Whilly boat for camp cruising

[LUGNUT]

I am looking for ideas for modifying my Whilly boat for camp cruising. As anyone who has sailed a Whilly boat knows, she is small. Last summer I went for a camping gruise with friends. My boat is set up so that the center thwart is removeable. The idea was that it would be easier to sleep on the floor board. Well, the floor is very narrow even after building it up with cushions.
What I am now wondering is what people think how the Whilly boat would perform without a centerboard but with the addition of a false keel of perhaps 3 or 4 inches? Removing the centerboard trunk would greatly open up the boat. Looking at pictures of Shetland Islands boat of which the Whilly boat is a derivative, i've noticed that they don't have centerboards. Would a Whilly boat set up like that be a dog?

[Garrett Lowell]

I think this question would best be answered by the designer, Iain Oughtred.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by LUGNUT:
... Would a Whilly boat set up like that be a dog?Yes.

The Shetland boats you refer to were quite large. Large enough to carry your Whilly boat as cargo (ok, a slight exageration, but not by much). They were rowed by 4 or 6 stout fellows. Sailing was secondary when the wind was favorable. They drew about 1 1/2 to 2 feet of water-more than the total depth of your boat.

Try fitting a bunk flat at thwart level. Putting your weight this high probably won't work or be uncomfortable. If that doesn't work, sleep on shore.

Desiring the same use for a boat, I had a Caledonia yawl built. My thwart is also removable to allow sleeping on the floorboards. Even in the larger CY, this is a tight fit. I plan to sleep at thwart level or on the beach.

Good luck!

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 03-22-2005, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

Pack a tent. Use the Whilly for sailing not sleeping. You'll be a lot happier. It probably dosn't help that Iain just made the Whilly bigger but not enough to have made a difference in your intended use.

[LUGNUT]

Where I go cruising (the Chesapeake) camping on the shore is not an option. Those rich homeowners don't take kindly to intruders. I'm going to see if I can rig up a hammock of some sort. If that doesn't work maybe I can try elevating the floorboards. As far as my question concerning how the boat would perform without a centerboard, i'm well aware that it's performance would probably be diminished somewhat. It's just a matter of how much. The ability to point high is not a priority for me. If I wanted a high pointing boat I wouldn't have gotten a Whilly boat anyway. If it would sail reasonably well with a false keel I might consider it. I just wish that Mr Oughtred would enter the modern world enough to at least get e-mail. Jeeze, i'm sort of a luddite myself but I have e-mail.

[StevenBauer]

I've seen some camp cruisers where the floorboards are sized to raise up and fill in the spaces between the thwarts. One big thwart level bunk. smile.gif
Join the Maine Island Trail and bring your boat up here. There are islands to camp on from here to Canada. The water is a little chillier than the Chesapeake, though.

Steven

[Venchka]

OK, that's two votes for sleeping at thwart level. Maybe. Could be a rock and roll kind of slumber in a boat the size of yours. Worth a try. A hammock could invite swimming.

Modifying the boat as you describe will most likely turn it into something akin to the old dories without centerboards: a boat for rowing upwind and sailing off the wind. I doubt that it will point as high as 60 degrees to the apparent wind. Not too good as sailboats go. Before you go and do something that will forever ruin your boat, think about a daggerboard. That would free up some space on the floorboards and still give you the option of pointing better than no board at all.

Iain answers his mail most of the time. Sure it takes awhile, but that's the way of most things in the wooden boat world.

Grinning. Build a new boat. Or do as Steven suggests and go cruising elsewhere.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

If you get rid of the centerboard then coming about will be a much more d-e-l-i-b-e-r-a-t-e move. A centerboard allows the boat to pivot around the centerboard as you tack. A long keel will make it feel more like a ship turning rather than a dingy.

[Venchka]

Assuming it turns at all. Might just kinda slip and slide sideways. My CY won't come about worth a hoot with the board up and I've got a lot more boat underwater.

But hey, Iain may know a thing or 3 and make us all liars! :D Truth be known? Iain has forgotten more about his boats than mere mortals will ever know.

I will stop beating my fingers and hush up.

I did post a query about places to camp onshore with another group. Some of the members sail on Cheapeake Bay. Standing by for an answer.


No problem, Wayne. Under Maryland law, anything below mean high tide is owned by the state. You just have to learn to sleep when
the tide is out, and get up again before your campsite is under water. ;)
Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 03-24-2005, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[htom]

What you campers need instead of centerboards and bilgeboards are leeboards. Mounting would be a problem. [runs away]

[Venchka]

Hmmmmmmmm...good suggestion. Why didn't I think of that? Get a letter off to Iain pronto! Leeboards it is! Maybe. Kinda. Sorta. Possibly.

I would still try sleeping at thwart level above the top of the centercase first. That should be easy to try and won't wreck the boat.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimJ]

With leeboards you could pull into shallow water, put both boards down into the mud/sand/rocks and have a level platform for sleeping :D

[generic]

The smaller Shetland inshore boats are called Whillies (strangly enough) or Eela boats.
They then go, Fourareen, Sixareen and very occasionally Eightareen. These words have to be said in a strange mix of Scottish and Norwegian accents called "Norn" to have thier true effect.

I seem to remember that Iains Whilly could be built with either a daggerboard or centerboard.
You would only need one leeboard.
The more traditional deep keel is an inefficient way to get lateral resistance for sailing, and interfeirs with rowing performance.

Anyone interested in some healthy Shetland Yawl boat porn?

www.fairisle.org.uk/ianbestboatbuilder/ (http://www.fairisle.org.uk/ianbestboatbuilder/)

:D

[Venchka]

Oh, you are just really wrong! The authorities must be notified!

I found this while I was being subjected to the Shetland boats...

http://www.fairisle.org.uk/davewheelerimages/South%20Georgia/Tilman/1F31_Mischief.jpg
South Georgia (http://www.fairisle.org.uk/davewheelerimages/South%20Georgia/index.htm)

I can almost see Shackleton.

Thank you!

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 03-24-2005, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[generic]

:cool:

Wish my name was berserkerish, like Ragnar (http://home.online.no/~joeolavl/viking/sunnmorsfaering.htm) or something.

:D

[LUGNUT]

Leeboards may be an answer, but not for me. I can't get past the fact that they're UGLY. As far as sleeping at thwart level goes, I think the Whilly boat is not stable enough. I think I just need a new boat.

[Steve Paskey]

Lugnut wrote: I think I just need a new boat. One word: WALKABOUT (http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/walkabout/index.htm)

[ 03-25-2005, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Steve Paskey ]

[htom]

One of you should write to Iain and ask about displacing the centerboard over to the edge of the garboard. Or about substituting a pair of bilgeboards at the interior of the side benches (I suppose that's about the same thing, only with two. Oh, you'd use the one that was lower, retracting the other.)

[Venchka]

Originally posted by Steve Paskey:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Lugnut wrote: I think I just need a new boat. One word: WALKABOUT (http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/walkabout/index.htm)</font>[/QUOTE]For one, Walkabout works. For two...do I have to say it?

Caledonia yawl. With a few changes during construction. Or Fulmar.

To be fair Truant (maybe), Houdini, Navigator, Pathfinder by John Welsford.

Alaska by Don Kurylko. Designed for two to sleep under a boom tent.

Alaska (http://www.dhkurylko-yachtdesign.com/designs.htm)

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[LUGNUT]

Getting back to my original question concerning a false keel on my Whilly Boat, I just looked at some pictures of a boat called the Drascombe Scaffie. Although it is considerably wider than the Whilly Boat, it is about the same length. It uses a false keel which looks to be about 6 inches deep and two bilge keels. Owners of this boat swear by it. So, what I was wondering was would a similar set-up work on the Whilly.

[JimD]

Lugnut, I know nothing about this for sure except to say that quite a few designers offer a variety of keel options for centerboards, fixed keels, and English designers often offer bilge fin options as well. So far as I understand, all of those different setups work just fine provided you get them in the right place and the right size. Still sounds like a question for a sympathetic designer to answer.

[Venchka]

Amen! Go to the source!

I would add that our cousins in the Mother Country are faced with extreme tidal ranges. The 3-point landing gear (a.k.a. fin keel+bilge keels) is a work-around for boats to dry out flat and remain upright. Some folks swear by the arrangement. Some swear at it. It depends.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[WWheeler]

Whilly boat with a keel? Not such a crazy idea - it's been done by Atkin. See his Valgerda design- reportedly an excellent camp cruiser.

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/Valgerda-3.gif

[Venchka]

Aye, Valgerda might be large enough to sleep aboard. The keel might be deep enough to prevent too much leeway. The ballast will keep her on her feet. Last, but precisely on target, she was designed from scratch by someone who knew what he was doing to look the way she looks.

Now, what do you suppose the Whilly boat would look like with that big old keel hanging from her belly? Huh?

http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/boatlists/images/whillyternplan.jpg

Here's the rest of the story by John Atkin:


A Little Norseman -- The Hardangersjekte

This type of boat originated in the Hardangerfjord, Norway -- thus she is a Hardangersjekte, "jekte" meaning boat. In their homeland the boats are used for fishing and other practical work. They were designed for rowing, but many of the boats now are rigged with a tall, narrow sail plan -- with hollow spars and light standing rigging.

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/Valgerda-1.gif

The "working boats" were fitted with an old-fashioned standing lug and they depended for stability on a cargo of fish. Because of their lack of initial stability, I designed a new keel - the original boats had a long, shallow keel approximately 4 inches deep. When loaded, they had sufficient lateral plane to hold the little craft on the wind. With expert handling, they had little difficulty in reaching port. In many respects, the Hardangersjekte has the same basic characteristics as our Bank dory, the Maine peapod, and similar workboats. Present-day Coast Guard loading rules would not give the Hardangersjekte a very good rating, but they have tremendous reserve stability and are excellent sea boats.

I've shown the standing lug rig -- solid spruce mast, yard, and boom. Sail area is 72 square feet, which will be sufficient to reach and run as well as to work to windward after a fashion. I'm fond of the simplicity of the standing lug rig, and I feel that in a boat of this type, a low aspect ratio is more effective. I prepared the rather shoal fin keel, fitted with lead ballast of approximately 106 pounds, because of her lack of initial stability and the unlikelihood of her carrying a cargo of fish.

http://www.boat-links.com/Atkinco/Sail/images/Valgerda-2.gif

Valgerda is 18 feet 7 inches overall by 14 feet 9 inches on her waterline by 5 feet 8 inches beam, with a draft of 1 foot 6 1/2 inches. Freeboard at her bow is 2 feet 6 3/8 inches and 2 feet 1/2 inch at the stern. She might very well be called a "double-chine" hull, which describes the sectional form very well; she will not be difficult to build. I have estimated that the finished boat will weigh about 600 pounds.

Her original construction incorporated 1/2 inch Scandinavian pine laid in three strakes, which would require planks some 20 inches wide. Obviously this would be difficult, indeed, to come by! As a result, I've shown her planked with 1/4 inch plywood, Harborite or Bruynzeel mahogany -- both of which are excellent. The planks need not be in single lengths -- and butt blocks may be used.

A comprehensive "how-to-build" article about Valgerda, written by my father, is available along with working drawings, including her lines; table of offsets; construction plan, elevation, and sections; sail plan and interior arrangement plans.
All courtesy of John Kohnen's wonderful web pages. Thank you, John. By the way, John owns a Valgerda.

Further to sleeping on a Whilly boat...I think for very little expense and a bit of experimenting, it may be possible to fit filler boards/plywood/whatever works at thwart level for a bunk. Lacking a load of fish, a row of water jugs arranged along either side of the centercase just might provide sufficient stability for sleeping. Jugs to be filled after sailing and prior to sleeping. Add a boom tent to keep the rain off.

If that fails, haul the boat to places where the shoreline is free for camping. smile.gif How about Lake Yellowstone? :D

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 03-30-2005, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]