Best Boat for an Aging Couple to go Cruising...

[George.]

...has to be wood, of course. Big enough to be stable and comfortable, small enough to not provoke hernias. Capable of short-handed blue water passages. Inexpensive enough to maintain, to fit into a retirement budget. What are the contenders?

[mmd]

A strip-cold-moulded 35 - to - 40 ft. cruising catamaran...

[George.]

This thread gives extra credit for pictures. :D

[skuthorp]

http://www.canoeslalom.co.uk/images/SPgreens2.jpg
C2

Oh, cruising you said.....................

[mmd]

Sorry, no pics - I haven't designed it yet. <wink>

[JimConlin]

Say more about the budget and the local conditions.

[johngsandusky]

Tahiti Ketch, if you don't mind going slowly.
I find that my ketch (not Tahiti) would seem too large for singlehandin at 39', 16 tons. She is not (too large). While I am just 48, and maybe a bit stronger than many, I find her not hard to handle. Winches for halyards, blocks for sheets, a divided rig, boomed staysail all contribute to ease of handling.
Go for it.

[George.]

Say more about the budget and the local conditions.

Budget: tight.

Local conditions: changing. ;)

[Ian McColgin]

If you're willing to go glass, there are gobs of elderly Tritons and Albergs hidden about, all easy sailing and most well loved. While priced higher than then many many more junky frozen snot things with fin keels, pinched bows and short booms, they are still underpriced for the value and sometimes a badly neglected one will be available for a song, though then you're likely looking a making a new interior - expensive - and mechanicals and sails.

Any CCA inspired sloop or yawl between 30' and 40' will be lovely.

[Roger Long]

What are the contenders?

You are describing my life plan. If anything happened to my 1980 Endeavour 32 that I've owned and sailed since 2005, I would go looking for another one tomorrow.

http://www.rogerlongboats.com/Boat.htm

[George Ray]

This is what we are thinking about.
The picture is Wharram Tiki 46 hull number one.
We have gotten to know the folks (older couple) that commissioned the design, built hull #1 in England and have lived aboard for a number of years. These days they winter in Bahamas and Summer in New England.

They can be found online at: http://wharrambuilders.ning.com/

Their life story:
http://www.tiki46.com/hulls_01.htm
Pics:
http://www.tiki46.com/h1_images.htm

http://www.tiki46.com/PeaceIV.jpg

***********
One of the very few commercial builders of Wharram's in North America:
http://boatsmith.blogspot.com/2009/07/boatsmith-us-wharram-catamaran-builder.html

[sailboy3]

Arthur Ransome's ketch Peter Duck, built as a "sort of maritime bathchair for my old age". This webpage has a couple pictures of it:
http://golden-duck.co.uk/boats-peter-duck/

[hm0316]

If one is on a very tight budget this may rule out new construction and dictate a used boat. How the boat is rigged is as important as its size. A reliable windlass, oversized self tailing winches and lazy jacks would always help. Also, having the boat set up in a simple way so that when a system breaks (they always do) you are not disabled is important. Some of the early fiberglass boats are a good bargain and are often good looking. In addition to the ones already mentioned I would add the full keel version of the Hinckley 41, which is a fiberglass version of the Owens Cutter. I do not care for the later CCA boats which often have a centerboard, unless you are cruising in shallow water. hm0316

[TimH]

Ingrid 38. Available in wood or glass.

[George.]

Pictures, please. Aesthetics matter. The ideal boat, in my opinion, beautifies the cove where it anchors, when seen from the beach or dinghy. A lot of very practical and seamanlike boats are borderline eyesores.

I was thinking along the lines of a Concordia:

http://www.jclass.com/images/gyawlcov.jpg

This print has hung in our home for almost 20 years now...

[Q.Foster]

I vote Concordia.
103 of them were built mid century and have proved their range and durability.
Look at Margo's Concordia website and Newsletter:

http://www.concordiaboats.com/yawl_pics.php

Seaworthy enough for a 600-mile race to Bermuda and fast enough to win too.
Graceful enhancement to any harbor, whether it's a Maine cove or in a yachty harbor like Newport.
Not too dear to buy... some project boats below $30,000.
On the other hand, not cheap to maintain in their accustomed style. Elizabeth Meyer says you should budget $30,000 a year to maintain one in showroom condition.
They are easy and satisfying to sail. Lots of strings to pull when the weather is fine, as your print shows, but easy to snug down with reduced canvas to get home comfortably, jib and jigger.
Very comfortable, even elegant, accommodations for four people.
On mine, I can douse the mainsail alone, and raise the anchor without a fuss when I need to, and trim the jib while steering with the tiller... and I'm an old woman approaching 60.

They are as pretty as a Fife, and as handy as a Vertue. Nicely built by Abeking & Rasmussen of mahogany, oak, spruce and locust. The perfect classic!

Q.

[TimH]

Thats a nice print. Who is the artist?

[George.]

On the other hand, not cheap to maintain in their accustomed style. Elizabeth Meyer says you should budget $30,000 a year to maintain one in showroom condition.


That's a heap of money. I assume it means paying people to do just about everything, from varnishing to masthead work.

[sailboy3]

Read Weston Martyr's The £200 millionaire

[Henning 4148]

Maurice Griffith "Golden Hind" in plywood.

Not for taking around the cans ... but for everything else. There's a 31 ft and a 34 ft.

These guys can help http://www.eventideowners.org.uk/

[JimConlin]

That's a heap of money. I assume it means paying people to do just about everything, from varnishing to masthead work.
While one of Man's most beautiful creations, Concordia yawls are complex boats with high-maintenance materials and finishes. They are not very robustly built. The amount of work necessary to keep one is probably more than a single amateur could keep up with, particularly a senior amateur.
Concordias bring anywhere from $30K to nearly ten times that and the difference in the prices reflects the cost of restoration.

[TomF]

George, I thought you owned the boat that fits your design spec already. You're finding Dalia perhaps too big for the down-scaled non-chartering future life you describe?

[TimH]

http://home.centurytel.net/Ingrid38/Tumbleweed.JPG

[Mike Vogdes]

A wooden (composite) Flicka.
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&id=1975162&lang=en&slim=quick&
Although I would much rather have a glass one..

[rbgarr]

Cy Hamlin's Elderyacht 30. Designed for an older couple (himself and his wife :D)

[George Ray]

Catamarans, some sharpies:
Most boats spend the majority of their lives sitting at A or B rather than traveling between A and B. The cost of keeping a deep draft vessel that can not be allowed to sit on the bottom when the tide goes out is an order of magnitude greater than 'shallow' and 'sits upright'. To make it worse the best cruising anchorages that are near the amenities that most folks like to be fairly close to, are being gobbled up with expensive resorts, marinas, mooring fields etc. The shallows are the only affordable places left.
There are several reasons we are leaning towards a wharram catamaran. The wharram designs are home builder friendly, economical to build and lo-tech so as to be repairable anywhere in the world. The wharram's typically have only a small pod on the main deck for storage and for the crew on watch. This allows a large flat deck area between the hulls and often a large ramp that can be lowered to allow wonderful easy access to the water for swimming, diving, and dingy access. The trade off is minimal windage and lots of nice deck space against having to brave the weather when moving between spaces. At anchor canvas covers/shelters makes it much easier to move on deck between spaces.
We really like the fancy Chris White cats such as the Atlantic 42' with center cockpit and rear pilot house and rocket ship performance. However, they are so pricey, hi-tech and they are not quite as bullet proof on the underbody in terms of running gear and rudders if one ever bounced/pounded on a bunch of hard stuff. New Atlantic 42' would probably be about $750K-USD compared to new Wharram Tiki 46' at about $250K-USD, turn key professionally built.

Points to consider:
(1) Shallow draft:
Some of the most interesting places to poke about are shallow. When a storm hiding hole is needed or when a mooring is needed for long term living/storage the possibilities are greatly expanded.

(2) Sit upright when the tide goes out:
Run aground, .... need to work on the bottom and don;t want to pay for a $500 haul out, need long term storage ..... the possibilities are greatly expanded.

(3) Place to get away:
Want to be alone for a bit. Want some peace and quiet while the others make noise doing what ever. Want to have guests and not be jammed up tight with them 7x24.

(4) Place to spread out:
Monohulls barely have a spot to spread out a small sail to do a repair or to sunbathe or to set up the dingy to paint the bottom, to have a picnic on deck and lounge about.

(5) Floats:
Right side up, Up side down, Holes in the bottom, ..... just wants to float!

(6) Speedy off the wind:
200+ mile days not uncommon

http://www.tiki46.com/DSCF0014.jpg

[Paul Pless]

...has to be wood, of course. Big enough to be stable and comfortable, small enough to not provoke hernias. Capable of short-handed blue water passages. Inexpensive enough to maintain, to fit into a retirement budget. What are the contenders?


Pictures, please. Aesthetics matter. The ideal boat, in my opinion, beautifies the cove where it anchors, when seen from the beach or dinghy.

Ain't she pretty, and she's for sale too. Well, you didn't mention what type of cruising so I figured motorsailing was an option.

http://www.dhylanboats.com/images/grayling_under_way.jpg

[Paul Pless]

Then you could hang this over your mantel.

http://www.buckleysmith.com/images/thumbs/grayling_thmb.jpg

[John B]

There's no single right answer because everyone has a different view on the aesthetics component. One option you could investigate is the type from the other end of that CCA era from the Concordia.. pre or maybe early IOR types like Sparkman and Stevens or C and C around the 40 ft mark. Superb sea hulls , mainsails that aren't too intimidating in a breeze, quick in hull speed terms,typically not budget breakers. I know a few people who've cruised the general type and they're invariably happy with them.

[Woxbox]

The previous owners of our 35-foot catamaran were a reitired couple in their 70s. They cruised often because the boat is so comfortable and livable. They had two cats who always went along and never came to any harm. After they sold the sailboat, they bought a power catamaran for the same reasons. If it's going to be your house most or all of the time, it means a lot to have a stable platform with excellent ventilation and views all around. There are a few good trimarans out there that fill this bill, and they're generally cheaper than the cats. But the cats are hard to beat as livaboards. But realisticly you'll want a budget of over $100,000 US, and that would be for a smaller, older boat that needs work. Over $150,000 you'll start to find something that's ready to go.

[GregW]

...has to be wood, of course. Big enough to be stable and comfortable, small enough to not provoke hernias. Capable of short-handed blue water passages. Inexpensive enough to maintain, to fit into a retirement budget. What are the contenders?

This one fits all your requirements. Reuel Parker's 39 foot junk rigged plywood sharpie. I'm thinking that in Brazil you could probably put her in the water for less than $50,000.

http://www.parker-marine.com/sh391.jpg

[ian scott]

A strip-cold-moulded 35 - to - 40 ft. cruising catamaran...

Most sizable catamarans that I know of would need a substantial retirement budget. At least to initially build or purchase.

I am interested in your thoughts on one though M.M.

[PeterSibley]

http://www.tiki46.com/DSCF0014.jpg

I think that this might well be the answer for those who want to sail in sunny climes , not for the sleet and snow , but cheap and utiliarian .I very much like Wharrams .


But lacking the Edwardian feel that I enjoy !

[George.]

George, I thought you owned the boat that fits your design spec already. You're finding Dalia perhaps too big for the down-scaled non-chartering future life you describe?

Something like that. We are re-doing the varnish, and signing an agreement with Baum & Koenig. It's time to downsize, and trade a nice big boat for a nice smaller one and some freedom.

[marshcat]

I agree with a catamaran for a golden age cruising platform. Each November my FIL sailed (motor sailed) his 32ft cat from Virginia down the Intercoastal, across to the Bahamas and down to Georgetown. He returned in March of each year. In addition to the reasons already mentioned, his guests liked it because of the lack of heeling. He did this for ten consecutive years, from the time he was 66 until around age 76.

The bridge deck banged alot in short swells, but the shallow draft meant he could stay inside during rough weather and pick his way down the islands (once in the Bahamas). He just had to pick his weather windows well, which is no problem when you are not on a schedule. The boat hads plenty of room for visitors (including grandkids), or just to spread out, but was easily single handed.

I liked it because I got to fly down to Miami for a few trips and help him take it across the Gulfstream and down to Georgetown.

He sold it to a guy who was a diver, and his wife was in a wheelchair. The guy wanted it for a dive platform, and because there was plenty of room in the cockpit so his wife could sail with him.

[John B]

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/Waione_photos/sailing%2009%2010%20season/IMG_4494_7.jpg

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd48/Waione_photos/sailing%2009%2010%20season/IMG_4496_8.jpg

[George.]

Too much varnish to maintain, John... maybe in white or dark blue. :D

[TimH]

Great quote!

"If a man must be obsessed by something, I suppose a boat is as good as anything, perhaps a bit better than most. A small sailing craft is not only beautiful, it is seductive and full of strange promise and the hint of trouble. If it happens to be an auxiliary cruising boat, it is without question the most compact and ingenious arrangement for living ever devised by the restless mind of man--a home that is stable without being stationary, shaped less like a box than like a fish or a girl, and in which the homeowner can remove his daily affairs as far from shore as he has the nerve to take them, close hauled or running free--parlor, bedroom, and bath, suspended and alive."

E.B. White



You are describing my life plan. If anything happened to my 1980 Endeavour 32 that I've owned and sailed since 2005, I would go looking for another one tomorrow.

http://www.rogerlongboats.com/Boat.htm

[rbgarr]

Not wood, not cheap, but shallow draft, capable and roomy: http://shenandoahyacht.info/

[JimConlin]

Dave, What a wonderful boat! If it's sound, it's a bargain.

[George Ray]

We have talked about moving to the Bahamas where we were offered work together. If we needed a quick house we would probably get one of these:
34' Gemini that draws 18" and has centerboards. Diesel with long outdrive.
Long history and big used market.

http://www.performancecruising.com/gemini-105mc
http://my.catamarans.com/documents/boats/a0060000005cEpEAAU/Images/Exterior.jpg
http://my.catamarans.com/documents/boats/a0060000005cEpEAAU/Images/Cabin.jpg
http://my.catamarans.com/documents/boats/a0060000005cEpEAAU/Images/Coclpit.jpg

[PeterSibley]

Palatial ! and in the right conditions , a very good choice .

[JimConlin]

This one (http://www.dicknewick.com/WhiteWings.html) is for sale. It's even mostly wood!

http://www.dicknewick.com/Web_art/WhtWings.jpg

[frank pedersen]

Low budget proposal:

(1) Sail a Rozinante or Paul Gartside's 27 ft. Canoe Cruiser, Design # 102.

(2) Live in an area like the vicinity of Eggemoggin Reach where there are at least 150 attractive destinations within a 25 mile radius of your mooring.

(3) Make your "cruises" overnight or 2-night undertakings.

If you are 70 yrs. old now and complete - say - 15 cruises to a different destination each season, I guarantee you will not remember anything about earlier trips when you have to repeat the process.

Frank

[Woxbox]

If this White Wings is in decent shape at all, it's a steal. Is it the same you mentioned, Jim? From nemasail.org.


36' NEWICK TRIMARAN KETCH, WHITE WINGS Superbly built by David Nutt, Southport, ME in 1988, Two very caring owners. The first one solo cruised her from Florida to the Azores at age 73. Present owner day sails out of Edgartown. Remarkably comfortable cruising two or days ailing six. Minimum effort sailing with a Ljungstrom mainsail, reefed and furled from the cockpit. Carbon masts, good sails and inventory, recent LP paint. $75,000.

[JimConlin]

If this White Wings is in decent shape at all, it's a steal. Is it the same you mentioned, Jim? From nemasail.org.
Same boat.
The designer arrived on White Wings at the WB show in 2008. We followed them through the bridge on Damfino.
I've sailed on it and it is very well made . I have not been aboard for several years. I expect it needs some touch-ups and a weight loss program.
Knowing the cost of building the smaller, sportier sister ship, it sounds quite reasonably priced.

[marshcat]

We have talked about moving to the Bahamas where we were offered work together. If we needed a quick house we would probably get one of these:
34' Gemini that draws 18" and has centerboards. Diesel with long outdrive.

A Gemini (but a 32 ft) was the boat my FIL had that I referred to in my earlier post! It was just like this (built around 1990):
http://www.sailingtexas.com/picgemini32100a.jpg
I was sort of afraid to mention it, because it is glass, and maybe not that appealing to some. The builder is near Annapolis, so there are a bunch on the East Coast. I think the new ones have steps/swim platforms on the transoms.

He had a Yanmar outboard diesel on his. The boat did great for 10 years. The only problem I recall was the helm gear breaking a tooth, which eventually locked up the steering before we figured out the problem (as more teeth broke). We were in No Name Harbor getting ready to cross, so luckily I was able to scrounge another helm gearbox from a marina in Miami. Those rudders banged at anchor, so he would lash them together with a shockcord harness.

[CapnJ2ds]

Too much varnish to maintain, John... maybe in white or dark blue. :D

I tried that "too much varnish" line on the couple who own that boat. They reckon it's not all that hard to maintain, and they've been sailing and racing her round the world for (I think ) over 20 years.

[Tom3]

My boat comes to mind because it is easy to manage and I can see little aging that will make it difficult to sail for my wife and I even as we get quite a bit older.

It's easy to sail, comfortable and ample for two for extended periods.

As far as maintenance, I manage to fit most of what our boat needs myself on a part time basis. These Alden Challengers were built during the transition to glass hulls.

http://949.reno2.com/download/file.php?id=156&mode=viewA glass hull and deck, the rest in wood. They're either the best of each, or the worst of both,... depending on what needs attention.

[George.]

Now we are talking! I am sorry, I have tried to like catamarans, I had a lot of fun with Hobies in my youth, but if I wanted to not go well to windward I'd get a schooner. :D

How do you like the yawl rig, Tom? Pros, cons of short-handing it? Is the extra stick worth it (other than for the splendid looks, of course)?

[Tom3]

How do you like the yawl rig, Tom? Pros, cons of short-handing it? Is the extra stick worth it (other than for the splendid looks, of course)?

I'm a hopeless sail tweaker. While the mizzen is small, I can feel the sail adding some power on a reach. Telltales help to see when the extra roach is drawing.

Plus we have a nice little 3/4 oz mizzen staysail that's so easy to use, we use it alot. However, it's a mysterious sail and just about when I'm ready to call it worthless, I find the right conditions where it easily adds a knot on a reach!

I do keep the mizzen up while dousing and raising the main, it definitely helps keep the bow into the wind a bit. I'll use it at anchor in some conditions as an air rudder. I also believe when our main is reefed, the mizzen can help even going to windward.

Jib and jigger, it helps a bit but not nearly as much as a ketch of course. However on a reach in a good breeze with the jib furled down, we use it alot and it's a very comfortable easy sail combination.

The little mizzen mast is out of the cockpit so it doesn't get in the way. Plus, with a helper for a few minutes, it's easy to step and un step at the docks ourselves.

[JimConlin]

We cruised in this Alberg 35 for 25 years. A good boat. They are a bargain in today's market.

http://72.230.216.155/Alberg35/Projects/MagicTour/Magic01.JPEG

[Tom3]

A sister ship to Finessterre, Carleton Mithchells S&S design that had a lot to do with starting this group of boats, FIDELIO is a beauty .

I think this class of boats, 35 o 40 feet designed in the 50's and 60's, are particularly well suited for a couple as a retirement boat. And as mentioned, many are a good value right now.

In Arthur Beisers Proper Yacht he detailed what he liked about the Alden Challenger. In a nutshell, he found the boat to be the ample size to be a great sailboat. A,... "the glass is full", size of boat.

After 10 years of sailing ours, I now fully understand what he was talking about. Most of these boats, while designed with some racing in mind, have the basics of a good boat.

An ample large comfortable cockpit, wide decks all around. A tried and tested basic layout below of a more than an adequate galley and navigation area surrounded by large storage all around, including big deep cockpit lockers.

Midships, most simply have two settees, and one or two (which we have) pilots outboard. All good full berths. With a settee pulled out to a deep seat, we find our saloon decadent for two, still with good passage through the cabin.

Added to that, usually a large comfortable forward cabin with good storage, standing headroom to change, and a comfortable head compartment. There's room for plenty of hatches and wonderful ventilation all around.

It's not that this design is remarkable, only that it seems to fully utilize the available space without feeling anything was shoe horned into it.

In between all these basic design "elements", there is ample space left over for storage lockers with counters on top, book shelves, and other nice features that make life aboard so nice, especially for two. Drawers and cabinets abound below in our boat.

So here is FIDELIO, a boat I much admire in my local harbor. I'm more married to this design era than the hull material, so I'd be happy with either this or my boat.

This S&S design has the distinction in my eye, of looking like it's moving, even tied to the dock.

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_ASREr4k7ZNQ/SPuiKZk7hWI/AAAAAAAAADI/CnVpDUa4xwc/s720/Fidelio%20dock2.jpg

[peter radclyffe]

Immagine:
http://forum.amicidellavela.it/uploaded/sonmì/2010220234638_Le_Vivier_sur_Mer_2.jpg

[Dave Thibodeau]

Stay home and save your money

[john l]

i've always like "white wings". if i hit the lottery before it's sold, it will be mine.