Before engines

[Emma56]

Dumb question number 42 In the days before engines ,How were large ships moved away from the docks and out into the wind/ shipping lanes

[Paul Pless]

looks like it kinda sucked

http://meiere.com/rob/NovaScotiaExtra/DorySchoonerBig.jpg

[Paul Pless]

http://www.library.mun.ca/qeii/cns/photos/cnsphoto0303019.jpg

[John E Hardiman]

Actually rowing them out was rare. Even in the two pictures above, that vessel easily could have been sailed in those channels. So I think they are rowing against the wind for other reasons, such as landing the first fish of the season.

Basicly, in a roadstead, you waited for the tide and wind to take you out. Ports in the days of sailing ships were selected for the ease of getting into and out of, but sailing vessels are not as clumsy as many think, you can sail them forwards backwards and sideways often in little more than thier own length. I used to get letters from my old marina when I would sail my 26 foot sloop in and out in the 40 foot channel between the finger piers, they felt that you can only maneuver a vessel while under power [rolleyes].

For small, close harbors and river ports ships were often warped in or out and warping pilings were placed along the channel. Toulon's inner harbour is a prime example of this. In shallow harbours, kedging was used if necessary, being far more effective than rowing.

[rbgarr]

On the rivers here in Maine iron rings can still be found in the granite outcroppings along the banks. I'm guessing they were used for tying up while waiting for the tidal current and/or wind to be favorable.

[Thorne]

Towing with a lot of small boats and even warping was also done during military actions -
http://www.history.navy.mil/docs/war1812/const4.htm

At 8 four of the Enemy's Ships nearly within Gun Shot, some of them having six or eight boats ahead towing, with all their oars, and sweeps out to row them up with us, which they were fast doeing. It soon appeared that we must be taken, and that our Escape was impossible, four heavy Ships nearly within Gun Shot, and coming up fast, and not the least hope of a breeze, to give us a chance of getting off by out sailing them.

In this Situation finding ourselves in only twenty four fathoms water (by the suggestion of that valuable officer Lieutenant [Charles] Morris) I determined to try and warp the Ship ahead, by carrying out anchors and warp her up to them, Three or four hundred fathoms of rope was instantly got up, and two anchors got ready and sent ahead, by which means we began to gain ahead of the Enemy, They however soon saw our Boats carrying out the anchors, and adopted the same plan, under very advantageous circumstances, as all the Boats, from the Ship furthermost off were sent to Tow, and Warp up those nearest to us, by which means they again came up, So that at 9 the Ship nearest us began firing her bow guns, which we instantly returned by our Stern guns in the cabbin, and on the quarter Deck; All the Shots from the Enemy fell short, but we have reason to believe that some of ours went on board her, as we could not see them strike the Water.

Soon after 9 a Second Frigate passed under our lee, and opened her Broadside, but finding her shot fall short, discontinued her fire, but continued as did all the rest of them, to make every possible exertion to get up with us. From 9 to 12 all hands were employed in warping the Ship ahead, and in starting some of the water in the main Hold, to lighten her, which with the help of a light air, we rather gained of the Enemy, or at least hold our own. About 2 in the afternoon, all the Boats from the line of Battle Ship, and some of the Frigates, were sent to the Frigate nearest to us, to endeavour to tow her up, but a light breeze sprung up, which enabled us to hold way with her notwithstanding they had Eight or Ten Boats ahead, and all her sails furled to tow her to windward.

http://ask.metafilter.com/45303/How-did-massive-ships-embark-from-the-pier

http://books.google.com/books?id=sDpMh0gK2OUC&pg=PA336&lpg=PA336&dq=warping+ship+out+of+harbor&source=bl&ots=SzLY44nykk&sig=RcHfIQkY9p-eWVqlwMrENtPdmY8&hl=en&ei=J1qaS562JIvyNOTV1MwC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CCQQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=&f=false

[Lewisboats]

Human sweat...

[Emma56]

Towing with a lot of small boats and even warping was also done during military actions -
http://www.history.navy.mil/docs/war1812/const4.htm

At 8 four of the Enemy's Ships nearly within Gun Shot, some of them having six or eight boats ahead towing, with all their oars, and sweeps out to row them up with us, which they were fast doeing. It soon appeared that we must be taken, and that our Escape was impossible, four heavy Ships nearly within Gun Shot, and coming up fast, and not the least hope of a breeze, to give us a chance of getting off by out sailing them.

In this Situation finding ourselves in only twenty four fathoms water (by the suggestion of that valuable officer Lieutenant [Charles] Morris) I determined to try and warp the Ship ahead, by carrying out anchors and warp her up to them, Three or four hundred fathoms of rope was instantly got up, and two anchors got ready and sent ahead, by which means we began to gain ahead of the Enemy, They however soon saw our Boats carrying out the anchors, and adopted the same plan, under very advantageous circumstances, as all the Boats, from the Ship furthermost off were sent to Tow, and Warp up those nearest to us, by which means they again came up, So that at 9 the Ship nearest us began firing her bow guns, which we instantly returned by our Stern guns in the cabbin, and on the quarter Deck; All the Shots from the Enemy fell short, but we have reason to believe that some of ours went on board her, as we could not see them strike the Water.

Soon after 9 a Second Frigate passed under our lee, and opened her Broadside, but finding her shot fall short, discontinued her fire, but continued as did all the rest of them, to make every possible exertion to get up with us. From 9 to 12 all hands were employed in warping the Ship ahead, and in starting some of the water in the main Hold, to lighten her, which with the help of a light air, we rather gained of the Enemy, or at least hold our own. About 2 in the afternoon, all the Boats from the line of Battle Ship, and some of the Frigates, were sent to the Frigate nearest to us, to endeavour to tow her up, but a light breeze sprung up, which enabled us to hold way with her notwithstanding they had Eight or Ten Boats ahead, and all her sails furled to tow her to windward.

http://ask.metafilter.com/45303/How-did-massive-ships-embark-from-the-pier

http://books.google.com/books?id=sDpMh0gK2OUC&pg=PA336&lpg=PA336&dq=warping+ship+out+of+harbor&source=bl&ots=SzLY44nykk&sig=RcHfIQkY9p-eWVqlwMrENtPdmY8&hl=en&ei=J1qaS562JIvyNOTV1MwC&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CCQQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Now this a hair raising story ,I love this stuff , More please !

[Emma56]

So what is , kedging

[John E Hardiman]

So what is , kedging

Kedging is to carry out the light kedging anchor by boats, and by use of the cable and capstan, pull the ship up to the anchor. In some cases, the cable would be double ended and a second anchor would be carried out as the first came in. Many warships still carry kedge anchors as well as bowers. (edit: see the second link in Thorne's post).

Kedging is more effective in sail merchant ships because it can be done with fewer crew. Towing with boats is required when the water is too deep for kedging and most merchant sail of the time would be unable to tow for any significant distance against the wind due to their small crew size. the USS Constitution and the English squadron, described above, was under no such limit.

[nedL]

Also, .....I believe the practice of towing by small oared boats (long boats etc, whatever) was referred to as “Sailing by ash breeze".

[Tom Robb]

Rowing out in Lake Union (Seattle, WA) I ran across a sailor who's rudder had parted ways with his small boat and towed them back to the dock at the Center for Wooden Boats.
I can attest that it's hard work and slow progress - a bit like landing a truck tire with a fishing rod.

[paladin]

around New England and other areas where Vikings have landed, you may notice neat round holes about 6 inches or so deep in the rocks along the shore...those were anchor holes. A viking anchor is like a large ring bolt...they would row close to shore, jump out and hammer a fast hole in the rock, drop in the anchor bolt and row back out into the deeper water....then set a small anchor aft. It kept the enemy from coming aboard in a fight or at night, and if they had to get away they would row in, pick up the crew, then start rowing out....the guy on the foredeck would snap a vertical loop at the line and the eyebolt would jump out of the hole....although it would stay there in any kind of storm.

Kedging is also a way to remove yourself from potentially embarrassing situations.

[Roger Long]

So what is , kedging

A very useful skill. Early in my ownership of my boat, at the beginning of the first family cruise, I backed out of the slip into the Portland Harbor channel, put the engine in forward, and the shift lever came loose in my hands. I ran forward and dropped the anchor.

Next, I hooked the Danforth flukes over the stern of the dinghy and rowed towards the dock letting out the lines. I had crew on board but they immediately went below to read comic books and my (then) wife had to go with them to keep peace. Their utter disinterest at what was going on was one of the more disillusioning moments of my life.

I rowed out to the end of the anchor rode and dropped it. Back to the boat, pull up the first anchor, and pull up to the Danforth. Then, into the dinghy with the Delta hooked over the transom and repeat. Three cycles got me to where I could put a line on a slip across from mine and three docklines tied together running to mine. Then into the slip to put the screw back in the shift lever and on our way.

Lots of fun and much cheaper than calling Seatow. Nice show for the dock loungers. I just wish my boys had seen it.

[john welsford]

Dumb question number 42 In the days before engines ,How were large ships moved away from the docks and out into the wind/ shipping lanes

Before the roading network was fully developed the north east coast of New Zealand was served by flat bottomed sailing scows, anything from 50 to 100 ft long, and sailed by very small crews of two or three. Many of the ports that they served were at the tidal limits of estuaries and rivers, or in very shallow water. No engines, and big cumbersom craft dit not make it easy to get these often heavily loaded little ships up narrow and winding creeks, so when the wind was not favourable "Drudging" was a standard tactic.
That means dragging a weight from the bow as the tide moved the ship, dragging it just enough to slow the vessel to give steerage way relative to the water so the rudder was able to be used to keep the ship in the channel. By letting out or lifting the "drudge" the speed could be adjusted.

This was one of several methods used to bring a ship up narrow channels against the wind.


John Welsford

[Michael D. Storey]

Suggest thick volume, Lore of Ships, by a cat named Nordbok, published by Crescent, wherein he shows a square-rigged ship moving down a river, using wind, current and tide. Sometimes the wind pulls the ship ahead, sometimes aback, while the tide or current does its work. Sometimes, the hook goes down, waiting for slack, or a reverse tide.

[ahp]

The British collier brigs (the handiest of all sailing vessels) docked and undocked without engines or tugs. I would guess they did need to wait for favorable wind and tide. A brig can sail forwards, backwards, and sideways.

[Harbormaster]

The first steam boats were used as tugboats, and the increase in the size and number of large sailboats parallels the growth in the number and availability of steam boats. Not really too surprising.... Sailboats also ran aground a lot more than they do now.

[John E Hardiman]

The first steam boats were used as tugboats, and the increase in the size and number of large sailboats parallels the growth in the number and availability of steam boats. Not really too surprising....

Actually, the increase in ship size and the introduction of steam tugs follows the availability of affordable wrought iron rolled plating and shapes about 1820. Without iron plating and shapes, large ships are difficult, but steam boilers would have been impossibly expensive.

[Harbormaster]

Yes, the whole industrial age thing, steam engines made the production of "wrought iron rolled plating" a whole lot easier, but a lot of large American vessels were still built entirely of wood.

[S B]

Actually rowing them out was rare. Even in the two pictures above, that vessel easily could have been sailed in those channels. So I think they are rowing against the wind for other reasons, such as landing the first fish of the season.

Basicly, in a roadstead, you waited for the tide and wind to take you out. Ports in the days of sailing ships were selected for the ease of getting into and out of, but sailing vessels are not as clumsy as many think, you can sail them forwards backwards and sideways often in little more than thier own length. I used to get letters from my old marina when I would sail my 26 foot sloop in and out in the 40 foot channel between the finger piers, they felt that you can only maneuver a vessel while under power [rolleyes].

For small, close harbors and river ports ships were often warped in or out and warping pilings were placed along the channel. Toulon's inner harbour is a prime example of this. In shallow harbours, kedging was used if necessary, being far more effective than rowing.

They rowed the boat in, because it wasn't going there on it's own. The sails are set for show, the steamers did the same thing,had to have smoke coming from the stack, even though they had enough steam, to do the task.

[Mad Scientist]

Years ago, there was a TV commercial with about 5 seconds of a British clipper backing out of her berth, with the sails aback, of course. Logically, it should have been a tea commercial!;)
There was a brief account of Picton Castle making tight-quarters maneuvers under sail in WB a few years ago.

Tom

[S B]

around New England and other areas where Vikings have landed, you may notice neat round holes about 6 inches or so deep in the rocks along the shore...those were anchor holes. A viking anchor is like a large ring bolt...they would row close to shore, jump out and hammer a fast hole in the rock, drop in the anchor bolt and row back out into the deeper water....then set a small anchor aft. It kept the enemy from coming aboard in a fight or at night, and if they had to get away they would row in, pick up the crew, then start rowing out....the guy on the foredeck would snap a vertical loop at the line and the eyebolt would jump out of the hole....although it would stay there in any kind of storm.

Kedging is also a way to remove yourself from potentially embarrassing situations.

The shoreline here is peppered with 'em,although I doubt the Viking ones are still around. Here the holes are empty because the iron shore fast has rusted away. I have used a few,but a we looped the line through the ring, so letting go one warp and pulling the other freed you.