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ccx2
02-08-2010, 04:55 PM
Hey Guys, still trying to figure out this bottom paint job on my epoxy/plywood Garvey. I had planned on painting the whole boat with topside paint since it will be always stored on a trailer but have been advised against it, good advice, thanks. So my new plan was to use brightsides topside paint on the outside of the hull to the waterline and hard non ablating paint below the waterline but i dont want a contrasting color nor do i really want to buy/apply two different paints.My Question Is....Is that the normal/necessary way its done or can a bottom paint be used on all of the hull above and below the waterline and look good, and is that the usual way its done? Thanks

Peter Malcolm Jardine
02-08-2010, 06:29 PM
There are no matching colors unless it's going to be white, Trilux II is available in white...

Otherwise, Use perfection, which is a two part. It is 70% waterproof, as opposed to about 35% waterproof for brightsides.

Mis4tun81
02-08-2010, 07:47 PM
Question.... Since I'm new to this.

When you say epoxy ply are the parts completely epoxy coated or will the paint you use go right onto the wood?

It sounds like a stupid question but from my research some bottom paints can be applied directly to wood. And some need a base coat of something. And in some of those cases epoxy is acceptable.

Just curious.

Thanks

Todd D
02-08-2010, 08:02 PM
Perfection, like any other two part urethane paint, will bubble is kept submerged for more than a week or so.

I would use an ablative bottom paint if you want to use bottom paint. Ablative paints are not that soft when dry.

However, if you are going to trailer the boat and never leave it in the water for more than a couple of days, then you can use pretty much any paint you want.

ccx2
02-08-2010, 08:38 PM
Perfection, like any other two part urethane paint, will bubble is kept submerged for more than a week or so.

I would use an ablative bottom paint if you want to use bottom paint. Ablative paints are not that soft when dry.

However, if you are going to trailer the boat and never leave it in the water for more than a couple of days, then you can use pretty much any paint you want.
I THINK what i need is a bottom paint that will dry glossy and be nice to look at that will withstand below the waterline, but i want to paint the whole outside of the hull with this paint [white], above and below the waterline. Is this the normal way or do most paint to the waterline with a topside paint and then a bottom paint for below the waterline?

rbgarr
02-08-2010, 09:13 PM
Pettit Vivid will mix colors to match what you want. It's ablative however.
http://www.pettitpaint.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=18

ccx2
02-08-2010, 10:05 PM
Pettit Vivid will mix colors to match what you want. It's ablative however.
http://www.pettitpaint.com/catalog_browse.asp?ictNbr=18
Wouldnt an Ablative paint be dull and chalky and not suited for above the waterline because of its appearance?

Todd Bradshaw
02-08-2010, 11:20 PM
I haven't seen any bottom paints yet that look anything like topside enamel. Most of them look a lot more like thick, flat latex. They're fine below the waterline where they have work to do, but they aren't the type of finish most folks would want on an entire hull.

If you want a nice gloss finish, you're most likely going to need to use some sort of enamel, LP or other paint made for that purpose. Bottom paint can be used below the waterline where it belongs if needed. I would also suggest an ablative for bottom paint. Once you've spent a couple of days under a boat grinding off old dead non-ablative stuff to get rid of the thick buildup before repainting, you'll clearly understand the value of self-removing ablatives, too. Fiberglass is really nasty to sand, but I'd much rather sand glass than bottom paint. Ten years later, I think I can still taste that crap, even though I wore a good mask.

ccx2
02-09-2010, 07:09 AM
I haven't seen any bottom paints yet that look anything like topside enamel. Most of them look a lot more like thick, flat latex. They're fine below the waterline where they have work to do, but they aren't the type of finish most folks would want on an entire hull.

If you want a nice gloss finish, you're most likely going to need to use some sort of enamel, LP or other paint made for that purpose. Bottom paint can be used below the waterline where it belongs if needed. I would also suggest an ablative for bottom paint. Once you've spent a couple of days under a boat grinding off old dead non-ablative stuff to get rid of the thick buildup before repainting, you'll clearly understand the value of self-removing ablatives, too. Fiberglass is really nasty to sand, but I'd much rather sand glass than bottom paint. Ten years later, I think I can still taste that crap, even though I wore a good mask.
Hey Todd, So you are saying that the normal way to paint the hull and get a nice finish on a trailered boat would be a topside paint above the waterline and an Ablative below, and i would take a chance of the paint failing if i use something other than a bottom paint below the waterline?

Todd Bradshaw
02-09-2010, 01:46 PM
It depends on how long you plan to leave it in. For daysailing, you could certainly do the whole hull with a nice glossy topside enamel. It's when you start thinking about leaving it in for several days that you run the risk of the paint peeling and as far as I know, there aren't any reliable published figures that will tell you exactly how long the safe period is (probably depends a lot on the individual application, base material, maybe even the water temp, pollution rate, etc. as well). In my experience around here, a long weekend in the water may be pushing your luck.

You don't really need the antifouling capabilities of bottom paint for weekend excursions, though you may pick up a bit of slime. It can usually be quickly removed with a sponge and hose when you get home. What you do need is something that won't peel and it doesn't hurt that bottom paint is pretty easy to touch-up if it gets abraded by the trailer bunks, rollers, beaching, etc. Scratched-up enamel is a much more difficult spot-fix if you want the repair to blend in well.

I wouldn't call ablatives "stunning" from a cosmetic point of view, but the one I use (Hydrocoat) holds up well to trailering, daysailing, and on a mooring for a whole season or two if needed, and doesn't seem to chalk or look much different as it slowly wears away. This is Brightside enamel on the topsides and bootstripe, and Hydrocoat ablative on the bottom.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/nordica%20stern.jpg

ccx2
02-09-2010, 03:55 PM
OK Todd , thanks, those are the paints i intend to use exactly but i was REALLY hoping to only use one paint and one color for the outside of the hull. I will only use it for maybe a 12hour fishing trip at most but would like to be safe that it wont sluff off or peel.

Todd Bradshaw
02-09-2010, 04:10 PM
If a 12 hour fishing trip is likely the maximum duration, I'd probably just use the enamel, the same way I do on a canoe. You could always make a test chunk on scrap with the same sealers and finish and give it the old bucket test to see how it holds up.

yzer
02-09-2010, 04:11 PM
Hull side and below the waterline paints meet different functions so you find two paints used most wooden boats. However, I don't see why you couldn't use a good one-part poly like Easypoxy or Brightside or a two part poly like Awlgrip to accomplish both jobs with a trailered boat.

A good compromise might be something like Pettit Old Salem 1959 Hard Racing Copper Bronze. It's a very attactive and slick paint. I've seen guys polish and buff this stuff for low drag and sharp looks.

ccx2
02-09-2010, 04:35 PM
So the two of you think Brightsides [ive already bought it] might do ok as i read it. Whats the worst that could happen, it fails and i have to sand it off and bottom paint goes on. I think ill try a test piece on a scrap for two or three days as you say Todd and see what it does. And maybe in the meantime i can find someone who has tried some. Thanks.

Todd D
02-09-2010, 05:44 PM
If you only leave the boat in the water for a day or two, brightsides will be fine for the entire hull. If you NEVER intend to put bottom paint on it, then you can wax the brightsides too. However, once you put a coat of wax on the hull, it makes repainting a real pain because you have to totally remove the wax before you can repaint.

ccx2
02-09-2010, 08:25 PM
If you only leave the boat in the water for a day or two, brightsides will be fine for the entire hull. If you NEVER intend to put bottom paint on it, then you can wax the brightsides too. However, once you put a coat of wax on the hull, it makes repainting a real pain because you have to totally remove the wax before you can repaint.
Thanks Todd. Do you know of it being done or have you done it yourself?

jim_cricket
02-09-2010, 09:29 PM
I used Brightside over Brightside Primer over epoxy on my sharpie, and have left the boat in the water for as long as three days, on several occasions, and have suffered no blistering or other ill effects. This is in dirty NY water, Chesapeake water, and Maine water. My trailer bunks do the most damage, and submerged pilings have done some too. I used a flattening agent below the water line, because I wanted a duller finish there. It is not as hard a finish as the topsides, which I think is why the carpeted bunks scuff it up a little. Hope this is of some help.
Jim Luton

yzer
02-09-2010, 10:31 PM
I've never had a need to put a coat of wax on Brightside or Easypoxy above the waterline. My boat is kept in the water all year long so it has ablative bottom paint. Blue Coral High Foam Car Wash is all that I need to keep up a high gloss between paint recoats every seven to eight years. Blue Coral will bead water for a couple of months but I wash the boat every two to three weeks anyway. It doesn't cause any problems with paint or varnish recoats.

Todd Bradshaw
02-09-2010, 11:20 PM
Wax on paint is actually a pretty easy to remove when repainting. Auto body shops do it all the time. As long as you avoid any wax that has more than just a tiny bit of silicone in it, you can wash it off with naptha or one of the commercial de-waxers. The problem with wax is that it doesn't last very long. There have been all kinds of boat waxes formulated over the years to shine the boat up and even some claiming extended UV protection or even anti-fouling properties. Most of them seem to be pretty much gone in a couple of weeks. The ones that I've had the best luck with on paint also contain a tiny bit of polishing compound (very fine abrasive) that does seem to cut away oxidized paint and leave a nicer surface, even after the wax part seems to have disappeared. The green boat above had just been in for a cleanup and the topsides were refurbished using 3M One-Step cleaner/wax, which is one of these products. That paint had been sitting outside, year-round for three years and had spent the previous summer on a mooring and the One-Step cleaned it up nicely. Zymol Cleaner/Wax is another good one (Target automotive dept. - blue, tall bottle). Zymol is water-based. Unlike most waxes, which are solvent-based, you can build multiple layers of Zymol without the solvents re-liquifying the layer underneath. Both One-Step and Zymol have very slight amounts of silicone in them, but they will clean off when needed for repainting without leaving silicone residue, which can be the kiss of death for a good paint job.

The ones that you seriously want to avoid are the "miracle" finishes and polishes, like you see on infomercials where they go to the junkyard and magically restore the weathered hood of an old car. Most of them are loaded with silicone and the residue is quite difficult to remove - leading to very serious fisheye problems if you ever need to repaint. If pretty much all you need to do is wipe it on, wipe it off and watch the magic happen, don't get it near your boat.

The trick with wax removal is that you do it before you sand the surface, prior to repainting. Otherwise, you're grinding it down into the tiny scratches that your sandpaper makes, where it's a lot harder to actually get rid of. It's the same deal as amine blush on epoxy. Remove the blush before you start sanding, so that you're not just working it down into the sanded surface.

ccx2, a carefully done Brightside dunk test would be worth doing and posting the results if you're up for it. If you check it at 12 hour intervals for peeling, softening, etc. and let it run for a week or so, the results might give us all a somewhat better idea of the possibilities and limits of the product.

Todd D
02-10-2010, 11:15 AM
I painted one of my dinghys with brightsides 10 years ago. It has been in the water for up to a week with no problems. I wouldn't leave it in all summer without bottom paint though.

ccx2
02-10-2010, 03:59 PM
I painted one of my dinghys with brightsides 10 years ago. It has been in the water for up to a week with no problems. I wouldn't leave it in all summer without bottom paint though.
Excellent info, Thanks Todd.

ccx2
02-10-2010, 08:30 PM
I used Brightside over Brightside Primer over epoxy on my sharpie, and have left the boat in the water for as long as three days, on several occasions, and have suffered no blistering or other ill effects. This is in dirty NY water, Chesapeake water, and Maine water. My trailer bunks do the most damage, and submerged pilings have done some too. I used a flattening agent below the water line, because I wanted a duller finish there. It is not as hard a finish as the topsides, which I think is why the carpeted bunks scuff it up a little. Hope this is of some help.
Jim Luton
Hey Jim, Good info , Thanks. Just curious, why did you want a dull finish below the water line?

Eric Hvalsoe
02-11-2010, 11:11 AM
I have no worries leaving my cedar lapstrake dinghy in the water (Pacific Northwest), Brightside keel to sheer, for a couple of days, or a couple of weeks, maybe even a month. Otherwise the boat lives on the trailer.

Recently I recoated the bottom of a 23' Kutter. The boat is moored in fresh water. My understanding is that antifouling paint really addresses salt water organisms. New formulations advertise a mildicide to fight fresh water slime, but I did not find anyone willing to vouch for it. This owner did not need an antifouling paint in the usual sense. But he did need to keep the boat in the water. We used Pettit Hard Copper Racing Bottom Paint. I don't really understand what the difference is between this and topside enamel, but has been around for decades.

For the occasional dunk sounds like the OP can use topside enamel.

Todd Bradshaw
02-11-2010, 11:28 AM
"Maybe even a month"
Does this mean that you've tried it or is that just a guess?

Leave a boat in the fresh water here for a couple of months without anti-fouling paint and you won't just have slime on it. It will grow a nice coat of green fur about 1/2" long. Fail to scrape it off and let this stuff dry for a couple of months on the hull and it hardens like concrete. Folks only make the "I don't need bottom paint because this is fresh water" mistake once.

wizbang 13
02-11-2010, 01:53 PM
You don't need anti fouling on a trailer boat. (frigging ridiculus). Focus instead on good epoxe undercoat. in fact, epoxe undercoat alone might work well for you' ( EH #23, thats a kutter )in my avatar

Todd Bradshaw
02-11-2010, 02:10 PM
Yeah, at least for the 200 hours or so that it lasts before UV starts to break it down and chalk it all to hell.

wizbang 13
02-11-2010, 02:25 PM
what UV? the "store the boat upside down in the sun"UV?

yzer
02-11-2010, 03:04 PM
Our boat is berthed in an estuary all year. Most of the year it's fresh water. From mid-summer until the first rains of the season in November it's brackish water.

We don't need ablative bottom paint for marine organisms, we need it for algae control. Cruising the boat for a few hours blows most of the hull clean but it quickly returns after sitting at the slip for two weeks. In addition to copper in ablative paints there are proprietary herbicides that work for a while. In our waters, I haven't found the additional herbicides to be effective longer than two seasons.

I re-coat bottom paint every three or four years and sometimes hire a diver to wipe the bottom clean during the fall of years two and three.

Todd Bradshaw
02-11-2010, 04:11 PM
What UV? The UV that you aparently don't know much about. It's going to deteriorate and wear away the barrier coat, which you also don't seem to know much about, just sitting on the trailer - and you don't need to turn the boat over for it to happen. Anybody who applies epoxy products to a hull and leaves it outside without some form of protective layer over it is just asking for trouble - and it doesn't usually take very long for it to show up. You can barrier coat if you want, but it just comes back to the same question of what sort of paint you put on the outside of the hull.

Eric Hvalsoe
02-11-2010, 05:02 PM
"Maybe even a month"
Does this mean that you've tried it or is that just a guess?

Leave a boat in the fresh water here for a couple of months without anti-fouling paint and you won't just have slime on it. It will grow a nice coat of green fur about 1/2" long. Fail to scrape it off and let this stuff dry for a couple of months on the hull and it hardens like concrete. Folks only make the "I don't need bottom paint because this is fresh water" mistake once.

What the hell is up your rear end today? Yah maybe a month, maybe I have had my boat sitting in fresh water for as much as 3 weeks or a month, sorry I don't have the dates in front of me. I have not felt impelled to put bottom paint on for that kind of exposure. No, I was not talking about two or three months. I was however trying to make a usefull contribution to the discussion.

Todd Bradshaw
02-11-2010, 05:35 PM
Just curious whether you actually had any real experience leaving your boat in for a month and what happened to the topside enamel? If that offends you, it's not my problem. Considering that the cans specifically state that it's not intended for use below the waterline, that seems rather risky to me. In my case, I trailer-sailed my Starboat with topside enamel (Brightside) over sanded WEST epoxy on its bottom and keel for five years with no problems. The next owner dropped it into a slip on Lake Superior where the enamel started peeling within a week or so.

I do get a kick out of former coasties who think that us landlocked folks in the middle of the country don't need antifouling paint though. After their first season in town, they're out there with a chisel trying to get a thick layer of nasty rock-hard green goo off their boats.

ccx2
02-11-2010, 07:55 PM
Just curious whether you actually had any real experience leaving your boat in for a month and what happened to the topside enamel? If that offends you, it's not my problem. Considering that the cans specifically state that it's not intended for use below the waterline, that seems rather risky to me. In my case, I trailer-sailed my Starboat with topside enamel (Brightside) over sanded WEST epoxy on its bottom and keel for five years with no problems. The next owner dropped it into a slip on Lake Superior where the enamel started peeling within a week or so.

I do get a kick out of former coasties who think that us landlocked folks in the middle of the country don't need antifouling paint though. After their first season in town, they're out there with a chisel trying to get a thick layer of nasty rock-hard green goo off their boats.
Todd and Eric, thank you both for you info. Todd, on your Starboat did you also prime before topcoat? Ive seen where some say its not necessary.

Bruce Hooke
02-11-2010, 08:13 PM
Todd, on your Starboat did you also prime before topcoat?

I'm not Todd (obviously) but the general rule I learned with respect to primer and epoxy is to test a little of the paint on the epoxy. If it dries in the normal amount of time then all is well and primer probably is not necessary. If it does not then something between the epoxy and the paint is called for...

Todd Bradshaw
02-11-2010, 09:13 PM
No primer on the Star. Would it make a difference? I don't know - although as far as I've been able to find out, most of the stuff that's added to make regular enamel primers is to make them sand nicely and fill small defects, not to improve adhesion or water resistance. I tried the Brightside primer once over epoxy and though it worked fine, it didn't seem to add anything other than an extra round of sanding before I could paint. The epoxy surface was already sanded smooth, so there wasn't anything for the primer to fill. Gougeon Brothers mentioned at one point that they weren't usually priming epoxy, so I tried skipping it and it has worked fine for me ever since. I usually water-wash the epoxy well, sand it up to about 150 grit with the random orbit and start painting with a roller in one hand and a tipping brush in the other, working vertically in overlapping chunks maybe 16" wide or so. Most of the time, I'm using WEST 105/205 or 207and it doesn't seem to need any sort of tie-coat, isolation coat, etc. Other resin and paint brands/types might be different. I did use Brightside primer and paint on a couple wooden exterior window frames on my house about ten years ago (no epoxy)and it's holding up really well. I wouldn't hesitate to use it on non-resin surfaces.

The only really odd situation I've stumbled across was a two-tone Brightside paint job over sanded WEST epoxy containing their barrier coat additive (aluminum flake powder). When you sand the barrier coats smooth, you cut open some of the little resin-coated particles on the surface, exposing raw aluminum. These little bitty aluminum bits immediately start to oxidize and oxidized aluminum doesn't take or hold paint very well. Anyway, the paint job was dark green and white. The dark green went on fine. The white, however, had a fair number of tiny pinholes, like itty-bitty fisheyes. I don't know why the green didn't have any trouble bridging these spots when the white did, but I suspect that the fairly thick nature of Brightside primer as the first coat might have eliminated the problem.

ccx2
02-11-2010, 09:20 PM
No primer on the Star. Would it make a difference? I don't know - although as far as I've been able to find out, most of the stuff that's added to make regular enamel primers is to make them sand nicely and fill small defects, not to improve adhesion or water resistance. I tried the Brightside primer once over epoxy and though it worked fine, it didn't seem to add anything other than an extra round of sanding before I could paint. The epoxy surface was already sanded smooth, so there wasn't anything for the primer to fill. Gougeon Brothers mentioned at one point that they weren't usually priming epoxy, so I tried skipping it and it has worked fine for me ever since. I usually water-wash the epoxy well, sand it up to about 150 grit with the random orbit and start painting with a roller in one hand and a tipping brush in the other, working vertically in overlapping chunks maybe 16" wide or so. Most of the time, I'm using WEST 105/205 or 207and it doesn't seem to need any sort of tie-coat, isolation coat, etc. Other resin and paint brands/types might be different. I did use Brightside primer and paint on a couple wooden exterior window frames on my house about ten years ago (no epoxy)and it's holding up really well. I wouldn't hesitate to use it on non-resin surfaces.

The only really odd situation I've stumbled across was a two-tone Brightside paint job over sanded WEST epoxy containing their barrier coat additive (aluminum flake powder). When you sand the barrier coats smooth, you cut open some of the little resin-coated particles on the surface, exposing raw aluminum. These little bitty aluminum bits immediately start to oxidize and oxidized aluminum doesn't take or hold paint very well. Anyway, the paint job was dark green and white. The dark green went on fine. The white, however, had a fair number of tiny pinholes, like itty-bitty fisheyes. I don't know why the green didn't have any trouble bridging these spots when the white did, but I suspect that the fairly thick nature of Brightside primer as the first coat might have eliminated the problem.
Very Interesting, and thanks again.

wizbang 13
02-12-2010, 08:09 AM
Todd, why be like that?I don't know what you know and you don't know what I know. The chap asked for advice. We should judge stuff on its' success not failures. I've lived in the West Indies for 17 of the past 34 years,wood boats only. Lots of sun on lots of epoxe. I,ve got a few plywood trailer boats at home in Tacoma(40 knot jobbies),so I know what I'm talking about.I think an epoxe barrier coat could be a good end game for a trailer boat.

Todd Bradshaw
02-12-2010, 09:19 PM
Why be like that? Maybe because I believe posters need accurate, detailed answers to their questions, not one-liners or unsubstantiated hunches with no technical information offered to support them - which ignore the characteristics and drawbacks of the products being suggested.

Barrier coating is not formulated for this purpose, won't do the job well, and is a bad choice for several reasons. They're made as a sealer/primer layer for fiberglass, gel-coated hulls to prevent or repair osmotic blisters. Of the common types, you have tar-epoxies, which don't ever seem to totally harden up and they remain rather sticky, often leaving black goo on anything that gets near them (trailer bunks, sailors etc.). For obvious reasons, they aren't a very good choice, or particularly pleasant to deal with on recreational small boats.

Then you have the "make it yourself" epoxy resin/aluminum flake mixtures from companies like Gougeon Brothers. Epoxy keeps water out pretty well, but aluminum does it better. Unfortunately, it's rather difficult to roll or brush a coat of aluminum on your boat, so these mixtures of tiny aluminum flakes suspended in epoxy resin are the next best bet. To penetrate the epoxy, the water molecules literally would have to zig-zag around the tiny aluminum bits. If mixed properly, these coatings are not opaque, they are a greyish, translucent coating which you build up to around 5-6 layers thick, then sand smooth. The thickness is the key to water protection and they want you to put on enough to wind up with 10 mils or better after all sanding is done. Then you overcoat it with paint because translucent epoxy compounds are still subject to UV deterioration, which will happen, chalking away the coating or even turning it rubbery as it crumbles away. As an inner layer of the system, these compouds work well and will probably last for the life of the boat. As an outer unprotected layer, they may be ruined in as little as a few months, as will most epoxy mixes. If it matters, they also aren't very pretty to look at, especially after they have been sanded smooth. As I mentioned before, you can barrier coat your boat if you think you need to for some reason, but once the coat is on, you are faced with the same problem you started with - "What paint do I put on top of it to protect it and provide a decent looking outer surface?"

The other common barrier coats are premanufactured, pre-mixed compounds like Interprotect. They are similar technology and also designed to be built up to suitable thickness (typically 5-6 coats). Rather than aluminum flake, Interprotect uses mica flakes and dubs it "Microplate technology". It's the same basic deal where the water has to zig-zag around the flakes to penetrate the coating. Interprotect is pigmented, mostly so that it can be applied in alternating colors (white, grey, white, etc.) to insure even coverage as you build up the layers. After application, it is designed to be painted and protected either with bottom paint below the waterline, or primer and enamel of some sort if used above the waterline. It is not intended to be used as a final finish where the elements can deteriorate it, and despite being colored, it ain't very pleasing to look at either.

So after all the work and expense of barrier coating the bottom (which your wooden boat probably didn't need in the first place) you are again back to the initial question "What do I paint this bottom with to protect this expensive layer of stuff and make it look good?" It just doesn't make any sense. If he did want to use an epoxy compound on the bottom that could actually add something to the project and hold up pretty well, he would be better off using a mixture of resin and graphite powder. It's opaque enough that it may chalk a bit on the surface, but the UV damage will stop there. Sanded to a fine enough grit, it also has a pretty nice satin, charcoal color and it tends to make the bottom a bit more slippery if you happen to run over some rocks. You can actually make a pretty classy looking boat bottom with the stuff. It does have a couple potential drawbacks to consider. Though slippery, it is somewhat softer than plain resin and may tend to scratch deeper. Adding a little colodial silica can help harden it up to combat this and is probably worth doing. Also, if left in the sun (especially overturned on a cartop) it can really heat up and this can sometimes present problems with epoxy products. On a trailered boat, this isn't likely to be an issue.

I think we're still pretty much back to square #1 here. Should he paint the whole hull with Brightside, which should work great for a 12 hour excursion or a bit more, but which may peel at some point if the boat is left in the water too long? Or should he use a bottom paint of some sort on the lower portion? If a topside enamel manufacturer knew that their enamel would consistently survive weeks or months of immersion without damage, it would be a powerful marketing feature and they would use it to their advantage. Instead, they say "not for use below the waterline" which should tell you something - at least that you may be taking your chances in unknown territory if you choose to do so. You might be fine, you might have problems and it will depend on how you use the boat.

Bottom paint (either antifouling or one of the racing bronze, non-antifouling paints) is designed to survive underwater, and some will also hold up well for trailering and extended dry periods. If long periods of immersion are a possibility, they may be a better choice, whether you need to fouling protection in your local waters or not. They aren't as nice looking as enamel, but they're usually easier to touch up to fix trailering dings, etc.

wizbang 13
02-13-2010, 02:52 AM
interlux 404/414 is what I had in mind.

Todd Bradshaw
02-13-2010, 03:56 AM
Not suitable.
Quote: "404/414 Epoxy Barrier-Kote is a multi-purpose two-part epoxy primer for use above the waterline. Epoxy Barrier-Kote is an excellent undercoater for Interthane Plus."

It needs UV protection over the top and is not intended to be a final finish. As before, you're back to "What kind of paint should I put over this stuff to protect it and yield a nice finish" - just about the same place you started before you applied it (though you probably won't have to worry much about gelcoat blisters.)

wizbang 13
02-13-2010, 07:27 AM
I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it to pop off the bottom of my boats. Quote"can be used in some underwater systems". No unsubstantiated hunches ( or manifestos) here.

Todd Bradshaw
02-13-2010, 04:40 PM
Yes, and primer does make a lovely final finish...especially if you pull the trailer with a matching '67 Chevelle.

wizbang 13
02-13-2010, 08:41 PM
truth be told.. i pull my trailer boats with a 74 super beetle, so,ye'"got me" !!perfection is an unreasonable goal .. unless its perfection paint

Todd Bradshaw
02-13-2010, 11:37 PM
Though it may not be attainable, I think perfection is always worth shooting for and giving your best effort - and it starts with attention to detail and finding out all you can about what you're doing.

Wild Wassa
02-14-2010, 12:27 AM
"... perfection is an unreasonable goal ... "

I wouldn't have work if I didn't think perfection was an achievable guarantee, for every job. I guarantee to the owners, that if they find a fault with my paint jobs, no matter how small, they don't pay for the job no matter how large the job is.

Perfection is what the owners pay for ... I make sure that they get what they pay for. I have no time for reading that perfection is an unobtainable or an unrealistic expectation for any painter, painting a fine finish or building a working surface in the paint, be they a pro painter or a weekender.

I don't paint work boats. They are dangerous. If it 'ain't perfect it 'ain't anything ... just more work.

Warren.

wizbang 13
02-14-2010, 02:18 AM
there is show boats and there is go boats.

54 Conqueror
02-14-2010, 11:14 AM
No offense to Wild Wassa or anyone else, but a very wise man once told me "the pursuit of perfection is neurotic, the pursuit of excellence is attainable".

Has stuck with me for 25 years.

Todd Bradshaw
02-14-2010, 01:48 PM
"there is show boats and there is go boats."

Back to one-liners, huh? Unfortunately, in many cases, this one becomes little more than an excuse for mediocre quality or bad workmanship. Perhaps the persepctive that folks like Wassa, Pipefitter, MMD and some of the rest of us share is somewhat different because we actually work in this industry. I can't ever remember turning a sail over to its new owner and needing to say "Sorry it looks like hell, or sorry that I used substandard or inappropriate materials to build it - but trust me, it should work fine." It's simply not something that I will ever allow to happen. If I'm not happy with a sail, it will never leave my floor and I'm sure the other guys work to a similar standard. Our customers seem to appreciate it.

At the same time, we see some incredibly good non-professional work around here - innovative ideas and truly spectacular craftsmanship offered up by people who are doing it strictly for the enjoyment of doing it. I doubt these folks had the "go boats/show boats" tripe in mind when they put all those hours and dollars into a recreational project. In these cases, it's up to the owner to set his own standards and work to whatever level of finish or perfection that he chooses or his current skills and budget will allow. A good, honest, carefully crafted workboat can be just as much a thing of beauty as something loaded up with teak and polished brass. If you stay around here very long, you will see plenty of go boats that are showboats, one way or another. It's all a matter of how high you set your standards.