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uwhilna
02-13-2010, 07:27 AM
I've just removed a 1953 diesel engine and bed which was attached to the frames and eight bronze bolts fastened through the garboard strake. The motor and fuel tank had been installed for over 50 years.

I'm considering laminating sister frames and extending the steel straps on the frame ends up to the stringer and replacing the engine bed. The boat is still afloat, but I don't want her out of the water for more than a few weeks and need to prepare all the materials first, any suggestions?

http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff350/fakeperson/SDC10131.jpg

wizbang 13
02-13-2010, 07:54 AM
Couple of things,what you refer to as steel frame ends are metal floors and they look like forged iron not steel. I normally don't like to see copper strip bonding in a wood boat, but that may be "off topic".Laminating a mess of new stuff IS the way I would go.Collect the right tools( hope you like grinding) and wood and glue .Be carefull of pre ripping wood, sometimes on a job like this , you can start with very thin lams, then rip them thicker as you progress. Consider laminating "spring leaf" floors stringer to stringer.That boat is in the water now? it looks very tight and dry.You may be able to do most of it in the water. One last thing, the bolts passing through the garboard "strake" does not sound kosher.

Bark
02-13-2010, 08:25 AM
onsider laminating "spring leaf" floors stringer to stringer.

Interesting. So to do this, you would remove the iron floor straps, then do the laminating right where the straps used to be, i.e. on top of the frames? And extend the length well beyond where the iron straps currently end?

Just lurking and curious ... not unlike my boat's setup, and we recently redid the engine bed/cradle. Didn't mess with the iron floors, though that may have to be revisited at some point ...

Ben

wizbang 13
02-13-2010, 08:46 AM
Black and white answer here is a little tricky. Sort of would like to leave iron floors in ( a bigger job) and work around them, but pick up their strength. Each frame may take a different treatment, but thats ok cuz it is spreading out the loads/frame scarphs.There is no interior joinery in the way here so all kinds of things are cool. Alongside, on top, or mixed in (getting R rated here) Now, do we know if the floor bolts are good? And maybe one of those floors is bronze!

Todd D
02-13-2010, 09:57 AM
I undertook a similar project a couple of years ago. I opted to replace everything - frames, floors, engine beds. The process is documented at the link below.

http://www.todddunnmicroyachts.com/tortuga/tear_apart-1.html

wizbang 13
02-13-2010, 09:09 PM
don't use oak and don't use steel . appologies for any offence to Feazer or Todd D

Lew Barrett
02-14-2010, 12:16 PM
ks very tight and dry.You may be able to do most of it in the water. One last thing, the bolts passing through the garboard "strake" does not sound kosher.

I'd underscore that.

Any chance you can get a marine architect to take a peek? Fresh re-power is a big deal. It might be nice to have a pro on the job. Usually doesn't cost too much for some suggestions, can save a lot later.

uwhilna
02-14-2010, 02:51 PM
Couple of things,what you refer to as steel frame ends are metal floors and they look like forged iron not steel. I normally don't like to see copper strip bonding in a wood boat, but that may be "off topic".Laminating a mess of new stuff IS the way I would go.Collect the right tools( hope you like grinding) and wood and glue .Be carefull of pre ripping wood, sometimes on a job like this , you can start with very thin lams, then rip them thicker as you progress. Consider laminating "spring leaf" floors stringer to stringer.That boat is in the water now? it looks very tight and dry.You may be able to do most of it in the water. One last thing, the bolts passing through the garboard "strake" does not sound kosher.

Thanks for your advice, in lieu of floor timbers the forged iron ( not steel as I had said) plates are bolted to the keel and heel of the frame. The copper strip is the SSB earth and I assume that is what you refer to. Otherwise 80% of the frame straps have been replaced by a previous owner in bronze.

I will post a better pic of the garboard bolt arrangement that has been used since around 1921 to secure the engine bed and would seem to be a good idea given that this is an area that is often prone to failure.

uwhilna
02-14-2010, 03:27 PM
Oh yes. Get those damn bolts out of the garboards. I am sure that must have been a afterthought/fix at some time in the past but you absolutely do not want or need machinery bolts penetrating your hull skin let alone the garboards aft in the tuck.

The whole job will take some head scratching and and the patience of an oyster but it will be worth it.

Good luck
Thanks for your comment, I will try and post a pic later re the garboard fastenings, but to clarify, the bolts held the bed in place and survived 60yrs and three circumnavigations, I'm in the " if it works don't fix it camp"......but happy to be persuaded there is a better way.

wizbang 13
02-15-2010, 05:53 AM
Here is another thought.As many of the metal floors had been upgraded to bronze,I wonder if only under the engine and tank did not get this treatment. But bolts were dropped in through the bearers and out through the PLANK at that time.

Emma56
02-15-2010, 10:05 AM
Could you tell me what was the old engines make/ and weight

uwhilna
02-15-2010, 04:01 PM
Could you tell me what was the old engines make/ and weight

Hi there the engine was a 55hp standard vanguard diesel used in Massey Harris/Ferguson tractors and London Taxis in the 50's, I'm not sure of the exact weight but will get back on that.

How is the snow upstate....I used to live close to Lake George and have fond memories of 20ft drifts.

John A. Campbell
02-15-2010, 07:38 PM
Feazer, I got this feeling that you know what the Hell you're talking about.....I'm impressed!

Lew Barrett
02-15-2010, 09:02 PM
Feazer,

When I say "NA" I really mean it to be "expert" regardless if that's a good experienced marine engineer or an ex navy cap with credentials, or a good shipwright.

I realize you are not familiar with my experience....which was rather elaborate (if not extensive) but if as is smetimes the case, you are going say from gas to Diesel and you decide not to use Yanmars for example but want small Deeres or Cats or Cummins ir(......?) then you may find yourself short of deck height and long on weight.

In my case, we wanted slower turning and more cylinders than a Yanmar or a Vetus might have given us so we actually ended up with more motor in the boat and a need to beef up the foundation.



I know you are not familiar with my experiences which are certain to be more limited and application specific than yours. We had a different scenario needing to retain all the strength possible but at the same time, we needed to lower the stringers to make it all fit.

As you know I usually take a conservative path on this stuff. I gladly accede to your suggestion of "engineer."

In my case we had also to add thrust bearings, and the job was also done by my friends Capt. Malcolm Munsey who suggested the dimensions and approach, and Dennis Feragan a very competent ex-Cat engineer who also does systems work for Lindblat.

I agree with you....doesn't need to be an NA, and on my job the guys already there were the guys that sussed it out. but a good NA should also be able to do the math.

As always, your experience is (graciously) acknowledged.

boattruck
02-15-2010, 10:00 PM
U, It appears from the snapshot that some of the floors have been done up at a later date with bronze, I would vote for removing the remaining steel/iron floors( gingerly, as you are still floating!) patterning up and having the four or so remaining floors cast up to match the rest of the bronze floors, while you are waiting for the casting house to get those out, you could laminate up sections of missing / damaged frames you want to replace ( a bit oversize so you can bevel and fit and scarf till all is good), then when you get all your pieces and parts in hand you should be able to put it all together within a reasonable haulout period. I assume there are two fore and aft timber engine beds that have been removed prior to the photo session? Or perhaps are not visable from this angle... Looks like a worthy and fun project, Cheers, BT

Lew Barrett
02-16-2010, 12:00 AM
No sweat Feazer; I did not take it as anything but properly corrective wording. You have been a great mentor for me and everybody else. As you say, we all learn from each other. You've been a wonderful addition and read here....hope we hook up someday.
Not to go all squishy, but lets just agree it's great to have the old hands and shipwrights on the forum, and you are in that hallowed company. Dave Fleming left and you and a few other guys with equal experience showed up and the village continues to have interesting, experienced voices to give us all sound advce.


I forgot (here) that all work must be done to scale and this ship is likely to come away with 28 HP. I am red faced.:o

I don't want to hijack this thread but here's a picture of a couple of guys with their hands full! My job was complex and made more so because we did some of the stuff you are talking about: Python Drives, (:CV" joints) etc.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff76/LewBarrett/Rita%20images/repower01.jpg

To answer:

We didn't have to cut the cabins. The job got done at Delta and they had a U Bar shaped deal (a big skyhook!) that we hooked onto the crane. I pulled the rails and the doors, and the cats....just.....fit in with a bit of disassembly. That was part of the deal.....getting a package that would fit without having to cut the boat up. We used Cat 3056 (125HP, 6 cyl, 6 liter naturals) that are really the new Sabre since Cat bought Perkins a few years back. I wanted sixes for a good idle and I wanted a flat torque curve, medium speed turning and about the HP of these. After all the measuring and considerations, they chose themselves by process of elimination. I wanted efficiency too, and the little Cats promised that. Also wanted "easy to fix, easy to get parts" for me and the next guys.

We used a 2.1:1 ZF/Hirth gears and that was just about the only gear that would fit out of everybody's catalog because of my relatively low deck height, long flat shaft run and.....lowered stringers. we just avoided some kind of planetary/concentric gears by the hairs of our chins. It was a big relief to find a ZF that fit that wasn't $6000 a gear set.

I don't know if Malcolm worked with Captain Huycke, but all the other specs fit him; I'm sure he's the same guy you are thinking of. Crusty, flat down east accent, very serious guy. I needed a new survey anyway, so we grabbed him at the outset and he came along for the ride on the project. Turned out great because I got a lot of good advice for the price of a survey.

We cut the stringers and capped them with heavy aluminum plate to get the rigidity back. It really wasn't that big of a deal, but I wouldn't have known how to go about it without his help. Dennis (mechanical engineer.... is the guy standing on the stbd. Cat) did all the metal forming. That's Brian Johnson putting the grease on the motor to get it in and I'm taking the picture. Not a great picture, but it does act as proof! I have a lot of pictures of the motors going in, but none of the prepared beds! My mistake. Turns out they would have been nice to photograph.

What did I miss? Well....enough hijacking! I'll do a write up here on it (again) someday. It was wild, excessive, foolish but I think everyone agrees it was a successful project and I don't think you'll find too many 75 year old boats with all that fancy stuff pushed into them. I must have been crazy. It is a bit of heartache to let this boat go which I will be doing over the next year or so, but it's time for me to move on. Also another story.

uwhilna
02-16-2010, 05:09 AM
Here is another thought.As many of the metal floors had been upgraded to bronze,I wonder if only under the engine and tank did not get this treatment. But bolts were dropped in through the bearers and out through the PLANK at that time.

This is a shot looking forward and you can see the bolts which held the lower part of the bed to the hull & the upper half of the bed was fastened separately to the engine.

The same method was used for an earlier 1920's installation, and several of the these bolts are still intact.
http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff350/fakeperson/bilgejpg.jpg

wizbang 13
02-16-2010, 06:33 AM
is that cement in the bilge? those bolts through the planking look even WORSE from this angle!

RFNK
02-16-2010, 06:56 AM
I'm guessing that from the look of those frames, the planking is pretty solid - at least an inch or more thick, right? And probably something pretty soild at that. It's hard to say that fastening the engine bed with bolts through the garboard was a bad idea if it's really lasted 60 years but it sure looks like a bad idea to leave it like that after 60 years! I think I'd be looking at tying it into your new floors and those frames if it was me, and plugging up the bolt holes. That whitish stuff under one of your iron floors looks pretty suspect or is it just something spilt on it? If the fastenings through those frames are steel then it seems likely you'll have damaged timber in those frames where the steel will have corroded and affected the wood. If this has caused any rot in those frames then sistering will just spread the problem. Rick

uwhilna
02-25-2010, 06:28 AM
is that cement in the bilge? those bolts through the planking look even WORSE from this angle!

Yes there is some cement in the bilge, which I will remove eventually but I've spent the last year topsides doing the deck and concentrating on drying the boat out. The bolts were in remarkably good condition and the vessel came through a gale or two on her delivery voyage without falling to bits.

Over the last month I've stripped all the paint off the planking and a layer of "fur" off the teak in the unpainted\unventillated areas . http://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff350/fakeperson/Photo0043.jpg

Several frames have already been laminated to sister frames in this areahttp://i538.photobucket.com/albums/ff350/fakeperson/Photo0044.jpg