PDA

View Full Version : "Hogan's Heroes " .



PeterSibley
02-04-2010, 07:57 PM
I' ve just seen a rerun of Hogan's Heroes on TV and I was surprised at the way the Germans were portrayed , inept , almost loveable .It was in strange contrast to the way my father's generation felt about them and even more so , the Japanese ......both excellent soldiers, but there was no love lost .

It made me wonder why the show was such a success ,flying as it did in the face of so much anti Axis feeling ,even then in the 70's .

Any ideas ?

boatbuddha
02-04-2010, 08:11 PM
I' ve just seen a rerun of Hogan's Heroes on TV and I was surprised at the way the Germans were portrayed , inept , almost loveable .It was in strange contrast to the way my father's generation felt about them and even more so , the Japanese ......both excellent soldiers, but there was no love lost .

It made me wonder why the show was such a success ,flying as it did in the face of so much anti Axis feeling ,even then in the 70's .

Any ideas ?

Because it was funny. Werner Klemperer who played Klink was Jewish and his family had fled the Nazis in 1935. Klemperer agreed to play Klink on the condition he never won. He was also great in Justice at Nuremberg.

Breakaway
02-04-2010, 08:19 PM
My Grandfather served in WWII, survived Omaha beach. He LOVED that show.

PeterSibley
02-04-2010, 08:20 PM
I wonder how a Japanese (rather than German ) version would have run ? An impossibility ? Did the US sympathise with Germany in some way , because they were recognisably " like us" ?

seanz
02-04-2010, 08:24 PM
Any ideas ?

Weeell..........Hogan's Heroes doesn't bear a lot of analysis, what sit-com does?
But if you look carefully, most of the (POW camp reality) real stuff is there, it's just glossed over.
And if you don't agree with me, you'll be sent to the Russian Front.
;):p

Oh, and for added weirdness......check the bios. of the actors that played Shiltz and LeBeau.

Phillip Allen
02-04-2010, 08:28 PM
it pre-dates PC

Phillip Allen
02-04-2010, 08:29 PM
Weeell..........Hogan's Heroes doesn't bear a lot of analysis, what sit-com does?
But if you look carefully, most of the (POW camp reality) real stuff is there, it's just glossed over.
And if you don't agree with me, you'll be sent to the Russian Front.
;):p

Oh, and for added weirdness......check the bios. of the actors that played Shiltz and LeBeau.

I believe Shultz was in the German army at one time

PeterSibley
02-04-2010, 08:32 PM
How about the Japanese version now Phil ...we're all PC now eh ?

seanz
02-04-2010, 08:34 PM
I wonder how a Japanese (rather than German ) version would have run ? An impossibility ? Did the US sympathise with Germany in some way , because they were recognisably " like us" ?

Not a cultural thing perhaps.......
Complaining about stingy rations can be funny.......having to suffer quietly while you starve to death, not so much.

I knew a bloke that survived his time in one of the stalags (there was a rather large escape from it) , he was quite unwell while he was there but he survived. He wouldn't have survived a Japanese camp.
:(

PeterSibley
02-04-2010, 08:35 PM
Seanz ,a good thing he wasn't Russian .

seanz
02-04-2010, 08:39 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Banner

What a truly messed up period of history..............

seanz
02-04-2010, 08:41 PM
Seanz ,a good thing he wasn't Russian .

No, there's nothing funny about Germans and Russians in that period.
He was a charming chap and a good Kiwi bloke.....and went to his grave feeling guilty for bombing Italian towns.
:(

PeterSibley
02-04-2010, 08:42 PM
Chaos and horror are far too trite .

PeterSibley
02-04-2010, 08:43 PM
No, there's nothing funny about Germans and Russians in that period.
He was a charming chap and a good Kiwi bloke.....and went to his grave feeling guilty for bombing Italian towns.
:(

Yep ,an unwilling terrorist .There was a lot of it going around .:(

Phillip Allen
02-04-2010, 08:47 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Banner

What a truly messed up period of history..............

thanks, I'll remember this time

Art Read
02-04-2010, 08:51 PM
"I wonder how a Japanese (rather than German ) version would have run ?"

__________________________________________________ ___

Check out the "Fuji" character on "McKale's Navy".

LeeG
02-04-2010, 09:01 PM
then there was Bob Crane

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzY5DuH91xk

ishmael
02-04-2010, 09:12 PM
I wouldn't take it too seriously, Peter. By 1970 the men and women who lived that time were ready to make fun of it.

The Bigfella
02-04-2010, 09:24 PM
An interesting diversion. Dad was in Stalag 383 for most of the war. I recall seeing the book on the camp "Barbed Wire" among Dad's books... but I don't know where it is now. Probably in a box in my basement.

I've just found it online.

http://www.pegasusarchive.org/pow/S383/BarbedWire/BarbedWire5.htm

... along with a whole heap more info and photos.

goodbasil
02-04-2010, 09:29 PM
I've been told by both Germans and people who have holidayed there that you can turn on the TV almost any night of the year and watch reruns of "Hogan's Heroes." Apparently it's about the most loved TV show over there.


(Do we have any people in Germany?)

The Bigfella
02-04-2010, 09:48 PM
(Do we have any people in Germany?)

Yes, we do. But we don't mention the war.

PeterSibley
02-04-2010, 09:54 PM
I have an undeveloped theeory that it says a lot about our ability to gloss over horrors , when it's expedient .I can't imagine it set in a North Vietnamese camp .

The Bigfella
02-04-2010, 09:56 PM
If all we focused on was horrors, we'd spend all our time in church. Life's there to enjoy. Get on with it

PeterSibley
02-04-2010, 10:14 PM
If all we focused on was horrors, we'd spend all our time in church. Life's there to enjoy. Get on with it

If we spent more time aware of the horrors of war maybe we'd do it less .

The Bigfella
02-04-2010, 10:28 PM
I doubt it

PeterSibley
02-04-2010, 10:54 PM
I respect the Germans WAYYYYYYYYY more than the japs ...

Why ?

seanz
02-04-2010, 11:01 PM
It's a car thing, isn't it?

It must be cars, because when you add it all up, there wasn't a great deal of difference between the two with regards to their treatment of POWs.

PeterSibley
02-04-2010, 11:20 PM
I suggest reading a few oral histories of Japan at war ...it was extactly the same as Germany, a fascist state totally under the control of the military.No choice at all .



Actually, it is kind of personal ... nothing to do with cars ... my grandfather's family fought for the Nazis ... and I have read daily diary ... and others in his regiment ... they fought because their families would be EXECUTED if they did not!

They HAD no choice ... not that they were perfect ... not by any means ...

That's just how it was under Hitler!

I can respect someone working under those conditions ... versus suicide bombers in MITSUBISHI Zeros ... that's all ...

PeterSibley
02-04-2010, 11:39 PM
In some cases I'm sure it was forced compliance in Japan but weren't there many cases where it was patriotism/religious fervor due to the fact that their Emperor was a living god?

Doug
Indeed , in most countries simple patriotism is sufficient to keep most everyone in line , especially if there is an overwhelming propaganda effort starting in primary school .Japan is a special case too ,a place where it has never been a good idea to be outside the norm ,reading 19 th century Japanese fiction (in translation of course ) makes it very obvious that it was a very hard country ....being outside theclan support system meant you were essentailly dead or a bandit .

It ran very close to the malthusian edge .

Obedience was a very good idea ....especially if you had family .

Cuyahoga Chuck
02-04-2010, 11:51 PM
The Japanese have a cultural aspect that is close to the "pure blood" aspect of the Nazis. They see themselves as unique and members of a superior clan because they share "Japanese" blood. It still may be inculcated into them today. They have steadfastly refused to include in their history texts anything close to the evils they actually perpetrated in WWII.
One thing is certain. Their "pure blood" doesn't make them superior in the real estate game.

seafox
02-04-2010, 11:55 PM
I think with the germans there was a common culture. while the japaneese who had never signed the geneva convention had absolutely no respect for those who had surendered.

my father and all 5 brothers were US navy durring WW2. they were lucky only family loss was a cousan, larry survived the wasp sinking, killed in 45 in a bar fight. but I never felt or heard hatred toward the Japaneese from any of them but another uncle who was a civilian on the home front he still felt they were enemy.

When my dad was getting on the train for boot camp one other inductee was being shunned. he was a nesi, first generation Japanese American. my dad knew him from baseball made sure he was not completely shunned..

on the other end of the war. my mom was in nursing training with two sisters of frank Nishiguchi, ( ruby was one of the ladies names I just remember franks name because he was head of the utah farm union for many years) I guess it was in 1945 frank and his brother took celery seed to california to sell and the two sisters and mom went along. while there they stayed at mom's aunts place and were welcomed and not a rude word was said but the other guests took one look at the japaneese faces and stayed in their rooms till they had left cause my great aunt was a doctor who had been interned with the other guests staying at her home for three years in the phillipines.

one other thing I once met a man who's car liscence read 6panzer. turned out his father had been a party member & penmundiee rockit scientist. at 13 through 16 he had served with the 6th panzer. after the way his father had come to america was brought the family with him.

just remembering a military joke. at west point summer camp the new plebs had been asked if any of their fathers faught at normandy and some raised their hands then asked to drop hands for those whos fathers were army then navy then army airforce one hand was left and the DI asked which group his father had fought with. "
"coastal defence forces sir"

jerryrichter
02-04-2010, 11:57 PM
I wonder how a Japanese (rather than German ) version would have run ? An impossibility ? Did the US sympathise with Germany in some way , because they were recognisably " like us" ?

Ernie Pyle, a correspondent who spent most of the war in Europe and went to the Pacific after Germany surrendered, noted that the attitude of US fighting men toward the Japanese was significantly different than toward the Germans. To the point of regarding the former as not completely human. By the time he was in the Pacific he had seen a lot of war up close. He wrote one piece after spending a few days on a cruiser showing total contempt for the Navy as living a life of luxury while soldiers and Marines fought in mud.

Regarding Hogans Heros. When in Germany on a business trip several years ago that was a very popular program on German TV. I asked one of my German counterparts about that and he said most Germans liked it because it showed that the Nazis were really rather comical and bumbling, much easier to take than a true picture.

PeterSibley
02-05-2010, 12:18 AM
WHATEVER, petersibley ...

I would not be here if my grandfather did not kiss the hitler bottom ... regardless of the japs ... perhaps they were the same, petersibley ... if I am NOT aware of that, then I do apologize ...

But at least the German soldiers did not do suicide bombings ...

IF I am wrong, please let know ...
I can't give you a link or reference , but suicide bombing on the Eastern front was not unusual by either the Germans or the Russians .It got very ,very nasty .

PeterSibley
02-05-2010, 12:31 AM
What is not to love?

You have swagger sticks, monocles, overfed krauts, and beautiful blond secretaries for the commandant.

Whatever turns you on .

bobbys
02-05-2010, 01:41 AM
My dad was a builder after the war, Came from a German speaking parish in NJ.

Sponsored Germans from Germany to come as carpenters.

I grew up with German Vets as my buddies.

They would very rarely want to talk about it.

They all did say they would have been shot if they did not go in the army.

One was a Russian prisoner, He said he was starving, They stopped the train and he dropped on the grass to eat the grass.

They train for years in a trade over there.

I think based on the ones i knew they were all better carpenters, Machinists, stone masons then Americans..

I miss them calling me.

Roww Bert, Dumbkolf:)

The Bigfella
02-05-2010, 01:51 AM
I can't give you a link or reference , but suicide bombing on the Eastern front was not unusual by either the Germans or the Russians .It got very ,very nasty .

I haven't found that yet Peter... but the Russians did use dogs trained to seek out food under tanks. They managed to take out 300 German tanks that way... but things went awry in one battle and they lost some of their own and stopped using them.

http://xmb.stuffucanuse.com/xmb/viewthread.php?action=attachment&tid=4686&pid=13541

doorstop
02-05-2010, 02:00 AM
While I enjoyed Hogans Heroes I think I enjoyed "Allo 'Allo even more.

seanz
02-05-2010, 02:14 AM
While I enjoyed Hogans Heroes I think I enjoyed "Allo 'Allo even more.

Ah yes, a nice, simple, funny story about the French Resistance.
:rolleyes::D


Actually, it is kind of personal ... nothing to do with cars ... my grandfather's family fought for the Nazis ... and I have read daily diary ... and others in his regiment ... they fought because their families would be EXECUTED if they did not!

They HAD no choice ... not that they were perfect ... not by any means ...

That's just how it was under Hitler!

I can respect someone working under those conditions ... versus suicide bombers in MITSUBISHI Zeros ... that's all ...


Okinawa.

PeterSibley
02-05-2010, 02:15 AM
I haven't found that yet Peter... but the Russians did use dogs trained to seek out food under tanks. They managed to take out 300 German tanks that way... but things went awry in one battle and they lost some of their own and stopped using them.

http://xmb.stuffucanuse.com/xmb/viewthread.php?action=attachment&tid=4686&pid=13541

I read a lot about the Eastern Front at one stage Ian ,stopping the other guys tanks and bunkers was paramount ..enter suicide bombers.The Reds were under huge pressure to advance , the Germans under equal pressure to stop them .

ishmael
02-05-2010, 06:31 AM
I haven't read about it in awhile, but it's a damn good thing Hitler was obsessed with Uncle Joe and Communism. Good in a provisional sense. It certainly wasn't good for the soldiers or the civilians caught up in it. But if, instead, Hitler had focused his megalomania on consolidating his hold on Western Europe, and invading England, the world would likely look a lot different today.



Hitler was a strange little man. Some claim he was a master hypnotist. Clearly a past master at manipulating the masses. William Shirer, a historian and writer, was at some of the Nuremberg rallies before the war. No Nazi Mr. Shirer, he reported that in the fervor that man unleashed it was all he could do to keep his hand at his side and not Sieg Heil.

A cautionary tale. While the political landscape is much different than in 1936, humans aren't.

bamamick
02-05-2010, 07:54 AM
I have watched an awful lot of German television over the years and I have never seen Hogan's Heroes one time.

German's are very proud of the wars they fought in the 19th century, when they came together as one nation from a myriad of small states (the states are still there, they just operate under one government), but of the wars of the 20th century you will not find much of a trace.

Mickey Lake

The Bigfella
02-05-2010, 09:00 AM
Hitler wasn't going to have the chance to concentrate on Western Europe. Stalin had been quietly mobilising for years and was just about to attack Germany when Hitler invaded the USSR. The Soviets at the time had no defense plans, only attack... and were routed initially.

Hitler had lost any chance of winning the war when he went defensive in December 1941 after failing in his advance on Moscow. The Soviets just rolled right over the top of him.

Here's something that I bet you didn't know. At the start of WW2, the American Army was the 17th largest in the world..... about the same size as the Romanian Army.

ishmael
02-05-2010, 09:19 AM
I was familiar with the figures for the US army. It measured in the tens of thousands, I want to say 60,000 under arms, when Hitler invaded Poland. Our navy a different matter.

Interesting thought, that Hitler going into central Russia was pre-emptive. Stalin was another megalomaniac, just a bit more circumspect.

Dens of thieves and brigands, all.

bamamick
02-05-2010, 01:51 PM
Yeah, and wasn't the Polish army just as big as Germany's? The only problem was that when the Poles referred to cavalry they were talking about horses and not tanks.

This is a subject we never really breach at work. I did have one young German guy ask me how long the youth of that country would be made to pay for the actions of their parents and grandparents, especially in regards to the relationship between Israel and Germany. I thought about it for a long moment and looked at him sadly before saying 'forever'. After all, will anyone ever let white southerners from the United States forget that we were responsible for the decades referred to as the 'Jim Crow era'? I don't think so, at least not for a long time. And maybe that's not such a bad thing. You have to remember, all of us, because we all know what will happen if we don't.

I have a lot of German friends and colleagues.

Mickey Lake

switters
02-05-2010, 02:17 PM
I think Mr. Sibley makes an interesting point, one shared by American historian Stephan Ambrose. I remember reading in one of his books that the American GI related much more with the Germans than even the French after the war. They felt they had more in common with the germans as far as taste and orderliness. The Japanese were treated with disdain because they would kill their families, in one section of Okinowa by throwing them off of a cliff into the sea.

From wikipedia:

Due to fears concerning their fate during and after the invasion, the Okinawan people hid in caves and in family tombs. Several mass deaths occurred, such as in the "Cave of the Virgins", where many Okinawan school girls committed suicide by jumping off cliffs for fear of rape. Similarly, whole families committed suicide or were killed by near relatives in order to avoid suffering what they believed would be a worse fate at the hands of American forces; for instance, on Zamami Island at Zamami Village (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zamami,_Okinawa), almost everyone living on the island committed suicide two days after Americans landed.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Ryukyu_Islands#cite_note-7)

This was due to some propaganda about american soldiers and marines. And then there was the propaganda told the americans about the japanese.

As a young marine who joined for so many reasons that had nothing to do with patriotism I found myself at the cave of the virgins one day, reading the plaques. It was very chilling.

purri
02-06-2010, 03:50 AM
Okinawans do not identify as mainland Japanese as history and ethnography shows. (cf: Taiwan)

ishmael
02-06-2010, 06:31 AM
Micky,

I had a great teacher of biology in high school, Leonard Skalski. A second generation Polish American. He, in his off moments was often heard to remark about his ancestors trying to fend off the Nazi Panzers with horse cavalry. A's for bravery, flunking grades for sense.