artic tern, ness yawl and "rowan"

[lvergara]

Yes, this is another question about Oughtred's double enders.

I am wondering if it is realistic to have 4 adults sailing comfortably on an Artic tern? Judging from the pictures I have seen, the real maximum seems to be just two... specially with the gunther rig... although the specifications mention up to 4, but that may be just for rowing and under specific calm conditions...
http://www.pbase.com/kathymansfield/oughtred&page=4
http://www.pbase.com/kathymansfield/image/97779192

What about the Ness Yawl? obviously seems to be significantly more spacious, beautiful boat but the artic tern with more planks and the gunther rig is just too pretty....

and James Macmullen's "Rowan"? I understand its an stretched arctic tern, I remember he posted about the modifications he did and offered help with the details, but I cannot find that post again, may be it was in another blog.....


http://www.pbase.com/kathymansfield/image/97779192

[mcdenny]

I'm building an AT yawl - the cockpit between Stations 2 and 6 is 9 feet long - I think that will be plenty of space for (4) adults - maybe a little cosy if they are all on the same side but that is pretty unlikely. Plenty roomy for (3) on one side. The deck shown for the sloop rigged variant cuts the cockpit length by about a foot. ( Another good reason to build the yawl or even the lug sloop - gets the mast out of the way).

Ness Yawl cockpit will be about 6" longer in either versipn. IO has plans for a (7) strake Ness Yawl if it's the strake count of the AT that attracts you to it vs. the NY.

Here's the thread about "ROwan" http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=110244

[James McMullen]

Rowan's had as many as six or seven aboard at a time under sail during the Great Port Townsend Water Taxi Experiment--I don't remember exactly, you'll have to ask Yeadon, as he was less over-stimulated than I was, and probably remembers better who all was there.

That was a little excessive, but four aboard works just fine and is a comfortable and regular load. You can load these boats right up--the yawl rigged version anyways.

http://images2c.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp53668%3Enu%3D3284%3E98%3A%3E898%3EWS NRCG%3D33%3B256696%3B32%3Cnu0mrj

[lvergara]

Great!

Thank you, exactly the information I was looking for... I did not know about the 7 plank Ness Yawl.... Rowan is a pretty boat... any body else has copied it?

Leoncio

[James McMullen]

Ivergara, I just posted more pics on that other thread (http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=110244) that show how much room is inside even better than the one I posted here. . .

[Canoez]

Rowan's had as many as six or seven aboard at a time under sail during the Great Port Townsend Water Taxi Experiment--I don't remember exactly, you'll have to ask Yeadon, as he was less over-stimulated than I was, and probably remembers better who all was there.

That was a little excessive, but four aboard works just fine and is a comfortable and regular load. You can load these boats right up--the yawl rigged version anyways.

http://images2c.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp53668%3Enu%3D3284%3E98%3A%3E898%3EWS NRCG%3D33%3B256696%3B32%3Cnu0mrj

James, I forget - is Dragonfly an Arctic Tern? (DOH! - noted it's a Ness Yawl on your other thread...)

[StevenBauer]

Iver, if you need more capacity Iain's Caledonia Yawl has got it. She's a little more work to row but she ghosts along quite well in very light air. I asked one builder if he had really taken 8 people out for a sail in his and he replied, "On July 4th we had 12 people and a keg." :D I don't think they were sailing, though.


Steven

[Yeadon]

Rowan's had as many as six or seven aboard at a time under sail during the Great Port Townsend Water Taxi Experiment--I don't remember exactly, you'll have to ask Yeadon, as he was less over-stimulated than I was, and probably remembers better who all was there.

That was a little excessive, but four aboard works just fine and is a comfortable and regular load. You can load these boats right up--the yawl rigged version anyways.



At the PT Festival ... one evening after the pub closed, Admiral McMullen was in no condition to row but for reasons I don't understand, I was, so we loaded up myself, the admiral, Andy, and four (?) others into Rowan and I began to row slowly out into the bay. People sat all over the boat, on the fore and aft decks, on floors, on the side benches, but we did a pretty good job of balancing the boat. It took about 10 minutes to row out to Zulu, where most of us piled off. I was actually able to scull the big boat sideways with all those people in it (while the Admiral laughed maniacally at the stars, which was a little unsettling).

After we got off, Rowan disappeared into the night. It is my understanding they never quite made it into their bunks that night, and instead wandered the harbor until sunup, when I rolled over on deck and saw Rowan pull up next to Zulu. I got on, went into the festival and found breakfast.

That is my recollection.

[lvergara]

what size of sails were used in Rowan? I think arctic tern sails are a bit smaller than Ness Yawl sails, did you also scaled up the sails as you increased the leght of J2?

[James McMullen]

Yes, I used the larger sail from the single sail rig as my fores'l, and I used the mizzen dimensions from the Ness Yawl.

[neilm]

Iain already has a stretched Arctic Tern. It's called a Sooty Tern. It's his latest design and is not in the catalog yet. You get the plans for the Arctic Tern plus some extra sheets for the Sooty Tern. I'm building one.

Neil

[James McMullen]

neilm, I'd be very curious to see the Sooty Tern plans and see what if anything is different from how I did it on Rowan.

You know, I'll probably just have to order a set for myself--donating money to Iain's welfare is high on my list of worthy causes!

[lvergara]

....how do you buy plans for the sooty tern? earlier today I e-mailed classic marine asking for a 7 plank Ness Yawl or a stretched Arctic Tern, usually they respond very quickly, I am eager to know what they say....

[James McMullen]

I think you need to write Iain Oughtred directly.

Iain Oughtred
Struan Cottage
Bearnisdale, Isle of Skye
IV51 9NS
Scotland

[lvergara]

This afternoon I got an answer from Classic Marine, they contacted Mr Oughtred. They confirmed that the Sooty Tern is available to purchase through them, as pointed out in an earlier posting by Neilm, you get the Arctic Tern plans plus additional materials for about $25 extra.
There is no 7 plank Ness Yawl, but the 6 plank Sooty Tern is the closest thing... sort of like the official "Rowan"...

Great!

[mcdenny]

"There is no 7 plank Ness Yawl, but..."

Interesting, the design evolution diagram on p146 of Nic Compton's 2009 book about IO shows a "Ness Yawl II (7 strake)".

[lvergara]

... I was just relying what I was told... may be there is something coming up?

[lvergara]

Today I found the website by Giacomo De Stefano's group, I had not seen it before. This is the same person that did the travel by the River PO with a Ness Yawl and was featured in Watercraft a few months ago... as the center of their current project they are building a new six plank Ness Yawl and show a series of videos, the last one shows the turning of the finished hull. Pretty boat

http://www.manontheriver.com/

[James McMullen]

There's a 7-plank Caledonia Yawl. . . .I suspect a simple error here. Six strakes, seven strakes. . . .whatever. More than four, anyways. These boats are all of a family, no matter how many strakes you line them off with. The ancestral yole had six, though.

[perldog007]

In thinking about boats like this ( oar and sail in general as well) I wonder where the general consensus lies in waterline to rowing speed concerning the single handed boat. In other words, for single handed rowing in a double ender, dory, or batteau - how long does the boat get in general before we don't gain anything from the longer hull? assuming one rower of course

[htom]

Longer and thinner for the same weight is expected to be faster. Normally, though, a boat gets heavier if it is longer -- and even if it is thinner. Skin friction resistance, wave making resistance, and eddy creation resistance; finding even a merged double minimum is tricky. Somewhere near 27' for modern boats? If you could find something really light and really stiff , some way to join carbon fiber without the weight of glue ....

[James McMullen]

Kayaks, canoes and rowboats, both historical and modern, have all converged on a waterline of roughly 15-16 feet as the optimum max length for a single-human powered. general purpose boat. This seems to be an empirical solution that has evolved through lots of independant testing. Both shorter and longer boats than this can and have been successful, but have their own compromises. Long skinny boats for racing may be less comfortable in a sea. Shorter, more manoverable boats might actually be easy enough--or even easier cause of less wetted surface--to move at moderate speeds, but won't have the top end speed.

I think Rowan is somewhat bigger than is optimum for solo rowing, but I chose this in order to make her a better load carrier and sailer.

[perldog007]

Kayaks, canoes and rowboats, both historical and modern, have all converged on a waterline of roughly 15-16 feet as the optimum max length for a single-human powered. general purpose boat. This seems to be an empirical solution that has evolved through lots of independant testing. Both shorter and longer boats than this can and have been successful, but have their own compromises. Long skinny boats for racing may be less comfortable in a sea. Shorter, more manoverable boats might actually be easy enough--or even easier cause of less wetted surface--to move at moderate speeds, but won't have the top end speed.

I think Rowan is somewhat bigger than is optimum for solo rowing, but I chose this in order to make her a better load carrier and sailer.

this brings up another question regarding hull shape. The centennial used for the Atlantic crossing in 1876 was I think a banks style dory. Does a more rounded hull make a boat of this size (+-20') more seaworthy? faster under oar or sails?

what I have read is that the shape of the banks dory made it easier for them to nest on board schooners and easy to build. The cape ann dories were 'fast sailors' but then we have the beachcomber alpha which apparently had better sailing qualities. Yet Johnson chose the banks style dory for his crossing.

I am confused about the merits of the single chine banks dory vis a vis the rounded hull shapes of the yoles and the round bottomed dories.

i gather that you prefer the rounded hull shape, and have read in your posts about the merits of a rounded hull when crossing an eddy line ( I think) and was wondering if you could expound on that a bit.

for a general purpose bay and coastal oar and sail boat what benefits would a rounded bottom give me over a banks style dory?

[Hwyl]

The minimum wetted surface for a given volume would be a hemisphere, therefore the rounder the bottom the less wetted surface, the less friction. The most initial stability would be a cube, the most waterline length would be a needle. Interpolate as you wish and you have boat design.

[Paul Pless]

Interpolate as you wish and you have boat design.you make it so much simpler than does mmd ;)

[James McMullen]

"Does a more rounded hull make a boat of this size (+-20') more seaworthy? faster under oar or sails? "

Yes, yes and yes, I've come to believe.


Yet Johnson chose the banks style dory for his crossing.

Did he? I'd be interested to see the lines and profile of this boat. Could it be that's just what he was used to--or maybe that's what he could afford?

One thing to consider is that simpler shapes--including wide planks and hard chines-- make boats easier to build and therefore cheaper. Banks Dories were quickly and cheaply made and semi-disposable. As dories got fancier and fancier--especially for the racing crowd like the Alpha and the X-Dory, they got rounder and rounder sides and more knuckles and more strakes until the flat-bottomed dory-style construction became pretty vestigial. A good Swampscott rowing dory is pretty much a round-bottomed boat. By the time you get to a serious, dory derived sailboat like the Alden Indian or this Crocker Compass, all that's left of the primal dory essence is the typical stem profile and the sawn frames, along with a wide-ish plank keel. Their sections are about as round as it gets.

http://www.sailing-new-england.com/images/crocker_compass.jpg

[perldog007]

I am curious about Johsnon's choice. I will have to check again, but I am under the impression that centennial was a custom built 16' cape ann ( 20' LOA) with some watertight compartments built in.

Reading about the swampscotts and such I am left wondering if Johnson didn't know anybody who could make him a round bottomed boat or perhaps as you suggested maybe could not afford one.

[James McMullen]

Maybe he just liked Cape Ann dories, though. They're not bad boats, obviously.
But from my admittedly subjective viewpoint, they're really not as pleasant as a good round-bottom boat.

I've built sharpies and flatties and dories and dory-skiffs and vee-bottoms and punts and regular old flat-bottomed skiffs. No one can say I haven't given hard chines a chance. I'll never again build another hard-chined rowboat or sailboat for myself, though. Hard chines are only at their best on planing powerboats and surf kayaks. On all other boats they're a compromise, not a feature.

[PeterSibley]

Or maybe if you need to haul pots over the side and need extra stability , that you are willing to pay for ....ah yes , that's a compromise isn't it ?

[James McMullen]

It would indeed be sheerest folly to haul pots in over the side of a round-bottomed boat. After all, you might find yourself having to deal with nasty creatures like this aboard, if you're not careful. :eek:


Technical name: Cancer productus
Common name: Pacific Red Rock Crab (also known as: Dinner!)
http://inlinethumb42.webshots.com/43817/2861132100088484686S600x600Q85.jpg (http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/2861132100088484686tMzAbO)

[Paul Pless]

Or maybe if you need to haul pots over the side and need extra stability , that you are willing to pay for ....ah yes , that's a compromise isn't it ?intersting that one of the most noteworthy pot hauling boats of all time is the peapod

[perldog007]

If I am not mistaken, a young Dynamite Payson hauled a lobster pot or two over the gunwale of a peapod before going to outboard skiffs for that work.

[Breakaway]

Well, if he was lobstering for a paying enterprise, as opposed for personal consumption/fun, the outboard skiff would allow him to work more pots further afield and faster.

[perldog007]

Well, if he was lobstering for a paying enterprise, as opposed for personal consumption/fun, the outboard skiff would allow him to work more pots further afield and faster.

No doubt, just trying to relate that round sided sail and oar boats have been used commercially by folks who still walk among us even in the civilized west.

I have a friend here who uses an plywood and mahogony 13' semi dory outboard skiff reportedly built many years ago by a C.G. Chief to tend crab pots with. That is something I would like to try with a nice sailing dory or double ender before I get composted.

The Seattle crew seems to do okay with such boats. Might even work here on the real coast... ;)

[Breakaway]

Sounds like a plan to me. I run a few pots that I tend with my powerboat, but I too, am looking forward to incorporating a string on a rowing/sailing itinerary.

[PeterSibley]

intersting that one of the most noteworthy pot hauling boats of all time is the peapod

I think it is an excellent illustration of the way the compromise that is always involved in boat design has been skewed by the introduction of engines .A boat that sails or rows well is no longer necessary for commercial users . Fuel is so cheap boats have become "work platforms" with very limited ability to move without increasingly large engines . Just look at the size of outboards you see on the average recreational fishing boat let alone the commercial guys ! :eek::eek:

[kenjamin]

I think it is an excellent illustration of the way the compromise that is always involved in boat design has been skewed by the introduction of engines .A boat that sails or rows well is no longer necessary for commercial users . Fuel is so cheap boats have become "work platforms" with very limited ability to move without increasingly large engines . Just look at the size of outboards you see on the average recreational fishing boat let alone the commercial guys ! :eek::eek:

I would like to be able to say that my low-power fishing set up with my boat, Xena, is the result of my deep concern for the future of our planet or is a safety solution for a boat that can be rowed, sailed, paddled or motored to bring us home but the awful truth of the matter is... we're just cheap old fishermen! :D

http://bodaciousboats.com/images/Birdrack.jpg

[Thorne]

Whoa - some serious thread drift here!

As for Johnson and Centennial, both his boat and Blackburn's looks like decked Swampscott designs to me, although Centennial may be a bit more Banks-like on the sides.

Centennial -
http://www.microcruising.com/Graphics/CNTNNIAL1r.jpg

Blackburn -
http://www.sandybay.org/images/oldphotos/saildory.jpg

Previous thread -
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93044

[perldog007]

Whoa - some serious thread drift here!

As for Johnson and Centennial, both his boat and Blackburn's looks like decked Swampscott designs to me, although Centennial may be a bit more Banks-like on the sides.

Centennial -
http://www.microcruising.com/Graphics/CNTNNIAL1r.jpg

Blackburn -
http://www.sandybay.org/images/oldphotos/saildory.jpg

Previous thread -
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93044

Thanks for posting that. I had googled a couple of times and never bothered to track down that image when reading about the Centennial. From what I understand, the banks style has very weak initial stability and sails on it's ear most of the time, becoming somewhat stable heeled.

It's easy for me to see how folks might prefer the more gentle action of a more rounded hull.

Not something I am terribly tuned to yet, most of my small boat time nowadays is spent on very sheltered flat water under ideal conditions. Last time I was on the big water the boat was larger than many towns.

[Ben Fuller]

Thanks for posting that. I had googled a couple of times and never bothered to track down that image when reading about the Centennial. From what I understand, the banks style has very weak initial stability and sails on it's ear most of the time, becoming somewhat stable heeled.

It's easy for me to see how folks might prefer the more gentle action of a more rounded hull.

Not something I am terribly tuned to yet, most of my small boat time nowadays is spent on very sheltered flat water under ideal conditions. Last time I was on the big water the boat was larger than many towns.

Banks dories unless the bottom gets really wide are not great sail boats as the initial stability is not great. I have seen a banks dory eject a couple of rowers when they were racing and tried to do a 180 too tightly.

The various dory styles used for the transatlantic crossings were custom for the job. Centennial was a relatively wide bottom straight sided dory and of course she was decked and ballasted. Bottom width of 38" made her wider on the bottom than the largest fishing dories of the time. She did survive a 360. I have spent time in Sam and Susan Manning's version of this and it is rock solid. It was a 20 footer and Blackburn's a 25 footer.

Harpo and Samuelson were the first to row across and they used a 18 foot version of a Jersey skiff, pretty much built like a round sided dory except for a different wider stern. They too survived a 360.

As far as pot hauling goes, either a dory or peapod works fine. What you need to do is be able to heel the boat controllably to the gunwhales and then use the leverage of the boat coming up right to help you handle the weight. Working double enders ( which is what the fishermen called them) have quite a flat floor and hard turn of the bilge.

[perldog007]

Banks dories unless the bottom gets really wide are not great sail boats as the initial stability is not great. I have seen a banks dory eject a couple of rowers when they were racing and tried to do a 180 too tightly.

The various dory styles used for the transatlantic crossings were custom for the job. Centennial was a relatively wide bottom straight sided dory and of course she was decked and ballasted. Bottom width of 38" made her wider on the bottom than the largest fishing dories of the time. She did survive a 360. I have spent time in Sam and Susan Manning's version of this and it is rock solid. It was a 20 footer and Blackburn's a 25 footer.

Harpo and Samuelson were the first to row across and they used a 18 foot version of a Jersey skiff, pretty much built like a round sided dory except for a different wider stern. They too survived a 360.

As far as pot hauling goes, either a dory or peapod works fine. What you need to do is be able to heel the boat controllably to the gunwhales and then use the leverage of the boat coming up right to help you handle the weight. Working double enders ( which is what the fishermen called them) have quite a flat floor and hard turn of the bilge.

sounds like a working double ender would be ideal for recreational crabbing if the party in question did not have so far to travel as to make rowing and sailing less than bearable. The Dragonfly crew looks happy enough in their pursuit.
I have some googling to do now, would like to look at lines and t/o for those two dories of note, possibly explore a 1/8 scale laydown or maybe even a model.

[Venchka]

Geeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzeeeeeeeeeeeee,

I turn my back for a few years and nothing much changes. Ian is still highly regarded and busy with new designs. ;)

Elisabeth Grace continues to please me. On paper, and according to her designer, rowing is not the Caledonia yawl's forte. I suppose I'm too old and too dumb to know better. We had her out today for a most pleasant midday row about the lake. The C.Y. is a big hunk of boat with enormous capacity that moves through the water with ease. Spooky even. With one canoe paddle when needed. :)

There are few designs around that do so many things so very well. :cool:

Sorry to be away for so long. I'm back. I'll be asking a lot of fool questions. As usual. I missed this Forum.

[Dave Gray]

Venchka, is that really you or is that an impostor? Welcome back!

[Venchka]

Aye! I be Me! Thank you kindly. Good to be back. The Grand Scheme for the Epic Cruise is rekindled.

[kenjamin]

Yo Wayne,

Good that you're back! Totally agree with the ease a CY moves through the water as my Xena gets paddled with a single canoe paddle occasionally also. You should also try the extra tall oarlock thing too. Standing in the stern rowing (with the extra talls) while facing forward is not very efficient but great for obstacle laden thin water. Also if you have two rowing stations, one guy standing in the stern facing forward rowing with one oar while someone forward rows conventionly seated facing the other guy is a great way to cover longer distances with two rowing.

Fair winds,
kenjamin