NGH MIT offsets to be made into lines

[rbgarr]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/06/AR2010020601427.html

[Michael D. Storey]

$2,300 apiece is a ton o' cash for a contemporary print.

[TR]

A graphic artist is going to produce accurate and fair lines drawings? Oh great....everybody's a yacht designer......:eek:

[TR]

I've just had a note from Will Sofrin explaining that he is not a graphic designer but a boatbuilder who has spent ten years drawing boats......hopefully that bodes well for his project and makes my post above mistaken.

[johnw]

The America's Cup defenders have already been done, in a book titled "America's Cup Yacht Designs 1851 - 1986" by Chevalier and Taglang, and nobody has made replicas. I wonder what the other designs will be. Chapelle did a few of the lines, like Dilemma, Gloriana and a 13 1/2 foot racing Woods Hole boat. I don't think anyone built any of those, either.

[Will_Sofrin]

The drawings from the book done by Chevalier and Taglang specifically do not site the same source of data for the drawings of the NGH boats I am developing. For example my plan of Reliance shows ballast keel sections that are a different shape in the body-plan than the sections of the drawing in the book. The drawing of Reliance in the book sites the source of data is from the NYYC measurer who measured Reliance for the cup. Anyone with experience measuring a boat like that and considering it was done in 1903, would need quite a long period of time to accurately collect enough data to create a accurate plan.

[Michael D. Storey]

I remain interested in seeing the prints.

[Michael D. Storey]

Will wrote to me too, in response to my comment earlier in this thread concerning the price. Most of what he had to say I felt was valid, including such things as a limited production of 100 each, as support of the hefty tab.
However, he added this:
The importance of the subject. This helps to ensure that the buyer is right for the product.
This is part of the justification for the price. I struggle with this notion. I would suggest that if I were to want some of these prints, my check would be adequate to ensure that I was right for the product.
I think that the opportunity to show boat lines of less than famous designs is being ignored here for marketability, and to open the buying field. I am sure that we have all seen attractive prints of Cup Racers, and if we are talkin art here, I would have liked to have seen a greater interest in the scope of the collection.
Personally, there is a Twelve Metre, US10, that would have caught my attention, but that is because of my familiarity with her. On the other hand, at 73 feet and with a canoe stern, she is certainly a sight to behold.

[rbgarr]

Did he mention which designs will be drawn up?

[johnw]

The drawings from the book done by Chevalier and Taglang specifically do not site the same source of data for the drawings of the NGH boats I am developing. For example my plan of Reliance shows ballast keel sections that are a different shape in the body-plan than the sections of the drawing in the book. The drawing of Reliance in the book sites the source of data is from the NYYC measurer who measured Reliance for the cup. Anyone with experience measuring a boat like that and considering it was done in 1903, would need quite a long period of time to accurately collect enough data to create a accurate plan.
An accurate plan would be wonderful. Which other boats will you be doing?

[Will_Sofrin]

I will be doing all NGH cup boats. I will be doing a number of one design class boats(I just completed the NY-30, and am presently doing the NY-40) I am also going to be doing a umber of large schooners and steamers. I am also doing two private commissions.

[johnw]

Sounds wonderful, Will. Good luck with your enterprise.

[Steve Paskey]

Will wrote to me too, in response to my comment earlier in this thread concerning the price. Most of what he had to say I felt was valid, including such things as a limited production of 100 each, as support of the hefty tab.

However, he added this: "The importance of the subject. This helps to ensure that the buyer is right for the product."


With all due respect to Mr. Sofrin, if this is what he said, it strikes me as nonsense. What does it mean in this context to say that the buyer is "right" for the "product," and how can that possibly depend on the buyer's ability to pay $2300 for a print? And what's the point of doing a limited edition of only 100, except to *artificially* drive up the price for each one?

100 prints times $2300 each equals $230,000 per America's Cup boat! How much of that will go to the museum, I wonder, rather than the draftsman?

This may seem a bit harsh, but if the prints are going to be priced beyond the reach of 99.99 percent of the population, I don't have any enthusiasm for the project, and I think it's a shame that a not-for-profit educational institution is allowing things to proceed in this way.
.

[Will_Sofrin]

Dear Steve,

I am so sorry you feel so upset about my pricing if you like you could buy one of my smaller class designs for $ 950.00. All of my clients have felt the price is worth the product. Additionally you might want to check the pricing of a signed, limited edition photographic print produced at the same scale I am producing my prints. You will find that my prices are very much in line with those prices. My prices are also based on the amount of work it takes for me to develop each piece, what I am doing is not as simple as you may think. This is a forum and opinions are important, and I respect your position. For you the work is not worth the fee, for others it is.

[Michael D. Storey]

Dear Steve,

I am so sorry you feel so upset about my pricing if you like you could buy one of my smaller class designs for $ 950.00. All of my clients have felt the price is worth the product. Additionally you might want to check the pricing of a signed, limited edition photographic print produced at the same scale I am producing my prints. You will find that my prices are very much in line with those prices. My prices are also based on the amount of work it takes for me to develop each piece, what I am doing is not as simple as you may think. This is a forum and opinions are important, and I respect your position. For you the work is not worth the fee, for others it is.
Prices of photographic prints are all over the universe. I picked up a folio containing 18 signed Giorgio Sommer prints last year for $175.00.
I wonder what MIT's cut of the subject project is, and how much of the price reflects the designers renown. If we were to be able to remove these considerations, we would be on the way to thereby extrapolate the worth of the print makers work, which may be considerable.

[Will_Sofrin]

Michael,

I feel that whatever I say, you will find an argument. So I politely remove myself from this discussion. I do enjoy arguing, but I would much rather be drawing and making things, than worry about defending my integrity. My work will have to speak for itself.

[Alex Low]

Another boring study of those who feel art or 'what have you' is not worth the 'outrage' an artist or their gallery may charge for their work. The market will determine the value as always - and another artist will either sink or swim... does no one else grow tired of this mindless debate?

I support Will 100% in his endeavor and can clearly see that he is very talented - if what he is doing is not worth some monetary recompense then I am not sure what is...

and on a boatbuilding forum no less!!

Alex

[peter radclyffe]

not just any old money will do , right,

[Stiletto]

I support Will 100% in his endeavor

Does that mean you are stumping up for his first print?

Will you post a pic of it here for us ?

[johnw]

I don't see what the problem is if people want to pay for this.

[Alex Low]

Does that mean you are stumping up for his first print?

Will you post a pic of it here for us ?


You know it!

...now just PM me your credit card number...

[Will_Sofrin]

Rum_Pirate,

I visited Kate while she was being built. It was one of the finest experiences while living in the Caribbean. I restored Onawa US-6 built in 1928.

For all concerned:

About my prints, The AC boats are the choice candidates and works now. However I have recently released smaller print of the NY-30. I a just wrapping up the NY-40. The NY-30 is 30" x 48". It is available for $950.00.

[johnw]

You know it!

...now just PM me your credit card number...
Selfish SOB. Have him post it on the thread for all of us, I'd love some of those prints.

Of course, you can respect what Will is doing without having the means or even the inclination to buy the lines. Even a page of the Gutenberg Bible is worth tens of thousands, and though I wouldn't spend that on such an item, I respect those who wish to.

[adam96]

I have little to add, and to be honest, have not read the entire thread. The small bit of information I will add is that there does exist an ACCURATE representation of every NGH hull ever produced in the NGH model collection housed in Bristol, RI as well as set of lines for RELIANCE. They were developed from the model offsets and the Model and were used to CNC cut this 26' scale replica:

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs443.snc3/25430_1323604562738_1009563903_2061963_5492705_n.j pg (http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs443.snc3/25430_1323604562738_1009563903_2061963_5492705_n.j pg)

In my short time practicing as a Naval Architect and Marine Engineer I have been fortunate enough to be involved in several projects replicating Herreshoff designs. I can state from my professional experience that when producing a lines plan based on a Herreshoff model, the information contained in the offsets and construction plans does not suffice 100%. In every Herreshoff replica project I have been involved in we have re-mounted the model to the offset reading machine and taken further measurements where data was lacking or unclear. I'm not saying it is impossible to build a replica from offsets alone - obviously it was the practice of HMCo to proceed with molds directly from the offsets.

I am sure these prints are a very nice interpretation of the offsets, but they are not a compilation of all that data that exists.

In my humble opinion, if artistic prints were to be produced and sold for top dollar, reproduction of the general construction drawings (which, same as the offset interpretation, do not include enough information to produce a replica from) would make fine art and be more representative of the fine yachts produced at the Herreshoff Manufacturing Company.

With regards,

Adam Langerman

[rbgarr]

Adam,

Is that scale replica to be used as a rigged display at the museum?

[adam96]

Adam,

Is that scale replica to be used as a rigged display at the museum?

Yes, but the Museum needs a new atrium first (the model stands about 35' tall).

Good video from St. Tropez last fall with a bunch from onboard the new Herreshoff schooner ELENA: http://vimeo.com/8451943

[Will_Sofrin]

Adam,

Thank you for your kind words. I could not agree more with you that one would need much more than a lines plan (let alone mine) to build a replica of Reliance. Its really kind of silly to think anyone would build a boat like Reliance from only a hand drafted lines plan.

If anyone is interested in building a replica of Reliance, you can contact the Hart Nautical Collection at the MIT Museum for all the design data you would need to build a replica of Reliance. Hart completely owns the entire collection of designs and plans from the HMCo except for the 12 1/2, the S Boat, and I believe one more, Adam do you know if there is another one? The Herreshoff Museum only owns the models, but not the rights to use or distribute the designs.

[rbgarr]

The metal model of 'Reliance under construction' at the Hart Nautical Museum is the most interesting one I've ever seen.

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1999/model-1117.html

[Russ Manheimer]

Dave,

Do you have a photo of the model? What's the museum like?

Russ

[rbgarr]

Dave,

Do you have a photo of the model? What's the museum like?

Russ

I used to but lost the photos during The Great Imagestation Meltdown. The free, open-to-the-public museum is a few display rooms of full and half-models and some display cases of interesting items, i.e., George Owens' original design sheets for the MIT 'Tech' Dinghy. It would take about an hour to see and enjoy everything if you visited.

The extensive nautical collections are in storage and accessible (in one way or another) by contacting Kurt Hasselbalch. They had half-model building classes last winter (2008-9), but I haven't heard of any scheduled workshops again.