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View Full Version : Rules for a gunfight....



paladin
03-05-2010, 01:43 PM
1. Bring a gun...
2. Preferably bring two guns..
3. Bring all your friends with guns.....

seanz
03-05-2010, 02:01 PM
Can't we all just get along?

Phillip Allen
03-05-2010, 02:05 PM
okay, what brought that on?

pefjr
03-05-2010, 02:05 PM
shoot first, ask questions later

Phillip Allen
03-05-2010, 02:07 PM
if you think Phillip is your friend, don't bring him. After yesterday's range session it might be safer if he were the bad guy

paladin
03-05-2010, 02:14 PM
part of a poster from my jarhead son.

BrianW
03-05-2010, 02:14 PM
Wear your life jacket...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BrianW/kapoch.jpg

seanz
03-05-2010, 02:15 PM
I'd bring Phillip........he could be the reloader.
:D

Phillip Allen
03-05-2010, 02:17 PM
tell him this old sailor offered you condolences when he found out you had a son in the marines...then just grin real big. (and if you do it real good, I won't tell him his daddy was a fly boy :) )

switters
03-05-2010, 02:18 PM
part of a poster from my jarhead son.

Send this one back to him, my squid friends send it to me when I get uppity.

One day a squad of Navy Seals was making for an objective in their rubber boat. With each stroke of the paddle, they whispered that particularly unique Seal grunt – ooyah. Ooyah … ooyah … ooyah. God looked down from above and was beside himself with pride knowing that He could not have done any better than when He made HIS Seals.



Thinking to Himself, God decided to test precisely just how good His Seals were in fact. God raised His arms and “ZAP”, took away 1/2 of all the Seals brains in the dingy. There they were, seven Seals in a dingy, still making for their objective – ooyah, ooyah, ooyah.



With glee God rub his hands, then raised his arms again and “ZAP”, He took away 1/2 of the Seals remaining brains. The Seals in their rubber dingy, making for their objective now had only 1/4 of their original brains. Still, determined, they stroked on – ooyah, ooyah, ooyah.



God was nearly hysterical with joy over knowing that His creation could still function as a viable, forward deployed, tactical fighting force with very nearly all of their brains removed. Dare I, thought God? Shall I? YES! And God raised his arms and in an instant, “ZAP”! God took away all of the seals remaining brains.



And there they were, a seven man forward deployed, tactical fighting force, in a rubber dingy, with no brains, making for their objective – singing – “From the halls of Montezuma to the shores of Tripoli, We fight our countries battles…”

Phillip Allen
03-05-2010, 02:20 PM
:).

paladin
03-05-2010, 02:26 PM
He knows his daddy was a flyboy.....when 3-4 he would run around the neighborhood everytime a plane flew over pointing up and saying "daddy, Daddy"....When I had the bird down for service I would take a couple of the boys with me and sit them in the front seats.....they would sit there for hours, quiet as all get out.

Phillip Allen
03-05-2010, 02:30 PM
don't we wish we all were so easily impressed anymore...

Breakaway
03-05-2010, 02:52 PM
Take your time.

paladin
03-05-2010, 03:00 PM
Yup...kids are doing great.....got their own lives.....but a bit wound up with getting too filthy rich......I keep trying to tell everyone to slow down a bit...but they dunno wanna listen to the old man.

Vince Brennan
03-05-2010, 03:07 PM
Point the little end of the gun at the guys you want to die. It DOES help.

htom
03-05-2010, 03:41 PM
chuckle.

Captain Intrepid
03-05-2010, 04:35 PM
Number one rule of a gunfight? Bring a tank.

paladin
03-05-2010, 04:37 PM
Kinda hard to put a tank on a rubber boat....easier to just call in a Bronco or something.

Captain Intrepid
03-05-2010, 04:54 PM
Can always just build the rubber raft around the tank.

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/9620/ddtank.jpg

purri
03-05-2010, 05:10 PM
bring enough ammunition.

Bob Adams
03-05-2010, 05:58 PM
Can always just build the rubber raft around the tank.

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/9620/ddtank.jpg

It was canvas.;)

Paul Pless
03-05-2010, 06:01 PM
Point the little end of the gun at the guys you want to die. It DOES help.http://www.gunandgame.com/forums/attachments/humor-forum/18180d1233632672-smile-wait-flash-smile-wait-flash.jpg

Captain Intrepid
03-05-2010, 06:06 PM
It was canvas.;)

With rubber inner tubes, iirc. ;)

Glen Longino
03-05-2010, 06:32 PM
Stay away from gunfights where somebody else made the rules.
If you know who made the rules and invited you, shoot the bastid.

CharlieCobra
03-05-2010, 07:33 PM
First rule to a gunfight? There are no rules...

Phillip Allen
03-05-2010, 07:39 PM
if I bring a rule to a gunfight it'll be to measure someone's coffin

BrianW
03-05-2010, 07:41 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BrianW/45-45-zombie-kill-demotivational-po.jpg

paladin
03-05-2010, 08:11 PM
Mine will! and put that .45 to shame...

Phillip Allen
03-05-2010, 08:21 PM
what? that .44 special on steriods?

Peter Kalshoven
03-05-2010, 08:27 PM
USMC Rules For a Gunfight

1. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns.
Bring all of your friends who have guns. Friends with big guns are better.



2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap.
Life is expensive. Love your life and that of your friends.



3. Only hits count. A close miss is still a miss.



4. If your shooting stance is good,
you're probably not moving fast enough or using cover correctly.



5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend.
Lateral and diagonal movements are preferred. Distance and night are best.



6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight,
bring a long gun and a friend with a long gun. Refer to Rule #1.



7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics.
They will only remember who lived. Make sure your friends honor what you did for them.



8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.



9. Accuracy is relative: Most combat shooting standards will be more dependent
on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the gun.



10. Use a gun that works EVERY TIME.



11. Someday someone may kill you with your own gun,
but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.



12. Always cheat and always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.



13. Have a plan.



14. Have a backup plan, because the first one won't work.



15. Use cover and concealment as much as possible.



16. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.



17. Don't drop your guard.



18. Always do a tactical reload and threat scan for 360 degrees.



19. Watch their hands. Hands kill. In God we trust.
Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them.



20. Decide to be AGGRESSIVE enough, QUICKLY enough.
It is better to be in the news section than in the obituaries.



21. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot up you will get.



22. Be polite. Be professional, but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
It is better to be in the news section than in the obituaries.



23. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
Life is expensive. Love your life and that of your friends.



24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun,
the caliber of which does not start with at least a "4".






Navy Rules For a Gunfight



1. Go to sea.



2. Adopt an aggressive posture somewhere offshore.



3. Drink coffee.



4. Watch movies.



5. Fiddle with electronics.



6. Send in the Marines.






Army Rules For a Gunfight



1. Select a new beret to wear.



2. Sew combat patch on right shoulder.



3. Change the color of the beret you decide to wear.



4. See which war-fighters have sexy new cammies.
If the Marines have copyrighted theirs, make your own.



5. Plan what new weapons you need to deploy ten years from now.
When that time comes, make new plans.



6. Show up after the fight to provide security
and help handout food to all displaced civilians.






Navy SEAL Rules For a Gunfight



1. Look very cool in sunglasses.



2. Kill every living thing within view.



3. Return quickly to looking cool in latest beachwear.



4. Check hair in mirror.






Army Ranger Rules For a Gunfight



1. Walk in 50 miles wearing a 75-pound rucksack while starving.



2. Locate individuals requiring killing.



3. Request permission by secure-voice radio from "Higher Up" to perform killing.



4. Curse bitterly when mission is aborted.



5. Walk out 50 miles wearing a 75-pound rucksack while starving.






Air Force Rules For a Gunfight



1. Watch this all from the BOQ (Batchelor Officers' Quarters) bar
while drinking a beer or having a cocktail.



2. Adjust temperature on air conditioner.



3. See what is on HBO, Show Time, or Pay Per View.



4. Determine "what is a gunfight?"



5. Request more funding from Congress with a "killer" PowerPoint presentation.



6. Wine and dine key Congressmen, invite DoD and defense industry executives.



7. Receive funding, set up new command, and assemble assets.



8. Declare assets "strategic" and never deploy them operationally.



9. Ask the Navy to send in the Marines.

Phillip Allen
03-05-2010, 08:35 PM
never met many marines who could type that much

Paul Pless
03-05-2010, 08:36 PM
Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun,
the caliber of which does not start with at least a "4".
> :D

Paul Pless
03-05-2010, 08:38 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BrianW/45-45-zombie-kill-demotivational-po.jpg

Bdub, I assume you provided and carried your own sidearm on your recent trip to Afghanistan? What'd you take?

paladin
03-05-2010, 08:40 PM
Air Force gunfighters....
Wait for marines to holler "Help" then get their coordinates...
Set autopilot.....turn on the fan's to high....
2 minutes out arm weapons.....set lat/long on smart weapon...
as you cross the coordinates launch weapons...
Instruct autopilot to reverse course and reverse track.....turn on airconditioning.....relax and listen to music until attitude alarm pings....

Paul Pless
03-05-2010, 09:04 PM
Can always just build the rubber raft around the tank.

http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/9620/ddtank.jpg
i think i might prefer a proper snorkel

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/%D0%A2-90_%28underwater%29.jpg/800px-%D0%A2-90_%28underwater%29.jpg

CharlieCobra
03-05-2010, 09:09 PM
Seals..

Use a rubber over your flash suppressor to keep the water out....

If you're out of rubbers, remember to drain the water before pulling the trigger.

When on a tricky op (ain't they all?) don't rely on the commo, it will break.

When on a swim op, take twice as much air as you think you'll need because the op will take twice as long as scheduled.

When packing ammo, when ya think ya have enough, pack four more mags...

Keep that K-bar handy for when everything else fails..., and it will at some point.

paladin
03-05-2010, 09:31 PM
K-Bar fails.....get a Randall #1 and/or a Randall #2...it will go through body armor.

Krunch
03-05-2010, 09:36 PM
1. Bring a gun...

...preferably a centerfire rifle.

bobbys
03-05-2010, 09:41 PM
In WW2 my Dads Seabee Battalion landed on some beaches As combat assault troops and held the flanks of the 4th Marines on Saipan.

S B
03-05-2010, 09:53 PM
Take a "Newfie" with you.

Lewisboats
03-05-2010, 09:54 PM
The best laid plans never survive first contact. So you better be able to improvise, adapt and overcome.

Lewisboats
03-05-2010, 09:55 PM
...preferably a centerfire rifle.

In a caliber that starts with a ".5" Oh...and shoots lots of times with one press of the trigger. Ma Deuce...country girl that rocks your world.

Krunch
03-05-2010, 10:04 PM
In a caliber that starts with a ".5" Oh...

I'll take a thirty, thanks.

Weak back, weaker mind and all that.

PatCox
03-05-2010, 10:06 PM
People are mixing the role of guns in warfare with the role of armed citizens in a civil society.

I am going to point out from the first that I am against gun control, at least, any kind of severe restrictions, I do believe that lunatics and felons should not be allowed to own guns.

But here is the thing about guns. People, its inevitable, are going to have confrontations, get angry, and get violent, thats a part of being human, it happens, and it always will. You cannot change that.

The thing about guns is, they make the consequences of a moment of confrontation, or a moment of anger, so much more serious.

You get mad, you don't have a gun, you punch someone out, he lives, you live, OK.

You get in a confrontation, you have a gun, you use it, someone is dead.

There is a fascinating difference in the effects of crime, in the US, as compared to europe. The fact is that muggings, that kind of crime, someone confronting and assaulting and taking someone's wallet, that crime is much more common in europe than in the US.

But on the other hand, the incidence of murder, of a robbery or a mugging ending up with the victim dead, is much much lower, in europe, than in the US.

Its not because european criminals are less violent, nor is it beecause violent crime is less common than in the US, either. Its because, when people do get violent in Europe, they generally don't have weapons, firearms, whereas, US criminals generally do have firearms.

The incidence of violence and crime is the same in europe and the US, the only difference, is that the percentage of times a violent incident or a crime winds up with someone dead, is much much lower in europe.

I don't really care, because I kinda think I am entitled to believe, having lived for half a century and never having had a violent confrontation or a violent crime perpetrated against me, that its not that hard to just avoid violence. But if someone is so concerned that if they don't have a gun, they will be a helpless victim, fine, go get a gun, good for you. But you should also be aware, that the consequences, if you do get into a violent confrontation, will be more serious and irrevocable, if you bring a gun into it.

Thats all.

Guns are tools, they are dangerous, only in the hands of dangerous people. I tend to believe that if you don't have a gun, if you don't believe that your gun should be your insurance policy, you are less likely to push situations, you are less likely to make a mistake in a heated situation, than if you don't have a gun, no strike that, its not that you won't make a mistake in a heated situation, its that if you do, the consequences are far more likely to be fatal, to someone, you or the other guy.

The fact is, I do believe that morally, there is an obligation to retreat, to try to defuse situations, to try to avoid standing your ground, if you can safely retreat. I know that many of you who believe in owning guns for protection believe this, too. Many of you, many of my friends, tell me, that if you want a gun for the purpose of defending your home, you should get a pump action shotgun, because the sound of ratcheting the gun, will send a message to the wrongdoer, that he is about to get blown away, and thus will give him one last chance to retreat. That is as it should be, the gun is first used as a warning, and only if that warning is unheeded, is the gun used, I have no problem with that.

Legalizing people carrying handguns into bars, on the other hand, is just asking that every drunken bar confrontation end with someone dead, rather than with someone with a broken nose.

I have mentioned this before, four of my high school classmates, rednecks, down south, were shot in a drunken bar fight, years ago. They were fighters, these dudes, I had been in fistfights with two of them, before this incident, they were pugnacious dudes, who would get heated up over any old thing, and they were all big guys on the football team, and I guess felt that turning every confrontation into a fistfight just gave them an opportunity to show what badasses they were. And one night, in a bar, someone said something rude to a girl who was with them, and they started a fight, they punched up the dude, and then, when they left the bar, the guy was waiting in the parking lot, he walked up to them with a handgun, and killed two, and wounded the other two. The girl that the fight was over, she was a friend of mine, the ex-wife of a good friend of mine. She said the guy walked up, and before they knew what was going on, he pulled out the gun, and just pointed it at one, bang, pointed it at the next guy, bang, the next guy, bang, shot for of them in seconds.

She told me that one of the guys who was killed, shot in the head, they were all hit in the head, he flopped around on the ground for some time, like a flounder, that it was horrible. I am sure it was worse for him than it was for her. She was quite graphic about that she said that in movies people who got shot just laid down, but in real life, people flop around and make horrible noises, and its just not quite so clean and cool as in the movies.

bobbys
03-05-2010, 10:17 PM
People are mixing the role of guns in warfare with the role of armed citizens in a civil society.

I am going to point out from the first that I am against gun control, at least, any kind of severe restrictions, I do believe that lunatics and felons should not be allowed to own guns.

But here is the thing about guns. People, its inevitable, are going to have confrontations, get angry, and get violent, thats a part of being human, it happens, and it always will. You cannot change that.

The thing about guns is, they make the consequences of a moment of confrontation, or a moment of anger, so much more serious.

You get mad, you don't have a gun, you punch someone out, he lives, you live, OK.

You get in a confrontation, you have a gun, you use it, someone is dead.

There is a fascinating difference in the effects of crime, in the US, as compared to europe. The fact is that muggings, that kind of crime, someone confronting and assaulting and taking someone's wallet, that crime is much more common in europe than in the US.

But on the other hand, the incidence of murder, of a robbery or a mugging ending up with the victim dead, is much much lower, in europe, than in the US.

Its not because european criminals are less violent, nor is it beecause violent crime is less common than in the US, either. Its because, when people do get violent in Europe, they generally don't have weapons, firearms, whereas, US criminals generally do have firearms.

The incidence of violence and crime is the same in europe and the US, the only difference, is that the percentage of times a violent incident or a crime winds up with someone dead, is much much lower in europe.

I don't really care, because I kinda think I am entitled to believe, having lived for half a century and never having had a violent confrontation or a violent crime perpetrated against me, that its not that hard to just avoid violence. But if someone is so concerned that if they don't have a gun, they will be a helpless victim, fine, go get a gun, good for you. But you should also be aware, that the consequences, if you do get into a violent confrontation, will be more serious and irrevocable, if you bring a gun into it.

Thats all.

Guns are tools, they are dangerous, only in the hands of dangerous people. I tend to believe that if you don't have a gun, if you don't believe that your gun should be your insurance policy, you are less likely to push situations, you are less likely to make a mistake in a heated situation, than if you don't have a gun, no strike that, its not that you won't make a mistake in a heated situation, its that if you do, the consequences are far more likely to be fatal, to someone, you or the other guy.

The fact is, I do believe that morally, there is an obligation to retreat, to try to defuse situations, to try to avoid standing your ground, if you can safely retreat. I know that many of you who believe in owning guns for protection believe this, too. Many of you, many of my friends, tell me, that if you want a gun for the purpose of defending your home, you should get a pump action shotgun, because the sound of ratcheting the gun, will send a message to the wrongdoer, that he is about to get blown away, and thus will give him one last chance to retreat. That is as it should be, the gun is first used as a warning, and only if that warning is unheeded, is the gun used, I have no problem with that.

Legalizing people carrying handguns into bars, on the other hand, is just asking that every drunken bar confrontation end with someone dead, rather than with someone with a broken nose.

I have mentioned this before, four of my high school classmates, rednecks, down south, were shot in a drunken bar fight, years ago. They were fighters, these dudes, I had been in fistfights with two of them, before this incident, they were pugnacious dudes, who would get heated up over any old thing, and they were all big guys on the football team, and I guess felt that turning every confrontation into a fistfight just gave them an opportunity to show what badasses they were. And one night, in a bar, someone said something rude to a girl who was with them, and they started a fight, they punched up the dude, and then, when they left the bar, the guy was waiting in the parking lot, he walked up to them with a handgun, and killed two, and wounded the other two. The girl that the fight was over, she was a friend of mine, the ex-wife of a good friend of mine. She said the guy walked up, and before they knew what was going on, he pulled out the gun, and just pointed it at one, bang, pointed it at the next guy, bang, the next guy, bang, shot for of them in seconds.

She told me that one of the guys who was killed, shot in the head, they were all hit in the head, he flopped around on the ground for some time, like a flounder, that it was horrible. I am sure it was worse for him than it was for her. She was quite graphic about that she said that in movies people who got shot just laid down, but in real life, people flop around and make horrible noises, and its just not quite so clean and cool as in the movies..

Im not being rude, perhaps i do not know the whole story, The way i read it 4 badazz dudes beat the hell outta one guy?.

Im not condoning murder but 4 on one is pretty close to it to...

perldog007
03-06-2010, 01:50 AM
Having been a Special Police Officer charged with providing protective services for National Capitol public and assisted housing, I feel imminently qualified to state that the first and most important rule of gunfighting is:

Be somewhere else.

that's all you have to do. And it's the best thing you can do. AFTER you get that one down pat, just remember to have regular bowel movements. if you add these two together you get 42.........

Paul Pless
03-06-2010, 07:18 AM
Be somewhere else.spoken like a true rent-a-cop

paladin
03-06-2010, 07:34 AM
Serious question....would you rather be hit with a .45 slug from 50 feet away or 2 9mm parabellums?
I put a heavier recoil spring in my browning, so much heavier that it wouldn't throw the slide back far enough to eject the spent cartridge and reset the sear.
I then used Israeli or Canadian sub machine gun ammo, which is hotter than U.S. loaded 9mm's.....The sub ammo is considerably faster and a slightly heavier bullet weight so it will totally ruin your day.
Then load 2 rounds of U.S. ammo, and one Canadian round...and keep alternating them....what you then get when you fire the weapon is a 2 round or 3 round burst so fast that you won't realize how fast the thing fires. It's a legal way of making like the Argentine Brownings that have a selective fire mod.

BrianW
03-06-2010, 07:44 AM
I don't believe the .45ACP and the double tap are mutually exclusive.

Your 9mm Browning method sounds interesting!

Phillip Allen
03-06-2010, 07:55 AM
what's the frequency of jams, Chuck?

Paul Pless
03-06-2010, 07:59 AM
I don't believe the .45ACP and the double tap are mutually exclusive.not at all. . . the typical hipower does carry twice as much ammo though

Vince Brennan
03-06-2010, 07:59 AM
Serious question....would you rather be hit with a .45 slug from 50 feet away or 2 9mm parabellums?


Ahhhh.... Neither?

oznabrag
03-06-2010, 08:54 AM
Ahhhh.... Neither?

I like that third option, myself, Vince!

CharlieCobra
03-06-2010, 09:56 AM
K-Bar fails.....get a Randall #1 and/or a Randall #2...it will go through body armor.

If ya can find a real one. The Fairborne Sykes is probably a better blade than the three mentioned before. It took a bit to jog the memory cells though..

BrianW
03-06-2010, 10:43 AM
Some body armor is designed specifically to provide knife protection.

CharlieCobra
03-06-2010, 12:04 PM
Anything certified 1A or above will stop a blade I believe, unless they stick ya under the pads, say, in the armpit etc.. The key to dealing with body armor is to hit 'em where it ain't.

bobbys
03-06-2010, 12:04 PM
Chuck, i found a pic of you and your Moll when youse wuz working undercover!:D.

http://washingtonrebel.typepad.com/.a/6a00d835349ad569e20120a69a0a8f970c-500wi

BrianW
03-06-2010, 12:38 PM
Somebody's not going to like that pic Bobby.

Look closer at that drum magazine. :D

BrianW
03-06-2010, 12:40 PM
Anything certified 1A or above will stop a blade I believe, unless they stick ya under the pads, say, in the armpit etc.. The key to dealing with body armor is to hit 'em where it ain't.

Had some shooting training that included keeping the body facing straight forward when firing for just that reason. Kinda hard, after a lifetime of turning to shoot.

perldog007
03-06-2010, 01:11 PM
spoken like a true rent-a-cop

Spoken like a true rent-a-cop who has walked alone in places where MPDC doesn't like to go even when they are three deep in a squad car. Who is also still walking......

paladin
03-06-2010, 03:38 PM
Phillip...never had a jam....except when I was first changing out the springs until I got where I wanted....changed a few, and fired a lotta rounds to get the cyclic rate right.
The double 9mm is a square law...4 times the energy instead of twice....
The Sykes is weak near the hilt..if you jab it in the ribs it is possible to get the blade stuck and twisting may break the blade.....I have yet to see a Randall break and I have used the Bowie to hack away door hinges on a bird after we hit the ground a bit harder than intended, then pried the door off...the blade is 1/4 inch Swedish tool steel.

Phillip Allen
03-06-2010, 04:20 PM
seems to me you'd need to test each new batch of ammo before trusting your life with it

seanz
03-06-2010, 05:45 PM
Somebody's not going to like that pic Bobby.

Look closer at that drum magazine. :D

Looks 'unmodified'......what's the problem?
;)

oznabrag
03-06-2010, 05:52 PM
Looks 'unmodified'......what's the problem?
;)

Keeeeep lookin' :cool: just remember what you're looking at.;)

seanz
03-06-2010, 06:01 PM
I'm still looking.
Nothing wrong with what I see............


Oh.......I get it.......that's not a 45........it's a 38.........with some sort of percussion cap.
;)

Phillip Allen
03-06-2010, 06:08 PM
certainly not me! I'm just the piano player

seanz
03-06-2010, 06:13 PM
C'mon...fess up!


Fortunately, not I.
The first rule of gunfighting has always been a stumbling block........

paladin
03-06-2010, 06:50 PM
It ain't fun fellas...it's one thing to joke about...another thing to do.

Phillip Allen
03-06-2010, 06:54 PM
figured that out all by myself...

Phillip Allen
03-06-2010, 06:57 PM
I once heard a guy say "you couldn't have driven a needle up my ^$$ ho(# with a sledge hammer"

CharlieCobra
03-06-2010, 09:36 PM
I took a knife to a gunfight once... Didn't know it was gonna be a gunfight...

Chuck, I'm partial to a good Bowie m'self.

LongIslandBoy
03-06-2010, 09:41 PM
I once heard a guy say "you couldn't have driven a needle up my ^$$ ho(# with a sledge hammer"
A/K/A "The Pucker Factor"?:D

paladin
03-07-2010, 04:20 AM
Phillip, I would trust the Israeli or Canadian ammo before the U.S. produced stuff...and that's why I like the Browning....tighter than a .45, loose enough to take any ammo

Bobbys...not enough hair on his chest.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
03-07-2010, 04:43 AM
USMC Rules For a Gunfight

24. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun,
the caliber of which does not start with at least a "4".



Or a rifle, the caliber of which does not start with at least a "3".

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
03-07-2010, 04:46 AM
Somebody's not going to like that pic Bobby.

Look closer at that drum magazine. :D

You ain't kidding. The BATFE is gonna have a fit!

Krunch
03-07-2010, 07:07 AM
But here is the thing about guns. People, its inevitable, are going to have confrontations, get angry, and get violent, thats a part of being human, it happens, and it always will. You cannot change that.

The thing about guns is, they make the consequences of a moment of confrontation, or a moment of anger, so much more serious.

You get mad, you don't have a gun, you punch someone out, he lives, you live, OK.

You get in a confrontation, you have a gun, you use it, someone is dead.


Is that why crime in general, and shootings in particular, fell so much faster in "right to carry" states than non-"right to carry" states?

I find it interesting that folks cling to these misconceptions in the face of literally mountains of data suggesting that just the opposite is the case...

Krunch
03-07-2010, 07:11 AM
Paladin,

Don't know whether you know this, but if your B1935 "doubles" (or "triples" or whatever) for any reason, I'm pretty sure ATF considers it a full-auto and if you ain't got the right license and $200 tax stamp affixed, you can be in deep doo-doo.

paladin
03-07-2010, 07:54 AM
I did it in overseas.......once returning to the U.S. I replaced the original buffer spring.

Paul Pless
03-07-2010, 08:06 AM
Don't know whether you know this, but if your B1935 "doubles" (or "triples" or whatever) for any reason, I'm pretty sure ATF considers it a full-autodoes the batf consider a slamfire for whatever reason to be a full-auto

Bob Adams
03-07-2010, 08:59 AM
Is that why crime in general, and shootings in particular, fell so much faster in "right to carry" states than non-"right to carry" states?

I find it interesting that folks cling to these misconceptions in the face of literally mountains of data suggesting that just the opposite is the case...

Media doesn't like those facts, so they just ignore them.

Phillip Allen
03-07-2010, 09:09 AM
does the batf consider a slamfire for whatever reason to be a full-auto

I suspect that they have enough power that if you accidently pull both triggers of your double shotgun, they can consider it full auto

chasbartlett
03-07-2010, 09:10 AM
actually, a slamfire or misfires has been prosecuted by the BATF....it seems to be a selectively enforced law/system.

Phillip Allen
03-07-2010, 09:11 AM
well, duh!

chasbartlett
03-07-2010, 10:03 AM
I think the original prosecution was a person with a .22 that slam fired several rounds because of a worn sear.

Phillip Allen
03-07-2010, 10:10 AM
I think the original prosecution was a person with a .22 that slam fired several rounds because of a worn sear.

I've repaired those before...a bit scary in pistols cause they just twrill round in the unsuspecting shooter's hand

Paul Pless
03-07-2010, 10:29 AM
a bit scary in pistols cause they just twrill round in the unsuspecting shooter's handa .22???

BrianW
03-07-2010, 10:41 AM
Maybe a 'girly mans' hand.

Phillip Allen
03-07-2010, 10:43 AM
a .22???

yep...remember that the slide is also violently stopped in it's rearward travel which rachets the pistol round

Phillip Allen
03-07-2010, 10:47 AM
I measured this once with an old High Standard DuroMatic

the first shot hit square and the second shot fired at the top of the previous shot's recoil...I knew this pistol had problems so had only two rounds in it...they struck one four feet above the other from ten feet...with a death grip on the gun

bricklayer hands Paul...

I'm sure it would vary from gun to gun (models)

Paul Pless
03-07-2010, 12:01 PM
yep...remember that the slide is also violently stopped in it's rearward travel which rachets the pistol roundThe felt recoil energy of a .22 fired out of a ruger semi auto pistol is less than 2/10 of a pound. I can hold the bolt shut shut on mine with my thumb when firing it.

Bobby of Tulsa
03-07-2010, 12:07 PM
Heres one thats more better http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVBjBClBSao

BrianW
03-07-2010, 12:39 PM
The felt recoil energy of a .22 fired out of a ruger semi auto pistol is less than 2/10 of a pound. I can hold the bolt shut shut on mine with my thumb when firing it.


On purpose? :)

Next time, try to stop the slide on your 1911 just using the webbing between your thumb and index finger. ;)

Paul Pless
03-07-2010, 12:42 PM
On purpose? :)yeah on purpose, I just wanted to see. I have a freind that has one with a built in silencer and a bolt lock to prevent there being any bolt travel noise.


Next time, try to stop the slide on your 1911 just using the webbing between your thumb and index finger. ;)uhh... no thanks, big difference between a .22 and a full house .45.

paladin
03-07-2010, 12:43 PM
Phillip......I have a High Standard Trophy and Supermatic Citation...and even with target shorts I wouldn't hold my thumb on the slide.....well actually I would, the slide won't open with the target shorts, I have to change the spring and use an aluminum slide......but otherwise.......and I have scars on the web of my hand from the .45 "Commando" whopping me...

Phillip Allen
03-07-2010, 12:50 PM
my great thumb education came from a '97 Winchester...(I got pretty good with it eventually)

bobbys
03-07-2010, 01:11 PM
Apart from Chuck, and now me, I wonder how many participants in this thread have actually been in a gunfight.

C'mon...fess up!.

Aside from pretty nasty games of Pac man i have only been in the line of fire twice in my life.

Once while in a park i heard a snap and a click behind my head.

I turned around to see a PR holding a Zip gun he held to my head but it misfired.

He screamed when i turned around, He thought i was some one else.

Bean young and silly i helped him un jam it not even being upset till later, He did not mean to off me so i guess no reason to be mad about it.

Another time the neighbor in jersey did not pay his bookie, Goombahs came to teach him a lesson but he pulled a gun and all parties engaged in a wild west shootout with me standing there in the middle, Even though they were at close range only the non payer was hit in the leg although all pistols were emptied., I hid under my truck and quite enjoyed the show for a minute till bullets whizzed by.

No Police ever came, i inquired as to why i was told that i had in fact seen or heard nutting this was an internal matter betweens the eyetalians..

I toed the line as i made extra money parking cars for there card games and unloaded trucks.

Captain Intrepid
03-07-2010, 01:17 PM
Is that why crime in general, and shootings in particular, fell so much faster in "right to carry" states than non-"right to carry" states?

I find it interesting that folks cling to these misconceptions in the face of literally mountains of data suggesting that just the opposite is the case...

And in Canada where there's no right to carry at all, shootings and crime in general is even lower. In other words, there's much more at play than wether or not a few law abiding folk have guns.

paladin
03-07-2010, 01:19 PM
Phillip...a '97 Winchester is not a gun....it's an accident looking for a place to happen.

Phillip Allen
03-07-2010, 01:33 PM
Phillip...a '97 Winchester is not a gun....it's an accident looking for a place to happen.

seven rounds...throw up a (steel) coke can as high as I could and hit it seven times on the way down...the last shot pinned it to the pond I stood next to

Phillip Allen
03-07-2010, 01:36 PM
And in Canada where there's no right to carry at all, shootings and crime in general is even lower. In other words, there's much more at play than wether or not a few law abiding folk have guns.

as the temperature goes up...crime goes up...I believe that has been the subject of some studies

Captain Intrepid
03-07-2010, 01:42 PM
And of course a classic in correlation != causation...


http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/5872/piratesarecool.jpg

Phillip Allen
03-07-2010, 01:46 PM
there probably is some causation but it is indirect

no capt, we must discuss in terms of developed countries with comperable large cities and the presents/non presents of firearms

Phillip Allen
03-07-2010, 01:51 PM
I responded to a post suggesting that Canada had less crime because of their laws

I was led to compare the United States directly with Somalia

Captain Intrepid
03-07-2010, 01:59 PM
It's my feeling on the issue that the presence non/presence of firearms is a very minor thing when it comes to the whole crime issue. It's arguable which way it affects things, but I think it's one of the last things to worry about. Cultural issues, unhappy minorities and very large economic imbalances between the rich and poor are more important. But I digress, we're hijacking paladin's thread here.

(and the graph didn't have anything to do with gun rights, it was an amusing graph of two unrelated things, trying to imply causation where non exists)

paladin
03-07-2010, 02:42 PM
I don't mind thread drift.....all this is open for discussion and so far no one has been offensive....and thank you.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
03-07-2010, 08:46 PM
Phillip...a '97 Winchester is not a gun....it's an accident looking for a place to happen.

What's wrong with the '97? Do tell. I like my hammers exposed. Or is there no separate (sear) safety on them? If that is the case, plus with no hammer blocking arrangement, I could see them being more risky.

The Ithaca 37 (which I consider to be an excellent pump gun) would also slam-fire with the trigger depressed, if I recall correctly, but it has a safety.

paladin
03-07-2010, 09:11 PM
the 97 winchester would slam fire without depressing the trigger....

coelacanth2
03-07-2010, 09:21 PM
Well loved A5 and A500 Brownings are prone to going full auto upon occasion, too. That's what prompted me bringing mine over to Greg Wolf when he was still in Easton. Most alarming. Fortunately, the plug was in, only 3 shots. Knew a fellow had an old 10 gauge side by side double on him early one morning, the ducks came in on him while he was setting the decoys. He was a blocky, muscular guy and he said it blew him right through the (admittedly ) punky transom of his little rowboat. Fortunately, the pond was only about 5 feet deep. Still chilly in mid January, though:D

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
03-07-2010, 10:17 PM
Serious question....would you rather be hit with a .45 slug from 50 feet away or 2 9mm parabellums?
I put a heavier recoil spring in my browning, so much heavier that it wouldn't throw the slide back far enough to eject the spent cartridge and reset the sear.
I then used Israeli or Canadian sub machine gun ammo, which is hotter than U.S. loaded 9mm's.....The sub ammo is considerably faster and a slightly heavier bullet weight so it will totally ruin your day.
Then load 2 rounds of U.S. ammo, and one Canadian round...and keep alternating them....what you then get when you fire the weapon is a 2 round or 3 round burst so fast that you won't realize how fast the thing fires. It's a legal way of making like the Argentine Brownings that have a selective fire mod.

Interesting. *long thinking pause* Hmm. I'm still not grasping this. I would think that the slide would still have to go back far enough to eject the empty cartridge, but not far enough to reset the disconnector, if that's what you meant.

Hey while we are on the subject, one thing I don't like about the Browning 1935 Hi-Power design is the magazine safety, both because you can't fire during a tactical reload, and also because it worsens the trigger pull; the safety mechanism bears on the front of the magazine. With a parkerized finish, it can make the trigger feel pretty scratchy. Even when the front of the magazine surface is polished, it's a factor for us folks picky about trigger feel. I also know that the mechanism is easily removed to eliminate this problem. (The frame mounted safety still remains and functions effectively.) Did you ever do this mod to yours or was it never a problem to you?

Regarding the '97 Winchester, aha, I didn't know that, thanks. I had always pined for one, perhaps now not so much.

Bob (oh, THAT Bob)
03-07-2010, 10:30 PM
Regarding 9mm versus .45, they both are good cartridges with pluses and minuses, the 9 shoots flatter and has more energy loaded fast, the .45 has greater immediate impulse (mv, versus (1/2)mv^^2) and thus knockdown power. Some say that with a .45, you are shooting "pre-expanded bullets"

However, the strongest case for the .45 was when "high-capacity" (meaning over 10 round) magazines were banned as a provision of the Federal Assault Weapon Ban of 1994, which expired in 2004. If you can only have 10, you might as well make them big. In retrospect, the AWB was the best thing to happen to the .45, there was a great resurgence with it after decades of stagnation as manufacturers pushed high-capacity nines.

Since my late teens I had always thought that 10mm would be a good compromise. Then the Bren 10 came out, but that was loaded pretty hot. Not long thereafter, the feds did some serious study and concluded that a moderately loaded 10mm, or .40 caliber, was a very good round (see Wiki link below as to why). S&W listened, and the rest is history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

ishmael
03-07-2010, 11:20 PM
I've been reluctant to post to this. The quintesential American gun fight was the OK Corral. I'm sure there were others, but this one caught the American imagination.

It's difficult to tease out the myth from what happened, but wasn't it old feuds rather than law enforcement? The Earps, brave young men, had a political agenda, to hold onto power in Tombstone. The Clantons were cattle rustlers, but it's almost like who wasn't at that time?

Holliday is probably the most interesting character on either side. A sufferer of consumption, befriended by the Earps, he could be counted on to stand by his friends to the final measure because he had nothing to lose. As the later film version has him saying, "I'm your Huckleberry."

Oh, that edge. That's the attraction, to be on the edge. We live such quiescence, and to be on the edge is the attraction.

bobbys
03-07-2010, 11:36 PM
Phillip...a '97 Winchester is not a gun....it's an accident looking for a place to happen..

I have a 97.

The neighbor came over and asked if i wanted his Dads guns.

Sure i sez took the 97 and had the bore done for steel shot.

Shot it once and saw how the hammer slide came back and just missed tearing my fingers off.

Im afraid of it big time.

Just use the Ithaca 37.

paladin
03-07-2010, 11:54 PM
Bob....your thinking is in the right direction...the disconnector just doesn't quite make it.....
Tired so now it's nap time...

John E Hardiman
03-08-2010, 01:14 AM
I've been reluctant to post to this. The quintesential American gun fight was the OK Corral. I'm sure there were others, but this one caught the American imagination.

It's difficult to tease out the myth from what happened, but wasn't it old feuds rather than law enforcement? The Earps, brave young men, had a political agenda, to hold onto power in Tombstone. The Clantons were cattle rustlers, but it's almost like who wasn't at that time?

Holliday is probably the most interesting character on either side. A sufferer of consumption, befriended by the Earps, he could be counted on to stand by his friends to the final measure because he had nothing to lose. As the later film version has him saying, "I'm your Huckleberry."

Oh, that edge. That's the attraction, to be on the edge. We live such quiescence, and to be on the edge is the attraction.

Sawed off > 6-shot every time...no time lost aiming..(see El Dorado with James Caan )

But to get back to the orignal post....

"A miss is still a miss...."

I was taught (buy a US Navy Marksman) never to point a gun unless you intend to shoot...and if you shoot, make sure you hit. A gun is a tool, no more, no less. You should know how to use the tools you take up, otherwise, pass them by....Been in one gun fight...never want to be in another...but I will teach my sons how dumb a gun is...and how to use it intellegently...

ishmael
03-08-2010, 02:04 AM
I was taught the same thing, John. Don't point a weapon unless you intend to shoot.

Hey, Bobby, give me a call, but given the time, not before around noon.

I turn my phone off many days, but I'll leave it on.

Paul Pless
03-08-2010, 05:24 AM
Sawed off > 6-shot every time...no time lost aiming..(see El Dorado with James Caan )

But to get back to the orignal post....

"A miss is still a miss...."

I was taught (buy a US Navy Marksman) never to point a gun unless you intend to shoot...and if you shoot, make sure you hit. A gun is a tool, no more, no less. You should know how to use the tools you take up, otherwise, pass them by....Been in one gun fight...never want to be in another...but I will teach my sons how dumb a gun is...and how to use it intellegently...Long time no see Mr Hardiman.

Phillip Allen
03-08-2010, 08:23 AM
well, I'm suprised at how many here actually have been in gunfights...

the only one I was ever in was when a good friend of mine and I tried to buy the same rifle...he won :)

(Chuck, I still liked my old '97...never slam fired on me unless I wanted it to)

paladin
03-08-2010, 08:24 AM
Weapon stays put...when it comes out, it goes off....otherwise the other dude wins.

Phillip Allen
03-08-2010, 08:26 AM
Weapon stays put...when it comes out, it goes off....otherwise the other dude wins.

on a more serious note...I agree. To bring a gun out and just wave it around is GD dangerous I think!