice in the timing of your treatment and, in many cases, quicker admission for elective surgery. It will also buy you glitzier surroundings and grander food. There may even be a wine list - something the NHS does not run to, sadly. You might well get these perks on the NHS as well, as the NHS makes quite a lot of use of private beds.

In most cases, the medical treatment will be no different from that delivered by the NHS - not least because the consultant almost certainly works in both systems. The surgeon operating on the Saudi prince at the London Clinic today will likely be performing the same procedure in a similarly equipped operating theatre on a poor immigrant from Bangla Desh at the Royal London Hospital tomorrow.

In many cases, NHS hospitals are the best bet if you have a complex illness or need major surgery - because they have better cover and a wider range of specialist services than most private hospitals do.

As I have mentioned here before, insurance is very affordable. I did have it when I was a Company Director and my premium (in my fifties and with some "history" in my medical records) was about £370 per year, with a £2500 deductible. Even at that price, I saw no reason to maintain the insurance when we closed the company as I am very well satisfied with the medical care - primary and secondary - that is available to me here from the NHS.

Canoez
03-19-2010, 08:46 AM
...on the wine list comment.

The last time my MIL was in hospital was at Christmas time for some serious cardiac surgery. During her recovery in-hospital, the staff asked if she would be having visitors on Christmas Day. She said yes, that my FIL would be joining her. The staff enquired if he would be staying for lunch. Her reply - "Can he?" Their response - "Certainly."

The meal they each had was a well prepared (but low fat and low sodium) traditional meal of turkey and all the trimmings right down to Christmas cake - served with a bottle of sparkling wine!

TomF
03-19-2010, 08:48 AM
...The meal they each had was a well prepared (but low fat and low sodium) traditional meal of turkey and all the trimmings right down to Christmas cake - served with a bottle of sparkling wine!
Now that doesn't happen in Canada.

Canoez
03-19-2010, 08:52 AM
Now that doesn't happen in Canada.

I'm pretty sure that it was a "special treat" as she was in hospital over the holiday. Didn't happen at any other time that I know of.

I do know that SWMBO's grandmother would spend time in a local home for the elderly run by the local council when she was poorly or if my in-laws were away traveling to be sure that she was well-cared for. They could have a bottle of their favorite tipple that the staff would keep for them and dispense at meals. That was an eye-opener for me.

Popeye
03-19-2010, 08:53 AM
been brining my turkey lately and convection roasting at a much higher temp for a shorter time

turns out crazy good ..

TomF
03-19-2010, 08:54 AM
been brining my turkey lately and convection roasting at a much higher temp for a shorter time

turns out crazy good ..brining's great, I agree - haven't done the convection roast thing.

Prolly not so great an idea for low-sodium diet tykes though.;)

Canoez
03-19-2010, 08:57 AM
A question from me - is mental health an integral part of treatment in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK, etc.? (or anything else that isn't covered that you'd find "missing"?)

Popeye
03-19-2010, 09:05 AM
Prolly not so great an idea for low-sodium diet tykes though.

definitely a sodium spike

but that's not what i'm about

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
03-19-2010, 09:09 AM
When you get to 60 in the UK all your prescriptions are free....

All are free in Wales.

I've heard that it is cheaper to administer that way - but have not seen a detailed accounting.

TomF
03-19-2010, 09:13 AM
A question from me - is mental health an integral part of treatment in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK, etc.? (or anything else that isn't covered that you'd find "missing"?)Integral in Canada, though I won't lie to you; the provision of mental health services (e.g. counseling, and/or talk therapy with a psychiatrist) is IMO woefully inadequate in most jurisdictions.

Mental illness is responsible for a stunningly large proportion of hospital days, and of the scrips written by family physicians.

downthecreek
03-19-2010, 09:24 AM
A question from me - is mental health an integral part of treatment in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK, etc.? (or anything else that isn't covered that you'd find "missing"?)

Mental health is certainly covered in the UK, although I don't think its always easy to get access to the more expensive one to one treatments like individual psychotherapy. It is available, but the demand is far greater than the supply.

Community mental health services include things like day hospitals etc. and of course, the community psychiatric nursing services. The CPNs, as they are known, are often excellent and do get to know the patients and their families pretty well. A friend of mine whose son is mentally says the CPN is the cornerstone of the whole service.

As Andrew has mentioned, there are some problems with the supply of NHS dentists in some areas, although none in my area. Examination is free, but there is a scale of charges for NHS dentistry. Same with opticians, although eye exams are free. You can always combine NHS provision with payment for extra services if you wish. There is some controversy about certain treatments, such as infertility etc. but I can't think of any significant medical issue that isn't covered at the moment.

As an illustration of what's around, here's a list of the services received by a friend of mine who died of ALS, during the last three years of her life:

Regular hospital admissions, including ITU
Regular admissions to hospice (relief for her husband) one week in every four
Home visits from specialist anesthesiologist in connection with breathing issues and consultant neurologist when required
Weekly home visits from GP
Visits from Community Nurses daily - usually four times per day
Community nurse staying overnight on six nights out of seven
Regular home visits from speech, physio and occupational therapists
Home visits from IT specialist with equipment to keep her using her computer as long as possible
Trained "sitter" on two afternoons per week (from an NHS supported charity) (relief for husband)
Loan of artificial speech equipment and related stuff
Loan of breathing and airway clearing equipment
Loan of specialist hospital bed and equipment for direct feeding
All nutriments
Loan of electric and ordinary wheelchairs
Loan of special chair for ordinary use
Loan of hospital bed
All dressings, drugs, syringes, catheters and bags, consumables etc.
Training for husband and informal carers (including me) in basic nursing procedures

Most of these services were needed for at least two years. I can't imagine what it all cost.

Of course, this is all a fantasy. She was just left to die........

Flying Orca
03-19-2010, 09:25 AM
...and homeless people, and crisis services. Medical care by mental health physicians is certainly available, but community-based support services are definitely overworked and spotty here.

TimH
03-19-2010, 09:31 AM
The right wingers are all mysteriously absent.


So, with 92 posts in the thread, is there a concensus? Unless I missed something, it does appear that our foreign bilge rats seem to uniformly praise their own health care systems, despite a few nits picked here and there.... Paul, what do you think of the responses?

bob winter
03-19-2010, 09:42 AM
I guess what I don't understand is why some people here in the US think so little of their fellow man as to not want to see their physical and mental health care taken care of at what will more than likely be a very small cost to all of us as a group.

An interesting observation. Also, just because you are healthy today, doesn't mean you will be tomorrow.

TimH
03-19-2010, 10:25 AM
I noticed that, too. Insufficient ammunition to be found here, I guess.


Too much reality for them to stomach all at once.

WX
03-19-2010, 05:48 PM
Mental heath services in Australia are there but I wouldn't say they were adequate. Back in the 80s many of the mental institutions were shut down and sold off to be redeveloped. The plan was to move the patients out into the community and set up home care facilities, sadly this part was not carried out to completion. The result now is we have quite a lot of mentally disturbed people in jail instead of managed care.

Presuming Ed
03-20-2010, 01:53 AM
A question from me - is mental health an integral part of treatment in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK, etc.? (or anything else that isn't covered that you'd find "missing"?)

From personal experience - if you really, really need it, it's there straight away.

If you need it, but it's not "life or death" (literally), then there might be a wait for psychiatry/therapy. Drugs are like any other - small charge. See the doc. Get the prescription. Done.

Presuming Ed
03-20-2010, 02:06 AM
I guess what I don't understand is why some people here in the US think so little of their fellow man as to not want to see their physical and mental health care taken care of at what will more than likely be a very small cost to all of us as a group.

Yes.

Also, there is a very effective critique of private only health insurance in Tim Harford's book The Undercover Economist.

http://www.amazon.com/Undercover-Economist-Tim-Harford/dp/0345494016/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269068725&sr=8-2-spell

john welsford
03-20-2010, 03:00 AM
A question from me - is mental health an integral part of treatment in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK, etc.? (or anything else that isn't covered that you'd find "missing"?)

In New Zealand definitely yes, my good wife is the duty manager on evening shift for a 6 ward Psyche hospital, no one has to pay, care is well up to international standards and the standard of the hospital and staffing is very good.

The rest of our health system could do with a bit more money, but it does well enough that I could not imagine living under the US system, I had a busted spine 20 years ago, still get the occasional bit of treatment to reduce scar tissue buildup around the sciatic nerve junction, and have not paid a dollar toward any of it. A few years later I cut several tendons in my hand. Ambulance to hospital, I was held for a few hours in the emergency dept, ( meals, cups of tea, chats with friendly nursing and orderly staff) and then an ambulance took me to a private hospital where a surgeon had had a cancellation and hooked all the tendons back together and stitched everything up. I stayed for two days, and was given a taxi ride home and very good after care. Same cost, nil.
I'm a mild asthmatic, costs $20 a visit to the doc, about $6 per prescription, the medications are essentially free.

I've been ill a couple of times, same story.

We here in NZ do have something that few others have, and thats a Govt managed no fault accident insurance system. We gave up the right to sue in order to get that, so we have a lot less lawyers than most countries. People complain about ACC ( Accident Compensation Corp ) but they forget what it used to be like, and dont appreciate just how good it is.

John Welsford

PeterSibley
03-20-2010, 03:35 AM
Ain't it amazing eNZed can afford a system like this but the world's superpower can't ? ;)

downthecreek
03-20-2010, 05:12 AM
So PISN informed us. Lots of differences between the provisions in the different countries that make up the UK.

I think its true to say that blanket provision is often more cost effective than selectivity, but we can't let the "undeserving" get in on the act, can we? ;)

I'm sure there is no such thing as an undeserving Welshman, woman or child. :)

Typhoon
03-20-2010, 08:00 AM
Well, I'm old enough (40) to have grown up in the Australian Medicare system.
Having grown up in a relatively income starved family (father died when I was 8 years old), I've seen how well the system works for both the poor, when I was young, and now, as an adult who chooses to have private cover.
When I was about 14 years old, as part of my regular, free visits to the Sydney Dental Hospital (the teaching hospital of Sydney University's dental department), it was decided I needed braces on my teeth to correct my nasty over bight (too many teeth in my jaws, and large teeth at that).
Three years of treatment cost my family nothing.
I also needed glasses as a kid, and an operation on one eye to sort that out, cost nothing again.
As an adult, I've had six skin cancers surgically removed by doctors in their surgeries. I paid the full amount at the time of the surgery (from $120-180). Of course, the specialist is subsidised by the government for their work, I pay some, the government pays the rest to the doctor, who "bills" Medicare directly.
When I went to the Emergency department of the local hospital here late last year to get my hand sewn back up, I waited two hours for my completely free treatment. I don't quite know where some people get 10+ hour waits in Emergency departments from, perhaps it was the whiners I saw there with head colds demanding to be seen RIGHT NOW.....but I digress.
I make about one GP visit every 5 years (when I am actually sick) and it costs me something like $90, of which I get half back.
Looking at all the above, you would ask why I have health cover? Well, when my fiance was working for a large multinational corporation, they had a fantastic deal through a private health fund for employees and spouses and we decided to keep it on after she left.
My fiance has some mildish medical issues, so it's worth it for her to retain it, and it may be of use for me some day. Plus, she gets a decent tax break for having private cover, and so do I, although I am below the threshold of requiring private cover or paying a higher Medicare levy. Our private cover will only be more and more useful as we age.
To be honest, the only people that I hear complaining about our health system are the ones trying to be leeches and go to hospital for anything and everything, because it's a free visit. Turn up to hospital with a head cold and you're going to wait a very, very long time, as you should.
As for the US and the spin doctors saying socialised healthcare is bad, don't believe a word of it. I really think the current "debate" you are all having is a symptom of a much more serious underlying problem facing your nation at the moment and it is something you should be very worried about.
I'm not quite sure what that problem is, but you don't seem to be able to mount cohesive debates and make informed decisions as a nation on anything. I think your system of lobbyists should be broken up immediately, but that's something you all have to sort out.

Regards, Andrew.

BETTY-B
03-20-2010, 10:48 AM
Great thread, Paul. Good job.

DAN

Paul Girouard
03-20-2010, 03:21 PM
#1: I'm 62;

In my town we had to battle to pass a bond to put a heating system in my kids school.

#2: Not a country you'd die for; glad they missed me in Viet Nam. (Was I a sucker or what???)



#1: You have kids IN school at 62 YO? :eek:

#2: Better to let the "other PSOB" do that, as who was it, Patton said.

As to where you a sucker , maybe, it happens.

Typhoon
03-20-2010, 05:22 PM
Typhoon that was something. Your right about the trouble in America. I'm 62; saw a guy with a list of Reds in his pocket terrorize the country, saw children hit with fire hoses trying to go to school, saw 55,000 names carved in a wall for nothing and a president take part in a petty burglery and right now is the worst and scariest I've seen it. the greed has gone grass roots. In my town we had to battle to pass a bond to put a heating system in my kids school. Added a few cents to taxes but lots of folks saw nothing wrong with other peoples kids wearing jackets in class. The us against them , I got mine screw you mindset is embedded now and passes its self off as self sufficiency. Not a country you'd die for; glad they missed me in Viet Nam. (Was I a sucker or what???)

You do what you believe is right at the time, sometimes the future takes a turn in a direction you didn't anticipate. All you can do is make a decision that is right at the time, with all the information you have at that time.
Just to be clear, I was not bashing your nation at all, I just question the system of governance as a whole, it seems your constitution or political system needs some overhauling.
From an outsider's view, you have too many tiers to your political system, decisions and ideas get corrupted and lost in the filtering media (government) and you end up with dodgy coffee at the end that no one will drink.
I don't understand how a nation (the US)with so much pride in it's history, pride in the nation itself, with so many resources and technical/production ability can have been led so far off the correct course and have little to nothing done about it.
Regards, Andrew.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
03-20-2010, 05:37 PM
Sdf.
:)

Paul Girouard
03-20-2010, 05:40 PM
[QUOTE=Andrew Craig-Bennett;2532091]

A question for the New Zealanders - could you explain why Rugby Union referees are excluded from eyesight correction under your system?

/QUOTE]

National best interest? Or how to piss-off a Englishmen.

MaizieDerrick
03-20-2010, 05:51 PM
aloha I,m a canadian living in the united states and have been here for 30 years but next year I will have no choice but to go back to canada.. Last week getting ready to haul out ceceline I felt chest pain and went to the hospital ,found out after lengthy tests that one of the arteries feeding the heart was 90% blocked, some hereditary thing apparently. anyway they did a stent and without painkiller ,which because of a complication almost died in agony..but here I am recovering but found out my drugs will cost me a thousand dollars a month for rest of my life or die, so how does one manage that?derrick

Peter Malcolm Jardine
03-20-2010, 06:47 PM
I'm not that sure the USA is going to get a public health care system. Most of the systems that are being talked about in this thread are quite old, and very successful. The US is ranked 37th in the world, and despite this, and the long standing success of other styles of healthcare systems globally, not much has changed. Oh well, in this case I guess the horse cannot even be led to water, let alone drink it.

Duncan Gibbs
03-20-2010, 07:29 PM
Awl dem udda coontras har commoonistic preverts!

Sounds like a move back to Canada is on the books Derrick.

john welsford
03-20-2010, 07:51 PM
Like all referees everwhere, there is an intelligence test as part of their pre employment test , if they pass the test they dont get the job, you know that!

John Welsford, one of the great majority of New Zealanders who could not give a stuff about rugby



[QUOTE=Andrew Craig-Bennett;2532091]

A question for the New Zealanders - could you explain why Rugby Union referees are excluded from eyesight correction under your system?

/QUOTE]

National best interest? Or how to piss-off a Englishmen.

purri
03-21-2010, 02:14 AM
^ According to the aspirant OZ conservative party, Abbott will harness feral kangaroos to attack the peons awaiting public hospital treatment.

"Gorn, geddout, that'll learn yers!":D:p

(reprising aunty jack and more recent events)

purri
03-21-2010, 02:24 AM
You don't want to know! Battenberg Cake is unspeakable. What you may not have grasped is that the Battenberg cake mentioned above is the Death Panel's chosen Instrument of Death! (The tea is just to help it go down - choking comes under the category "fuss")

http://peasepudding.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/battenberg.jpg

I hear Battenberg cake if cooked enough can skip across the Irish Sea.

varadero
03-21-2010, 04:55 AM
It is purely an insurance, some people will pay in so much more than they will ever take out, some will recieve far more than they could ever pay in. compare it to splitting a retaurant bill at the end of a meal, only not arguing who had steak? who had the pasta? It could also be compared to public education, we all pay regardless of wheather you have children, or how many, but you cannot opt out. In Spain the system works very very well. I also have private insurance, which due to the popularity works out quite cheap € 40 per month. This private care provides better rooms, nursing, and food, also faster treatment for less serious ailments, and subsidies for treatments not covered by the State plan. The high percentage of subscribers to private care also relieves pressure from the public system. Before anyone asks, private care is not provided in pubic facilities or at the expence of beds or doctors dedicated to public care.

Paul Fitzgerald
03-21-2010, 05:51 AM
A question from me - is mental health an integral part of treatment in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, UK, etc.? (or anything else that isn't covered that you'd find "missing"?)


Same thing in Oz, mental health is covered but you had better not have a psychotic illness, long term treatment facilities are almost non existent.

Paul Fitzgerald
03-21-2010, 05:54 AM
A question for the New Zealanders - could you explain why Rugby Union referees are excluded from eyesight correction under your system? ;)

You only need one eye to referee rugby in New Zealand.

But it could be worse.

South African referees are totally blind

PeterSibley
03-21-2010, 05:59 AM
Same thing in Oz, mental health is covered but you had better not have a psychotic illness, long term treatment facilities are almost non existent.

I wonder if anywhere is good in this regard? It always seems the least considered of medical fields ...if however your illness responds within a year or so , the care is good and of course , free .

downthecreek
03-21-2010, 08:06 AM
I wonder if anywhere is good in this regard? It always seems the least considered of medical fields ...if however your illness responds within a year or so , the care is good and of course , free .

The son of a close friend has a serious psychotic illness that appeared when he was around 19 or 20. He is now 41. He has been treated more or less continuously throughout the last 22 or so years, with numerous hospital admissions and many years spent living in small supported housing units. He has always been in touch with the community mental health team and has had regular contact with a Community Psychiatric Nurse. Oddly enough, my friend, his mother, has also had rather good support from the local police, who know her and him because, on one occasion, he stabbed her.

There is no doubt the care could be vastly improved and my friend, a retired Senior Lecturer in Nursing, is deeply involved in local pressure groups to achieve improvements. She is the veritable scourge of the Chief Executive of the Primary Care Trust (in charge of commissioning care locally) But, with all that room for improvement, the care is certainly there.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
03-21-2010, 08:14 AM
....

However, when the NHS proved to be a sucess, to the point where it became the "political third rail" (touch it and you die), the parties that had opposed it changed their minds and "history was re-written" by the erstwhile opponents to minimise their actual hostility to the proposals.

....

One of the interesting points is how long the NHS took to become "the third rail" - three years to be established and yet forty years on there was still an substantial anti-NHS body of opinion at the highest level in British Politics.

Perhaps two generations for the transition?

downthecreek
03-21-2010, 08:18 AM
One of the interesting points is how long the NHS took to become "the third rail" - three years to be established and yet forty years on there was still an substantial anti-NHS body of opinion at the highest level in British Politics.


I suspect there still is, in Conservative circles. But they know what's good for them, electorally.

Peerie Maa
03-21-2010, 08:56 AM
I suspect there still is, in Conservative circles. But they know what's good for them, electorally.

It was the Tories who closed all of the old mental health hospitals to be replaced by "Care in the community" without transferring any funding to the "communities" to allow it to work. Time will tell whether the current lot have really moved towards the centre in their thinking.

Peerie Maa
03-21-2010, 09:31 AM
Not surprising.... here in the US, conservatives are still trying to destroy Social Security.

It's been a pretty amusing effort, though.... arguing for 'privatization' on the notion that the stock market would represent a far better return than SS does.... only to see the stock market tank.

One of the mantras attributed to the Thatcher administration (don't know whether any of them said it, but the press sowed the seed) was that "the market place will provide". Trouble is the market place will only provide where there is a profit to be made. Those unable to work due to illness whether long or short term, are not in a position to afford to provide a profit base for businesses.

cookie
03-21-2010, 09:37 AM
The market place will provide....

Silicon boobs, botox, penile enhancement, all sorts of ridiculous surgery, as long as you pay.

And yet no service for a hard working person, who doesn't have a million in the bank (on top of his pension savings).

What a market place that is, I guess Keynes was right when he said that the market is ruled by animal spirits :rolleyes:

bob winter
03-21-2010, 09:46 AM
I guess this bill will be voted on today, from what I think I heard on the news. This whole healthcare thing in the US is a can of worms. I would think the logical thing to do would have been to bring in national healthcare. It is not as if there are not enough versions to look at in the rest of the civilized world. This American insurance lobby is quite something else.

elf
03-21-2010, 09:47 AM
I guess this bill will be voted on today, from what I think I heard on the news. This whole healthcare thing in the US is a can of worms. I would think the logical thing to do would have been to bring in national healthcare. It is not as if there are not enough versions to look at in the rest of the civilized world. This American insurance lobby is quite something else.

Logic does not apply in politics. The only logic seems to be winning points.

oznabrag
03-21-2010, 09:51 AM
Not surprising.... here in the US, conservatives are still trying to destroy Social Security.

It's been a pretty amusing effort, though.... arguing for 'privatization' on the notion that the stock market would represent a far better return than SS does.... only to see the stock market tank.

Th cynic in me says that the neo-con 'brain trust' that came up with that idea KNEW the market was gonna tank, and they hoped to steal all that money.

That's what I think.

It has been clear to me for decades that the Republican Party has no interest whatsoever in governing this country for the greater good of the people. The want to OWN the country.

bob winter
03-21-2010, 09:58 AM
Politicians are politicians the world over but the US seems to have its own unique breed. Of course, I never have been able to understand the US governmental system which makes very little sense to me. It has always appeared to me that the president has essentially the same powers as George III had when the US spilt. It may be noted that the British monarch is now pretty well powerless, likely for good reason. Evolution, no doubt.

johnw
03-21-2010, 01:34 PM
I'd say the debate has little to do with the merits of the bill under consideration. It is very similar to a bill signed into law by Mitt Romney, a leading contender for the Republican nomination for president in 2012. The Republicans made a calculation that by defeating it they could make Obama look like a failure, and take more seats at the mid-term election. If they do manage to stop it, I suppose this will turn out to be true.

I'd say the trouble with our politicians is that too many of them think governing is all about tactics for getting re-elected, rather than thinking getting elected is about governing.

Tristan
03-21-2010, 04:43 PM
I love the old bastards who scream and bitch that they don't want "socialism." Perhaps they should volunteer to give up their medicare and social security. My brother-in-law, 57, is riddled with cancer and is terminal. He has tried to work but had all his medicade benefits taken away when the powers that be found he was making a small salary in order to pay for a room and his prescriptions. He has no money and has, on and off, bee homeless, sleeping in parks and even rented storage rooms. When his pain is too much or his ostomy bags run out he has to go the the ER for help. Over and over he is prescribed pills for pain which he cannot afford. When he has been given samples he has actually had to sell the pain meds he in order to buy food and pay for bus transportation back and forth to the hospital. He is willing to work but has had to spend day after day waiting in the ER or social workers offices. Yes, we have a great system..

Dan McCosh
03-21-2010, 05:49 PM
We have National Helathcare for the retired oldsters. Midicare. They love it. The old fools scream at townhalls to keep government away from Medicare not realizing that the government runs it. for about .02 thats two cents on the dollar. Unlike the CEO of Aetna who makes 26 Million thats 26,000,000 dollars a year the person who heads up Medicare is a dedicated civil servant who makes maybe 200,000 a year. I get a kick out of the dizzy tea party grannies; they're fed up with the way government works. Do they really think that LBJ called the Reeps and explained how great it would be for old folks to have government povided healthcare and the Reeps just said your right??? Send it up to the hill so we can vote on it??? LBJ sold his soul and beat the hell out of any DEMS or REEPs who oppossed it. Made deals that the grannies choose to forget about. Paul Krugman made the point that peeling off the old folks was ultimately bad for overall healthcare legislation. If the they had a dog in this fight it would be a done deal.

I didn't know medicare was LBJ's legislation. He might be the most under-rated US president, when you toss in the Civil Rights act. Unfortunately, as one of the old folks, the current proposal doesn't look so good.

johnw
03-21-2010, 06:05 PM
From Wki;


Medicare is a social insurance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_insurance) program administered by the United States government (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_government), providing health insurance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_insurance) coverage to people who are retired and may be younger than 65, or who meet other special criteria. The program also funds residency training (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residency_%28medicine%29#Financing_residency_progr ams) programs for the vast majority of physicians in the United States. Medicare operates as a single-payer health care (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-payer_health_care) system.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_%28United_States%29#cite_note-0) The Social Security Act of 1965 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Act_of_1965) was signed into law on July 30, 1965, by President Lyndon B. Johnson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_B._Johnson) as amendments to Social Security (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_%28United_States%29) legislation. At the bill-signing ceremony President Johnson enrolled former President Harry S. Truman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_S._Truman) as the first Medicare beneficiary and presented him with the first Medicare card, and his wife Bess, the second.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicare_%28United_States%29#cite_note-1)
Johnson did a lot of stuff. Civil Rights Act, Voting Rights Act, sending thousands of American soldiers to their death in Viet Nam. The last one is the one he mainly got remembered for in his lifetime, and the reason he didn't win a second term. The Great Society legislation was what he hoped to be remembered for.

His presidency set the stage on which our politicians still act. After the Civil Rights Act passed, he said he'd lost the South for his party for a generation. Looks like he was wrong, it's about as permanent as such things can be. Viet Nam led to student protests and conflicts that still resonate in the culture wars. And Nixon's run to replace him was based on a divide-and-conquer strategy that the Republicans are still using today. His lot called it 'positive polarization,' because they figured that if they split the country in half, theirs would be the bigger half.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/05/26/080526fa_fact_packer

oznabrag
03-21-2010, 06:56 PM
...After the Civil Rights Act passed, he said he'd lost the South for his party for a generation. Looks like he was wrong, it's about as permanent as such things can be....[/URL]


I don't think he was more than 2 generations off, myself. :o

johnw
03-22-2010, 12:28 AM
It's been about two generations already. You think another one will do it? I'd say that's optimistic, but maybe with plenty of immigration...

oznabrag
03-22-2010, 12:52 AM
It's been about two generations already. You think another one will do it? I'd say that's optimistic, but maybe with plenty of immigration...

Immigration is helping, and the young people aren't so easily fooled as they once were. If you've got the internet it really doesn't matter that Birmingham is the closest thing to a 'city' within a hundred miles, anymore.

In fact, I think these kids are gonna show us things we can only imagine now.

johnw
03-22-2010, 01:07 AM
Seen this? From BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/dhtml_slides/10/us_healthcare/img/slide3.gif

Which of these groups are growing faster? Keep that in mind when you're thinking about which party is looking to the future. Of course, more Hispanics are going to have to vote if they are to have an impact.

Dumah
03-22-2010, 02:42 AM
you forgot to mention that the emergency lights on the dog sleds are now solar powered

Dumah, Halifax

oznabrag
03-22-2010, 09:13 AM
Seen this? From BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/nol/shared/bsp/hi/dhtml_slides/10/us_healthcare/img/slide3.gif

Which of these groups are growing faster? Keep that in mind when you're thinking about which party is looking to the future. Of course, more Hispanics are going to have to vote if they are to have an impact.

John, I'm a little puzzled. Was this post directed at me?

If so, I'm not getting any direct connection with our other comments.

A little clarification will be appreciated.

TIA!

johnw
03-22-2010, 01:21 PM
John, I'm a little puzzled. Was this post directed at me?

If so, I'm not getting any direct connection with our other comments.

A little clarification will be appreciated.

TIA!
It's not a response to what you've said, just something I thought you might like to know, especially since immigration is changing the South. Specifically that bottom line. Looks to me like the Republican constituents, who are predominantly white, don't need the fix as much as some of the Democratic constituents. Makes the parties seem a little more rational.

leikec
03-26-2010, 10:59 AM
I'm bumping this back to the the top.
According to our conservative friends, the non-US forumites all die young and spend their pitifully short lives waiting for inferior treatment. This thread does a good job of rebutting that nonsense....

Jeff C