John Welsford 6 Metre Whaler

[JimD]

I've emailed John and asked about converting the 6MW into a coastal cruiser with cabin and have gotten some very positive feed back. Not surprisingly I'm not the first to have this idea and apparently there are already a couple similar conversions out there and doing very well in quite rough water conditions or in his words "a very robust environment". According to John's recommendations she would be steadied with a ballast keel of about 250 kg and has enough freeboard for a self draining cockpit along with the cabin.

6 Metre Whaler

L O A 5.99M 19FT 8IN
BEAM 2.14M 7 FT
WEIGHT 300 KG 661 LBS INC C/BOARD
DRAFT BOARD UP 0.26M/10IN BOARD DOWN 1.35M/4FT5IN
SAIL AREA 16.25 SQM 175 SQFT

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid180/p40e1a462656e21364057c67d3fe3a2c6/f308a44e.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid180/p63b281b8ef4cf903d29fd0bd3f566fb4/f2f1332b.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid180/p6654c0b0a234e87adac5585058aa4721/f2f132c2.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid180/p078f8d9740e19700097b36ee6538df85/f2f1321d.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid180/p7024ebe7620410ab3dcdd7f2787a09ac/f308a5d0.jpg

[Meerkat]

Ballask keel - no centerboard? Ooooh! :eek: smile.gif

[JimD]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
Ballask keel - no centerboard? Ooooh! :eek: smile.gif Probably both. I think it will probably end up looking a lot like Penguin under the water which has both CB and 450 kg of ballast hanging under the boat, though just barely under.

Penguin:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid180/pfa80adde69e21d16616debee74f0ef76/f2ecaee1.jpg

Edited to add: Although I liked the idea of a full keel, no CB, and a fixed rudder. Maybe I'll have to see if I can slowly, carefully, nudge JW in that direction without p'ing him off :D

[ 08-07-2005, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Meerkat]

Best luck with that - there are times when Mr. Keen Boato could be mistaken for a barnacle! :D

[JimD]

Originally posted by Meerkat:
Best luck with that - there are times when Mr. Keen Boato could be mistaken for a barnacle! :D You mean I might get scraped off with the rest of the undesirable life forms? :eek: I won't push too hard. As designed 6MW draws 10 inches of water. Even with a chunck of lead or iron fixed directly to the bottom it wouldn't likely be more than 16 inches. There are worse things although it would be nice to have as little centerboard as possible in the cabin.

[Paul G]

What do you think this thing would sail like?

[JimD]

Originally posted by Paul G:
What do you think this thing would sail like?According to Mr W it ought to sail very well. He seems to be actively involved in the modifications I want with other 6MW builders including a new gaff main and a non-overlapping jib. The ballast ought to come in at around 700# including the centerboard; fairly typical for a boat this size. I'd draw up the cabin myself because I like the way I draw cabins. Probably have to give up a little headroom but if I could squeeze out four feet that would be tolerable.

[Meerkat]

I was refering to the fact that JW can be quite stubborn about his opinions... clings to them like a barnacle... ;) smile.gif

However, if you $neak up on him and whi$sper $weet nothing$ in hi$ ear, he can be had... just ask him! ;) :D

Paul; I thought you were waiting on Scout?

[Paul G]

John has sent me scout plans, I have made a model and am contemplating an openboat version. But........., procrastinations are afoot. Scout could be too big and tubby! I think I could lose some of the simplicity such as easy launching and retrieval. The cabin version seems to be pretty much a scaled down penguin. Which is ok but a bit of a floating caravan. I want sleek trad so maybe a bigger pathfinder or maybe that whaler.

So in process as they say.

[JimD]

I was refering to the fact that JW can be quite stubborn about his opinions... clings to them like a barnacle... I guess I was just being defensive. Old habit of mine :D He obviously has experience designing full keeled boats as per Swaggie. But his trailer boats are designed with a shallow keel/skeg arrangement that does not extend to the transom and I can see where extending it would move the clr back. That would require finding a way to move it forward again such as adding keel to the forefoot which could mess the balance and handling up even more. So I see his point. I wonder what he would say to a full keel with an inboard rudder? :eek:

[JimD]

Originally posted by Paul G:
John has sent me scout plans, I have made a model and am contemplating an openboat version. But........., procrastinations are afoot. Scout could be too big and tubby! I think I could lose some of the simplicity such as easy launching and retrieval. The cabin version seems to be pretty much a scaled down penguin. Which is ok but a bit of a floating caravan. I want sleek trad so maybe a bigger pathfinder or maybe that whaler.

So in process as they say.Paul, as you have no doubt noticed, the Whaler exudes traditional open boat whereas Scout is neither. Being a sucker for rugged good looks I'd rather try to turn Whaler into a cabin cruiser than go for a 'nice' looking design like Scout even though Scout probably already has all the features I want already designed in. But I doubt Scout would be hard to launch or retreive. It just doesn't fire up the imagination.

[Paul G]

Classics, I love eun mara, but its a bit cutesy, i.e I think it would more about the building and having the most varnish rather than rugged get out there designs like Johns. My debate is really about cabin or not, for the kind of sailing I do which is inshore coastal, and the escape time which usually is only the weekend, and the crew which is usually only me, Pathfinder is damn fine, but the family has expanded and I have the urge to build.

[JimD]

An open boat has a lot more room for an afternoon family sail but more than a few hours in an open boat with no cabin to duck into and passengers and crew can start to feel very exposed. A different set of circumstances for me. Just myself and Mrs JimD and the Pacific North West climate. I think if we had a bigger family I would be looking for a design with a large cockpit but also a nominal cabin a couple kids could at least nap in if the exposure started to get to them. You wouldn't have to put much of a cabin on the Whaler for that purpose

[ 08-12-2005, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Adrian Valley]

A Whaler with a (shallow?) ballast keel, a self draining deck and cuddy cabin sounds like a very good idea to me, any updates?
I have always been taken with the looks of this boat, but after talking to John Welsford he seemed to imply that Pathfinder was a better design, more seaworthy, stable, faster etc. but I wonder if a Whaler with these modifications might tip the balance the other way in rough water conditions (do you think it would self right?).
Does anyone know of anyone who has actually done this (or is in the process of doing it)? Seems like it would make a great boat to me, sort of like a mini Koster (in looks)any thoughts anyone; what do you reckon Wild Dingo?

[JimD]

Adrian, I had the idea of a fixed ballast keel, elimiating the CB but John seemed not too thrilled with the idea and wasn't very interested in redesigning her below the water line. I recall he did mention to me that there are whalers modified with cabins but I haven't seen photographic proof anywhere. Lately I've been playing around at the drawing board with Swaggie's lines and she's quite a lovely boat with a conventional cabin and cockpit arrangement. Full keeled, heavy, stable, plenty of righting moment, and an easily handled rig. Just what I'm after smile.gif

[Paul G]

Jim,

Where are you sailing? Swaggie is a world cruiser and so designed to withstand rough weather well beyond what most weekenders will run into. So she may be strong, but also slooooow and definitely not trailerable unless you have a truck. But if you wanted an unbreakable little ship and can handle the looks, a fine choice.

[JimD]

Right you are, Paul. But small is all I can afford and heavy is what I need for peace of mind. I'd be sailing around Vancouver Island, the west coast of which receives the full fetch of the Pacific Ocean and has acquired considerable notoriety when it comes to ship wrecks. Staying afloat, albeit slowly, is a primary consideration. Also, I have a truck and live about 15 minutes from the launch ramp.

[ 11-23-2005, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[ken.bryant]

Hi Jim,

I'll be following this conversation closely! I'm a newby to boat buildiing, but not to the west coast of the Island: I have kayaked out there for years, and have spent time paddling on the Brooks Peniinsula (and Solander) the last two summers. I'd now like to build a boat to do some sailing out there, and the boats I've been considering -- Grey Seal, particularly -- are in the same general league we're talking about. I love the lines of the Whaler; hope something comes of this!

[JimD]

Ken, it would be hard to go wrong with a Grey Seal which is also one of the most beautiful pocket cruisers around. John W was kind enough to send me partial plans for the 6MW so I could get out the crayons and draw cabins and cockpits on it. It looks like a very doable project and if I decide to go with a centerboarder the whaler would almost certainly be the one.

[Paul G]

Swaggie fits the bill, but you gotta redo the cabin and give it a gaff!

[JimD]

Originally posted by Paul G:
Swaggie fits the bill, but you gotta redo the cabin and give it a gaff!The cabin I've already drawn up. The rig will probably stay the same. Single handing and especially reefing a junk sail is just too easy to pass up. No way I'd turn her into what would amount to a gaff rigged catboat. If I went to a conventional rig it would probably be a yawl, something like Penguin. But I don't really want to.

[Adrian Valley]

How do you think a lead shoe keel would go. I was thinking something like the one on William Gardens' Ell design which is only approx two and a half inches deep but gives 400lb's of ballast. This is combined with a centreboard and a couple of bilge runners to allow the boat to dry out flat. Do you think this would be possible without having too much effect on the underwater shape?
One other thought, why not an off centre centreboard that doesn't fully retract and a shallow bilge runner on the other side, like the the design for the Bellhaven see
http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/bel.htm

and the lead shoe keel. Any thoughts?

[JimD]

Originally posted by Adrian Valley:
How do you think a lead shoe keel would go. I was thinking something like the one on William Gardens' Ell design which is only approx two and a half inches deep but gives 400lb's of ballast. This is combined with a centreboard and a couple of bilge runners to allow the boat to dry out flat. Do you think this would be possible without having too much effect on the underwater shape?
One other thought, why not an off centre centreboard that doesn't fully retract and a shallow bilge runner on the other side, like the the design for the Bellhaven see
http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/bel.htm

and the lead shoe keel. Any thoughts?A shoe would probably be just fine. It might even be what John has in mind for the extra ballast required for a cabin version. Since the plans already call for a ballast centerboard it might be easiest just to keep the board as designed and have it drop through a slot in the shoe. Shallow bilge keels on either side as an added bonus.

[Adrian Valley]

I came across an article by Dave Robertson:

http://www.woodenboat.net.nz/Boats/BoatTaihoa/Taihoa.html

where he talked with John Welsford about turning the Whaler into a small power launch.

This interested me as John suggested that the outboard well could be made slightly bigger to accommodate a 10 hp motor and that the Whaler would then plane if lightly loaded!

This is sounding like my ideal boat, plane to the fishing grounds, sail back, go camping, cope with a bit of weather etc etc. Am I missing something? Any thoughts out there?

Adrian

[JimD]

Adrian, did you intend to add a cabin? A cabin sailing version would require at least doubling up on the ballast so it becomes not quite so light a boat for 10 hp but all the same it does sound like a very versatile design.

[Adrian Valley]

I had sort of envisaged a small cuddy, just big enough for a couple of people to sit behind out of the wind, a sort of fixed dodger if you like. I still think some ballast would be good though to steady the boat (twin off centre steel centreboards?) Do you think the motor would add to the stability or detract from it?

Adrian

[JimD]

Originally posted by Adrian Valley:
I had sort of envisaged a small cuddy, just big enough for a couple of people to sit behind out of the wind, a sort of fixed dodger if you like. I still think some ballast would be good though to steady the boat (twin off centre steel centreboards?) Do you think the motor would add to the stability or detract from it?

AdrianCouldn't say about the motor. Maybe with only a small cuddy not much more ballast would be needed to keep the CG low. What do you think of just adding a little inside ballast to augment the 85 kg steel CB it's designed with?

[Adrian Valley]

Low down inside ballast sounds like good commonsense to me and simple is definitely better as far as I'm concerned. I suppose the fuel tank and battery would help too. I might have to hassle John for his thoughts.

One last off the wall idea and then I'll get sensible (read real), what about water ballast below a self bailing deck? I wonder how Michael Roberts does it in the Green Island 15/18? Less weight to lug around when it's not needed.

Adrian

[JimD]

I don't like the idea of water ballast. First there's the hassle of a system to get the water in and out of the boat and then there's the dubious efficiency of a ballast material that's not heavier than water. We're really only talking about perhaps 100kg of additional inside ballast. Ten lead bricks @ 10kg each would be about all you'd require.

[Steven R]

How high above the waterline would the sole of the 6M Whaler need to be to drain out the motor well? I think this slightly raised height would also lend more structual strength to the centerboard case which is not designed with any athwart support above the sole (not claiming that I think this is a problem, but any additional support can't hurt)

I've had the 6M Whaler plans in my posession for probably over a year now. I keep bouncing back and forth as to whether or not this is the design I want to build. About 6 months ago, I decided that I didn't like the idea of having an outboard motor in my lap (i.e. motor well) so started looking at non-double-enders. However, I've come around to the idea of an electric trolling motor for backup power (any thought on this?) and this has re-opened the door for the Whaler.

I want something for camp-cruising and have also thought about what it would take to add a cuddy cabin to the Whaler. However, I think if I went the Whaler route, I'd be leaning toward a soft dodger that could be expanded into a tent. Why add more weight and complexity?

I was actually thinking this morning that it might be possible to eliminate the athwart seat that rounds around the forward end of the cockpit, extend the deck a little more aft and create some additional space under the deck for storage.

Just brainstorming here...

[JimD]

I have a 65# 24 volt trolling motor. Wouldn't count on it for anything other that trolling a fishing skiff on a calm day on the lake or for getting a somewhat heavier boat in and out of the marina. As auxiliary power for a sailboat out on the briney sea I think it would be quite useless.

[john welsford]

That gaff sloop rig is now available. All drawn up and ready to go. I have a local busy building a 6M Whaler and will be posting pics on my site when he's got it planked up. He is going for this rig, and will be doing a few other mods as well.

JohnW


Originally posted by JimD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Paul G:
What do you think this thing would sail like?According to Mr W it ought to sail very well. He seems to be actively involved in the modifications I want with other 6MW builders including a new gaff main and a non-overlapping jib. The ballast ought to come in at around 700# including the centerboard; fairly typical for a boat this size. I'd draw up the cabin myself because I like the way I draw cabins. Probably have to give up a little headroom but if I could squeeze out four feet that would be tolerable.</font>[/QUOTE]

[Thorne]

Steven R -

No practical experience on electric motors, but I've been following the various threads on this forum (check 'em out!) with great interest.

First, I'd guess that a boat with the weight and windage you are considering would require two 75lb + eletric motors and lots of batteries to move against much wind or tide, and under heavy conditions even this wouldn't be enough. And even if it was enough power, it might not last long enough (battery capacity) to get you back to harbor.

As tempting as electric power is to many of us, it looks like the main limitation is battery storage. A boat designed for electric use with banks of BIG batteries down in a keel space will work well, but for boats designed for limited ballast and that may operate at sea in storms -- not so good (yet).

I've nearly ended up on lee shores several times when sailing my old San Juan 21, and wouldn't want to risk a lovely wooden boat to anything but the most reliable and powerful auxilary motor available.

Second, if the problem is the noise of the outboard, have you considered making up a removable sound-deadening cowl for the motorwell? A slot for the outboard tiller and maybe a plastic window for seeing the readouts/lights? Combined with a quiet 4-stroke it might work for you.

[Steven R]

Thanks for your input Thorne. I have no experience with electric motors, so any and all feedback is appreciated. Since posting that message, more research has led me to the same conclusion you surmised. Too much power would be needed to make electric propulsion feasible.

Yes, the noise as well as the smell and oily mess is what turns me off about having it in the "living space". Finding a way to enclose it without starving or overheating it is certainly an option