19' motor sailing launch plan double ender

[simonmags]

Hi All, I am looking for designs and plans to build something like a 19 foot (5.7 meter)motor sailing launch, a double ender. ideally the boat would be simialr to this:
http://n.b5z.net/i/u/10059514/i/boatsofservice/USLSSBMMSB9-web.jpg
courtesy of ( http://www.uslife-savingservice.org/power_motor_surfboats )

Anyone know of an open bow double ender that plans exist for currently, someone else mentioned the 26 US Navy boat which is very similar, but I cannot find plans for either so far. I have tried contacting the US Navy Historians office but have not had any luck trying to find the correct email address for them.

Thanks in advance

[simonmags]

I don't overly mind if it is a clinker the guy at the local boat shop mentioned building one as a carvel or strip plank hull would be good as I could get a few planks glued on by myself each night or so, whereas clinker hulls require a few more hours per plank so it would be weekend work only... So strip planking sounded like a good idea.

I am easy as to if it has a sail or not, i think it could be quite fun, but will most likley initially build it without a centreboard and mast and may later add a sail if i can find a verstile design.

And the other stupid question would be, what's the best way to contact the Smithsonian, bearing in mind I am in Australia....

The boat styles I have looked at so far and not been able to find plans/designs or line drawings for are:
Beebe-McLellan Type Motor Surfboat (25 foot)
US Navy Motor life boats (26 foot)
USCG Motor Surf boats (26 foot)
John Welsford whale boat (19 foot) - http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/6m_whaler/index.htm

So far only one boat I have found pictures of has plans and that is John Welsfords, I tried contacting him to ask about using a diesel or electric inboard motor rather than having a hole in the back for the outboard to sit in and have had no response as yet, so am continuing to look around.

[kenjamin]

Hello Simonmags,

I am probably the last person on the planet that should be injecting a bit of reality into your quest for a lifeboat because I've tried a lot of crazy things in my life. But here's the thing. If you were to find plans for a lifeboat and build it sturdy enough to perform as it was intended to perform, then it would be one heavy mother of a boat. This would severely impact its usefulness to you as it would need to be at a slip or mooring because it would be a major production to get the thing in the water. I think you will find that John Welsford's Whaler is intended for recreational use and is built much lighter and will sail much better than a lifeboat, will be much cheaper to build, and be much much easier to launch from a trailer.

By the way, I stuck a 4HP Yamaha down through the middle of a Caledonia Yawl for fishing duties and it works just great! I steer with the sailing rig's rudder.
http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Birdrack.jpg

Oh, and my CY sails pretty good too!

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/XenaSails.jpg

[StevenBauer]

I'd say your best bet for a double ender in this size range is either John Welsfords Whaler (he'll get back to you, he's a busy guy) or Iain Oughtred's Caledonia Yawl. Like this one:

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r241/bauerdad/Small%20Reach%20Regatta%202009/IMG_3314.jpg?t=1265642289

These are very capable boats. This picture shows Geoff Kerr sailing solo but I asked him if he'd really had ten people aboard once. His answer: "On July Fourth we had 12 people and a keg." :D

Much more on the Caledonia Yawl here: http://mavc2002.com/cyforum/index.php

[Thad]

I have the plans (got from the CG plans historian) for the 25' Coast Guard motor surf boat (no sail plan) which looks very much like your picture, as well as a couple of 25' life boats of the Monomoy type, earlier non-motor and sailing, drawn at the Norfolk (VA) Maritime Museum. The motor surf boats are kind of heavy but about as light as they can be for the kind of duty they handled, being cypress (1/2") planked on bent oak on maybe 6" centers. A much bigger boat than Welsford's, as are the Monomoys.

[TR]

French & Webb built a cold-molded 24' double-ended motorsailer, which was launched in 2002. I believe she was called Elf, design was by Paul Gartside, with modifications by her owner Jim Mitchell.

[simonmags]

Thankyou all for your input, the Caledonian Yawl looks a treat, does it go on a trailer okay?
Has anyone fitted one with an inboard motor, like a small diesel or simialr?
Another question for Kenjamin, is the mast on your caledonian yawl removeable or do you just use her as a fishing boat?

[JimD]

There's plenty of double enders you could leave the cabin off. Ie:

Steve Redmond's Elver:

http://www.sredmond.com/boat_images/ElvSailpl_sm.jpg

And a host of canoe yawls http://www.selway-fisher.com/Yacht2024.htm :

http://www.selway-fisher.com/Kittiwd1.gif

And Gawd forgive me for suggesting modifying an Oughtred design:

http://www.geoss.com.au/eun_mara/images/Ian_Dunedin/2008-04-15/9.%20Almost%20Afloat.jpg

[kenjamin]

Yo Simonmags,

With the designer's permission, I went with a daggerboard on my CY and I am able to use the oversized daggerboard box to help step my mast although I beach the boat for more stability to do so. The daggerboard case is so big because it accepts a cartridge that the daggerboard travels through when in use. The cartridge provides enough side pressure on the daggerboard to orient it properly but not so much that the daggerboard can't move if it hits something.

Here's the link about my birdwing mast if you are interested:

http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109234

You really can't go wrong with either Welsford's Whaler or Oughtred's Caledonia Yawl as they are both great boats.

Here's my CY on the trailer. I've trailered it from Florida to Mystic Seaport, CT twice now and that's 1200 miles each way. My little Tacoma 2.7 liter four banger pulls it just fine. It's only something like 500 lbs or 600 lbs loaded so pretty light actually. I get 18.5 miles per gallon on the highway while going with the flow cruising at about 77 miles per hour.

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/XenaTruck.jpg

[JimD]

You really can't go wrong with either Welsford's Whaler or Oughtred's Caledonia Yawl as they are both great boats.


If that's the case then go for the 6MW. It has the look:

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/6m_whaler/6mw2.jpg


http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/6m_whaler/6m.gif

Those long pointy ends on the CY will just not do.

[kenjamin]

It does just fine at punching through boat wakes...

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/HeadedHome-sm.jpg



If that's the case then go for the 6MW. It has the look:

http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/6m_whaler/6mw2.jpg


http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans/6m_whaler/6m.gif

Those long pointy ends on the CY will just not do.

[JimD]

It does just fine at punching through boat wakes...



I wasn't talking about what it does. I was talking about how it looks :p

[kenjamin]

I know, Jim. I was just messing with ya.

Agreed...a guy, if he wanted to, could make the Whaler look very much like a lifeboat by foregoing the fancy sheer plank and completing the run of the sheer plank at the stern rather than putting that notch in there.

[JimD]

I know, Jim. I was just messing with ya.

And you know I know you have a beautiful boat. Still, my personal taste has always run towards the stout, brawny look. A few months back a local guy here had for sale a double ended ex BC Ferries lifeboat with a home built cabin on it, trailer and all for $2000. Looked kinda like this with a wheelhouse. I was sooo tempted.

http://img.youtube.com/vi/LxfbHc463o4/0.jpg

[kenjamin]

If you're going to lust after a lifeboat, why not go all the way...

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/CoastGuard.jpg

I wonder what the operating costs of this baby are.

[simonmags]

I think that is one of the 36 something footers US Coast Gaurd Motor Surf Boats, they are self bailing and self righting, pretty awesome boats really. I'd love one but don't happen to have a slip handy for it just at the minute :)

So what about sticking an inboard in any of these boats. (as in one of the 19 footers, like the Welsford's Whaler or Oughtred's Caledonia Yawl...)

pretty much I like the idea of sailing but know very little about it and would be happy in a stinker with an engine of some form. I looked at electric motors from http://www.bellmann.nu they have some 24 and 36 volt setups. which would mean the battery bank would weigh less than 150kgs depending on what sort of range i wanted to get out of it.

[simonmags]

The other thing to consider of course is that this will be a sea going boat, which will in the end effect which design I everntually go with, the Water in Adelaide is usually not too bad but if I get into some rough water on occasion I don't want to be in a boat designed for inland lakes etc.
That said I doubt I'd take it out on too rough a day.

[kenjamin]

The thing about my four horse four stroke outboard is the versatility it provides. With a six gallon tank it has a range of about 100 kilometers. You can't touch that easily with electric power and with a diesel you're stuck having to deal with the fixed prop and the weight of the installed motor when trailering or sailing. My 4HP Yamaha can be left at home for pure sailing or taken along for backup auxiliary power or taken along for sailing ballast. It only weighs 22 kilograms and can be handled by one person. I built a waterproof hatch that can seal the bottom completely flush with the rest of the bottom for rowing or sailing. Or remove the hatch and insert the motor to turn my CY into a proper motor launch. I like having the motor midship because I get to stand in the stern well away from any noise and vibration of the motor with one hand on the vibration-free tiller and the other hand available to wave to curious passersby. The 4 HP pushes my CY at max hull speed with 5/8ths throttle and with very little noise or effort – plus it has a bunch of reserve power should the occasion call for it. Just thought you might want to know what works for me.

[JimD]

Meanwhile, back to the program. Here's a couple interesting double enders in the specified size range:

20' CATALAN FISHING BOAT http://www.selway-fisher.com/Llautd2.gifThis is a 20’ (6.1m) Traditional Llaut Catalan double ended fishing boat for Mr. Jose Grisell. The hull is for Cedar strip planking - she has a large hold and an inboard engine arrangement. Beam is 7'6" (2.29m) and the loaded displacement to the DWL is 1.5 tons (1524kg). The hull has a typical Mediterranean hull shape with a hard bilge and fairly fine ends making a stable and sea-kindly hull form.


20' Catalan Fishing Boat Particulars
LOA20'6.1mBeam7'6"2.29mHull Mid Depth3'5"1.04mDraft1'8"0.5mSail Area196 sq.ft18.2 sq.mApprox. Dry Weight2450 lbs1111 kg
Hull Shape
Round bilgeConstruction MethodsStrip plank - 2 layers of 12mmMajor plywood requirements for hull4260' of 1/2" x 1 3/4" (1300m of 12x45mm) Western Red CedarGuidance Use4-6 adults + gear/cargoDrawing/Design Package6 x A1 drawings + 4 x A4 instruction sheetsAdditions and alterations included with the plans



18'7" SNIPA SPRIT SAILING FISHING BOAThttp://www.selway-fisher.com/Snipad1.gif
<SPAN style="mso-default-font-family: Arial; mso-ascii-font-family: Arial; mso-latin-font-family: Arial; mso-greek-font-family: Arial; mso-cyrillic-font-family: Arial; mso-hebrew-font-family: Arial; mso-arabic-font-family: Arial; language: EN-GB; mso-ansi-language: EN-GB"><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2>Snipa’s (pronounced Sneepa) are traditional clinker Nordic Fishing boats with a reputation for excellent sea keeping qualities and stability. Construction has been kept much like the original boats although plywood planking can be used instead of solid wood.

[simonmags]

Thanks for all your input everyone, there is some great stuff coming out of this thread.

I really like the 20' Catalan Fishing Boat, and I see it has an "inboard engine arrangment" already, hopefully that's something I can work with :) Actually I think I can see on the picture that it has a well for an outboard motor but anyway.

How much drag or how much slower is a sailing boat with a fixed prop? Something like this from bellman, i'm probably just dreaming as it may be quite expensive but if it's possible i'd like to do it.
http://www.bellmann.nu/images/aquapod%204.jpg

How much does weight matter in the boat with these displacment hulls?
You said you achieve hull speed with a 4 horsepower motor kenjamin, i take it hull speed is just under 6 knots?

Cheers all. Simon

[kenjamin]

Hey Simon,

6 knots sounds about right. What you need to experience for yourself is the ease at which the little 4 HP four-stroke achieves this speed. At 5/8ths throttle it sounds more like a sewing machine than an outboard motor. The light, efficient, double-ended hull that Mr. Oughtred has designed in the Caledonia Yawl needs very little power to move. There's something called "ghosting" where when sailing there seems to be no wind apparent yet the boat is still sailing and making progress forward. CY's do this especially well. I've even found that with the masts stored, I can sit on the mizzen step and paddle Xena like a big canoe – good for sneaking up on feeding redfish. I have a Shaw & Teeney 5' ash paddle that works great for that.

Some say that a CY is too big to row well but I've found that with two people, two rowing stations and two oars (one for each person) that a CY can be rowed very effectively. By using an extra tall oarlock in the aft rowing station a person can stand and row facing forward while the forward rower rows conventionally seated facing the aft rower. With this arrangement you are able to have a face to face conversation with the other rower, there is no banging together of the oars, the aft rower can keep course and watch for obstacles, and you pretty much forget about the business of rowing altogether. Also by switching stations from time to time the rowers can work different the different muscle groups associated with the two different positions. By using this technique, two people can pretty much row all day. I'm not saying they won't be sore the next day but it is a very effective way of covering a lot of distance by oar in a Caledonia Yawl.

I didn't build my CY as drawn and sometimes I deeply regret that but Xena is what she is and I've grown rather fond of her in case you couldn't tell. But if you were to build the Caledonia Yawl as per plan, besides much higher resale value, there's another huge benefit to the design. You see, you don't actually have to take her out sailing or rowing or motoring to enjoy her. You can just stand there and admire her. Here is Patina at the 2009 WoodenBoat Mystic Seaport Show. (It's only the mast that doesn't look quite right to me.)

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Patina.jpg

[Dave Wright]

Well as long as you're looking at this type of boat and possible conversions, here's a rather nice conversion that the late Burl Ives used to sail around here in the San Juans. (Was thinking about him because I saw him as a tough gunslinging rancher in an old western a couple of weeks ago):

http://www.kadeykrogen.com/articles/pages/images/LegacyofKadeyKrogen/KrogenLegacy0013.jpg

[JimD]

Well as long as you're looking at this type of boat and possible conversions, here's a rather nice conversion that the late Burl Ives used to sail around here in the San Juans. (Was thinking about him because I saw him as a tough gunslinging rancher in an old western a couple of weeks ago):

http://www.kadeykrogen.com/articles/pages/images/LegacyofKadeyKrogen/KrogenLegacy0013.jpg

I like the cabin.

[Dave Wright]

I like the cabin.


I like that cabin too. Many years ago I saw an article in Yachting Magazine about the conversion. Interestingly, the boat is still around and is currently for sail :


LADY LOU
26’
Custom
Sloop
1963
$29,000
LADY LOU is a special little pocket sailor with a very unique lineage. Originally built by the ELCO Boat Company,
LADY LOU was purchased by Mr. Burl Ives who commissioned James S. Krogen to convert her from her U.S. Navy
Life Boat beginnings to her present configuration as a capable coastal cruiser. Her current owner has spent a
significant amount of time and money to bring her up to her current condition. LADY LOU is solid, salty and
offers excellent value to anyone who appreciates both form and function.

You can see it in the Kady Krogen ads on page 16 of this site:

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:zYyBWrdoBQ8J:www.kadeykrogen.com/newsletters/PDF/2004_03-04.pdf+yachting+magazine+%22burl+ives%22+lifeboat&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgCeQ-dl7cJ3INJaUb4T_G-L_kJWx4ARyemODPI_KoHsKFiYNNeAWnerpq_3ZmFqf7VuhbsNM z2A9Kuq8Dy_MQi7R1-6okeCPf4frPr1bYbQNrK8_VrQ_s22Pb-O_eAUwxVRQpk&sig=AHIEtbSC3IJR3o3HRcqKV7SJNDmj1xhgfg

or

http://tinyurl.com/yjcetht

[JimD]

I like that cabin too. Many years ago I saw an article in Yachting Magazine about the conversion. Interestingly, the boat is still around and is currently for sail :


LADY LOU
26’
Custom
Sloop
1963
$29,000
LADY LOU is a special little pocket sailor with a very unique lineage. Originally built by the ELCO Boat Company,
LADY LOU was purchased by Mr. Burl Ives who commissioned James S. Krogen to convert her from her U.S. Navy
Life Boat beginnings to her present configuration as a capable coastal cruiser. Her current owner has spent a
significant amount of time and money to bring her up to her current condition. LADY LOU is solid, salty and
offers excellent value to anyone who appreciates both form and function.

You can see it in the Kady Krogen ads on page 16 of this site:

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:zYyBWrdoBQ8J:www.kadeykrogen.com/newsletters/PDF/2004_03-04.pdf+yachting+magazine+%22burl+ives%22+lifeboat&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgCeQ-dl7cJ3INJaUb4T_G-L_kJWx4ARyemODPI_KoHsKFiYNNeAWnerpq_3ZmFqf7VuhbsNM z2A9Kuq8Dy_MQi7R1-6okeCPf4frPr1bYbQNrK8_VrQ_s22Pb-O_eAUwxVRQpk&sig=AHIEtbSC3IJR3o3HRcqKV7SJNDmj1xhgfg

or

http://tinyurl.com/yjcetht

Interesting. Many lifeboats don't convert to sailers all that well, but I suppose a lot of that depends on what kind of lifeboat they are.

[Dave Wright]

Interesting. Many lifeboats don't convert to sailers all that well, but I suppose a lot of that depends on what kind of lifeboat they are.

Agreed. I've seen a number of abortions. There's no reason to expect that any of them would be good sailers. Many of the wood ones had scantlings that wouldn't hold up for long term use. Many of the metal ones were plagued by corrosion.

I've drifted this thread too much already but ----The main message I see in that Kady Krogen list of boats for sale is that it's possible to get Ives old boat, a very modest boat, at a fraction of the cost of any of the rest on the list.

It would be fun to survey the boat. It would also be fun to know how much Burl Ives invested ( I mean squandered:)) in the original conversion.

The old movie that jogged my memory of Ives was "The Big Country." Clearly he could have afforded a heck of a lot more boat. He must have had a very "reasonable man" philosophy to chose the boat that he did.

[Dave Wright]

Not a bad way to go; there's lots of sources. Here's just one:

http://www.projectboats.com/navywh1.htm

[peter radclyffe]

mike storer, john welsford, iain oughtred & others could all provide you with a good design

[Tom Mac]

Hey Simon,

6 knots sounds about right. What you need to experience for yourself is the ease at which the little 4 HP four-stroke achieves this speed. At 5/8ths throttle it sounds more like a sewing machine than an outboard motor. The light, efficient, double-ended hull that Mr. Oughtred has designed in the Caledonia Yawl needs very little power to move. There's something called "ghosting" where when sailing there seems to be no wind apparent yet the boat is still sailing and making progress forward. CY's do this especially well. I've even found that with the masts stored, I can sit on the mizzen step and paddle Xena like a big canoe – good for sneaking up on feeding redfish. I have a Shaw & Teeney 5' ash paddle that works great for that.

Some say that a CY is too big to row well but I've found that with two people, two rowing stations and two oars (one for each person) that a CY can be rowed very effectively. By using an extra tall oarlock in the aft rowing station a person can stand and row facing forward while the forward rower rows conventionally seated facing the aft rower. With this arrangement you are able to have a face to face conversation with the other rower, there is no banging together of the oars, the aft rower can keep course and watch for obstacles, and you pretty much forget about the business of rowing altogether. Also by switching stations from time to time the rowers can work different the different muscle groups associated with the two different positions. By using this technique, two people can pretty much row all day. I'm not saying they won't be sore the next day but it is a very effective way of covering a lot of distance by oar in a Caledonia Yawl.

I didn't build my CY as drawn and sometimes I deeply regret that but Xena is what she is and I've grown rather fond of her in case you couldn't tell. But if you were to build the Caledonia Yawl as per plan, besides much higher resale value, there's another huge benefit to the design. You see, you don't actually have to take her out sailing or rowing or motoring to enjoy her. You can just stand there and admire her. Here is Patina at the 2009 WoodenBoat Mystic Seaport Show. (It's only the mast that doesn't look quite right to me.)

http://ford.physics.fsu.edu/Patina.jpg

hello! Wow what a nice looking boat. On the Caledonia Yawl do the plans show the motor mount? It is a big boat to row out to the open area. Going thru narrow canals, a motor is helpfull thanks TomMac

[kenjamin]

A small motor mount is shown in the Caledonia Yawl plans. Most builders include it. Some do not. The mount in the plans is by the aft seat and is intended for a small (2HP to 3HP) outboard. For my boat Xena I had more ambitious motoring in mind for the purpose of fishing. I especially wanted a remote tank for greatly extended range without having to refuel the motor. So I went with Yamaha's 4HP fourstroke. It was the smallest fourstroke I could find with a remote tank. The motor well I designed for my 4HP was moved midship so it could be much larger and the well itself could double as a live well for fishing. At 47 lbs. the motor can be handled by one person but normally two of us drop it into position. This is much easier due to the central location. Two guys wrestling a motor into position or pulling it out there does not effect the trim of the boat and there is less wave action midship. I don't really like outboards much but as far as motors go, the little 4HP Yamaha is quiet, has plenty of reserve power, and has an incredible range with the remote tank. As mentioned earlier, I have a clear Lexan port that can be bolted in place with four large wing nuts that seals the motor well hole flush with the rest of the bottom of the boat. So there's near zero drag associated with the opening for the motor with the port in place and doing its job.

The big disadvantage of having the motor midship is that you can't steer with the outboard but it is very nice steering with the sailing rig's rudder – no vibration on the tiller and you are further removed from the small amount of noise and vibration that the little fourstroke does make. Motoring while standing in the stern and steering with the rudder, Xena feels very much like a proper motor launch.

[Tom Mac]

Thanks , I am keeping that in mind, when I started the next boat, first I am finishing off the Joel White Catspaw. Then some repair jobs. And see what happens. Again thanks Tom Mac

[simonmags]

Hi all, thanks again for all your input, I did have a bit of a look at the motor life boats with the fibreglass hulls and there is something so much more appealing about wood. besides that i am pretty keen to build one as i am slowly reading through the Gougeon Brothers book on boat building.

I see there a few of you here that have built, mike storer, john welsford, iain oughtred & other designs. Do the designs include estimate pricing or do you work that out for yourself?

Not including your own time, do we have estimates on what these boats are worth to build, I know I can work it out per lineal metre once i get plans but am curious now :)

[Clip]

I'm in the process of working on 27ft RCN Whaler, blog is at:
http://www.backyardboatbuilding.org.uk/forums/blog.php?u=9

It is (original hull) very similiar to what is in your photo, it ran with a 20hp outboard in a well, had oars and was sailed. Montague Whaler design.

[kenjamin]

Work out your best guess at price for building and then multiply by 2.:D

Like building a house, the owner/builder has a hard time avoiding a upgrade here and an upgrade there and very quickly things can get out of hand. Don't forget sanding and painting supplies and if you can resist buying a bunch of new tools, you're a stronger willed person than me.

[whaleboater]

Hi All, I am looking for designs and plans to build something like a 19 foot (5.7 meter)motor sailing launch, a double ender. ideally the boat would be simialr to this:
http://n.b5z.net/i/u/10059514/i/boatsofservice/USLSSBMMSB9-web.jpg
courtesy of ( http://www.uslife-savingservice.org/power_motor_surfboats )

Anyone know of an open bow double ender that plans exist for currently, someone else mentioned the 26 US Navy boat which is very similar, but I cannot find plans for either so far. I have tried contacting the US Navy Historians office but have not had any luck trying to find the correct email address for them.

Thanks in advance

Hey I just found a 25 ft doublended in Maine last month and will be going back to pick it up next month. I think it may be an old Navy whaleboat and am looking for information to track its beginnings and would like to find out where you looked for info on these boats. I am sure its a old Navy motorwhale boat as it has the same fittings as my old Coast Guard whaleboat and has the same bronze sternpost setup like the navy boats Ive seen being restored in Port Townsend and the navy whaleboat on the USS Slater in Albany. here are some photos of the boat I found before the seller started a restoration on it. Check it out and let me know if anybody can help me. Shes about 25 ft and 8 ft beam