the agony column...

[Bernadette]

dear boat forum,

ive ordered my new motor and paid the deposit. i see in my invoice that i am paying for 2.5lt of oil and 5.4 lt of coolant. since when does the customer have to pay for these in a new motor? would have figured they would be in the price.

signed,
perplexed (and a tad miffed)!

[wizbang 13]

Later,you may have to pay to throw it away too !!

[cookie]

In Europe, costs of (future) disposal are added to the invoice as well.....

[wizbang 13]

fact is stranger than fiction

[Bernadette]

well i never ever figured that...but highly palusible given the way of thinking these days!

[maxwaterline]

I suspect the usual Australian customer relationship improvement process.

I dont know how much you paid for this engine, but to pay extra for oil and coolant!!!

Reminds of when a salesman I knew sold a beechcraft baron, about $250k in mid seventies, to a good customer who had previously bought a beechcraft bonanza and was upgrading. Salesman gets a model made of his aircraft, about $250, and presents it to the customer. Customer was very pleased and then the salesman hands him the bill for the model!!!!

I despair sometimes at the service in this country. Why don't they charge a slightly higher price and include essential things like oil/coolant. Only reason would be if engine was being freighted between dealer and you. Have you considered a post installation check by a Yanmar agent so that warranty cannot be disputed later on?

Cheers Adrian

[mmd]

Hmmmm... I am about to place an order for six diesel engines totalling about 5000 hp and worth a bit over $1.13 million. I guess I should see if they come with oil & coolant before I send the fax, eh?

Sorry to hear of your frustration, Bernadette. It's too late now, but you could have negotiated that bit of kit with the salesman who sold the engine to you. Stuff like that is the "pot sweetener" in many of these sort of deals.

[willmarsh3]

Mine came without the oil and coolant. It was built and run and then these were drained off for shipment. I had to purchase these on my own.

[Lew Barrett]

Here motors are delivered without coolant and lubricants; shipped dry. The installer puts them in, and I suppose the client pays for them. Seems justifiable to me depending on the profits made by the reseller. I suppose they could always charge you the extra cost and bury it in the invoice and perhaps that would feel better. But one way or another, somebody has to pay for it. I guess it's less of a shock if that is made clear up front.

In the case of larger motors, we are talking about tens of gallons of oil, so there is associated cost. Buying marine stuff is different than buying a car, but there's always a charge with the cars too. You know: "Delivery and prep?" Vehicles and motors are almost always shipped "dry."

[john welsford]

That happened to me a while back, I was about halfway to the door when the salesman caught up with me and offered to credit the invoice for "consumables". Yes I'd paid a deposit, but the invoice did not say that the motor was not ready to run. An outboard motor by definition is ready for use unless stated otherwise, at least where I live.
I got a cap and spare container of motor oil as well.
It pays to bitch about it, as loudly as possible, to anyone in the place who you can get in front of. If you make enough of a pest of yourself you might get the goodies given to you just to get rid of you.

John Welsford


dear boat forum,

ive ordered my new motor and paid the deposit. i see in my invoice that i am paying for 2.5lt of oil and 5.4 lt of coolant. since when does the customer have to pay for these in a new motor? would have figured they would be in the price.

signed,
perplexed (and a tad miffed)!

[Larks]

It does seem to be the way some of these companies are doing business of recent and if you don't know to ask when getting the quotes it's a shock when they do it. Any quotes on bigger engines that I'd done when I was at Azzura and Hayman were to be quoted as landed on site and installed ready to run plus sea trials. I hadn't then thought to carry that over to my own engine purchases.

So when I was chasing quotes for my outboard only one of the suppliers said that the price included pre delivery set up. I asked what he meant as it's just an outboard and he explained that the engines were delivered to them dry, no oil (as you'd expect I guess), as well as no grease on the mounting brackets and so on and they essentially did a service and run to check everything pre delivery, about an hours work. Going back to other suppliers to check their quotes most were also inclusive but one said that, no, oil and pre delivery set up labour would be added to the invoice, their original quote was the engine supplied to them plus their mark up. Once explained it made sense but otherwise it would have been unexpected.

[SunshineBridge]

Whatever the charges and the process of buying there should never be surprises between commitment to buy and receiving the invoice. Anything else is either poor salesmanship or sharp practice. I would explain this to the sales manager and see what he says.

It's very clear simple logic. "Why did you not tell me about these additional charges before I commited to purchase?" Clearly they were either negligent or withholding information from you as there can be no assumptions made on your knowledge of typical industry practice of what is included or excluded in the pricing. Suggest that they improve their pricing technique for future purchasers to avoid this bad feeling after the sale.

They want you leaving the store a happy customer, anything else is unsatisfactory.

Good luck.

[Bernadette]

yes i agree with everything. the costs involved are not at all expensive. i was just simply suprised that i would be charged at all for them.

its a bit like my motorbike purchase of just over a year ago...brand new...the first service is NOT included in the price! i only found out when booking the bike in recently.

sometimes i feel like a pest asking heaps of questions of suppliers, but now im starting to get savvy...by asking about every little thing that comes to mind. and for the important stuff, i get it written down in an email or an invoice.

with my new motor for example, the warranty wont be starting until the boat is launched. the supplier has agreed verbally but of course, i will want that in writing despite that sort of thing being the norm.

[mmd]

A caution about the warranty not kicking in until the boat is launched - read the fine print. There is usually a time limit on this; likely two years. You can't buy an engine and slide it under the workbench in the back of the shop and expect the warranty to be valid if it takes (as some have) a couple of decades to build the boat. Also, there may be terms of storage and a provision for an inspection of the engine by a dealer rep prior to launch. The latter is a good idea, even if the dealer doesn't insist on it, because it removes the bickering over whether the warranty item you want to be repaired was damage caused by the builder during construction. Basically, "you come start it when we launch the boat"...

[floatingkiwi]

A caution about the warranty not kicking in until the boat is launched - read the fine print. There is usually a time limit on this; likely two years. You can't buy an engine and slide it under the workbench in the back of the shop and expect the warranty to be valid if it takes (as some have) a couple of decades to build the boat. Also, there may be terms of storage and a provision for an inspection of the engine by a dealer rep prior to launch. The latter is a good idea, even if the dealer doesn't insist on it, because it removes the bickering over whether the warranty item you want to be repaired was damage caused by the builder during construction. Basically, "you come start it when we launch the boat"...
But first, before starting the engine, ensure the correct amount of fluids have been placed in their appropriate places.

[mmd]

If the manufacturer's rep is the first to start the engine, then it is his/her responsibility to ensure that the engine is ready to start, removing that risk from the builder.

[Roger Long]

I see you are talking liters. You might be in a country where the engine and fluids are taxed differently. Value is added to the manufactured engine parts but not the liquids. Could be they are actually saving you money separating them out on the invoice since you aren't paying VAT on the oil and coolant.

[Canoeyawl]

It would be interesting to note the type of oil that you were “sold”.
Oil for new engines (break-in oil) has additional additives to help prevent excessive wear in the valve train (specifically, camshaft and lifters).
Ordinary motor oils do not have as much zinc, moly, or corrosion inhibitors as initial break-in oil.
(These compounds have slowly been eliminated to protect calalytic convertors from premature failure. Here in the US the car manufacturers must provide a five year warranty on convertors).

[Saltiguy]

Have you seen the commercials on TV with the salesman flim-flamming the children.
"Would you like a pony?"
" Would you like to ride this bike?"
and my favorite - "egg management charge"

[Bernadette]

thanks guys for your input. i will admit to being an 'almost' complete novice whenit comes to mechanical stuff for the boat. but if i tread cautiously and slowly, i think i will learn heaps along the way without making too many mistakes!...i hope!

[Tom Robb]

Lew, if vehicles (cars?) are shipped "dry," how do they drive them onto the car carrier?
On another note, the car sales business is rife with flim-flam, BS, and outright lies. It's little wonder buying car is such a pain in the ass. The airlines seem to be taking a page from their play book these days. I try to fly only if there's no alternative.

[Canoeyawl]

I think Lew was refering to engines or powerplants, not vehicles.
(motor oil and coolant, etc are considered hazardous materials and require hazmat manifests and licensed hazmat drivers etc. - it is standard procedure to ship them dry. I think car carriers are a special circumstance)

[Lew Barrett]

Tom,

Jake handled it for me, but in respect to buying a new car (with or without the lube!) there is always a prep and F&D charge, usually wrapped up into a single line item. Crate engines are shipped dry, just as marine Diesels and gas engines (and transmissions) are.
Regardless if they perform them or not, car dealers (and the associated window stickers) ALWAYS charge for set-up, and for that matter, so do motorcycle dealers. In the case of motorcycles, they are always shipped crated and dry to the original invoiced dealer, and setup can actually be quite extensive depending on make and model.

[Breakaway]

I managed a boatyard for about ten years. We quoted engine price "plus prep." People complained about the mysterious prep charge. Later, we got computerized and so every single item showed up on the bill: Bolt, .99 cents, washers 3@ .40 each. 8 qts oil @$10 each, fit and adjust cables, 1 hour @ $80.00, etc. Then we started hearing, "how dare you charge me for washers and bolts." Like another poster said, you pay for it either way.

[Bill Huson]

My Lovely Bride selected her fishing/cruising frozen snot boat and of course I purchased it, an simple mega-buck check write which earned me an enormous amount of kitchen pass points. The boat was delivered with a full tank of fuel. A necessary thing to check the "fuel management" system ??? The fuel cost was included in the final tally. A mere micro-speck of cash compared to the total cost. The slight problem I saw was I'm towing this boat back to home port with a Dodge Dakota and I rough guessed the additional fuel weight at 900+ lbs. EEK! A no-call, the Dodge hauled that sucker down the road easy-breezy.

Back when I was the sales manager at a marina, we had a list of add-ons. I had always liked "bottom line" buying, and that's the way I quoted prices when selling. The no surprise rule - this is the tab for your boat, wet and ready to turn the key and go . . .

[Larks]

Bern, how does this compare to what you've payed for your engine? It seems a pretty good price:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Brand-New-Yanmar-3YM30-Marine-Diesel-Engine-30-HP_W0QQitemZ150423757211QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Boat _Parts_Accessories?hash=item2305f4619b