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Mis4tun81
02-05-2010, 06:01 PM
Yes,

Last spring I purchased a hot molded L16, as my first sailboat!!!
Everyone I talked to... after they said I was crazy... advised me to put it in the water and sail it before I took on any big projects, which I did. I cleaned it up, painted and varnished a few parts, and sailed it for the summer. (Buffalo, New York, on Lake Erie)
I had a great time!!!! what a wonderful boat to learn to sail on!!

Now that it is inside and there is snow on the ground, I am prioritizing the to do list….
Over the last (almost year) I have done a great deal of research on this boat, there is a great deal more info than I expected to find available online especially here!!!
I have read the appropriate woodenboat articles, and all the threads associated with the L-16 and DLW’s L-24 restoration, I have spoken with other owners, visited the fleet in Chicago, and even have the original plans, and all I know is I'm pretty sure I'm still not sure what I got myself into!!!

I figured before I started picking brains, I would Say Hi.
I know there are others here with L-16's, hopefully you guys are still active.

I look forward to spending time here and with the boat, and enjoy getting my hands dirty.
But for now just wanted to check in!!!


Have a good weekend

johnw
02-05-2010, 07:05 PM
Pictures?

sailboy3
02-05-2010, 07:09 PM
Lucky you. Pictures?

Dave Thibodeau
02-05-2010, 07:46 PM
If yu sailed it all last summer and it didnt sink Id say you have a sound boat

Rich Jones
02-05-2010, 08:40 PM
Been kicking myself for 20 years for passing up a Luder's 16. Love the look of that boat. Have owned a 20" Highlander Class hot-molded sloop. Easy hull to take care of.

Looking forward to seeing your progress. Lots of pictures is what we want to see.

Mis4tun81
02-06-2010, 09:12 AM
Pictures?

I thought you guys would never ask!!!!

I will post some more recent pics when I get to my computer at work.

But these will have to do, it looks EXACTLY like the one you guys were looking last year about this time that was for sale on craigslist. rum pirate posted pictures of it.


http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92142&highlight=Luders

Mis4tun81
02-06-2010, 09:19 AM
If yu sailed it all last summer and it didnt sink Id say you have a sound boat

she is not without her needs, but I just hope I can keep her that way.

hm0316
02-07-2010, 01:41 PM
The Luders 16 is a handsome boat with an interesting history. You are fortunate to have a hot molded version in good condition. If the hull is not delaminating around the sheer and keel you are even more fortunate, since those areas tend to delaminate over time. They can, however, be repaired with modern cold molding techniques. If you do have to repair delamination in the hull around the area of the keel batten, you may find it advisable to replace the keel batten with a thicker and wider piece in order to spread the stress from the ballast keel over a larger area of the molded hull. This will reduce the stress and tendency to delaminate in that area. Also, the floors tend to be undersized and, if you are replacing them, it would make sense to make them heavier.

Good luck. hm0316

Mis4tun81
02-08-2010, 12:07 PM
As promised here's a few pictures:

The first and second are pictures from the for sale ads:

http://www.sailingtexas.com/picluders16aa.jpg

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa195/mis4tun81/101708_luders16.jpg?t=1265648243

The next 2 are more recent once I got her to town!!!

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa195/mis4tun81/jalapeno3.jpg?t=1265648542

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa195/mis4tun81/Jalapenocockpit2.jpg?t=1265648610

And the last is us on Lake Erie

http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa195/mis4tun81/jalapenosailing.jpg?t=1265648773

Mis4tun81
02-08-2010, 12:12 PM
The Luders 16 is a handsome boat with an interesting history. You are fortunate to have a hot molded version in good condition. If the hull is not delaminating around the sheer and keel you are even more fortunate, since those areas tend to delaminate over time. They can, however, be repaired with modern cold molding techniques. If you do have to repair delamination in the hull around the area of the keel batten, you may find it advisable to replace the keel batten with a thicker and wider piece in order to spread the stress from the ballast keel over a larger area of the molded hull. This will reduce the stress and tendency to delaminate in that area. Also, the floors tend to be undersized and, if you are replacing them, it would make sense to make them heavier.

Good luck. hm0316


My biggest project this winter includes stripping the bottom paint inspecting the hull and replacing the floors at the very least, they are the 1 3/8 originals.

hm0316
02-08-2010, 02:09 PM
Very nice indeed. I would recommend 2 inch floors if you are going to relace them. Two questions. Is the boat leaking? Has it been "worked on" before? If it is not leaking and shows no delamination around the keel batten and sheer, you may have to do relatively little to the boat. hm0316

Mis4tun81
02-08-2010, 03:08 PM
There were no noticeable leaks while she was in the water, if the bilge was dry she would stay dry until it rained.

However, there were 2 lingering drips after she was hauled out for for the winter, one between the deadwood and ballast around the location of the forwardmost keel bolt that I'm not really concerned with, and another just forward of the keel that looks to be the location of one of the floors bolts.

I agree 2" floors are what I want to install, depending on availability of Oak (not sure where to find some that thick) I was thinking I might have to laminate thinner pieces to make the 2".

There are no signs of any hull work having been done and most of the interior is natural. however the keel batten does have a short lenghwise crack ahead of the most forward floors that I will rout out and plug with new layers, so it needs a little work.

Once I remove the floors and repair this crack, I was thinking about adding another 3 or 4 laminated layers of 1/8 Mahogany in increasing widths to the top of the batten to add reinforcement along its entire length, rather than replace the entire piece.

Finally the bottom paint is so old and thick that there were a few small paint blisters that when chipped back exposed the wood, this is what prompted the strip off of the bottom paint and inspection.

Thanks for your feedback, I have done a great deal of research but I am still very new to this!!!

Mis4tun81
02-08-2010, 03:13 PM
Also, this is one of the original 36 boats that were shipped to California in 1946.

From what I understand, It lived its entire life in Southern California along the Pacific coast, and until this year has probably never seen a winter, or too many haul out's for an extended amount of time.

hm0316
02-08-2010, 04:27 PM
The original Luders 16's were rock solid, except for delamination along the end grain. If it hasn't delaminated since 1946, I would sail it rather than work on it.

Your idea for adding laminations to the keel batten is a good one. A suggestion--bevel and glue the additional laminations to the the hull as well as the keel batten. The primary problem with the keel batten is that it is too narrow, not just that it is too thin, and does not spread the weight of the ballast keel across a broad enough area of the hull. There may be issues of material compatablity and the use of epoxy (I assume you will not be using resorcinol) since I think the keel batten is oak. There are a great many views expressed on the subject of epoxy by forum members and I am not trying to start a debate, but thought it should be mentioned. Glueing the additional laminations to the mahogony hull will tend to reduce problems of glueing to the oak.

Good luck, hm0316

Mis4tun81
02-08-2010, 06:25 PM
The keel batten is in fact Mahogany as per the Construction Plan's I have seen. So there should not be a glue compatibility issue. You did touch on something I was thinking about, should the additional laminates be glued to the hull or just a snug fit with the hull, and bedded in and screwed. I would not initially suspect the original keel batten is glued in.

I am also aware of the ongoing epoxy debates, but would certainly at the very least only epoxy these additional laminates to the keel batten.

The debate does leave in question how I should refinish the hull when I repaint it, certainly I believe it is universally agreed that glassing the exterior would be a bad idea, but I am unsure of what would be best to put between the wood and the outer layer of the antifouling paint I would choose to use....

Thanks again for your comments.

hm0316
02-09-2010, 03:48 PM
Thanks for correcting me on the composition of the keel batten. There should not be a compatability problem.

I would recommend gluing the additional laminates to the hull as well as the keel batten. What you are trying to do, in addition to strengthening the batten, is spread the weight of the ballast keel over a greater area of the monocoque hull. One of the design deficiencies in the L16 is that, when the boat heels the ballast keel places encreasing stress on the area where the dead wood meets the hull, thereby encreasing the likelyhood of delamination. The greater the area of the hull across which this force is spread the less likely it is that the end grain will begin delaminating. This is, of course, all dependent on the hull around the keel batten being in good shape. If it is delaminated, then gluing additional laminates to it will be of limited use.

With respect to fiberglassing the exterior, I would recommend that you do it, provided that you are putting it over good wood. If you read my other posts you will see that I strongly oppose using fiberglass or other sheathing over traditional plank on frame construction. However, the L16 is a composite hull and does not present the same problems as plank on frame. You don't need the fiberglass for strength but it a single layer my encrease abrasion resistence. Multiple layers around the area of the keel batten may help reduce delamination in that area. I would suggest you drop the dead wood and ballast keel and not try to "wrap" the entire boat and put fiberglass only on the hull. Don't bother with any of this if the wood is soft or delaminated.

hm0316

Mis4tun81
02-10-2010, 04:34 PM
I do see a possible compatibility issue with epoxy if I need to laminate the floors when I replace them, I guess I will look harder for 2" stock. Thanks for pointing that out.

I was not considering fiberglassing the exterior, and I am still reluctant. In addition I do not want to drop the keel.

I was originally however considering using an epoxy 2 part primer, or even 2 coats of slow cure epoxy as a base, followed by an epoxy primer , under the bottom paint. Not sure this is any different from what you suggest, just without the cloth.

Still haven't decided yet, or stripped the paint off the bottom, so I have a bit of time to think.

I assume as a traditional alternative this boat would have originally been primed with red lead, correct?

thanks for your input.

hm0316
02-11-2010, 11:56 AM
The fiberglass is optional and will add little to the strength of the boat. If you are not going to drop the keel, it should definately not be done.

With respect to the paint, the interior was originally bright. If it is painted, it was done at some point after the construction and it is speculative what it would be. The exterior paint, most likely would have contained lead to some extent at least in the early layers. Normal precautions would be advisable in removing it.

Coating the hull with epoxy might not hurt but I am not sure it would help. Others may have an opinion on the subject.

hm0316

seo
02-11-2010, 12:05 PM
This is off-topic, but on ebay there's a Luders 31 foot sloop, built 1947, on Lake Lanier in Georgia:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1947-31-Ft-LUDERS-MARINE-VIKING-CLASS-WOODEN-SLOOP_W0QQitemZ140380905467QQcmdZViewItemQQptZSail boats?hash=item20af5a9ffb#ht_814wt_1009
Or just search "luders" in ebay motors, and it comes right up.

Mis4tun81
02-12-2010, 11:11 AM
The fiberglass is optional and will add little to the strength of the boat. If you are not going to drop the keel, it should definately not be done.

With respect to the paint, the interior was originally bright. If it is painted, it was done at some point after the construction and it is speculative what it would be. The exterior paint, most likely would have contained lead to some extent at least in the early layers. Normal precautions would be advisable in removing it.

Coating the hull with epoxy might not hurt but I am not sure it would help. Others may have an opinion on the subject.

hm0316


I was looking at the epoxy as a waterproof barrier / tie coat to use with VC-17m as my antifouling paint, it is used by every race boat I know in the area and comes highly recommended for these waters.

Interlux recommends VC tar over wood to prep for vc-17m, and I have not heard anything good about VC tar.

My intention was to either use west systems epoxy on the hull, or Interlux interprotect 2000, and the VC-17m over that.

Ill start a new thread when I'm closer to making the decision.

Thanks again.

Don Z.
02-12-2010, 03:02 PM
The interprotect will work, but you can probably get away with CPES...

Mis4tun81
02-16-2010, 04:19 PM
Thanks for your feedback Don. Stay safe in Kabul!!!

I gave thought to CPES and your "get away with comment" keeps me in the air with what would be best.

The boat is small enough that material cost is of absolutely no concern to me and a gallon of whatever I choose will probably do about 2+ coats.

I do believe this would be an appropriate application for CPES since the hull is in good condition, and it would be used as a tie coat between the wood, and the external paint.

But I think my general thought process was if I was going to use CPES I might as well use Epoxy.

I was originally thinking about using west epoxy, then interprotect, then VC-17m and I came to the conclusion this would be way overkill.

Part of me still wants to use Red Lead and bottom paint.......

I want to do whatever is the absolute best for the boat... and I'm not sure I'll ever be sure of what that is.

rbgarr
02-16-2010, 05:11 PM
Ask Jim Elk at elkspar.com

He's restored several coldmolded wood Luders (as you know) and would have reasonable advice. Be sure to mention you sail in fresh water.

Mis4tun81
02-16-2010, 05:17 PM
Thanks for reminding me of Jim. Good suggestion.

I did speak with him when I was researching the purchase of the boat, and if I remember correctly, he fiberglasses the bottoms of the boats he works on.

Since I don't want to drop the keel, I'm sure he can tell me what the best options are.

Thanks Again

Don Z.
02-16-2010, 10:11 PM
The CPES would be better than WEST system as a base. You could follow it up with the interprotect if you wanted... You would be adding weight, so I'd be tempted to just go with CPES. If you went with interprotect, you'd probably have some fairing to do...

luckyguy
08-23-2010, 05:54 PM
Hello Mis4tun81, I have been reading your blogs because I just bought a L 16 and needs some light restoration and lots of TLC!
I would appreciate if you'd like to share info and details of specific restoration. My boat name is "Flight" and was sailed in Newport Beach California,
she is also one of those 36 sent to California years ago, I am living in Marina del Rey, California about 120 miles north of San Diego.
First I'd like to ask you how to get the Boat plans, second did you do already the repairs in the Hull? Hull integrity is first and most important
work to do, in order to do a careful inspection the hull must be stripped of paint without damaging the epoxy base, how did you strip the paint?
Your help as well of others knowledgeables members will be greatly appreciated. Thanks a Lot!

Don Z.
08-24-2010, 02:19 PM
Low resolution plans can be downloaded from the Luders 16 Fleet site: http://l16.org (l16.org). They can probably provide you with high res plans. Call/email and ask.

DLW
10-27-2010, 08:41 PM
any updates? Curious on what you decided to do

Mis4tun81
03-17-2011, 02:07 PM
First,

I know what its like to read a thread started by a noob, get to the end and find no conclusion. I'm sorry I haven't updated in a while.

Second, I just finished a nice detailed update, and lost it when I had to restart firefox.....grrrr

Now the second update attempt... The update is, I have made very little progress.... Unfortunately too many things got in the way, my day job, etc. the workload grew past what I thought I could get done last summer, so I stopped trying and went sailing with friends.

My goal was some pretty basic updates and maintenance, Fix a small leak around a through bolt just forward of the keel, check out some soft spots in the STB aft, replace the floors with some recommended beefier ones and strip the bottom paint and refair and recoat with a known base.

I started stripping the bottom, and I could find no chemical that would get through what I determined was a layer of epoxy. I tried Heat guns, UV paint strippers, scrapers, torches, which were all either too unsafe (fire) or painstakingly slow going and finally decided to go with sanding the bottom paint off using my 7” grinder a backing pad and 36 & 50 grit paper, and once I got close I switched to my random orbital….. going slowly and staying in control so I didn’t bite into the wood below.

When I started the boat was in an indoors storage building at a marina where I could work on it, the cost of keeping it there grew and access was limited and almost nonexistent based on my schedule. So I needed to find a new place for it, which I found, best of all, I could have 24 hour access and it was free.

The only problem was, the boat wouldn’t fit through the garage door…… Knowing how I am I decided that wouldn’t stop me, and that I would be happier completely refinishing everything below the waterline, and that the best thing to do was to pull the keel… Funny how you can convince yourself of these things.

So right now the boat sits next to its keel, 95% stripped of its bottom paint which was 1/8 to 3/16 inches thick in places, and I am still in the process of disassembling, Most of the interior (what little there is) is removed, and half the floors are out and the progress is very slow going because of my schedule and the weather.

I am not sure if the boat will be back in the water this summer at my pace, I just ordered the Gougeons book on boat construction. And now that its warming up a bit I have been spending more time working on her. I did just get notice that the garage I’m in is for sale, motivating me to get her back on the keel as quickly as possible, so maybe I’ll surprise myself.

I’ll try to update more often, and maybe add some pictures, but the space it is in is pretty tight. I’m heading back tonight to do the rest of the sanding, and probably get a few more of the floors out.

Wish me luck.