Gaff rig vs Bermuda

[JimD]

I've just ordered plans for a 22 foot pocket cruiser, the Glen-L Amigo, full keeled and well ballasted. The plans offer a choice between gaff rig or Bermuda. I imagine the bermuda would be more practical, but the gaff is, ya know, so salty and shippy. Would anyone care to offer an opinion or personal experience comparing the two rigs?
jimd

[Ian G Wright]

Originally posted by JimD:
I imagine the bermuda would be more practical, but the gaff is, ya know, so salty and shippyjimdYou'ld imagine that, would you?
Well well,,,,,,,

I have to walk the dog and get to a few other domestic chores, but later I'll be happy to sort out your mind for you,,,,,,,,,,

IanW

[JimD]

Ever since I was a child I've had a vivid imagination, Ian smile.gif Looking forward to your skilful guidance at your earliest convenience...
jimd

[Ian G Wright]

Well,here you go then,,,,,,,,,,

Gaff or Bermudan,,,,,,,,? It depends,,,,,,,
Bermudan looks simpler, fewer halyards and so forth, but in fact is harder to trim ‘just right’ than gaff.
Popular opinion has it that a gaff rigged boat will not get to windward as well as Bermudan. Nonsense, if the gaff rigged boat uses a tops’l so that the mains’l plus tops’l luff is no shorter than the Bermudan luff there will be no difference.
A gaff cutter will be faster off the wind, no question..
Gaff rig looks better, no question.
Gaff rig is more controllable, you can slow down and keep control with greater ease.
Remember, you are not restricted in sail area, more sail lower down gives greater power but less heeling moment. For a quick comparison of Gaff versus Bermudan on the same hull look at
http://fp2k.interalpha.net/vertueowners/images/TheBoats/Black%20%26%20White%20Pics/Black%26White.htm
Up to you,,,,,,,,,,,,
End of episode 1.

IanW. tongue.gif

[ 09-28-2002, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Ian G Wright ]

[Tom Lathrop]

Here goes this old argument with no solution again.

Arguing about the rig is a little bit like arguing about the color of paint for a boat.

The thing that makes the boat go is the sail. What holds it up is unimportant as long as it holds it in the proper shape. It has been proven a gazillion times that the best shape for a foil is an ellipse.

Which rig does the best job (for a soft sail) of getting the sail into that shape?

Probably a mast with a curved upper secton and fully battened sail. Neither a normal bermudian nor a gaff do a great job of that. A gaff with a topsail is pretty much identical to a bermudian except for the gaps and extra rigging.

When left to their own choices, open class racing sailors ALWAYS choose some form of the bermuda. The round-the-world guys sailing a mostly offwind race are all fully battened bermudians.

Make your own choice based on whatever logic suits you. Your first post shows your preference. Go for it. Most of us will take a second look at a gaff more often than a bermudian if that's any help.

[Victorious]

Originally posted by Tom Lathrop:
[QB]Here goes this old argument with no solution again.

Arguing about the rig is a little bit like arguing about the color of paint for a boat.

QB]You trying to say color is not important? :confused:

[Ian G Wright]

Originally posted by Tom Lathrop:

When left to their own choices, open class racing sailors ALWAYS choose some form of the bermuda. The round-the-world guys sailing a mostly offwind race are all fully battened bermudians. .1.
Jim is talking about a 20ft wooden(ish) cruising boat, not an Ocean 60 or a 30knot Tri,,,,,,

,,,,,,and take a closer look at a fully battened main,,,,,,, gaff rig with extra gaffs, not so?

With a 20 footer why not build two rigs, one of each, and see what you like most?

IanW

[JimD]

Thanks for all the input. I dont' know if I'd put a topsail on her, seems that would be substantially more cloth than the design calls for, but the traditional charm alone might make it worth a try. Maybe I'll run the idea past Barry at Glen-L. I must admit the gaff is a looker, the bermudan version just another forgetable little marconi boat. Doubt if I'd try both rigs. The mast seems to be stepped significantly farther forward on the gaff version to compensate for the difference in CE, I presume
jimd

[John B]

I wouldn't bother with a topsail on a 22 ft boat. I'd peak it up to about 18 or 20 degrees and go sailing.You could peak it to 10 or 15 but you lose some of the look doing that in my opinion. You'd then have 1 extra halyard over a bermudan. Stick to 2:1 purchases to cut down on line.If the jib is small you'll go as well as one to windward too unless you're talking some kind of ultimate raceboat( I have no idea what a Glen l is). You'll go better off the wind unless the other guy sets a kite.
Gottapic?

[Meerkat]

Ken Hankinson is reputedly the designer of Glen-L's boats. Ken Hankinson's site (http://www.boatdesigns.com/)

[JimD]

Originally posted by John B:
I have no idea what a Glen l is).
Gottapic?Thanks for the advice, John.
Glen L Witt founded a well known California do-it-yourself boat building outfit over 50 years ago. Check out the website for Glen-L Marine Designs to see the Amigo. I've chosen it because it seems a very seaworthy boat for 22 feet, full keeled, about 1800 pounds outside ballast, standing headroom inside, but towable with a pick up truck and within my budget to build. Let me know what you think
jimd

[dale o]

JimD: You should read the two articles written for Wooden Boat by Iain Oughtred in issues 74 and 75 (Feb 87 and Apr 87) about the gaff and gunter rig. ( You can get back issues from Wooden Boat.) These are probably the most definitive articles on the subject and written by an expert.
The 2 most important points I got out of the articles were 1). In high winds under reefed sail you have less weight aloft with the gaff/gunter rig, hence less overturning moment,
and 2) The short mast of the gaff/gunter rig enables small trailer sailers to stow the mast and rigging within the length of the boat while trailering, or in emergency conditions.
Best Wishes.

[ 09-29-2002, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: dale o ]

[imported_Dutch]

I got know opinion on this one

[John B]

Danged if I can find it. Amigo you say.....?

Another comment ( which I'm sure will provoke some discussion),. If you accept that in ultimate terms a gaff rig is less efficient than a bermudan(I believe that), then when you design your sailplan you will compensate for the lesser efficiency with more sail area. might be 10 to 20 % more depending on how much the blood is rushing to the head.
"oo look at that cute old gaffer.... um she's comin up a bit quick ..... turn the motor on Ethel!"," fang it.. fang it now Ted"

[Ian G Wright]

Originally posted by John B:
Danged if I can find it. Amigo you say.....?

Another comment ( which I'm sure will provoke some discussion),. If you accept that in ultimate terms a gaff rig is less efficient than a bermudan(I believe that), then when you design your sailplan you will compensate for the lesser efficiency with more sail area. might be 10 to 20 % more depending on how much the blood is rushing to the head.Quite right(ish) But if we are talking about a cruising boat OR a boat not restricted by handicap then the rig can be as large in area as we like. At maximum the heeling moment of a bermudan boat (high aspect ratio) will become unaccepable before that of a low aspect Gaffer, so gaff rig can,if the owner wishes,carry more sail area for a given hull.
I have sailed my gaff cutter rigged Vertue with and against bermudan Vertues for 12 years. With a yard top'sl that gives me a mains'l luff about the same as the bermudan version. Performance to windward , bermudan versus gaff,is dependent on skill at the helm only. We've swapped boats to prove it. Miss a wind shift and you will be stuffed what ever rig you favour.
Without tops'l, effectivly first reef, I need to bear away 5(ish) deg.
Fom a close reach to a broad reach in other than light airs my gaff rig is faster, sometimes much faster. Running,,,,,? Ah well,,,, I dont own a modern spi, so a boat that does will do better than me.
Remember please these are cruising boats sailed by cruising skippers. I wouldn't dream of advising the keen racing owner of a lightweight flyer about his rig. They have enough problems already.

IanW.

[BillBudd]

While probably not having the knowledge or experience of some of those who have offered opinions/information, I can give you the perspective of a relative newbie to gaffdom.

I have a 22' gaff rigged sloop. Very pleased with the performance. I have no top, and would not recommend one, tho I believe I have seen them rarely on some of the smaller gaff-rigged boats. Seems like a bit of extravagence for the labor both of construction and operation for the payoff of performance in this size boat.

Good Luck

[John B]

Ian, without getting the scale rule out, those sail plan links you posted look to my eyechrometer to bear out what I'm saying. Sail area of the gaff looks larger than the bermudan. Is that right?

[Ian McColgin]

Wrong Ian replying but:

Other things being equal - same hull, same ballast - the gaff sail plan is most likely to be larger as it's heeling moment is lower and the smart desiner will take advantage of that to give her a little more horsepower.

This is why the gaff rig takes line honors off the wind unless the macaroni boat pops a 'chute to make up for the otherwise smallish sail area.

Some hulls do like an advanced rig better - a Lasar with a gaff rig would look silly and sail poorly as would an advanced composit maxi like 'Il Sogno Bagnato e Veloce.'

Some boats can sail well rigged either way - as many of the Virtue predecessors.

Some classic hulls - the Wianno Sr is a good example - would take at least huge rearranging to make any sense of a triangular rig as the stresses would require a vastly different approach to staying the mast, maybe pull it back a bit which makes trouble with the CB trunk and might wring out the garboards and so on and on.

It is most often the case with good designs that one rig or the other is really right for the boat. Even if the designer gave an option, the good designers always gave a preference.

G'luck

[John B]

I had a look again at the vertue link .It's a good example of what I'm saying.( what we're all saying I think)
Ian W's Patience ( gaff rig)is listed as 406sqft working sail. The Choy lee Vertue site lists the Vertue as 300 ft and Vertue II as 350 ft. 350 x 15% is 402 so that's within the parameter I put before.
I don't disagree with anything said here. I'm just making the point that if you want on the wind parity or better with bermudan you need more sail area in gaff. and then, once you've done that, you'll be handing out some lessons off the wind.( as you do Ian.)

We had a hot racing season in 2000/1 (classics racing, no kites) There was a lot of talk about making spinnakers legal after we won it with our gaff rig. LOL. We fought that off fortunately.

[dale o]

So JimD, are you gonna race this Amigo around Alberta, across the prairies or over the Rockies, or trailer it on West to the Big Water?

[Ian G Wright]

Originally posted by John B:

Ian W's Patience ( gaff rig)is listed as 406sqft working sail. The Choy lee Vertue site lists the Vertue as 300 ft and Vertue II as 350 ft. 350 x 15% is 402 so that's within the parameter I put before.
.That's about right though 300 sqft sounds under sized, 'normal' mast head genny is around 204 I think and I'm sure the bermudan main is bigger than 100sqft,,,,,,,,,!
I must look up the plans again,,,,,,,,,,I've got drawings of four bermudan rigs and three gaff plus my own version of gaff.
It's been some time since I had them all out for a good look. Oh, how about a Vertue with a gaff yawl rig,,,,,,,? No? Me neither.

IanW.

[JimD]

Originally posted by dale o:
So JimD, are you gonna race this Amigo around Alberta, across the prairies or over the Rockies, or trailer it on West to the Big Water?LoL! Well they call the prairie the Sea of Grass! Yup, that's part of the reason trailering is important. I hope to retire to the west coast but in the mean time here I be...There are a few little pools around here to sail in, tho not much interested in racing :D From the drawings I think there's too much wetted surface and not enough waterline to get anywhere fast in her

John B, sorry to put you to so much trouble looking for the Amigo. If you've any interest in trying again, from the Glen-L site there's a menu on the left, choose Design Catalogue, choose Sailboats, scroll down a dozen boats or so to the Amigo, see the specs, choose Photographs for study plans and photos of Amigos already built

I'll probably design a topsail for her myself, for going to windward or just for the photo op. The total sail area from the Glen-L stock plans is about the same for the gaff and bermuda versions, only nominally greater on the gaff.

[Ian G Wright]

Jim,
I've just found the Glen-L site and Amiga. Very nice boat and IMHO would really go well under a low aspect Gaff rig, indeed will probably benefit from the extra drive. Any way I can persuade you to consider a cutter (two headsail) rig? The mast position is no problem, when you draw alternatives and plot centers of effort you may wish to extend the bowsprit a little,,,,,,,
Anyway,,,,,, the very best of luck.

IanW.

[john welsford]

Originally posted by JimD:
I've just ordered plans for a 22 foot pocket cruiser, the Glen-L Amigo, full keeled and well ballasted. The plans offer a choice between gaff rig or Bermuda. I imagine the bermuda would be more practical, but the gaff is, ya know, so salty and shippy. Would anyone care to offer an opinion or personal experience comparing the two rigs?
jimd

[john welsford]

Originally posted by john w:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JimD:
I've just ordered plans for a 22 foot pocket cruiser, the Glen-L Amigo, full keeled and well ballasted. The plans offer a choice between gaff rig or Bermuda. I imagine the bermuda would be more practical, but the gaff is, ya know, so salty and shippy. Would anyone care to offer an opinion or personal experience comparing the two rigs?
jimd</font>[/QUOTE]I have had feedback from owners of my Penguin designs, a 22 ft centreboard sloop with cabin and a fairly hefty lead stub keel for stability. There are both bermudian and gaff versions and the feedback is that the gaffer is faster on all points of sail except hard on the wind where the triangular main points very silghly higher. Even there the gaffer is usually going faster so usually gets there quicker.
I believe that a lot of the mythology about gaff rig is generated by old boats with stretchy cotton sails, tired hulls and soft rigging. Given modern sailcoth rigging and good hulls under them they should have a slight advantage ( not in every case) due to a lower centre of effort allowing the boat to carry more sail area in a given wind strenght.

John Welsford.

[John B]

Nice to see you here John.
That's exactly the rationale I used when converting my old boat back to gaff. New cloth, new technology lines etc.
In your design, do you have the same sail areas or did you boost the gaff area?

[JimD]

Originally posted by Ian G Wright:
Jim,
I've just found the Glen-L site and Amiga. Very nice boat and IMHO would really go well under a low aspect Gaff rig, indeed will probably benefit from the extra drive. Any way I can persuade you to consider a cutter (two headsail) rig? The mast position is no problem, when you draw alternatives and plot centers of effort you may wish to extend the bowsprit a little,,,,,,,
Anyway,,,,,, the very best of luck.

IanW.Ian, I've thought about the cutter idea, too. Maybe I will, not sure. Would look grand, I'd say. Anyway, it will probably be a year or two before I'll have to make that decision as I will have limited time to devote building.
jimd

[john welsford]

To John B, I design to a given heeling moment , lower centers on the gaffer mean a larger sail area, and the shape of the main means more (proportionately) area in the main and less in the jib.
I use four sided sails a lot, balance lug, standing lug with sprit boom, gaff etc, one I dont use is the Gunter because it is not easily reefed . It blows a lot where I come from the Americas Cup Challenger series races were called off yesterday as it was blowing 25 knots and rising, I would have been out there if sailing on that day so need to have really effective means of shortening sail.
I got a bit distracted there, I started out to say that the four sided sail is hugely adjustable for shape which is an advantage but it can take quite a while to learn enough to get the best out of it.
JohnW


Originally posted by JimD:
I've just ordered plans for a 22 foot pocket cruiser, the Glen-L Amigo, full keeled and well ballasted. The plans offer a choice between gaff rig or Bermuda. I imagine the bermuda would be more practical, but the gaff is, ya know, so salty and shippy. Would anyone care to offer an opinion or personal experience comparing the two rigs?
jimd

[John B]

I know what it's like John, I'm launching at okahu and taking a boat up the harbour to westhaven for a mate today ,25 gusting 35 and miserable is the forecast .Am cup racing is already called off.

Would you agree that my parameter of 10 to 20% more area for a gaff rig compared to bermudan is a fair guideline?

[ACB]

Mytica, an 18 foot cabin boat, began with a gunter lug rig, when I bought her she had a bermudian sail and I rerigged her as a baby gaff cutter complete with yard topsail. She sailed rather well like that.

[JimD]

ABC, I am thinking of designing a jib-headed topsail, thought it would be simpler than any of the yard versions but I have no experience with gaff rigs/top sails. Anything you can add about yards vs no yards?
jimd

[Mark Van]

Since you will very rarely sail beside another amigo, you will never know what rig is better, so don't worry about it. Get the gaff rig, so you don't look like every other boat out there. Besides, the Amigo looks like it should have a gaff rig anyway.