Help me design a camping boat

[Bruce Taylor]

I'm a long way from receiving authorization to build Eun Mara.

However, if I play my cards right I might get clearance for an ultralight camp cruiser next summer.

My first thought was to build another sailing canoe. I've been gathering lines & offsets for Victorian-era cruising canoes. I'm drawn to Vesper, Notus, Vagabond, and a few other designs from W.P. Stephens & Forest & Stream (thanks to Craig O'D and Dan Miller for making these available). I've been lofting them in miniature, 1 1/2" to the foot, to get a feel for the hulls.

However, I'm also thinking of designing something new.

What I have in mind is an ultralight sailer that can be easily cartopped, portaged if necessary, with capacity for two humans and a week's worth of camping gear.

The nearest equivalent would be Redmond's Whisp, I suppose. However, the plans for Whisp are no longer available. Also, I am told that it is a skittish and tender boat (though fast).

That said, a planing hull would be nice -- provided such a thing could be made sufficiently burdensome to carry the loads I have in mind.

The obvious construction method would be frameless lap-ply.

Any thoughts?

[Alan D. Hyde]

Why not adapt a hull form like that of the Highlander???

http://www.sailhighlander.org/pictures/97.jpg

http://www.sailhighlander.org/pictures/crede.jpg

Here's a brief quote from their site:

The Highlander

The Highlander is a great sailboat to learn on. Its performance characteristics will allow you to quickly acquire sound sailing skills. The Highlander handles like a dream. Quick to pick up speed, your Highlander will respond smoothly and predictably to changes in tiller position and sail trim. Its design makes it difficult to capsize.

For daysailing, the Highlander's 20' length provides an enormous cockpit with plenty of room to store coolers and other gear. It can fit many people, but can be sailed by as few as two.

The Highlander is a big boat where it counts most... inside! The cockpit has two 9' seats, one on each side. The seats are 42" apart, so you won't be banging knees with the person on the other side. You'll be impressed with the Highlander's stability and comfort as soon as you step aboard.

(End quote)

Not a bad place to start, it seems to me...

www.sailhighlander.org (http://www.sailhighlander.org)

Alan

[ 09-05-2002, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[Ian McColgin]

I think you have irreconsilable demands - planing but burdensom and light enough to car top ? ? ?

Whisp was never a planing boat but I guess she was a nice enough sailer when light and could be loaded down and perhaps rowed up wind. . .

Maybe a heavier existing hull - like the Highlander or Thistle or something - while a bit hefty for car topping would be good on a light trailor and give you the gusto you want.

G'luck

[Bruce Taylor]

I think you have irreconsilable demands - planing but burdensom and light enough to car topO.K., then...scratch the planing hull. Some of the later sailing canoes (circa 1900) were designed to plane (or "skid" as they used to say). These were primarily racing machines, though, and possibly unfit for any kind of cruising. I'll dig up some lines to post.

I'd assumed Whisp wd. get up on plane, but evidently I'm mistaken.

The Highlander and Thistle are so far from the kind of boat I have in mind that I think I'd better list some indispensable elements.

1) Weight below 80 lbs, stripped down (a weighted centerboard is fine, if removeable).

2) Easily pulled rig, as in a sailing canoe from the golden era.

3) Beam ~4', or less

4) LOA ~16' (less, if it can be done; but certainly no more than 18')

You see now why I'm thinking of Whisp (it fulfills most of my requirements, no?). As Tom Hill tells it, Redmond "borrowed from the canoe" in designing Whisp. I can think of no other existing hull that has quite the same characteristics (which accounts, no doubt, for the fact that the design continues to attract so much interest).

[ 09-05-2002, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[Alan D. Hyde]

OK, Bruce, shifting gears, a friend built a doped canvas canoe when we were kids--- chines, rails, stem, keel, a few frames, light floorboards and seats.

It didn't weigh 50 pounds dripping wet.

He still has it. A few rips and tears have been patched over the years, but it still works well.

Never rigged it for sailing, though.

I don't see why such a boat couldn't be, though, if equipped with leeboards, and perhaps with a bracket on which to rest a paddle for steering purposes.

Alan

[ 09-05-2002, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Alan D. Hyde ]

[Bruce Taylor]

Now we're on the same page, Alan!

Open canoes can sail well, when rigged w/ leeboards (see Todd Bradshaw's excellent Canoe Rig). However, the open canoe is designed for paddling. What I have in mind is a dedicated sailer -- a skiff-like transom boat, most likely.

On the subject of "planing" sailing canoes, here's W.P. Stephens writing about the sharpie-hulled Shadow (a weighty Canoe yawl) and Rushton's Torpedo (a much lighter round-bottomed boat):

"By a peculiar adjustment of the surplus buoyancy and the displacement of the Oxford yawls have the faculty to a greater or less degree of 'skidding' over the water, and not 'wallowing' 'in it as most boats do. The same faculty has been attained even in the round-bodied boats, such as Wisp and Torpedo."

Here are Shadow's lines:

http://www.interlog.com/~timgitt/hist/dsc_m/shadow_yawl_body_plan.gif

http://www.interlog.com/~timgitt/hist/dsc_m/shadow_yawl_sheer_deck.gif

[Greg H]

Have a look at some of these:
In particular, Linnet and Bee.
http://www.imagic.demon.co.uk/openboat/boats.html

[Wayne Jeffers]

Bruce,

You're now describing Whisp, all right. IIRC, it was 16', 68 pounds, and 3.5' beam, with an unstayed mast.

I find it most curious that the plans continue to be unavailable, given the obvious demand.

There's no great secret to the Whisp design, so far as I can tell. A simple flattie skiff made of quarter-inch plywood, with one lap in the sides (sides assembled on the garage floor prior to mounting), simple unstayed sprit rig, leeboard. Something like this could be "reverse engineered," though perhaps not so elegantly as the original.

Wayne

PS You mention "dedicated sailer." I believe Whisp was a rowing boat, first and foremost, that also sailed quite well from all accounts.

[ 09-05-2002, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: Wayne Jeffers ]

[Bruce Taylor]

Thanks, Greg. Linnet is interesting (don't care for the reverse sheer on bee), though 47kg is a bit heavier than I'd like. I've printed out the article & I'll go over it later.

Wayne, "reverse engineering" Whisp is roughly what I had in mind (perhaps w/ a nod to the old Sharpie-canoes). I was thinking a removeable weighted CB would partly make up for the lightness of the hull.

[garland reese]

After re reading the requirements, I thought of this one here....... It will be hard to find a boat with capacity for two plus a week's gear, within the type and weight restrictions that you show above. I wonder if Michael could help you increase the beam a bit on Beth?
Michael Storer Boats- Beth canoe yawl (http://www.storerboatplans.bigstep.com/)

There are some great looking wherries here Bruce. these duck trap designs are kinda sorta similar to the Wisp, only different :D :rolleyes: . Anyway...they can be built glued lap to save quite a bit of weight.
web page (http://www.duck-trap.com/dtwplans.html)

Have you looked at Lillie from Selway-Fisher?
selwayfisher (http://www.selway-fisher.com)
in the dayboats/double enders section. There is Lillie and also the Casco Bay 16 footer is a fine little canoe yawl.......heavier than what you describe, but very much in the fashion of the canoe yawls of the late 1800's.

You may also be able to turn a Melonseed or Seabright skiff into a nice little camp boat. The melonseed sails very capably and should row well too.

[ 09-05-2002, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: garland reese ]

[htom]

Joel White's Shearwater, although she'd be a bit heavier than you want.

[reddog]

Bruce;
This may be too far out of the box but how's about a proa rigged sailing canoe?Speed,stability,fairly good carrying capacity and not too heavy.The proa could be adapted to many of the canoe designs available.
Just a thought.
Earl

[bainbridgeisland]

You have two severe problems to overcome. First is the weight limitation for car topping. Second is the capacity needed for one week of camping.

I would choose a maximum car-topping weight and let this be the maximum hull weight. This will drive the scantlings, skin thickness, stiffener spacing and so forth.

You need an accurate weight estimate for two people, camping gear and supplies for a week. This added to the hull weight plus rigging, oars anchor and so on will give your loaded displacement.

Next choose a reasonable displacement length ratio to give good performance. In this way you can obtain the length of the boat. You can now adjust the scantlings to meet the car top weight desired. This requires an accurate weight estimate.

Choose a reasonable sail area to displacement ratio for the fully loaded boat. Since you know the displacement you can figure how much sail.

You will probably need to cycle through these steps a few times to optimize the boat (This is called a design spiral.)

You may find you will be able to have a planing boat when not loaded down with camping gear and yet still have a nice sailboat with camping gear, though not able to plane.

By the way, you probably know this already but Uffa Fox designed a cruising version of a ten square meter canoe. I think it was about 20’ long and weighed 150 pounds, but I am not sure of this. The boat had twin sliding seats and a cabin big enough for one person to get out of the weather. It was extremely fast yet he used to take the boat cruising across the English Channel.

This ties into some other threads on the forum because a few years later Sopranino (19’x6’) was built to improve on Uffa’s canoe. This boat crossed the Atlantic Ocean causing great excitement in Europe and North America leading to the beginning of the Junior Offshore Group (JOG) class in England, the Midget Ocean Racing Club (MORC) and Midget Ocean Racing Association (MORA) in North America. Most cruiser-racer boats under 30’ today owe their existence to these racing classes.

[Bruce Taylor]

Garland -- Interesting links. I remember looking at Beth a couple of years ago. She sounds like a hoot & has the sort of flat, rockered bottom I was envisioning. The box hull just isn't for me, though. If I were to do another sailing canoe, I'd probably revive a late Victorian design like Isalo or Shadow. In any case, Beth's 250 lb capacity would need to be at least doubled...awkward, I think.

htom -- Shearwater's a lovely boat, but reportedly not a cartopper (weight is ~120 lbs as I recall ... can't remember beam).

Earl -- Someday I'll start hankering for a proa (it seems to happen, eventually, to anyone with an interest in sailing canoes). Right now, though, I have an odd urge to design a monohull.

Bainbridgeisland -- I started playing with numbers this evening, calculating plausible displacements, midship sections, speed-length ratios etc. (with the help of John Teale's Designing Small Craft and Dave Gerr's The Nature of Boats). I'm still far from knowing what I'm up to, but I'm enjoying the exercise.

A semi-planing hull is precisely what I was hoping for -- something that might pull itself onto plane when lightly loaded, but wd. cruise as a displacement boat -- which means, I suppose, sufficient freeboard to carry a load not much smaller than could be piled into, say, a 16 ft. Prospector.

I've looked at Uffa Fox's sailing canoes, but I don't recall seeing a yawl with cabin (at only 150 lbs!). I'll go dig around on the net and see if I can find it.

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone. Ideas about rig and fittings wd. be more than welcome, too.

[ 09-05-2002, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[Greg H]

Tall order Bruce.
From our forumites page:
http://www.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/canoe_mirror/solway_11ft.gif
Solway Dory
Offers 5 sailing canoe plans ranging from 11' to 16'. Stitch-and-glue.
Angerton, Kirkbride, Carlisle, UK CA5 5HX
Smallest Solway Dory canoe:

[Jack C]

For small cruising dinghies, it's best to go to the experts: the Brits. Check out http://www.btinternet.com/~w.serjeant/
and
http://home.clara.net/gmatkin/design.htm

I, too, am skeptical that you can get a ultralight planing cartopper cruiser for two, but I'm not going to stop you.

Good luck.

Jack

[Dave Hadfield]

Bruce, are you going to be portaging this boat? Will portaging be frequent? Are you planning river systems, or instead big northern lakes in Quebec where you might just have to lift once to get into the system? Will you ever sleep in the boat?

You might build a boat that'll plane when light, sure, but not with 2 people and 2 weeks worth of stuff, not and stay under 80lbs.

The simplest solution that strikes me, leaving out planing and susbstituting paddling for rowing is 2 canoes linked by a catamaran rig. This is the ultimate "take-down". I wouldn't sail in big seas in a storm in one, but then again you could make them largely decked, or equipped with spray covers. The rig itself can be engineered to take a leeboard and a "steerboard". You can build it to sail from one of the canoes, or from the center of the rig. The canoes don't have to be the same size. One can function as a glorified outrigger.

I've done this. It works. I travelled down the Bloodvein river for 2 weeks once, mostly rigged this way. We even ran some minor rapids linked up. And if the portage trail is wide it can be portaged entire. However I didn't have it rigged for upwind sailing. We used a tarp various ways and used the wind as an assist.

This solution also gives you 2 canoes, which you might like to have for other uses.

If I was building this unit in a shop environment rather than the bush there are a number of improvements that I would make.

As for hulls, you could use existing canoes or build 2 simple plywood shells like the 6-Hour Canoe, made, perhaps, a little more burdensome.

I just built a "6-Hour Canoe"-style hull, of Prospector dimensions (36" beam, 29" across the chine, 14" deep), using offsets from the Plyboats design program and I'm quite pleased with it. Cheap and simple.

You don't want it to be made of sheet plywood? I was going to suggest Jim Michalak's designs. Worth a look, I think.

One way to get around the 80lb portage limit is to build a little take-down dolly to help you wheel it around. Still, you've got to get it up onto the car roof, hence the catarmaran idea.

If you really want a monohull, it shouldn't be too hard. Get Ted Moore's book CanoeCraft. Look at his Prospector canoe. You could build a boat that was this canoe for the front half, and expand the back half into a transom boat of whatever shape you like. You could also stretch it to 17'. You could give it a wine-glass stern, or a more cut-off stern that might have a planing unfluence. You'd want the center a bit wider, of course, for stability and to hold out your oars.

One nice thing about this method is that once the strongback is made and the molds are set up, you can keep changing things around (widths, spacings and rocker) until you like what you see. There is enough structure to visualize the final hull. Only when it matches the mind's eye do you have to start building.

Strip planking is also a good way to keep it light and strong.

Good luck.

[Dave Hadfield]

That Solway Dory looks a bit tippy to me. Not much intitial form stability there.

[Ian McColgin]

The Soloway has probably a bit less ultimate stability than my chamberlain gunning dory Leeward, but it's still going to have great ultimate stability. The type has little initial stability, especially if light, but who cares?

Another whacked out stray thought. If you want some burden but must portage and if the portages are on reasonably firm ground, perhaps a variation on the 'wheelbarrow skiff' by Pete Culler - essentially a round centerboard.

G'luck

[Bert Langley]

Have you considered the wineglass wherry from Pygmy boats http://www.pygmyboats.com/WGWSPECS.HTM?

Primarly a rowing boat that seems to sail pretty well. However, like others have said when you add in wanting to carry enough gear for two people for a week it gets real hard to meet the requirements of light weight and fast sailing. What types of trips do you envision?

Another possibility is Arch Davis' Penobscott 17. Again a rowing baot that sails pretty well. Weight though goes up quickly as you try to get enough room for two.

[Tomcat]

I have unused Whisp plans, and will sell for $100. Comes with seperate article on how to build fast (sides as flat lap panels), from Small Boat Journal.

proaconstrictor@yahoo.com

[Bruce Taylor]

Bruce, are you going to be portaging this boat? Will portaging be frequent? Are you planning river systems, or instead big northern lakes in Quebec where you might just have to lift once to get into the system?Big lakes, infrequent portages.

I love river paddling, and the small connected lake systems of the shield (in La Verendrye, Algonquin, the James Bay basin, etc). However, I've never enjoyed paddling across large lakes, and we some good ones, up here (the Basketong, Poisson Blanc, Trente et une Milles, etc.) I have a notion I'd like to explore them under sail.


Will you ever sleep in the boat?Nope.

As for the planing hull...I'm sorry I mentioned it. Semi-planing capability wd. be nice, but is not indispensable.

I should mention that my Piccolo sailing-canoe -- which is built in the traditional way, with steamed frames and multiple thwarts, happily carries 400 lbs in human flesh and cargo and weighs just a bit over 50 lbs w/out the rig. I see no reason why a somewhat longer, more burdensome hull (something that could safely displace, say, 700 lbs) couldn't be built in frameless lap-ply under 80 lbs.

Dave, the dolly could buy me an extra thirty or forty pounds, if I need it...but I do want this boat to be noticeably easier to cartop than my Sunfish (which, at 130 lbs, is no fun to hoist onto a roof rack).

[Bruce Taylor]

Greg, Jack, Bert -- Thanks for the links. I'll go over them this evening.

Tomcat -- Thanks. I might have a source of some Whisp plans, but if it falls through I'll contact you.

Ian -- That wheelbarrow CB sounds like fun. I do fancy the thought of a built-in dolly. Thoreau's batteau had wheels, as I recall.

[Don Maurer]

How about something like a CLC Millcreek16.5 with a sailing rig? Very stable, cartop-able and can hold a substantial amount of gear, if access ports are put in the amas.
http://www.clcboats.com/

[ 09-06-2002, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: Don Maurer ]

[Rancocas]

In 1882-83 a man named Charles A. Neide made a voyage of approximately 3,300 miles from Lake George, New York to Pensacola, Florida in a Rushton "Princess" model sailing canoe.
A Rushton "Princess" model, this one named "Diana", is on display at the Adirondack Museum at Blue Mountain Lake, New York.
The table of offsets, and a line drawing of this boat can be found in the book "Rushton's Rowboats and Canoes".
I think this is a really beautiful little canoe. It is 14' 2" overall. It can be sailed as a two masted yawl, or just with a single sail. It uses a dagger board instead of leeboards.
Contact the museum for more information.

[bainbridgeisland]

Bruce, why are you limiting yourself to 80 pounds? Technique will allow a 120 pound boat to be loaded by people of average strength. Here is how:

1) Park the car one and a half boat lengths from the water.

2) Lay a wet towel on the ground a bit less than on boat length from the car.

3) Pull one end of the boat out of the water and set it on the towel.

4) Pick up the other end of the boat and pivot it about the towel until you can set the end on the roof rack. The boat now has one end on the towel and one end on the rack.

5) Pick up the towel end of the boat and slide it onto the rack.

I used this method for years without any problems. A carefully built, 120 lb boat can be 15 feet long or so. Thus performance and speed can be outstanding.

[Bruce Taylor]

Rancocas -- By chance, I've just been reading Neide's The Canoe Aurora: from the Adirondacks to the Gulf. It's a delightful book. The prose is appealingly dry -- less ornamental than the writing in yr. typical Victorian cruise narrative. It's available online, through the Canoe Resources posted on Craig O'Donnell's Cheap Pages.

I'm sure I'll build a decked canoe like Princess or Vesper one of these days. However, I'm aiming for a boat that can carry two passengers, in something approaching the comfort of a typical open canoe.

Bainbridgeisland --


Bruce, why are you limiting yourself to 80 pounds?Only because I think it can be done & I think I'd enjoy noodling away the winter trying to meet the challenge.

80 lbs is not such an unattainable ideal, is it? An open canoe of that weight would be unusually heavy. Whisp is 16 ft. long, and reportedly tips the scales at 68 lbs. Couldn't I add a bit of freeboard to a skiff like Whisp and come in under 80 lbs.? Or, to come at it from the other direction, hybridize the Canadian canoe w/ a sharpie hull, and perhaps add a weighted CB (to compensate for limited beam)?

Thanks for the cartopping tips, btw. I'll give it a try, next I time I need to hoist a Laser or Sunfish onto my sagging roofracks.

[ 09-07-2002, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[bainbridgeisland]

Bruce, certainly a 16 or 18 foot boat can be built at 80 lbs. But you said you want performance and capacity.

A sailing dinghy that performs well must have good torsional rigidity. What happens is that the crew hikes out one direction while the sail tries to twist the boat in the opposite direction. Torsional rigidity is something that an open boat can only obtain by increasing the scantlings and therefore the weight. You can actually break an open boat, rip the chines or rub rail apart, if you have insufficient torsional rigidity.

Capacity to carry weight directly influences the scantlings as well. A camper cruiser, able to stay out for a week, needs at least 550 pound capacity assuming you pack really light. This combined with the additional beam needed to carry sail, compared to a canoe, adds bending loads to the hull. The larger hull panels are also more susceptible to failure from bending. Thus, again, scantlings must be increased to produce a durable hull.

Also, the faster a boat goes, the stronger the hull must be to resist hydrodynamic loads. This additional strength is in proportion to the speed squared. Thus a 10 knot sailboat must be four times stronger than a 5 knot canoe. Again the scantlings must be increased for the boat to be strong enough.

To stay with your 80 pound goal, you must limit torsional loads by reducing beam below optimum. Thus your power to carry sail is reduced and performance is degraded. Still the boat must be stronger than a canoe, if higher speeds are expected, for example sailing down wind in a blow. We have come full circle here, back to an overweight canoe. It will have the capacity you want but not the speed.

[sseay]

Wisp owner here. I'm not an expierenced sailer and have managed to scare myself silly in gusty winds. She ghosts along beautifully in lite aires. My wife found sailing with me less than comfortable (something about being politely asked to shift her butt). So now I sail alone and never load the boat down, 150lbs max.The wisp does pound nicely. One time sailing downwind I had to let the sail fly because I couldn't let the leeboard up before shipping a lot of water. Under oars she is a dream, almost as good as my adirondack guideboat. I have heavily loaded and camped with the guideboat a lot and would recommend it as THE boat for that.You could portage the Wisp, but cripes thats a painful kind of fun. I got into boats and out from under backpacks for that reason(and dehydrated beer hadn't been invented) I wonder how the Wisp would sail heavily loaded?
I'm looking at the Penobscot 17 for day sailing comfort for four adults, Wife being one. It's not car-top-able.
Not very helpful,but
Steve

[Bruce Taylor]

Thanks for giving the benefit of your expertise, BBI. I really appreciate your patience w/ an eager amateur.

Scantlings -- Having no firsthand experience w/ "ultralight" lap. ply., I was planning to simply adapt scantlings from similar designs -- though the scarcity of "similar designs" does give me pause. The designs I've been regarding as "comparable" are mostly 3-4 kt hulls, like Oughtred's saling canoes. I hadn't given any thought to the stresses a higher hull speed (and the rig to drive it) wd. place on the design.

Evidently, I have some thinking -- and research --to do.

As for sail-carrying ability vs. torsional rigidity...can I not compensate for reduced beam by adding a deep, weighted centerboard (understanding that the trunk and thwarts to mount a heavyish board wd. have to be somewhat beefier than otherwise)?

[Bruce Taylor]

On the contrary, Steve...very helpful. W/ regard to ultralight scantlings...do you find Whisp flimsy?

[sseay]

The Wisp flimsy? I have nothing to compare it to, but I would say it's a tough little ultralite. It doesnt seem to flex in a chop much. And I've never worried about going through the bottom (quarter inch occume glassed) I sail it most often on the Mohawk River (not good sailing water) and I tend to scare off other boater and jetskis. They hav'nt seen a boat under sail there for a hundred years so they keep clear. She cartops fine without damage

[bainbridgeisland]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bruce Taylor:
[QB]I was planning to simply adapt scantlings from similar designs -- though the scarcity of "similar designs" does give me pause. The designs I've been regarding as "comparable" are mostly 3-4 kt hulls, like Oughtred's saling canoes.

Bruce. You might try looking at the National 12 foot dinghy from UK or a Cherub Dinghy from the southern hemisphere. These two boats "bracket" the range of performance you may be interested in, barely planing to easily planing. The National 12 foot dinghy is often built from lapstrake plywood the Cherub dinghy from tortured plywood. The National 12 is a durable boat. The Cherub is less durable. These boats are not designed to be cruised but will give you some idea of lightweight scantlings needed.

[Dave Hadfield]

I agree about the 80lbs, because of the portaging, even if it's infrequent. There won't always be a trail for a dolly, and 120 lbs (while it can be put up on a vehicle) is miserable to carry on your shoulders up a muddy gulley and over a portage trail.

[Bruce Taylor]

Hmm. I just found my copy of Tom Hill's Ultralight Boatbuilding.

Here are the claims he makes for Redmond's Whisp"

"Length 15', 9"
Beam 3' 6"
Weight 68 lbs.

Whisp is an ultralight sharpie skiff, designed for maximum rowing and sailing performance in a boat that can be cartopped and portaged easily. She's capable of handling 600 pounds and is equipped with three caned seats.

She borrow many features from canoe design, and combines these with a flat-bottomed transom-stern hull form to produce maximum stability. She is capable of exhilerating planing performance under sail."

It sounds almost too good. The beam is less than I'd remembered, and the carrying capacity is more. That line about "exhilerating planing performance" must have sold a few copies of the plan, before Redmond went underground.

THis morning, before I ran across Hill's book, I lifted the dimensions from my 17 ft. Mad River canoe (a very comfortable flatwater boat), and drew its rough shape on graph paper. Then I redrew the canoe with a sharpie bottom. The boat I ended up drawing is quite similar to Redmond's (although I drew in a skeg, somewhat in the style of Chappelle's flatiron oystering skiff, and a plumb stem, as on some sailing canoes).

I imagine Redmond must have followed a similar line of thought.

No doubt the boat has shortcomings that Hill neglects to mention. I wonder what they are?

[Dave Hadfield]

Regarding width, are you planning to row it or paddle it? If rowing, I suppose you have a choice of cross-arm, outriggers, or wales far enough apart to take the oars without crossing.

I noticed the polite way you discarded my catamaran idea. And I thought it was inspired....

[Bruce Taylor]

Dave, in all my years of using what the Canadian Coast Guard insists on calling "manual propelling devices" I've probably rowed a grand total of fifty yards. I know nothing about oars, beyond the fact that Ratty seems to enjoy using them.

That said, I can't see paddling a flat-bottomed transom boat. So, if I do this, I guess I'll have to learn to "pull" my weight.

I think the lashed canoe is a fine downwind rig (I seem to remember pictures of a canoe-amaran in an old Scouting manual). But I already have a shed full of canoes and kayaks...I need an excuse -- a pretext, however threadbare -- to build something new.

[Greg H]

I don't know what wisp looks like, so I'm just throwing things out there. smile.gif

Here is an Idea from your area.
16'/ 68lbs/ spritsail and lee boards...
http://www.by-the-sea.com/indianpointboat/ipstlaw.jpg
"The St. Lawrence River Skiff was built as a rowing and sailing craft for
usage in a very hostile environment.

First built near the confluence of the St. Lawrence River and Lake Ontario, it
was indigenous to the open waters of the Great Lakes and swift currents of the
river.

The skiff was a work boat used for a guide's livelihood, raced over long, rough
distances, to be the first at the choice fishing spots.

Sailing with their efficient Sprit sailing rigs the boat's extraordinary handling
and stability characteristics, ensured that the open water trips were safe and
swift.............."

Specs :
http://www.by-the-sea.com/indianpointboat/ipboats.html

http://www.wmspear.com/Billspage/kate.gif
http://www.wmspear.com/Billspage/kate.html

I believe there are plans for traditional construction in one of John Gardener's books.

[ 09-09-2002, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Greg H. ]

[Dave Hadfield]

Seems to me I saw a photo once of a guide standing on the gunwale of a St. Lawrence rowing skiff. If it has that much stability, I imagine it'll sail fine -- not too tender. Does it use a leeboard? (Hard to imagine, with the flare in the topsides.) I suppose you could build it with a daggerboard.

Looks good to me.

[Bruce Taylor]

Thanks, Greg. That's certainly a more modest, gentle St. Lawrence skiff than the '88s featured in WB 164. I'm impressed by the specs. I'll try to dig up some lines, somewhere (I might even have that Gardner book in the chaos of bookshelves).

[blaydone]

Bruce: Check out the Loonfeather at this site: www.databoat.com. (http://www.databoat.com.) (sail under 20')It's light, portagable, cartoppable and cheap. It doesn't look like it will hold a week's worth of supplies, but if you stretch it a few feet, it might fill the bill. Just a thought.

[Wiley Baggins]

Originally posted by Alan D. Hyde:

...shifting gears, a friend built a doped canvas canoe when we were kids--- chines, rails, stem, keel, a few frames, light floorboards and seats.

It didn't weigh 50 pounds dripping wet.

...Bruce,

I think that Alan is on to something here. I have wrestled on-and-off with the same parameters that you are facing (have not had to act because of intervening interests/options). I think that a mixed media boat (canvas/aircraft fabric/hypalon/etc. and solid lumber and plywood) could meet all of your needs. That St. Lawrence skiff might be a nice model to prototype. Platt Monfort has used this technique with success.

[John Gearing]

Hi Bruce--
Here's something that may catch your eye...Phil Bolger's Prince William Sound Yawl! Now before you start imagining plywood boxes, go check out the URL below. This boat is anything but boxy! Bolger must have designed her before he got into that genre. Just to whet your appetite, the description on the page says that the PWS Yawl was designed as a "maximum cartopper". She's 16.5' long. Here's a bit on her history I nicked off the website..

"Fast and spirited (we'll vouch for that), safe in strong winds (welcome to Goolwa - are there other kinds?) and safe in rough water with a tired crew (ditto). Bolger used Nat Herreshoff's Coquina (1989) as a model for the traditional looks. There's dry stowage and buoancy aboard, and room to use her as a camper cruiser. I gather the design request was from Alaska, hence the Alaskan name. They must breed them tough up there..."

http://www.ace.net.au/schooner/PWS.htm#start

I too have been thinking along the lines that you are concerning a cartoppable camp-cruiser. Right now the PWS Yawl looks pretty good to me. When I plugged that moniker into Google (tm) I got a hit where the design was mentioned favorably by Ben Fuller in an article on boats suitable for camp-cruising the Maine Island Trail.

Hope this helps!
John
PS--I never made it up to Wakefield for that wedding in June!

[seedy]

How about skin-on-frame?

[George Roberts]

Bruce ----

There is a great deal of difference in designing an 80# boat that sails in deep water, an 80# boat that is carried in the woods and sailed into rocky shallows, and a 80# boat that is paddled.

Certainly a canoe (beam 30", 17' length) can be built below 50# using good construction technique. Adding a mast, centerboard, and sails gets you up to 80# fast but now you have larger loads both to transfer the wind load to the hull and to stop the powered hull and you need beefier structures.

[Tomcat]

There are a lot of skiffs floating around out of 1/4" plywood. That is basicaly what Whisp is except the sides can be lighter because the laps add stiffness like stringers, and are also elegant. The downside to Whisp is that in order to gain portability, you loose some sail carrying, and some toughness. The question is do you want a knockabout skiff, or a more portable one. The idea isn't to portage it a mile, but few skiffs are observed on the roof of a car around here, and I never see any even 25 yeards down a path to a pond or whatever.

I have an aquaintace who used a Whisp off his trimaran, and his only complaint was that for the ocean the sides wheren't high enough, he added another plank, and was well satisfied.

As the author of the SBJ article said "Versatile boats of real beauty are rare."

See if this sounds familliar. Redmond says: "I find her performance under sail extremely gratifying - exhilarating really, when conditions are right..." ;)

[Bruce Taylor]

Blaydone -- That link doesn't seem to be working. I'll search Loonfeather on Google, later on.

John -- Thanks for the link. I looked at it quickly last night, but haven't had a chance to mull on it. Since you're looking for a similar sort of boat I'd be interested be interested to hear more of yr. thoughts.

Wiley & Seedy -- Skin on frame wd. be fun, one of these days (and I'd like a good reason to pick up that new book on the subject). I think this project is heading in another direction, though...skin without frame (ultralight ply).

George -- I'm looking for a hull that weighs under 80 lbs. stripped. That such a hull can carry sail has been well proven. My Piccolo has three mast steps and partners, and normally carries two sails -- and it still weighs less than sixty pounds. By all accounts, Whisp, at 68 lbs., does just what I have in mind.

I don't plan to portage this boat as I would on a river trip in an open canoe. I can foresee situations where a good launching place might be a kilometre down a bumpy trail. I can imagine wanting to carry over an isthmus separating two large lakes. Anyone who has camped up in my area will know the sort of conditions I'm talking about.

Tomcat -- Thanks for your thoughts. The more I hear about Whisp, the better it sounds. I've wondered if it had sufficient freeboard for large bodies of water, and your friend's experience suggests not.

Portability entails some sacrifice in strength. That is understood. However, I do think there is a lot of interesting design territory between Rushton's 9 1/2 lb. Sairy Gamp (!!) and the typical 140 lb. dinghy.

[ 09-10-2002, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[Ken Hall]

An addendum to Bainbridge's method...are there racks with a "roller" mechanism? If you could use the roller to help you move the boat onto the rack, after doing what Bainbridge described, you could probably move a bit more weight on your own. A good commercial rack, if such exists, would probably be engineered to resist "pinching" under the weight of the boat; if you were making one yourself, you'd have to allow for that.

Good luck!

[WWheeler]

Bruce:

Great thread. I've also found myself canoeing on lakes (Temagami, Algonquin, Georgian Bay), and wondering whether sailing wouldn't be a heck of lot easier, and something more robust would be useful (we've been stranded by bad weather before). On our last trip I improvised a sailing rig for our Swift Alongquin 16, and it was a heck of a lot of fun, except for a few tense moments when the mast fell as a result of mechanical difficulties.

As a result of your post, I was provoked to go look at the Core Sound 17 at B&B Designs. It was specifically designed for camping/cruising and looks like it would be a great boat for the 30,000 islands in Georgian Bay. The B&B Designs web site had an account of a couple who sailed/camped down the Baja Penninsula in a somewhat smaller boat. (Bay skiff) They found it was a great experience, but they found the boat was a little small.

The Core Sound is something like 300 lbs., it would not car top. However, my philsophy is that a light trailer would be much easier than car-topping anyway. I'm always uneasy that the darn thing will stay on the roof. (Once a bad experience with three windsurfers that went bouncing down the highway.)

Perhaps for a camping boat you need to shift the parameters up just a bit? What you're looking for now is actually a sailing canoe, which can be a lot of fun, but for bigger lakes, with camping gear, wife, dog etc. this can be kind of dicey. Also it sounds you want to build a new boat, and you've got a lot of canoes already.

[Wild Dingo]

Originally posted by Ken Hall:
An addendum to Bainbridge's method...are there racks with a "roller" mechanism? If you could use the roller to help you move the boat onto the rack, after doing what Bainbridge described, you could probably move a bit more weight on your own. A good commercial rack, if such exists, would probably be engineered to resist "pinching" under the weight of the boat; if you were making one yourself, you'd have to allow for that.

Good luck!Interesting thought Ken... now considering we have rollers on the trailers couldnt one take four of these rollers and fit them to the roof rack? at the point where the boats sheer rail meets the rack?... mmmm perhaps a couple then at each point? or one large roller similar to a fender?... this then could or should resolve the problem of manouvering the boat up and on? then it would be a matter of strapping down... perhaps a pin affair through the roller into the rack itself slotted through after the boat is up there to stop further rolling? then the strapping tying down?... could be an idea?

Take it easy
Shane

[WWheeler]

Dingo, I've actually seen something that does this. It's sufficient strongly and easy to operate that one guy can put a tin fishing boat (14') on top of a camper/truck. This must be 200-300lb being lifted at least 8-10' high.

It works with a kind of overhead loop that normally sits on top of the vehicle, then swings down to accept the boat. I'm not sure if it's counterweighted, but its a heck of a lift.

[Matt Middleton]

http://www.yakima.com/images/products/dynamic/titles/8004028.gif

http://www.yakima.com/images/products/dynamic/illustrations/8004028.jpg

This is Yakima's version. Funny name. :D

[Bill Perkins]

Would you consider a change in vechicle ? For cartopping I think a pickup with a camper cap and sturdy ladder racks is hard to beat .Operable side windows are almost a must with these .

This gives you some place to haul all the gear, but also the geometry of this rig makes it easy to set up a tilt bed that hinges at the rear rack . A winch or tackle is used to lift the boat. My boat weighs 114 lb., but I could easily lift 150 with my three part tackle . For overland carry I have one of the many good collapsible dollies that can fit right in the boat if they must . If you could just handle a bit bigger boat your other requirements would be better met it seems .

[Bruce Taylor]

Thanks for the cartopping suggestions. It's true that I could hoist a bigger boat if I had the right gear, etc. However, I seem to want to build an ultralight canoe/sharpie hybrid.

The good news is that a forumite is arranging to get some Whisp plans to me. If they are exactly what I want, then I'll save myself a lot of trouble.

Otherwise, I'll finish my lines drawings and post them here so that everyone can throw tomatoes and cream pies at 'em.

So far, what I have is a sort of narrow-beamed (3 1/2 ft) plumb-stemmed sharpie, 15 1/2' long, w/ a raised transom. It has a flat bottom (6" rocker w/ skeg)and single chines. What I want to do (I think) is round the sides between the bottom chine and sheer, to add strength and increase volume.

[ 09-16-2002, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

[Jamie Hascall]

I did have fun recently meeting two guys from Portland touring the San Juans and Gulf Islands in a Thistle named the James Caird. They had it set up with two reefing points and a storm jib for the inevitable fall winds. They were traveling in style with french press coffe pot and a camp stove oven with which they made some great brownies. They were trying to catch a couple of Outward Bound gigs that were a couple of days ahead of them. It sure looked like they could do it, and if not they'd have a great time trying.

Jamie

[Jack Heinlen]

Bruce,

Just some "Whispy" thoughts. I built one to "ultralight" scantlings, and while I've rowed in fairly rough weather, I think I'd be more comfortable with quarter inch planking. And 68 lb's may be achievable, but mine weighs more like 75.

This is a tender boat, and the rig is a bit silly, IMHO. Looks nice, but that tall spar makes the tippy-ness all the more noticeable. I've only sailed the boat once or twice. Great fun to row when light and without the rig

Building heavier would make the boat top out around 90, methinks.

What about one of Wharram's small cats? Portage would take a few more trips, but you could carry a bunch of gear. I seem to remember one about 16 foot, with a cockpit in each hull, in addition to the trampoline. Looked a bit "Mad Max goes Tahitian". His stuff is supposed to be dead simple and cheap to build and rig.

Best of luck,

Jack

[ 09-21-2002, 10:37 PM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]

[DougC]

I've been thinking of using the lines of one of John Gardner's boats and adapting it (someday) to the Tim Hill ultralight glued lap method. The Chamberlin dory skiff (14' x 4')and the Amesbury dory skiff (14' x 3'8") both seem like good candidates. The lines to Pete Cullers' "Owl" also look good - very long and lean. Plans to all of these are available from Mystic Seaport. Then there are the Rangely and Adirondack guideboats.
Doug

[Bruce Taylor]

This is a tender boat, and the rig is a bit silly, IMHO. Looks nice, but that tall spar makes the tippy-ness all the more noticeable.I guess that's why Hill describes the sailing performance as "exhilerating," LOL. Suppose you were to re-rig it as a canoe-yawl -- w/ batwing, or lug, maybe...something with a lot of sail area and a low CE?

Or a (removeable) weighted dagger or centerboard?

When we say "tippy," here, are we talking sudden capsize or just initial tenderness? I don't mind hanging my arse over the rail once in a while, provided the boat has a bit of reserve stability.

The Mad Max cat sounds good, but I've got my sights on a monohull.

[Bruce Taylor]

DougC, I'll dig out Gardner and look at those skiffs.

[Jack Heinlen]

Bruce,

The hull is so narrow that its just tippy. Not like a Glouster Gull, but not far behind. And the freeboard is lower. With the rig stepped, and light/puffy winds, it was down right rambunctious. With the sails down...let's just say you don't use the boat with the spar up and the sails down.

Rowing, if all aboard knew to stay to the middle, was fine. Two people slowed things down more than you would think, because the trim was off.

Rowing by myself was a true pleasure, and that's what I used the boat for mostly. In my opinion, that's what the boat is suited for unless your membership in the international racing canoe association is paid two years in advance.

Could be fun that way, and I don't have much experience to play off of.

As to its use as a multi-verse cruiser, with two people and gear aboard...hmm. S'pose with a smaller, lower rig it might work.

Hey, why not a burdensome 16 foot canoe hull-form, squared and widened slightly at the back, with a standing lug sail for auxiliary power? Oh, you already thought of that.

Jack

P.S. Someone, in a recent WB, was advertising a new composite way to build wooden canoes. Ultra-light, ultra-strong, ultra-cheap and ultra-simple. And I won't come...

Don't have a WB at hand, but ya never know.

[ 09-24-2002, 02:15 AM: Message edited by: Jack Heinlen ]