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Peacefuljourney
02-25-2010, 09:38 AM
Hey!
I need some bit of outside point of view on that....

Ok I use Aerodux 500 (Resorcinol) glue for the backbone of the boat (A 26 ft Gartside Cutter) which worked ok but that glue get really damn expensive at 500$us a gallon with the shipping. After 2 and a half gallon to finish the backbone, I am kind of a guy hating glue.

The boat will have double sawn frames, scarfed, riveted and glued. I have seen the Titebond III that I have worked with some long time ago, and that it's rated waterproof. I am thinking to use it for the frames, being riveted I think the glue can hold that part well but just want to see a outside point of view. The part of the frames in the bildge will be well painted to help the glue+wood.

Thanks!

stevedwyer
02-25-2010, 10:09 AM
What kind of wood for the frames?
As you know from the backbone, resorcinol requires tight fitting joints, as does Titebond III.
In the long run, the price of glue may be the least of your worries. I'd be more concerned as to the best bond for the wood.
Have you considered the somewhat flexible epoxy used for spars?

I have had good luck with the Titebond, but it hasn't been around long enough for me to really trust it.

James McMullen
02-25-2010, 10:12 AM
I think it would be a huge mistake to use a second-rated Choice B that has no data on how well it stands the test of time in the extremely laborious to repair vital structure of your boat. Why don't you wait to start pinching pennies on something less irreplaceable than your boat's framing?!? What kind of wood are your frames, anyways? And what method of planking, too?

Peacefuljourney
02-25-2010, 10:38 AM
Hi thanks for the answer,
the frames are black locust.

Normal double sawn frames are usually only riveted not glued this is why I am not to worry for that. I am gluing them just to add a bit more of strenght to it. The boat is carvel planked riveted too, so the rivet will hold the scarf on frames too.... The frames will be riveted on every direction almost, so this is why I think glue is not as important as on the backbone.

I am not worry for tight fit, the backbone was made with 1/128" of gap tolerance. The Aerodux 500 is a gap filling resorcinol to 1/16".

I want to stay away from epoxy from my own opinion it's the worst adhesive on wood. Each time I see a delamination on a boat and I ask with adhesive he use, it's always Epoxy the answer ... But that's my own believe.

Bob Smalser
02-25-2010, 11:03 AM
...I want to stay away from epoxy from my own opinion it's the worst adhesive on wood. Each time I see a delamination on a boat and I ask with adhesive he use, it's always Epoxy the answer ...

You're about to make the wrong choice for the wrong reasons. There are at least three reasons not to use Titebond outlined in the summary below.



Are Your Glue Joints Repairable?
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=21822

General Notes on Glues and Goos


Resorcinol: The marine standard. If you can get 70 degrees F or higher for an overnight cure and consistent and high clamping pressure with no gaps, you won’t go wrong using it. (Throw an electric blanket over it to be sure.) Likes wood at 10-15% MC, according to Navy tests. Long open time. Repairable with epoxy. Ugly red glue line.

Marine Epoxy: The repair and restoration standard. Bonds well to a wide variety of materials, and usable in almost all flexibility and temperature conditions. Needs no clamping pressure, only contact. Fills gaps well....but easy to overclamp, starving the glue joint when pulling in thick stock. Likes wood below 12% MC. Repairable with itself; joints can sometimes be broken apart for repair using heat. Clear, relatively thick glue line and can be dyed to match the wood. Controllable open time with different hardeners. Slightly permeable to water vapor and there are many reports of failures in fully saturated wood and with White Oak. Very sensitive to UV, requiring protection.

3M 5200: A rubbery, polyurethane sealant in various colors with adhesive properties sometimes used as a glue. Fails as a glue under water saturation without high clamping pressure, and without the proper strength testing I couldn’t do here, it’s not recommended as a stand-alone marine glue. Repairable with epoxy.

Liquid Polyurethane: Gorilla Glue, Elmer’s Probond, Elmer’s Ultimate, and others. Versatile in temperature and bonding wet wood with moderate open time, these glues aren’t rated for below waterline use but initial use shows potential as a marine glue. Likes high clamping pressure and fits similar to resorcinol…it won’t fill gaps. Will successfully glue green wood at 30% MC, but the wetter the wood, the weaker the bond. Repairable with epoxy. Noticeable, yellow-brown glue lines.

PL Premium Construction Adhesive: This polyurethane goo shows promise as a marine glue with further testing and use. Works like 3M 5200 but cures and behaves like liquid poly. Appears to bond well to everything epoxy does, and more where epoxy and liquid poly won’t, perhaps because of a higher isocyanate content…it bonds to difficult surfaces only cyanoacrylate super glues will bond to. The only general-use glue I’ve found that will bond difficult aliphatic-contaminated surfaces. Appears flexible to temperature and moisture content with gap-filling ability, but as a construction adhesive, its open time is shorter than liquid poly. Appeared to like high clamping pressure, and unlike other glues, wouldn’t bond at all without at least some. Repairable with itself and epoxy. Glue line as in liquid poly.

Urea Formaldehyde Plastic Resin Glue: Weldwood, DAP and others. The old interior furniture standard, and in older marine applications that required well-blended glue lines. Still preferred by many, as it is a no-creep glue easily repaired using epoxy. Long open time, it needs tight fits and 65 degrees F or higher for an overnight cure…it doesn’t fill gaps. Best glue line among them all and moderate water resistance still make it useful for interior marine brightwork applications. A relatively brittle glue and UV sensitive, it requires protection….but its brittleness is an aid to repairability, as joints can often be broken apart for repair. An inexpensive powder with a short, one-year shelf life.

The Titebond Family of Aliphatics: Convenient. No mixing, just squeeze. Short open times, fast tack, and short clamping times. Fast, and an acceptable long-grain layup glue…in heated, commercial shops, I’ve had rough-cut Titebond panel layups in and out of the clamps and thru the planer inside of an hour. Flexible in temperature and to a lesser extent in moisture content, but the bottled glue can freeze in unheated shops, and glueups require 55 degrees or warmer to cure. A flexible glue, it has been reported to creep under load, sometimes several years after the joint was made. Franklin doesn't recommend Titebond for either structural (think Gluelam beams) or marine use. The latest “Titebond III” appears to be a stronger glue than its two predecessors. Difficult glues to repair, as they won’t stick to themselves and no other glues will except cyanoacrylates, which are too brittle for general use. Epoxy and fabric aren’t bonding to aliphatic glue lines in marine strip construction, compounding repair difficulties. While not definitive, the new PL Premium appears to bond well to Titebond III residue and is worth pursuing by those repairing old white and yellow aliphatic joints.

James McMullen
02-25-2010, 11:05 AM
Black locust frames, double-sawn and riveted together, carvel planked. . . .

Here's my professional opinion as someone who now repairs older wooden boats to earn my daily mocha latte: Don't glue 'em at all. Bed 'em in red lead and rivet away. Your locust frames are quite likely to break any glue joint after several seasons of moisture cycling, and then you'll have an unbedded crack to act as a rot pocket. If you're going to build traditional carvel, do it the way we know works out over the long haul. Use red lead, or alternatively a bedding compound like dolphinite or even tar. Neither resorcinol nor Titebond nor epoxy are correct in this method of construction for this particular joint. There's a reason why "normal" for double sawn frames are "usually only riveted not glued". . . . . You're not adding a bit more of strength to it, you're adding a problem down the road. Build to the plans, my friend.

James McMullen
02-25-2010, 11:11 AM
I want to stay away from epoxy from my own opinion it's the worst adhesive on wood.


Your belief is incorrect. Used correctly, epoxy is the most versatile and effective adhesive for wood that has yet been invented. The problems arise only where it is not used correctly, or when it is used for the wrong purpose. Because it is so versatile and gap-filling, it is often used incorrectly by amateurs--this does not mean that it isn't an incredibly useful adhesive.

stevedwyer
02-25-2010, 11:16 AM
Black Locust is an excellent choice for frames, in my opinion.
And now aware of the material, I second JM's advice, no glue at all.

wizbang 13
02-25-2010, 11:50 AM
3rd on the no glue .1/ 128 gap! definately don't use epoxe there. It likes something more like, oh, 1/8

Peacefuljourney
02-25-2010, 01:01 PM
Well sound's like no glue then ... I never worked with red lead, is that like a paste or more of a paint? I think I would prefer a paste there then, that fill and can move with the wood.

Ok I know this is another topic but talking about traditional ... The designer give the choice between laminated deck & solid laid deck. I begin to hate glue and thinking or solid laid which is really easy to repair and maintain ... But make the boat less strong and need bronze strapping for reinforcement. With double sawn frames, knees on every frames what you guys think about both?

Not having to buy glue for laid deck I would go for a better wood, like Iroko for doing so ... Probably riveted to the deck beam.

James McMullen
02-25-2010, 03:53 PM
Red lead is a super toxic, industrial paint that has been used for many, many years in boatbuilding applications. I get mine from FarWest Industries.

A laminated plywood deck is actually stronger and lighter weight than traditional laid decks. This would be one place where you could incorporate a more modern material into you traditional carvel-planked build. The very best covering for a plywood deck is probably Dynel cloth laid in epoxy. . . .

stevedwyer
02-25-2010, 03:55 PM
There's red lead paint, which contains various anti-fungal and anti-rot ingredients. It's getting hard to find in the northeast US.
And there is white lead paste. Most folks I know use the red lead paint for frames.

James could you provide a link or web address for FarWest?

Mrleft8
02-25-2010, 03:58 PM
Red lead is paint, but the red lead that I've used has a fairly thck consistency.... Somewhere between heavy cream and pancake batter.

James McMullen
02-25-2010, 04:27 PM
X-6748 Red Lead Primer (http://www.farwestpaint.com/MSDS/X-6748.htm)

jigger
02-25-2010, 07:34 PM
As far as red lead goes just plan a trip to Canada and get some there. Buy enough.Also Titebond3 is very waterproof. I put it through several severe tests when it was first introduced.It passed every thing I could do to make it fail.

outofthenorm
02-25-2010, 07:41 PM
Just plan a trip to Canada and get some there. Buy enough.

Wish that was true. The last CDN supplier I know of stopped making it about 3 years ago.

- Norm

floatingkiwi
02-26-2010, 02:43 AM
Hi thanks for the answer,
the frames are black locust.

Normal double sawn frames are usually only riveted not glued this is why I am not to worry for that. I am gluing them just to add a bit more of strenght to it. The boat is carvel planked riveted too, so the rivet will hold the scarf on frames too.... The frames will be riveted on every direction almost, so this is why I think glue is not as important as on the backbone.

I am not worry for tight fit, the backbone was made with 1/128" of gap tolerance. The Aerodux 500 is a gap filling resorcinol to 1/16".

I want to stay away from epoxy from my own opinion it's the worst adhesive on wood. Each time I see a delamination on a boat and I ask with adhesive he use, it's always Epoxy the answer ... But that's my own believe.
The tenacity of epoxy is such that I would not blame it for the failed joints you witnessed, but more so the method with which it was applied.

woodenMFV
03-01-2010, 04:10 PM
...but talking about traditional ... The designer give the choice between laminated deck & solid laid deck. I begin to hate glue and thinking or solid laid which is really easy to repair and maintain ...

Easier to maintain?? ..."traditional" decks come with the traditional fun of "bucket-and-bowl-placing" when it starts dripping everywhere! If you like the look, then make and artificial one on top of the ply.

Obviously you must have a real aversion against glue! :) I think glue is one of the best blessings for wooden boats since the invention of the nail!


I want to stay away from epoxy from my own opinion it's the worst adhesive on wood

I hear that also here and there; and when you ask deeper, they admit they used Polyester, NOT Epoxy. If I could afford, I would use epoxy everywhere - it's the only "for-ever-glue" for wood (if applied properly of course)
Epoxy is one of the BEST "glues" for wood - I would call it "wood-replacement".

Peacefuljourney
03-02-2010, 08:52 AM
Yeah I do hate glue. It stick to my tools, smell bad, need to wait for it to cure so slow me down, need to hurry to assemble, toxics, get more expensive then the wood itself, hard to repair on a boat as the MC of wood is always too high etc...

Except that it work more then nails ... the left over is mostly bad thing about it.
Yes we may end up doing laminated deck with strip of 3/8 iroko above it. Probably screw by the under instead which in the long run may help the lamination to resist rot as more waterproof.

GJBan
03-04-2010, 09:29 PM
I did a test with Titebond III by gluing some dry pine with clamping and letting it dry for some time. I then put the pieces in an area where they would not be disturbed while being exposed to the weather.

They delaminated within 6 months.

Peacefuljourney
03-14-2010, 09:56 PM
Ok I had time to think about this for quite some days now... And I came to a conclusion.

I agree that glue will have a really hard life on the frames. Rot if glue fail is not a problem as the frames are black locust. And if one day I see black locust rotting, well it was worth it to do it that way just to see it.

So I am thinking, probably use 5200 instead for gluing the frames. It is flexible and a adhesive, which I think in the long run can work great.

Ideas?

Bob Smalser
03-14-2010, 11:04 PM
So I am thinking, probably use 5200 instead for gluing the frames. It is flexible and a adhesive, which I think in the long run can work great.

Ideas?

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/6771586/382303649.jpg

It sure was nice to be able to save the mahogany cheeks intact in this lower frame replacement. Otherwise it would have cost me another day removing those seat risers. Or more, as the soft, Phillips-head bronze screws liked to twist off in the old-growth Yellow Cedar of this boat. Had they been installed with 5200, I doubt I could have saved them, and that would have cost even another day getting out and installing new ones.

So during replacement, I gave the same consideration to the next guy and bedded them in a non-adhesive compound (red lead paste).

If for some reason I used 4200 or 5200 because I liked its longevity or that's all I had, I'd have primed and enameled all the faying surfaces, then coated them with paste wax so the compound sealed under the rivets, but didn't stick to the wood.

James McMullen
03-14-2010, 11:13 PM
That's way more expensive and much more problematical down the road than just doing it the right way. I'm just sayin'. . . . . . . . . .

3M5200 is wonderful stuff when used for the right application. This is not the right application. May I refer you to post #6?

bob easton
03-15-2010, 06:56 AM
Hear here on the 5200! This isn't the right use for it and you'll be miserable if you ever need to make a repair.

You've had lots of good suggestions by people with well respected experience. They're trying to help avoid misery in the future. BTW, Dolphonite is an easy to use bedding compound that's less toxic than red lead paint and much easier to deal with in the future than 5200.

Peacefuljourney
03-15-2010, 07:58 AM
Ok Ok ;)
So without adhesive, how many copper rivets you guys put. 1 every 6" or so?

chuckt
03-15-2010, 08:54 AM
Hey Peaceful. I think 5200 has its uses. A fella named Dan Danenburg who wrote "How to Restore Wooden Runabouts" uses it very extensively to attach bottoms to frames and to bed the outer planking against the inner. I wouldn't use it on a traditional planked bottom. Although danenburg says the stuff does nto impede repairs if you have the right tools, I am restoring an old Chris Craft that had extensive 5200 repairs in the starboard bow planking and none on the port. I damaged most of the frames in the 5200 area removing planking and the planking was totally destroyed. I had all the right tools but you just cant get a tool in the right places to either cut or melt 5200. On the port side of my Chris Craft that had no 5200 everything came off very nicely. Now, if you were doing an epoxy bottom ala West or Cold-Molding I think it might have a place (others will disagree) In fact, the technical guys at West Gougeon told me it would be a good adhesive to attach a plywood bottom to oak framing to avoid any issues with oak's poor (or poor reputation) for working well with epoxy. I think Black Locust has a better reputation for working with epoxy but I defer to others on that.

BTW--I'm not sure I agree with the summary statement above that 5200 is subject to failure as a glue when it stays wet. I see no signs of that in the boat I am restoring--quite the opposite. Maybe the wood will fail from being wet but that's not the 5200's fault. But maybe there is some testing that bears this out. I would be suprirsed but interested to learn if this were true-- Danenburg has quite a few years of using 5200 sucessfully on the outside bottom of his boats.

Bob Smalser
03-15-2010, 09:04 AM
BTW--I'm not sure I agree with the summary statement above that 5200 is subject to failure as a glue when it stays wet. I see no signs of that in the boat I am restoring--quite the opposite. But maybe there is some testing that bears this out. I would be suprirsed -- Danenburg has quite a few years of using 5200 sucessfully on the outside bottom of his boats.

Without clamping pressure during the cure, 5200 will peel right off of wood once it becomes saturated. I've repaired carvel boats where it was used as a seam compound and have pulled it out of the seams in long, rubber ropes.

Just like this:

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/7738131/103956088.jpg

Peacefuljourney
03-15-2010, 10:26 AM
Ok like usual everybody got his own believe on this.

So let's explain a bit more. Double sawn frames have usually butt joint, but like happen on Seraffyn who had sawn frames every third frames, 3 frames broke because of that. As a joint cannot be stronger then the futtock on the side of it, and the 3 times it broke it was a planking rivet going into that futtock. I know it was mahogany, so not as strong as black locust.

On his next boat Pardey used resorcinol, and after so many miles and with scarf joint no incident was reported that I am aware of.

But I do agree too, that with dolphinite it will be easier to repair and this is the reason why I have chosen double sawn frames instead of steam bent one. So I guess the fact is, if it's glued (With a really good adhesive) it have less tendency to break, but if so they will be a big pain to repair. But if only with light caulking, they may break more often but will be easy to repair.

I guess I can scarf futtock even if not glued, which the planking rivets will hold.
I am just throwing what my conclusion is so far... I may be wrong or drunk ;)

boattruck
03-15-2010, 10:27 AM
Peaceful, A rivet every six" or so sounds right, double sawn frames are a wonderful frame, they provide a luxuriously large area for fastening off your planking. The chief downsides are the shocking waste produced, and the labor required as compared to steaming, and possibly the over all weight. I think you will be quite happy with the finished product once you get rolling, the other thing to remember is that the plank fastening also serve to hold the frame pairs together. In my opinion, no glue in the faying surfaces, red lead or other preservative type coating... And get some frame pairs built and stood up! Cheers, BT

chuckt
03-15-2010, 11:19 AM
Hey Bob-Now I see what you are saying--yeah I absolutely I believe that without clamping and exposed to the elements 5200 would fail as a glue. I didn't understand what the summary was saying on that point. Now that I understand, I fully agree with that. Thanks for the correction. I definitely worry about using 5200 just becaus it makes repairs so dificult. Danenburg says all you need is a sharp knife, a multimaster and/or a hot wire or blade. But I found you just cant often get these tools where you need them. For example, removing a topside plank means you got to get your tool on the backside and work it between plank and batten or frame. Even the multimaster took forever to cut through. No way to get a wire in there and the joints were too tight for a hot blade. But maybe I was missing something. I'd like to see Danenberg repair one of his 5200 boats--I'm sure he must know some tricks.

boattruck
03-15-2010, 05:45 PM
Peacful, Although I personally think it is overkill, you could quick and dirty scarf each futtuck together individually, offsetting the scarfs, then rivet them together, but generally we don't see too much trouble with double sawn frames, so I think you are making more work and waste, for not much significant gain, Cheers, BT

Peacefuljourney
03-15-2010, 06:36 PM
Ok thanks all for answers....
I cut some black locust and started to build a frame to get the hang of it and trying it (As I received Dolphinite today to assemble the backbone).

Without glue the scarf was a pain, as not wide enough to put a rivet in and need to wait the planking to squeeze the scarf together. Dolphinite is a bit messy to work with, but less worst then glue. Now got to work to have a nice finish with it, I modified a clamp to hold the rivet in and squeeze the futtock together before riveting. Once again the scarf was a pain to put a rivet every 6", so .... everything make sense for the old fashion way....

Thanks all.

boattruck
03-15-2010, 07:23 PM
Peaceful, Yeah without glueing the futtock scarfs together, I imagine it would make you pull yer hair out, all those greasy parts sliding hither and yon...maybe try one glued, see if that makes it more workable, Cheers,BT

seo
03-15-2010, 10:07 PM
Typical practice in New England was to fasten sawn-frame futtocks together with treenails, even if the plank fastenings were going to be metal. The reason being that if you were drilling for fastenings, and hit a treenail, no big deal. But if you hit a metal bolt... I wonder if the larger bearing area of a treenail might not be better than a rivet with a small diameter, because any load will be in shear, not in tension. The job of holding the futtocks together and in place will be done by the plank fastenings. When both futtocks are fastened to the same planks, the planks act as cleats holding the futtocks together and in place.
But those might be bigger hulls than you're talking about.

Peacefuljourney
03-15-2010, 11:33 PM
maybe try one glued, see if that makes it more workable, Cheers,BT

Well with glued scarf we end up with the same problem of repair at the end. If I think about it, make scarf, glue them, wait for cure, plane the wood, dolphinite and compound ...

It is stronger yes, but the time it will take me to make all the scarf on a frames... It add a considerable amount of work. Let's think about it, if 3 frames broke in the next 5 years because of butt join, it will be way less work to just repair those 3 one ;)

I know I was the glue guy at the beginning, but you do have convinced me... I still didn't take my final conclusion on all that yet ;)

For tree nail, well the copper rivets are 1/8" in diameter so that's not a problem. The frames are 2" x 2 1/2" so I have plenty of place to look and put at the good area the other rivet for the planking. But it does make sense for larger hull.

I will go sleep on all that, maybe a miracle answer will appear in the morning :D

peter radclyffe
03-16-2010, 12:01 AM
if frames break, you can increase the moulding
scarfing double sawn futtocks is a lot of time

boattruck
03-16-2010, 12:36 AM
Peacefull, And lets face it, she was drawn with steambents originally, I'v got to guess that with well done (B. locust!) double sawn frames you are not going to see any frame problems for your lifetime... Consider simplifying your life and paint the faying surfaces of the futtock parts with red lead or the like and call that good, save yourself the misery of chasing parts lubed up in dolfinite ( which in my experiance, will likely be a dusty, crispy remnant in 5 to 7 years anyway...) Also remember a bronze screw that inadvertantly nicks a copper rivet is basicly nothing to worry about...Cheers, BT

cap'nRod
03-16-2010, 12:38 AM
It is somewhat interesting that so many people hereabouts are so concerned about how well an adhesive will hold that they discount using it for fear that it will hold too well. LOL!
Put it together like it will never come apart. Then, in 20 or 30 or 50 years the boat will still be together, and not just a loose jumble of failed joints that ends up going to a scrap yard because nobody wants to deal with the complete rebuild necessary to keep her afloat and around.

Not to mention the fact that in pounding seas, who wants to be worrying about whether their less-than-permanently-adhered-joints-for-ease-of-replacement are going to fail under the hammering they're taking? Not I.

boattruck
03-16-2010, 01:49 AM
Capn Rod, While I agree with the 'build it right, build it strong' theory, where I get off the bus is the fact that the available adhesives will not be likely increase this frame sets strength in any meaningfull way, and will simply piss away a few more hundred bucks in cases of goo, and with all due respect to Peacefull, my impression is that they needs help towards getting this boat done in a good fashion and sailing, rather than making the building process more and more 'belt and suspenders'.
I personally would sleep OK, in a well built, locust framed, copper riveted young boat of a proven design as I would in any other boat of this size I can think of. Any way wishing you and our studious builder the best, Cheers, BT

Peacefuljourney
03-16-2010, 09:26 AM
Hi all,
the sleep did help me get answer like I see ;)

Boattruck is right in what we are looking for. We are live aboard it's been 7 years now, doing in average 4000 to 5000 miles sailing offshore a year. We don't have engine so it is really sailing. We stop to build a boat so we can repair anywhere with tools we can carry aboard and a extra berth for a kid.

After all that talking I feel confident with that. I also looked "Rules and regulations for Yachts and small boat" by Lloyd's register of shipping. On large yachts he also suggest butt joint on sawn frames, in where area needed can be modified to add a clamp (A copper plate on top of the join) holding with at least 3 thru fastening on both side. Which can be a good alternative for frames having a lots of pressure on it (Ballast + rig area).

For those interested our website : http://www.peacefuljourney.ca

Peacefuljourney
03-16-2010, 12:28 PM
Ok I have made a fast checking of that copper thing.
It reinforce a lot the join, and not really expensive or long to do. Should even look good by the inside. The size you see it will be the real dimension of the frames but out of black locust. The small plywood will be copper sheet 1/8.

Sorry for the quality, but I only had my webcam handy :P

http://www.peacefuljourney.ca/frames.jpg