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Bear's Oil
09-01-2000, 09:44 AM
Way back in the #52 WB, I saw an ad for a 22' scow sloop designed by H. Chapelle. Apparently, this is NOT the design pictured in "Boatbuilding" because it appears to have some deadrise. Does anyone know of any other scow he (Chapelle) may have designed?

Or... anyone familiar with any similar scow sloop designs by ANYONE in the 22' to 25' range??

BrianCunningham
09-01-2000, 10:14 AM
Parker Marine lists this 33ft design

http://www.parker-marine.com/sco33.jpg
http://www.parker-marine.com/scow33page.htm

He might have smaller ones as well.

ishmael
09-01-2000, 11:40 AM
Pretty sure Parker's design has some dead rise too. There is a small scow in that sorta field guide to wooden sail boats carried by WB. Named "Banjo" if memory serves. I'm not aware of a small scow by Chappelle, but check his, "American Small Sailing Craft" ??? as I remember there are a number of scows in there, though not his designs. Best of luck.

dadadata
09-01-2000, 02:17 PM
Scows ...

well, Chapelle's drawings would be at the Smithsonian (Ship Plans Catalog) or possibly at the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum. CBMM has some Chappie stuff that is not published and is not help by the Smithsonian.

He did a bunch of scows. I assume that most of what the Smithsonian holds is styuff that appeared in YACHTING and in various "How to build..." books in the late 40s - 50s.

Phil Bolger did a 25 or 30 ft scow-schooner. It's in Boats with an Open Mind. Using this as a model building a sloop would be a no-brainer.

Actually any scow is pretty much a low- or no-brainer, that's the appeal and was the appeal back when they were the dumptrucks of the coasting trade.

Chapelle shows several working scows in "American Small Sailing Craft" of course.

Sucher's "Simplified Boatbuilding: Flat Bottom..." has several scows as well. His plans are available thru the Smithsonian.

Kunhardt's original "Small yachts" -- not the Woodenboat reprint, which has pretty much all of the interesting stuff otherwise -- diagrams a "scow yacht" which is more or less a halfdecked daysailer. Somewhere I have an image of his sketch.

Ian McColgin
09-01-2000, 02:50 PM
Capt Pete Culler drew two cool scows - one a periauger ketch rig and one, that's been built and used for work, a scow schooner. Looks finastkind. Like you could charge across the flats on a tight reach between Oak Bluffs and Edgartown, ignoring the channel, tack under the bluff and charge up into the Cape Pogue Bay with you load of pilings and planks for some rich dude's new dock . . .

ishmael
09-01-2000, 04:07 PM
Yeah, ya gotta love 'em. Sorta a in your face, Mack truck driver, this is what I do, I'm really good at it (capacity, shoal draft, cheap to build,) and I don't care whacha' think attitude.

I also thought that taking an existing larger design and scaling it down would be a simple matter, but didn't know where Larry was at with such things. Best of Luck!

Oh, and Ian, what the devil is a periauger ketch?

[This message has been edited by ishmael (edited 09-01-2000).]

Bear's Oil
09-01-2000, 10:48 PM
Was the Pete Culler scow "Vintage" by any chance? It was pictured in a WB book "Wooden Ship". If so, I'm in love with that boat. Parker sent me the study plans for the 33 footer. Its a tad large for my purposes. Scaling it down would be a chore. My boatbuilding experience amounts to a couple of Glen L runaboats built about 3 decades ago.
I feel the scow would be a great boat for a poor man. Shallow draft, easy (relatively) to build. My fantasy is going down the inland waterway to Lake Okeechobee, across Florida on the Coloosahatchee and ending up in my daughter's backyard in Ft. Myers.
My interest also stems from the fact that my great grandfather crewed on a Lake Erie Scow, "Reindeer", hauling lumber in the summer after the crops were in.

ishmael
09-01-2000, 11:12 PM
Larry,

I'm seeing a project that this forum will take on like a hive of bees swarming a field of spring flowers. Don't hesitate to keep asking, even if the bees don't come right away.

Anthropologist! (I peeked) Did you ever evince an interest in the Indian mounds in Newark Ohio? Know a Bob Alrutz? Just a chance.

And really, keep after it here. This place can help you refine, and build, what sounds like a special project. Best to you, from a fellow Ohioan.

P.S. In case you don't know, this forum is slow right now. Soon, the building season gets underway. The problem then will be sorting the wheat from the chaff. Usually, a consensus arises that can be discerned.

[This message has been edited by ishmael (edited 09-02-2000).]

Kermit
09-03-2000, 12:45 PM
Ah, scows! Gotta love 'em! Every time I see a scow scooner I'm tempted to take early retirement, sell everything, and spend the rest of my days sinking into genteel poverty aboard one of these fine craft. They truly DO have the appeal of a classic cab-over truck. Let us know more of this project!

ishmael
09-03-2000, 07:27 PM
Ah Kermit,

I wanna go there too. What sense of responsibility keeps you from it, and why? The image sings like so few others.

Maybe if this thread continues, a discussion of what one would need in such a scow, to do just that, would be fun. Maybe we'll share anchorage down in the delta some pleasant November evening. Compare notes on building and handling.

Has anyone seen the Chinese lug rig on that Parker scow? Larry?

Bear's Oil
09-03-2000, 08:57 PM
To clarify my interest in the scow schooner/sloop....I can only afford one boat and I like to fish. With the shoal draft, I can sit over rocky points and chase small mouth bass. With the room a scow affords, I can lounge in a lawn chair and troll for steelhead or walleye.
My interest in sailing leans toward leisurely. If I want to race, I can crew almost every Sunday or Wednesday evening and the owner always buys the beer. It seems the scow type would fill all my needs/wants except for water skiing. But then a 90hp Merc in the motor well??
But mostly , its the look of the thing...the Mack Truck Idea. Like dating that girl in high school who everyone considered "plain"...the one who turned out to have more personality than the whole cheerleading squad.

ishmael
09-03-2000, 09:20 PM
Like it Larry, and think a scow is just the thing. You'll just have to give up water skiing from your own boat. Doubtless, with such a fine craft, you will have more invitations for water sports that you can honor.

Dave Hadfield
09-03-2000, 10:07 PM
I love the look and space of a good-sized scow.
Trouble is, can you imagine working into a 4ft chop with one, under power or sail? I know they did it -- there were working scow fleets in the great lakes and along the east and south coasts, but I'd like to travel with one and see what they're really like.
Not much chance though.

ishmael
09-03-2000, 10:32 PM
Yeah, it's true,

They must stagger and spout more that a little in the conditions you mention. What can ya do? Live with the limitations, avoid as well as possible said conditions, and count the money saved for days fishin' and lounging from a truly livable sailing home. It's all a compromise.

I wonder how the deadrise design of Parker might overcome some of the problems?

Ian McColgin
09-04-2000, 06:42 PM
Ah, there's the sneaky secret of a scow under sail. Well heeled over, she presents a sharp form to the wave.

ishmael
09-04-2000, 07:25 PM
Yes, Ian, yes, but still not as sharp as some.

Bear's Oil
09-04-2000, 07:52 PM
When I first broached (bad word choice) this subject, some months ago, I heard from Fritz Koschman who sailed the 22' Chapelle scow sloop for a number of years in Alaska.
He said something like,"Downwind was fantastic, reaching was great fun, beating best avoided, worst was into a chop, under power". Of, course this was the flat-bottom version.

Which brings me to rigs. We aren't too imaginative here in fibreglass land (We are the home of Tartan Yacht and C&C). The junk rig? Gaff? I'm sort of partial to the sprit/gaff rig used on some of the "Egret" sharpies. Just intuitive, I guess.

Also, someone brought up the idea of scaling down plans. Anyone have any experience with this? I suspect that there is more to it than simply using a particular ratio.

Kermit
09-04-2000, 10:47 PM
Okay, the bug has bitten a few out here in e-land--so who can direct us all to some reading that will tell of the history of scows, especially where and how they were used. There's that tantalizing couple of pages in some book I had out of the library a few months back of a scow in the mid-40' range that I think was built in Maine in the 80s. Anyone know of it and it's whereabouts? Isn't there a scow design in one of Gardner's books? Or was it Bill Garden's books? I know my first reading exposure to them was an account of scow schooners used in the San Francisco Bay area and the Sacramento delta. We need more, especially with the heavy reading and fantasizing season coming on.

Ishmael--it's that raging protestant ethic I've struggled with all my life. I'm around to being able to see a maximum of another five years of laboring for wages (my one Labor Day comment there). I've actually had SWMBO suggest that she could see her way clear to renting the house, storing the stuff (mostly books and tools), and living an itinerant life on a sailing scow like Parker's large one. She'd be willing to live on bivalves for a couple of years. I just haven't shed the father-is-responsible-for-us-all notion. Is there a 12-step program I can join? Is this site it? Help me, brothers, I'm just in from a great day of sailing, and want to go back! As Maynard G. Krebbs was often heard to say, "WORK!?!?"

And we still don't know what a periauger ketch is...

[This message has been edited by Kermit (edited 09-05-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Kermit (edited 09-05-2000).]

Bear's Oil
09-05-2000, 09:26 PM
Kermit... I do know a bit about Lake Erie scows: Commerce, on the Great Lakes, took off at an amazing rate. Early on, there were few skilled ship builders in the "west" and barn carpenters found it easier and quicker to build the scow type. Most were flat bottomed and a few were deadrise hulls, even fewer were round bilge. Some had their bows so skillfully built that they could only be recognized as a scow at short range (this is from Chapelle, I forget what paper).
Also, the river mouths at ports like Conneaut, Fairport Harbor and Ashtabla, Ohio had a tendency to silt up regularly. If the river bank was convenient, ships were often dragged over the sand bar with horses or oxen. Not a good idea with a keeled schooner.
I suspect that the smaller hay scows, or scow sloops were used for commercial fishing, in the same manner as the Ohio pound net sharpie.
Along with the barn carpenters and sailor/farmers came a unique nautical lingo.
Lake ships had a front, back, right and
left. Heck with port and star board! Rails were fences and you went down into the hold on stairs. The Captain's Wife cooked supper in the kitchen and you relieved your self in the "terlet" (usually a bucket).
But this is about building....anyone have experience with the junk rig???

holzbt
09-06-2000, 03:43 AM
A great book on the subject is "Scow Schooners of San Fransisco Bay" by Roger Olmstead.As for plans- Harry Sucher has plans for a 30' scow schooner in his building the flat bottom boat book. Bolger's scow in Boats With An Open Mind is a few feet shorter I think. Culler has the 32' scow that he designed for himself and the 45' Vintage that was built by Brooklin boatyard. This boat was built as a yacht and sails very well according to several friends who tried to catch it with a 65' schooner one day near Bar Harbor.This boat has sailed to the Bahama's at least once that I know of and was on the chesapeake last I heard.Culler also drew a flat bottom, square decked version. The scow that was sailing around New England in the early 80's was probably the Lily. She was sloop rigged and plumb sided but was partially rerigged as a schooner, although this was never finished. She has been hauled out for about 10 years and is for sale. A friend looked at her last year and said that she was still in pretty fair shape, he thought she could go back in with a few weeks worth of work.There is also a 37' Chapelle scow for sale somewhere near Eastport Maine.

TomRobb
09-06-2000, 07:46 AM
Larry, can you even imagine what L.Erie's vicious steep chop would be like in a scow? Yike!

holzbt
09-06-2000, 07:52 AM
I almost forgot one of the best designs. Tillicum, a 40' scow schooner in William Garden's "Yacht Designs".

ishmael
09-06-2000, 08:29 AM
Not in any way to dispute the observations about a scow trying to beat into a lake Erie chop. The only sailing I've done on the lake was in a Cape Dory typhoon. I found the short chop, coupled with short hull heavily ballasted in a the keel, gave a wicked uncomfortable motion. At the time I remember wishing for a centerboarder with inside ballast. I imagine something a bit longer would have made for an easier time going forward also.

bythelake
09-06-2000, 01:13 PM
Couldn't find a periauger ketch, but here's what was described as a periauger yawl: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/bessie.gif

I suppose if you move the mizzen forward, you get the ketch version?

Bear's Oil
09-06-2000, 04:01 PM
Fortunately the "vicious, steep chop" isn't a regular occurence on Lake Erie. Not to diminish the seriousness of it, but the best "cure" for it is to sit at the dock,that evening, and listen to the Indians. Usually, uncomfortable seas on Erie are uncomfortable in ANYTHING.
Thanks for more information on "Vintage". I fell in love when I first saw her picture. She started this whole scow thing.
Parker's 33 footer is the choice, at this time. Anyone have any experience scaling down plans. 25' is about my limit. Or is this just not a practical thing to do? Or if we could chop 20' off "Vintage"???

[This message has been edited by Larry W. LaBounty (edited 09-06-2000).]

Smacksman
09-06-2000, 04:13 PM
I am biased, I know, but I love my NY sloop. Draws 18" board up and knifes through a short chop. Stops dead though after the third big wave - can't have light weight AND punching ability. 24' x 8'-6", no ballast and H. Chapelle liked them. Check out some pics on http://emma.datablocks.net/wb/wb.htm By the by, what exactly is the definition of a scow?

ishmael
09-06-2000, 05:21 PM
Larry,

There are some formulae, I believe, that will make for a fairly simple reduction in hull form, 33 to 25 ft, but I wonder about such things as the accomodations and internal framing. I think you'll find that with the glued ply technique all of the internal bits, from bulkheads to berth flats are integral to the structure. The reworking of these, though not impossible, will be a bit laborious. Not having seen anything but the study profile I could be wrong in my basic premise.

As far as the formulae go: I've had conversations with a friend who's much less mathematically challenged than myself, and also knows a thing or two about boat design. If memory serves it's quite do-able, but durned if I know the math.

Keep in mind, the reduction from 33 to 25 ft is going to make for a much smaller boat as the progressions in volume to length ratios are geometric. I think that's the right way to say it Best of luck, and I'm sure someone will come in here and correct and amend...Ishmael

Kermit
09-06-2000, 06:33 PM
I see by his website that Parker's 33' scow sloop has a ketch rig as an alternative, although it's not pictured.

Dave 'doc' Fleming
09-08-2000, 05:37 PM
Yup, Bill Garden's Tillicum is really salty looking. Imagine expanding the cabin into the hold area forward of the centerboard case.
Don't recall any accomodation for power but I don't think that would be any problem.
Bye the bye, the New Zeelanders were quite fond of Scows too. I mean real cross the ocean scow schooners. These had a shaped bow not blunt as in the SF Bay typ.
Two books out there on them. One, 'Neath Swaying Spars' and other title escapes me at the moment but try entering ***scow or scow schooner*** in a search engine and see what all pops up.
Got to get that second book just so I can figger out how they did that transition from hard chine to shaped bow
Say, didn't Chapplle have one under the name of Pasc......gundalow in American Small Sailing Craft?
Did repair work on the San Francisco Bay scow Alma, long ago when still an apprentice. Lots of wood in them things.
dave
"hey folks read the Tales yet?" www.pipeline.com/~djf3rd (http://www.pipeline.com/~djf3rd)
Tales of a Boat Builder Apprentice

Doug Lidz
09-11-2000, 10:32 PM
Hi Larry,
I'm the new guy here so I'll weigh in with my two cents. There was a Scow Schooner built by Joel White and his yard in Maine in the mid eighties I saw it riding at anchor right off his launching ramp not long after it was launched it was a beauty, I know that it was written up in Wooden Boat at the time but I can't remember exactly when. But when I read about a scow I think more about the very flat dish shaped things the the E-Scows evolved from single mast sloop rigs that were very fast and extremely shallow draft. I am no expert on the subject at all though I do have a memory of seeing one in Barneget Bay New Jersey when I was a kid sailing around in my ten foot pram. It was long,low,lean, and black and flew by me like an express train on the lightest of airs. There was no wind to speak of and this thing just became a speck in nothing flat. Not very informative but...

I think a vessel that can enter a shallow bay and travel like a bat out of hell in a light breeze and could get you to the bass in no time would be really fun.

dadadata
09-13-2000, 09:40 PM
<<
Couldn't find a periauger ketch, but here's what was described as a periauger yawl:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/bessie.gif
>>

Hey. You're talking about my ancestors.

Well, a periauger rig is sort of off by itself, though we seem to call 'em "cat yawls" nowadays. On small boats I don't think it's worth arguing over what's a ketch or yawl.

You can punt and call it a "sharpie rig". That's pretty much what I do. Our forebears were not obsessed about terminology. On the Chesapeake a ketch was called a Bugeye, so take your pick <grin>.

As long as you can move the leeboard or CB area around, a scow hull should accommodate almost any sail plan known to mankind.

And there's absolutely no reason to get very neurotic about 'em. Just make a model that looks good to you and scale it up into a scow of the size you want. Olmstead's book, mentioned before, will quickly convince you that almost any scow hull can sail. Rocker is good, but not necessary.

There are a fair number of scow plans in the Smithsonian Plans collection (Chapelle scows and HAMMS plans). There may be a few scows in the Chapelle items at Chesapeake Maritime Museum. Don't know. Maybe I'll look sometime. CBMM has some unpublished Chapelle items.

Probably lots o pictures of them at the Mariners Museum.

CP Kunhardt shows a scow yacht in "Small Yachts" but more on that later when I add that boat to my Cheap Pages.

I looked for scow sloop or scow schooner in the card catalog at Mystic's Ship Plans collection and was astonished to find el-zilcho. They were astonished to find out that I had found el zilcho.

dadadata
09-13-2000, 09:40 PM
<<
Couldn't find a periauger ketch, but here's what was described as a periauger yawl:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~fassitt/bessie.gif
>>

Hey. You're talking about my ancestors.

Well, a periauger rig is sort of off by itself, though we seem to call 'em "cat yawls" nowadays. On small boats I don't think it's worth arguing over what's a ketch or yawl.

You can punt and call it a "sharpie rig". That's pretty much what I do. Our forebears were not obsessed about terminology. On the Chesapeake a ketch was called a Bugeye, so take your pick <grin>.

As long as you can move the leeboard or CB area around, a scow hull should accommodate almost any sail plan known to mankind.

And there's absolutely no reason to get very neurotic about 'em. Just make a model that looks good to you and scale it up into a scow of the size you want. Olmstead's book, mentioned before, will quickly convince you that almost any scow hull can sail. Rocker is good, but not necessary.

There are a fair number of scow plans in the Smithsonian Plans collection (Chapelle scows and HAMMS plans). There may be a few scows in the Chapelle items at Chesapeake Maritime Museum. Don't know. Maybe I'll look sometime. CBMM has some unpublished Chapelle items.

Probably lots o pictures of them at the Mariners Museum.

CP Kunhardt shows a scow yacht in "Small Yachts" but more on that later when I add that boat to my Cheap Pages.

I looked for scow sloop or scow schooner in the card catalog at Mystic's Ship Plans collection and was astonished to find el-zilcho. They were astonished to find out that I had found el zilcho.

Bear's Oil
09-14-2000, 06:55 AM
dadadad:
Come payday, I'll order the HAMMS and 30' scow plans from the Smithsonian. Of course, I already have the 22' plans from HIC's "Boatbuilding". Still hoping for 25' (trailerable) and some deadrise. May end up with the fore and aft skeg configuration.
Fooled around with a Mickey Mouse CAD program and sort of tacked the sprit/gaff rig from Parker's Egret onto the 22' HIC scow. Crude, but It looks cool! Will it work????

Bruce Hooke
09-14-2000, 05:22 PM
Just a quick note on scaling down plans. The safest approach is just to reduce the frame or station spacing by a little bit (say 10% max.) and leave the other dimensions alone. Even then, however, the whole accommodations plan will probably need to be reworked unless you are 10% shorter than the average person and can find 10% narrower stoves, heads, etc. In addition, the rig may need some adjustment as well in both height and fore-and-aft length, which will raise some issues about how much sail is appropriate on the shortened boat.

Going further and reducing all the dimensions, especially by a substantial amount, quickly amounts to what is essentially a new boat design inspired by the original design. Just to take an example, shorter boats tend to be have a lower length to beam ratio (i.e., the are wider in relation to their length) to maintain stability so a 10% reduction in length might mean a, say, 7% reduction in beam in one particular case. Since this sort of thing repeats itself in almost every major dimension and then goes on to affect the scantlings and, of course, the accommodations, I think you can see where this leads...

All of that said, I would hazard a guess that if one were inclined to venture down this path a scow is probably one of the safer models you could try in the sense that scows are inherently very stable and high performance is not usually the point. However, even there, I suspect that a scow may be like a skiff in the sense that it is pretty easy to knock out a skiff that will float and get you across the harbor but designing a good one that looks nice and moves easily is a challenge for even the best designers.

I am not trying to say don't do it, I just wanted to provide a heads up as to what you are getting into to anyone headed down this path.

- Bruce

ishmael
09-14-2000, 07:06 PM
Thanks Bruce,

I'll try to store that away in a stickier memory cell. Al my hem-in and haw-in, made me wonder if I should be keepin my mouth shut.

I like what you said about the scow being amenable to such things. I could see playing with some formulae, looking at similar sized designs, imagining things that probably aren't there, and coming up with a usable boat. I know, (as well as one can without having been there) that minus the formulae, thats the way they were originally built. In other words, by guess and by God. Best, Ishmael

Dave 'doc' Fleming
09-18-2000, 12:12 PM
Just a FYI re: that second book on Scows.
Title: Phantom Fleet
Author: Ted Ashby
ISBN #: 0-7900-0295-7
Copyright: 1993

Good read and has outboard profile and deck view of one of the New Zealand scow schooners.
Alas no lines drawings nor table of offsets.
dave www.pipeline.com/~djf3rd (http://www.pipeline.com/~djf3rd)
Tales of a Boat Builder Apprentice

John B
09-19-2000, 11:54 PM
just for interests sake ,The n.z scows were derived from the great lakes scows and became the workhorses of the coastal economy here. There's still a few originals ( 2 with original rigs that i know of) on the water with a scale replica being made for the national maritime museum a few years ago. on a sober note, another scaled down replica was lost in the 80's( with loss of life ) in half a gale.If i recall it rightly there was concern expressed at the time over the type and it's qualities.( and the adaptation of a working style boat into a yacht type application)
most of the originals were deck laden with a few hold scows developing later in the time line. they were schooner or ketch rigged and often had 2 centreboards so they could play with the c.l.r..

dadadata
09-20-2000, 10:01 AM
<<
Come payday, I'll order the HAMMS and 30' scow plans from the Smithsonian. Of course, I already have the 22' plans from HIC's "Boatbuilding". Still hoping for 25' (trailerable) and some deadrise. May end up with the fore and aft skeg configuration.

Fooled around with a Mickey Mouse CAD program and sort of tacked the sprit/gaff rig from Parker's Egret onto the 22' HIC scow. Crude, but It looks cool! Will it work????
>>

Trailer is as trailer does. 8 feet would be maximum beam, length to suit, and you could build relatively lightly with stitch and glue plywood. Traditional scows were not light.

Bolger's "Martha Jane" and a couple designs by Jim Michalak show the practical envelope for a tralerable scow-type hull.

Jim would even design a hull for you, I'm sure -- http://www.apci.net/~michalak He has one cool scow (small) which resembles nothing so much as a waterborne Humvee.

Robert Laine has a free hull design program called "Carene" which runs under Windows. It will give you any number of simple hulls and is very easy to use. I've spent many hours having fun making hulls with Carene. Some deadrise skiff hulls dont' seem to want to happen but for scow-like shapes and sharpies in general it's fine.

A slightly more complicated program is available from Greg Carlson, I forget its name. Also free.

As long as you're willing to move the leeboards around (or centerboard) you can put just about any rig on a scow hull. Cats, sloops and schooners are all documented in various treatises on working watercraft. No doubt cat-schooners (periauger rig) as well.

Or given a fixed CB location, play with rake of masts and length of sails on the foot.

Gulf Coast scows tended to have some deadrise to the hull fore and aft. If you search on "Port Isabel" or "Matamoros" and U Texas at Austin you should find some collected photos from about 1910 which show some scows of that sort. I don't have the URL on hand.

Take a Chesapeake skipjack or two, cut 'em in half amidships, and join the two sterns and darn if you don't have a gulf-style scow.

The book "Tidecraft" by Russell Fleetwood has some info on scow type boats of the southeastern USA, though more from an historical and marine-archaeology viewpoint. Lots of great pix anyway.

Email me if you want xeroxes of Harry Sucher's drawings. I have them somewhere.

dadadata
09-20-2000, 10:05 AM
<<
Just out of interest, is there any difference between scows and sailing barges? In the Thames they built a type called the swim-head which I think was similar in hull form to the American scows?
>>

A swim-head barge would be closely equivalent to an American scow. Sailing barges in general might be more closely analogous to the schooners called "Chesapeake Bay rams".

Unloading on the hard was not a typical American thing.

American scow hulls varied quite a bit by region and by builder; don't know of any systematic study beyond the Olmstead book mentioned earlier.

UncleRalph
10-13-2000, 09:57 PM
It is somewhat smaller than you were asking for, but Sam Devlin has a 20 ft. scow-type hull called the Lichen. See http://www.devlinboat.com/dclichen.htm

Bob Cleek
10-14-2000, 12:44 PM
If you are serious about building a scow, start with the HAMMS "Albertine" lines available from the Smithsonian. Having done considerable research on SF Bay scows and having had a small part in the publication of Roger Olmstead's "Scow Schooners of SF Bay," I can confirm that "Albertine" is practically a sister to "Nettie" which was the fastest of them all, given the results of the old Master Mariner races. You can scale her down some. Without pulling the lines out of my files, I think she was 74' between perps. Note, however, that the sheer in the HAMMS lines is apparently incorrect, being depicted as a flat line. Contemporary photos show that she had considerable sheer and looked quite nice. You will find some scow plans in HAMMS. There is considerable material in the SF National Maritime Museum J.Porter Shaw Library at Ft. Mason, SF. Particularly photos. Some photos are also available from the Smithsonian.

No, Virginia, a scow isn't any easier to build than any other honest ship. In fact, the framing and keel details are pretty unique. The frame heels are locked into the keel with a unique locking joint, for instance. Of course, given the size of the vessel, you are talking major league engineering and mass in the centerboard assembly. Unless you are going to build a shed on deck, you aren't going to get much headroom. A seventy five footer is only going to have about four and a half feet of headroom at the max. The option for a cabin of any size amidships is limited, since the structure isn't designed for a hole that big in the deck.

As for sailing abilities, "real" scows do sail very well, relatively speaking. Keep in mind that these guys weren't in a hurry. You can get them to point, but they were never intended for round the bouys racing! They spent a lot of time running up sloughs and creeks with shallow draft cargoes and were as like as not towed up with a horse pulling alongside the bank.

Smaller cargo scows (not talking the racing "scow," another animal entirely) were not as successful. The SF Maritime Museum's "Alma" was at the lower end of the spectrum, actually. The scow, like the Peterbuilt, relies heavily on its weight. Momentum is what scows are about. No problem banging into the chop on SF Bay.. they were made for that, but you got to have some weight behind you to do it right. If you want to have a workable scow schooner, or sloop, you are going to have to commit to something around fifty or sixty feet minimum and build her out of a lot of solid timber. She will also need plenty of inside ballast. This isn't so much to counter the sail area, as in a conventional keel boat, but rather to give her the weight needed to shoulder the seas. If you build a lightweight plywood scow, you are just going to get blown around in all directions and go nowhere. Love to see more built! Go for it!

Bear's Oil
10-14-2000, 08:01 PM
1. I have "Lichen" study plans. Its a neat little boat.

2. I am serious...74' is a tad beyond my trailerable specs, however. I only have a Ford Ranger. I am firing off an order to Smithsonian...I may get the "Albertine" info for interest's sake. It looks like a "Tuckerton" New jersey Garvey, at this point. 26', lines in ASSC.

You are right, "real" scows were not necessarily easier to build. Speaking of Great Lakes Scows, Chapelle said, "....some had their bows so skillfully built that, except at close range, the vessel could not be recognized as a scow".

McMichael
10-14-2000, 09:03 PM
Smallmouth?, walleye?, racing on Sundays and Wednesdays?, fellow Ohioan?. Gang if I was hoping to get into the bonus round my first guess would be "the western basin". "Fess up Larry", am I in the bonus round?

Bear's Oil
10-15-2000, 09:41 PM
Close Mc....but no cigar. Central Lake Erie between Fairport and Conneaut. Why??

1. Family has been here about two hundred years.

2. Western Basin is too pricey.

3. We have Steelhead (running now) in addition to Walleye and Smallmouth.

McMichael
10-16-2000, 09:22 AM
It just sounded like the area. I was born in Sandusky and have lived in the area all my life. Dock and sail out of Sandusky, still.
You're right about pricey. Pitcher of beer at "the islands" is about $25 nowadays. But anyway..... having lived around Lake Erie I don't have to explain her demeanor to you, but after this past "summer of storms" on the Lake, I'd be even more leary of a planing hull design than ever before. I know you boaters "up east" have considerably more depth, but was this summer as rough and tumble for you as we had it in the western basin? I was present(and in safe harbor) for three unforseen fronts that carried sustained winds 40-50mph with gusts hitting EIGHTY. I have never sailed on a scow design of any kind, and granted, I wouldn't want to be caught out in the aforementioned conditions in a displacement hull boat either, but I do hope I pop back up if and when I get knocked down.

McMichael
10-16-2000, 09:22 AM
It just sounded like the area. I was born in Sandusky and have lived in the area all my life. Dock and sail out of Sandusky, still.
You're right about pricey. Pitcher of beer at "the islands" is about $25 nowadays. But anyway..... having lived around Lake Erie I don't have to explain her demeanor to you, but after this past "summer of storms" on the Lake, I'd be even more leary of a planing hull design than ever before. I know you boaters "up east" have considerably more depth, but was this summer as rough and tumble for you as we had it in the western basin? I was present(and in safe harbor) for three unforseen fronts that carried sustained winds 40-50mph with gusts hitting EIGHTY. I have never sailed on a scow design of any kind, and granted, I wouldn't want to be caught out in the aforementioned conditions in a displacement hull boat either, but I do hope I pop back up if and when I get knocked down.

ishmael
10-16-2000, 03:13 PM
Bob,

I've just gone around Robin's barn with Dave about this on e-mail. I am willing to bow to superior experience, but I quibble with the word "easier." With no signifigant shape in the sides, and often a flat bottom, wouldn't scows be "easier" in the sense of a bunch less shaping of frames and planks? Not less skill mind ya, but that skill turned loose on a simpler shape looks a whole bunch faster. Hence the scows popularity where shape didn't meet ultimate seaworthyness? Other factors like volume in tow, I still think scows went together faster and "easier" for a given volume of hull. Correct me, as I lay prostrate in abeyance.

All of them took skill we are trying to keep alive, eh? I feel the question is like comparing a garvey to a whitehall. Would you start your apprentice on the whitehall or the garvey? Best http://media4.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/wink.gif Ishmael

Kermit
10-17-2000, 07:35 PM
In Bill Garden's comments on his TILLICUM (means "friend" for those interested) he has this to say:

"Construction of the scow TILLICUM utilizes simple framing and structure, but, in spite of the relatively easy box shape, she will still tax the ability of an amatuer builder. The time and material cost should not be underestimated, but a man used to working with tools can tackle the job with a minimum amount of shipbuilding skills."

I suspect the "minimum amount of shipbuilding skills" part had a lot to do with building them, especially in San Francisco when gold could be had for just wading up a creek. How ya gonna keep 'em down in the shipyard...

All I need now is a few thousand board feet of old growth "Oregon pine," several kegs of galvanized boat nails, and a shop that would allow me to build and turn over a hull that's 41 x 17 x 2-3.

dadadata
10-24-2000, 09:00 PM
***
> If you are serious about building a scow, start with
> the HAMMS "Albertine" lines available from the Smithsonian.


Oh please, Bob. We had plenty, and plenty, of scows built on the Chesapeake which were real enough and did not require lines from the Smithsonian.


> No, Virginia, a scow isn't any easier to build than any other honest ship.
> In fact, the framing and keel details are pretty
> unique. The frame heels are locked into the keel with a unique locking joint,
> for instance. Of course, given the size of the vessel, you are talking
> major league engineering and mass in the centerboard assembly.
> Unless you are going to build a shed on deck, you aren't going to get much
> headroom.

I don't think you're doing people a favor here. There is the "scow hull form" and there is the "San Francisco scow" you're talking about. I can pretty much guarantee that scows were built without your legendary scarf, somewhere in the USA.

Easier to build than conventional hull shapes? Of course they are. In plywood, even easier. And so on and so on.

> Smaller cargo scows (not talking the racing "scow,"
> another animal entirely) were not as successful.


Larry wants to sail, not carry hay for horses. When you run scows down to a small size you start having to design a garvey, and garveys sail just fine whether lightly built or not; the garvey is really something very close to the <gasp> jon-boat.


> If you want to have a workable scow schooner, or sloop, you are going to
> have to commit to something around fifty or sixty feet minimum and build
> her out of a lot of solid timber. She will also need plenty of inside
> ballast. This isn't so much to counter the sail area, as in a conventional keel
> boat, but rather to give her the weight needed to shoulder the seas. If you
> build a lightweight plywood scow, you are just going to get blown around in
> all directions and go nowhere. Love to see more built! Go for it!

You're doing people a disservice here. I can show you yacht-scow designs much smaller than this hypothetical minimum, and by reputable designers, and covering the era from about 1885 to 1985. Some have not been built, others have. Others documented by Chapelle, etc., etc., etc.

Phil Bolger's AS29 and AS39 are essentially scows with a touch of sharpie and I'd say they have plenty of room and sail just fine.

Bob, you're just off-base on this one and the idea that "if you're serious" you rebuild a specific SF Bay boat is ludicrous. It also just might discourage people.

Dave 'doc' Fleming
10-25-2000, 11:55 AM
Why Kermit, I bet the Nichols Bros. have an empty corner over in Freeland where you could set up a nice Tillicum. And Flounder Bay and Eden Saw Woods would be very happy to supply the lumber or you could go back in the woods up the Skagit and find one of those small mills that would be happy to saw you out about 10K Bd.Ft. of nice Doug Fir. You know the ones where everybody sips Real Lemon out of the bottle,
Now the big question is where are you going to find hot dipped galvanized ships spikes these days?
See there is always sumptin' in da way of a good project but a good person will find a way, I betcha'.
<RBG>

Dave 'doc' Fleming
10-25-2000, 12:27 PM
Ishmael, I perhaps was not clear about the usage of 'woids' in our e-mails.
No doubt in my mind that the shaping of a Scow hull would be ever so much easier than a fully shaped round bilge hull.
As how that effects the total man hours to completion,one vs. the other, I have no idea.
It might be sorta a dead heat.
40 or 50 foot vessel for fishing would have proportionally lighter scantlings than the same size scow.
Humping that big stuff around the yard for scow work would be a chore. Though it is true if a shipwright can't move a timber no one can. :)
I am quite familiar with the physical location of both Anderson and Seimers yards and they both are/were on a steep incline from the road above and the water is very shallow with just a few cuts to further out in San Francisco Bay so delivery of timber would have to be timed with the tides. I don't see that much coming overland. They, the yards were out in left field so to speak.
But that is the view from today and perhaps in times past easier.
Stones a well known round bilge builder was originally where the St. Francis YC is now.
They moved over to the Alameda Estuary after the 1906 earthquake and there were several big shipyards over on the Oakland side of the estuary too.
Benecia was another location for some yards and there might have been some just up the Napa River near the now defunct Mare Island Naval Shipyard. Hell there could have been builders just about anywhere on the Bay even up the Sacramento like later time Stevens Bros. Yacht Yard.
But I go off on one of my infamous tangents here.
The question of which was really "quicker" to build is interesting and for me a challenge.
I will have to dig out my notebooks on past projects and see if I can put together some hypothetical man hour comparisions.

Just for an example of today man hours used in building a 260 foot Pacific Class Tuna Seiner ran about 200,000 man hours to sea trials.
Now that is a big boat. Main deck house, level one of two is 80 feet long by 30 feet wide. 2 seat Bell Jet Ranger Heli looks positively small on top of house roof.

Kermit
10-25-2000, 02:10 PM
Sounds like a plan, doc! Nichols sometimes has some big corners going unused, and they fer sure could turn over about anything. How about they just build me one in steel?

I know--I could get my brother-in-law to do the welding in aluminuminuminum. He spent lots of years welding up Al seiners and such, and a scow should be a cakewalk for him. Can't you just see a big, shiny, polished silver scow pushing through a Salish Sea sunset, heading for the schooner races in PT? S'pose the "Adventuress" and "Zodiac" folks would mind? And there's any number of aluminum seine skiffs in these parts that would make for a great yawlboat hanging in those aluminum davits. "Clayton Moore" painted on the transom. Hi ho, Silver!

Whoa! Whadaya think--tanbark sails?

Dave 'doc' Fleming
10-25-2000, 02:15 PM
Heck Kermit, get one of those 'uptown' painters that makes sheetrock look like marble and have him spray paint the Al. hull in a wood finish and no one will ever know.
They will be amazed at the size of plank you found for your authentic scow.
Definitely tanbark but use tyvek for the material. It is all the rage in the rec.boats.building news group or so it would seem by the number of posts about it.

Kermit
10-25-2000, 06:56 PM
They make tanbark Tyvek now? I've heard about woodgrain duct tape. Will wonders never cease?

Maybe it could have the KW or Peterbuilt logo on the mains'l! Get one of those truck painters to airbrush some romantic/fantastic moonlit scene on the topsides. How about a COE cab for a wheelhouse, "Buddy" in italic script under the window. Complete with a sleeper! A turbocharged Cummins in the yawlboat. Hey, I think there's corporate sponsorship in this! Whadaya thinkin' there, good buddy? Come back?

Dave 'doc' Fleming
10-25-2000, 10:22 PM
Kermit, I see that you too have vivid imagination.
Since Kenworth is up there getting such a sponser should be easy for ye. <BG>
As an owner and driver of a one of those big rig wanna bee's aka Dodge 3500 Cummins. I am with you in spirit if not in the flesh.
When we, SWIMPAL and I were working at MARCO, we got the eldest a tour of the newer Kenworth factory over by I-5 for his birthday. Young fella didn't come down to earth for days after.
Ah, us boys with our toys, does it ever really change?
PS: Tyvek with a wood grain doesn't ring my chimes. But woodgrain Al. sounds like something that really would intrigue the folks at Boeing for the next generation of big jets. Just imagine, a super 7XXX with wood grained fuselage. Why the mind boggles!
Makes the Spruce Goose look like a piker.

Kermit
10-25-2000, 11:48 PM
Okay--okay. I'm getting it. Maybe Boeing could design some nifty airfoils to use as sails. I know a former truck painter who could paint 'em up to look like sails--seams, reef points, whatever. Maybe even a few faux repairs. Gotta get some of the Seattle high-tech in on designing the control systems. This is beginning to make the KALAKALA resurection look positively uninspired!

Earl
10-26-2000, 08:09 AM
Kermit,
I drove over the road trucks for 20 years. Peterbuilt conventional cabs are small and the wireing on Kenworths start going to heck in a hand basket after about five years. Give me an International(Barn Yard Buick) Any day.
Earl

Bear's Oil
11-29-2000, 09:03 PM
After distilling all the information that I have collected from you guys and after having become somewhat of a scow/sharpie scholar, I think I have an idea of where to start. I hope the building process is shorter than the previous sentence, however.
It sort of boils down to two Chapelle representations: The 22 footer in "Boatbuilding" and the 26 foot "Tuckerton Garvey" in ASSC.
I actually feel I might have the skills to expand these two into a real boat.
The worst case scenario (since I have a good, cheap source of cedar) is that I might end up with the biggest rowboat on the pond...or, since I enjoy gardening I might well have a raised bed capable of handling even potatoes.
But....here come the Q's for you old timers..
1. I want a cheap, simple, safe, portable rig. I am leaning toward a sprit-ketch configuration. Loose footed or sprit-boom? Which makes most sense?
2. The 22 footer is a lee-boarder. Keep the lee boards or go to a center board?
3. Do "forward skegs" and "cutwaters" effectively improve handling in chop?
4. Chapelle mentions using frames on each station as moulds. Makes sense, but how are the frames temporarily tied into the strongback?
This should get this thread moving again!!! I love this http://media4.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/smile.gif

Kermit
11-30-2000, 01:54 PM
Hi, Larry--I just got back from Ohio. With some HEAT in the shop, boatbuilding could have been tolerable. But cheap cedar? In Ohio?

The only question I'm able to shed much light on is the sprits'l one. I have a skiff with a sprits'l, and I like the rig very much. I don't think I'd hesitate to do a sprit ketch. As to whether to use a "sprit boom," I recommend it. Both snotters are run aft to cam cleats, and sail adjustments are a snap. It's really easy to tweak sail shape if you're into that performance thing. Sprits'ls also do much better off the wind and in light air with the addition of spritbooms. I can't attest to the use of two sprits'ls, but see no problems. A couple of worthwhile things to consider are some reefpoints (even though I've never used the ones in my sail) and a brailing line for each of your sails. It's great to ease the snotters a bit and pull the sail up to the mast. No sail wallowing around in the way in the cockpit. It's sure an easy rig to set up and strike. I keep the sail lashed to the mast, and roll the bundle around the mast and stow it in a long zippered sailbag. About all there is to rigging it is to drop the unstayed mast into place and then feed five lines to their places--sheet, halyard, two snotters, and the brailing line. Go sailing.

dadadata
12-02-2000, 10:07 AM
Larry, I think either would be fine.


1. I want a cheap, simple, safe, portable rig. I am leaning toward a sprit-ketch configuration. Loose footed or sprit-boom? Which makes most sense?

I'm not sure what is a sprit-ketch. A "periauger"? (Two masts, no jib?)

I think you want a sprit boom on your sails. Loose footed sails are a great pain to sheet. it can be done but it's sort of a question of "do you want to enjoy sailing, or become a loose-footed sail sheeting expert?" Sprit booms are a wonderful thing.

If you don't like the sprit poking in front of the mast, do what Commdore Munroe did. Put a yoke or jaw on the mast, and put your snotter at the clew end of the sprit boom.

2. The 22 footer is a lee-boarder. Keep the lee boards or go to a center board?

Leeboards are fine and you'll have a much bigger boat if you keep the CB trunk out of the interior. Jim Michalak and Pihl Bolger both have lots of experience with leeboards, and sail a leeboard sailing canoe, and again, it's fine.


3. Do "forward skegs" and "cutwaters" effectively improve handling in chop?

Bolger advocates a sort of a box-keel. I think it depends on how much chop (where are ya sailing?). Tom Clapham advocated a sort of faux-deadrise section at the bow. Contact me offllist for a scan of a Thos Clapham sharpie plan from Forest & Stream.

I'll also send you some stuff that Conor O'Brien published on his small boat rigs. A ketch with a sprit type rig. Say, I'll also include "at no extra cost" the Commodore's rigging plan for his boat "Utilis", the simplest ketch known to science.

4. Chapelle mentions using frames on each station as moulds. Makes sense, but how are the frames temporarily tied into the strongback?

Beats me. I'd use plywood frames and remove or cut out the parts that need to be cut out after planking.

CUSTOM SKIFFS AND REPAIR
12-02-2000, 01:15 PM
Take a look at an alternative scow in the runabout version. I can do a hull in a sailboat version up to the mid 20s'and I am also doing a redoe on a Charles Wittholtz 22' catboat that I have the plans for if you wish the hull done and you finish the boat. www.clis.com/customskiffs (http://www.clis.com/customskiffs)

dadadata
12-03-2000, 12:19 PM
<<
Jim Michalak and Pihl Bolger both have lots of
experience with leeboards, and sail a leeboard sailing canoe, and again, it's fine.
>>

Ooops, that's **I** sail a leeboard sailing canoe.

John B
12-03-2000, 05:26 PM
This is of interest only from a historical point of view but I just took a collection of photos yesterday of an old and dead NZ scow Rahiri ex Daphne.
I've posted a topic in misc on it but here is the album URL http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=1257037&a=9296203

Bear's Oil
12-20-2000, 07:31 AM
Christmas came early in Ohio! Friday's mail brought a mailing tube containing about $50 worth of material from the Smithsonian. Plans for "Rising Gale", an "Egret" type sharpy (ordered for interest sake) and a 24' garvey "gunkholer".
The garvey is a flat bottom, centerboard type apparently based on the "Tuckerton" garvey as defined by Chapelle in ASSC. There are three rigs suggested: gaff, Lake Erie and sprit. The boat has a neat "pop-up" cuddy, choice of radiused or transom type bow, motor well, and a host of other feature many of which have been discussed in this thread. Goes to show...HIC seems to have thought of everything!

Bear's Oil
12-20-2000, 07:31 AM
Christmas came early in Ohio! Friday's mail brought a mailing tube containing about $50 worth of material from the Smithsonian. Plans for "Rising Gale", an "Egret" type sharpy (ordered for interest sake) and a 24' garvey "gunkholer".
The garvey is a flat bottom, centerboard type apparently based on the "Tuckerton" garvey as defined by Chapelle in ASSC. There are three rigs suggested: gaff, Lake Erie and sprit. The boat has a neat "pop-up" cuddy, choice of radiused or transom type bow, motor well, and a host of other feature many of which have been discussed in this thread. Goes to show...HIC seems to have thought of everything!

Alan D. Hyde
12-20-2000, 08:51 AM
Since Chappelle has come up here, I do have one Chappelle story.

My father was friendly with an English multi-hull (trimaran) designer by the name of Eric Manners. That's another story for another day. But once, as a boy, in the early 1960's when I was maybe 12 or 14, my father (who is an engineer)and I had an hour or two discussion with Howard Chappelle in the Smithsonian.

Mr. Chappelle and my father did most of the talking; I just listened. My father had read and carefully annotated Chappelle's books, and had studied Manner's design rationale carefully, and had corresponded with Manners on it quite a lot.

Chappelle was obviously a master of his subject, and he and my father had a very lively discussion. He was not nearly as smitten with multihulls as was my father, who raced Hobie Cats successfully for many years.

Chappelle had a very dry sense of humor, and advanced his points based on tradition and experience. My father's points of view were based primarily on engineering considerations. They had an amicable discussion, but could not come to an agreement as to the potential value of trimarans for ocean cruising (This was before Art Piver disappeared).

Alan

[This message has been edited by Alan D. Hyde (edited 12-20-2000).]

BrianCunningham
12-27-2000, 04:54 AM
At the risk of being sacraligious ( it's not wood )

here's a modern 64 foot version of the scow
1 it's steel
2 it needs a lot of work

But for $3,800???

Drop a trailer on it, and you've got your houseboat!
http://images.yachtworld.com/6/8/1/681036_1_thumb.jpg

I've also opened another thread about it in the MISC section http://media4.hypernet.com/~dick/ubb/Forum5/HTML/001389.html

the link to the ad is over there.