Lapstrake canoe designs

[almeyer]

I'm starting to think way ahead for my next project, which will be a two person canoe. Here's my criteria:
- The design needs to be very stable (my wife DOES NOT like tippy boats!)
- Flat water only. We'll be canoeing the local bayous, so no rapids and very little if any current.
- Intended to be paddled with a traditional canoe paddle. I recognize the increased efficiency of a double paddle, but if I wanted to use a double paddle, I'd build a kayak.
- Big enough for two "non-slender" adults, but would like to be able to solo in it also.
- Reasonably light weight, so I can pick it up without trouble and load it on the truck or carry to the dock.
- Not too difficult to build.
- IT'S GOTTA LOOK PRETTY!

I'm familar with glued lap construction, my first attempt, a 14' daysailer, came out well enough and the lapstrake construction looks good. I've done some reading about cedar strip construction, they are very pretty when finished, and there seems to be lots of designs out there. The strippers seem to be a little more difficult and time consuming to build, but I may be wrong.

I'm considering Chris Kulczycki's Sassafras 16 or the Cavendish shown in Tom Hill's book (who is the designer and where can I get plans?)
If anyone has any experience with these two designs, or can recommend others, I'd appreciate it.
Al

[JimConlin]

Tom Hill had not gome underground, last I knew. Use the search thingy. He's near Burlington, VT. If no joy, report and i'll rummage my files.

Jim

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

When you specified a lapstrake design you automatically selected a fairly round bottom design. Round bottoms tend to feel a bit tippier than flat bottoms.
Flat bottom canoes have a turn of the bilge that is rather severe and I think it would be very difficult to lay planks to that form.
But all is not lost. Most canoe shapes will feel stable if the seats are low enough to get the center of gravity of the loaded boat at or beneath the center of mass of the boat. What this gobbeldyggok means is that you keep lowering the seat until you feel comfortable. If after a time you feel more assured you can raise the seats by doing some minor surgury.
Glued lapstrake canoes can be built to fairly low weights because the epoxy requirment is quite low. CLC's patented lapstrake is a different animal and takes sufficiently more epoxy to make a joint so expect a heavier hull. On the other hand, glued lapstake ala Tom Hill requires at least 7 planks per side while CLC can get away with only 5.
If you master Tom Hill's method you can apply it to alot of other kinds of boat. I don't think The CLC method has as broad an application.
Charlie

[Steve Lansdowne]

If your wife doesn't like tippy boats, don't do a canoe, as they seem very tippy until you're nestled snugly in them. Of course you could make one with an outrigger. Now there's an idea for the bayous!! A double paddle canoe (where you sit on the bottom or close to it) is somewhat like a kayak but much more stable. Once you're in it, it feels quite stable. Perhaps if you held the canoe and let your wife get in first, then you got in, things would go better. I've never seen a 2 person double paddle canoe, though there may be one. You need to be sure the beam at the point you sit is no more than about 29 inches in order to paddle without the paddle hitting the outwales. This would not be a problem for the bow paddler, but might be for the person in the stern.

[ 10-17-2004, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Steve Lansdowne ]

[Keith Wilson]

I built a 16' Tom Hill canoe, to plans obtained from him. I think the designer was Carl Bausch, the guy that Hill learned to build from, and one of the first to build light glued-lap plywood canoes. There's an article about Bausch and Hill in an early WB magazine.

I hate to say anything bad about a particular design, but mine is VERY tender, so much so that it's been used very little, and I don't dare sell it to anyone else. It's OK if one of the paddlers is sitting on the bottom, but otherwise it feels like it will toss you in the water if you wiggle slightly or scratch your ear. It's not just me; I've paddled a fair number of different canoes, and this is the only one I've ever been in that felt like that. AFAIK it's the shape shown on the plans, and the seats are mounted slightly lower than the plans show. It is very pretty, and it was a good introduction to lapstrake boatbuilding, but I sure wouldn't build another one.

[Bill Perkins]

A flat bottom would be most stable , and easy to build as well . The sides could still be lapstrake .How about using the 18 foot light batteau from Gardner's Dory Book as a starting point ( 18 ft. LOA ,36 in. beam ,12 in. depth , 95 lb. ) .It's intended to be paddled .The bottom and sides are of 1/4 in. ply .If she seems too heavy all the given dimensions could be reduced to yield a ( tippier) 16 foot boat weighing about 80 lb.

T

[bob goeckel]

i built a stretched daisy type of tom hill lap about 14'. it was so tippy with the seats lowered about 3" that i could not let go of the dock on the first launching. subsequent seat movements(lower and moved closer together)helped some but it's still tender. as a solo boat with a temporary seat placed amidship it's a great solo canoe and i use it alot. ever think about cedar canvas? i started my first last year at this time and was ready for the water my spring. while chalenging i now have a mold that has produced 2 more boats. if i can do it so can you. if you were closer you could borrow the mold.

[dmede]

I built Walter Simmons 15' glued lap ply canoe. It's really a large solo but it handles me and my girlfreind (and a bit of gear) very nicely. He also has a 17' model intended as a tandem. They are all double paddle designs. He calls for construction of a very low seat (2" - 4" off keel) but we just sit in our little padded crazy creek chairs right on the bottom. It is very stable once down in it and not too bad when getting in, once your used to it. Great canoe, very nice shape but it does have 7 strakes per side.

You can see some pics at the links below:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4287350627

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4288734459

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

To all you folks who have spent time and material to build a wonderful lapstrake canoe and find it tender.
The answer to your tippy problem may be no farther than your prayer bones. If you are still agile enough to paddle from a kneeling position you may find that the tenderness goes away.
I paddle a 3-panel pirogue that is only 22" across the bottom. It's tippy personified. But I've found that I can navigate waves and rapids while kneeling with great assurance and my head is high enough off the water to spot upcoming obsticles.
I tried sitting in the bottom but found that I would need footrests and a back support to really feel locked into the boat.
Charlie

[Keith Wilson]

The answer to your tippy problem may be no farther than your prayer bones. Alas, my knees wouldn't have tolerated that fifteen years ago, much less now. Gotta have seats, or sit on the bottom and use a double paddle. (Not much into prayer, either, but that's a subject for the bilge. ;) )

[ 10-18-2004, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[almeyer]

Thanks for all the advice, keep it coming! Dmede, that's a very nice job you did on your canoe, I enjoyed the imagestation sites.
I think I may have my wife spoiled, the lapstrake daysailer I built also makes a fine rowboat, and she really enjoys that (of course, I'm the one rowing!). The down side to the rowboat is that it's heavy enough that it needs to be launched from a trailer, and a lot of the nicer bayous around here don't have a boat ramp. Some do, but then you're limited to scenery consisting of houses and bulkheads. Hence the request for a canoe.
I've got a 6-hour canoe which I use to explore the bayous, it's ideal for that application but limited to a single person. I've seen John Gardner's batteau in his dory book; it's not very different in design or construction and would do the job, but I wouldn't mind something a little nicer looking. Then again, my 6-hr canoe was made of luan ply, finished bright, but it still looks better than most plastic boats on the water. It was intended for a double paddle, but even with a low seat, I can single paddle it fairly well.
After thinking about it, I have to agree with the comment made that lapstrake construction neccessarily means a fairly round bottom hull. I may need to give up on a lapstrake design and start reading up on cedar srip/epoxy construction. I'd like to do a little more looking/thinking before settling on a batteau. I think if I could find something as stable as a store-bought canoe (fairly flat bottom, little if any rocker), that should do well enough. Do you think Coleman would sell me lines and offsets for their canoes? :eek:

[Venchka]

Spend hours, days, weeks in a rented/borrowed canoe with your wife to verify her likes/dislikes re: canoes. Ask me how I know. :D

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[JimConlin]

I have a 15'6" strip composite canoe, Bob's Special (http://www.bearmountainboats.com/gallery_Bobs_Spec.htm) built to plans from Bear Mountain Boats (http://www.bearmountainboats.com/15-0BobsSpecial.htm) . It's capacious enough for two adults a kid and a dog (40#(. the seats are about 3" below the rail, so there's room under the seats to kneel, which I prefer. It is stable enough that we can use the seats in relatively flat water. It weighs 50 lbs., so I can load and launch it alone. As an averyday family canoe, it serves well.
As much as I like the appearance of glued lapstrake construction in a boat like this, I much prefer cedar strip. Plywood won't tolerate abuse as well as the glass skin of a strip boat and will need more, and more difficult, maintenance. Lapstrake planking a boat with the form like the Bob's Special would take maybe ten planks per side. At the turn of the bilge, they'd be maybe 2-1/2" wide. A 16' x 2-1/2" x 4mm is a very wayward thing. A 'Tom Hill' style setup is necessary and adds to the time and cost.

[Bill Perkins]

Almeyer the the straight sided molds of the Light Batteau could be padded out to use lapstrake very simply ( no lap bevels or spiling required ), and I don't think you can beat the flat bottom for initial stability .Well ,mabe I'll build one someday .

[ 10-19-2004, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Bill Perkins ]

[bob goeckel]

FORGET COLEMAN!!!! unless you want to paddle a barge. had one and paddled another. just look at the profile head-on and you'll see what i mean.

[Popeye]

not only that, but the flexure will rob all your paddling enrgy, you need stiffness for speed.

[htom]

Another single canoe might work well, too.

[dmede]

almeyer, you can build any straight sided boat lapstrake if you know what to do. Take a look at Atkins designs. Tons of straight sided lapstrake skiffs.

JimConlin, I disagree on strip built being less trouble than lap, at least for glued lap as opposed to traditional lap construction. Ply tolerates quite a bit of abuse and needs no messy epoxy application (except in the laps for glued lap const.). If left bright a strip built boat needs copious amounts of varnish every year, much harder to get right than simple boat or, gasp, house paint. As for number of laps, well you can get away with whatever numnber you want really. Harry Bryan builds some nice looking double paddle canoes with only three laps per side:

http://www.harrybryan.com/harrybryan/fiddlehead14.6.html]http://www.harrybryan.com/harrybryan/fiddlehead14.6.html

[ 10-19-2004, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: dmede ]

[JimConlin]

I thought I was explicit about the planking of the model of a conventional (Brits call it 'Canadian') canoe.

Lapstrake planking a boat with the form like the Bob's Special would take maybe ten planks per side. ... A boat with a flat bottom and a noticeable 'chine' at the bottom's edge is a very different story.

Harry Brian's boats are very nice things. It should be noted, though, that they are of a dory model with (solid) plank bottoms, considerable 'kink' at the edge of the bottom and sides with lots of flare in the topsides. The solid bottoms will take abuse. It should also be noted that they're all 'sit-in-the-bottom' boats. If you were to try to put a seat in one that was 5-6" above the waterline, you'd take a swim quickly. Remember that Banks dories depended on heavy construction for their stability. Light Dories (Search for comments on the Bolger light dory (aka 'Gloucester Gull) and nobody who's rowed one would call it steady. To get the form stability needed for kneeling or sitting in a tandem canoe, the 'Canadian canoe' model, with little or no deadrise and a relatively quick turn of the bilge is a good solution. Planking that in glued lapstrake is a bear. That's what I was referring to above.

I have two varnished strip canoes. They're outdoors year-round, mostly. If I'm being virtuous, they're on a rack with a tarp over 'em. Sometimes they're on the ground. Always guts-down. The older one is ten years old. An encounter with a rock scuffs the varnish but has hasn't yet penetrated the structural f**** skin (save for one 1" scrape). They get an average of one coat of varnish a year. Takes me two hours per (unless I get ambitious). Rollers help a lot.

I have a glued lapstrake pulling boat to Ken Bassett's 'Liz' design. The bottom has a white oak shoe which tolerates knocks and scrapes very well. The planking is 4mm. okoume, painted. It has been lots less tolerant of scuffs. a very light hit at the edge of a plank will penetrate into the okoume, requiring prompt medical attention.

So, it being too late to make a long story short, If the need is for a tandem canoe with a comforting degree of stability when kneeling or sitting (up), the 'Canadian canoe' model, is a good solution. It is well suited to Strip composite construction.

Incidentally, the 'Tupperware' (Coleman) canoes' models are what they are so they'll nest for shipping and to suit the molding process. That shape is badly compromised for the wrong reasons.

Vote often and early,
Jim

[RodB]

From what you have described you want, the very stable Lutra Flyfisher in the current Woodenboat Magazine would be hard to beat. I have looked at this pretty hard and the construction is quite simple, the stability is there, the ease of paddling is there and she looks great. David NIchols will e-mail you some other photos if you want to see more.

At 60 lbs, this is quite a design that he spent almost 8 years perfecting, and he has really thought out this canoe...!

RB

[BillyBudd]

It sounds as if there ought to be a Tom Hill Canoe Moanin' & Tippy Chair Society! I too built one, the 14' version, and on the big launch day, she flipped me: gonna teach that guy! It is a tender canoe. Tippy and all that, but I've learned to cajole her, to actually do well in her by now. Despite thoughts about it, I never did lower or reposition the seats, and I was taught to never canoe sitting although I sometimes do, knees do freeze up after too much kneeling. I like her and would, given all this, suggest her if you a) don't mind building a beautiful mold that'll become firewood, and b) are willing to be the novice of the canoe. Would I build her again? No, but maybe I would if there isn't a nice one out there. Ohhhh, and I once met Carl Bausch before his passge through the Gorge of Final Rapids and thought him a great wild man...he told me to forget about plans for a lightweight canoe, "Sketch one up yourself." Maybe I should have listened to him? :confused:

[Brian Palmer]

OK, in defense of Tom Hill, I built the 11 1/2 ft Charlotte double paddle canoe and I like it a lot.

I admit that it is not a tandem canoe and I sit on the bottom on a small pad. It does have a tippy feel when you first get in, but it has great secondary stability and feels like a little lifeboat in a chop. It feels very capable.

We've paddled it with an adult and one kid and there is little the kids can do to make it feel like you are going in the drink.

-- Brian

[BillyBudd]

Ohhhmygosh! Just realized what you might like: A Decked Canoe / Kayak by Harry Bryan! Lapstrake of few strakes, flat-bottomed, various sizes, made without (or, if you must, with) plywood. See, I suppose, www.harrybryan.com (http://www.harrybryan.com) and if that doesn't work then just call him up and get some brochures or maybe plans. We have them here: my wife said NO to my Tom Hill canoe (hasn't been in it in years), but snatched up the plans from Harry in less than a moment's thought. This would make a great project, as my wife repeatedly suggests.

[Keith Wilson]

I've paddled a Charlotte double paddle canoe; it's a wonderful little boat, entirely stable when one sits on the bottom. My larger one would be great if I could sit on the bottom and use a double paddle, but it's too wide for that. :(

[ 10-20-2004, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]