Hey Todd!!... Another of my dumb queeries for you before Chrissy hits!

[Wild Dingo]

Todd mate as is well known Im sorta getting into the wee lassies again... and intend to get the flamin things stripped by New Years {hopefully!} so Ive been wondered about how to go about locating the mast step?

I could wait till Im done with the canoes and email him for the info after I show him the glorious pics! ;) ... but that would be too late as the mast I see from Macs site is incorporated in the breasthook which is elongated to encorporate it dureing the building stage.

Something to be said about buyin the plans aint there! :rolleyes:

Actually Im thinking there must be {and youve probably already told be and Ive forgotten now} a formula to determine all this?... so the same formula could be used for the 11ft and 13ft Wee Lassies as for a 20ft white guide right?

Also would it be helpful for tracking etc to structure some sort of rudder/tiller and keel setup... sorta becoming a whole different kettle of fish aint it?? tongue.gif

Anyway any help will be gratefully aknowledged and accepted! :cool:

Take it easy
Shane

[Todd Bradshaw]

General rule of thumb is to locate the mast at a position that puts the sail's C.E. right above the leeboards and then adjust the position of the leeboard bracket as needed while test sailing to get the best performance. The boards work best when pretty close to the boat's fore-and-aft center, though you can fudge a bit in order to take advantage of existing structure (like thwarts or the bow seat on full-sized canoes) for supporting the mast at gunwale level. Unless you're building a dedicated sailing canoe, it's nice to be able to remove the rig for paddling and have the remaining part of the boat pretty much as designed and unchanged.

I haven't seen the plan, but on a Wee Lassie I can't imagine you would be looking at more than about 25 sq. ft. of sail area. With the mast stepped through the bow deck, the C.E. of the sail may be well forward of center. Being so small, the canoe will be quite sensitive to fore and aft trim under sail and that may allow you to adjust the balance quite a bit by just shifting your weight. Ideally, it might be better to put a mast thwart about 1/3 of the way aft of the bow and step the mast there. In either case, using existing structure where possible and trying to get the C.E. and the leeboards near the middle is the best bet.

I hate keels on paddling canoes. I have never, and will never, own a canoe that has one. Good canoe paddling technique is learning how to make the boat go gracefully in any direction, including sideways when desired, and a keel just hinders that. I find the vast majority of the "it helps in a cross-wind" argument to be bunk and generally used to cover up either bad paddling technique or bad hull design. Unless I really planned on optomizing the boat for sailing, at the expense of it's paddling performance, I wouldn't add any kind of skeg or keel that's not already in the plans.

If you sail a lot, a simple rudder can be nice although it's probably worth trying paddle steering first before going to the trouble and expense of hunting up rudder hardware. The Wee Lassies in particular are going to be light-air/favorable conditions sailing canoes and a paddle should have plenty of leverage for steering them.

[garland reese]

Shane,

Mac's decks, as laid out on the Wee Lassie, are fairly small. I think that the through deck mast is on a canoe that has an extended deck. I built my Wee II with slightly longer decks, but I did not quite make them long enough to put the mast through. Either make them big enough to incorporate a through deck step, or make them short enough to allow the use of a mast "thwart". If you could figure out a way to make the step sort of a temporary deal and make a thwart/partner that could allow some fore and aft moving around to find the general good placement of everything, then you could commence to fitting a permanent step and partner. Mac doesn't really specify any measurements for sailing the Wee Lassies, but he does say that not much sail is needed (Todd, I think you are spot on!!). Plans would not do you much good if you have the book. He only sells the patterns.......the book is the rest of the story.
Mac does have patterns for a sailing canoe hull. I'd bet that he has some advice for where to place everything for that one, or he can get you with someone that has a good set up for the design. That'd give you a good excuse for another project after the varnish dries on the lassies.
You might try contacting John Bell. I remember some time ago, seeing plans for a drop-in sailing rig. It incorporated a step, partner, and leeboard mount all in one removeable system. I think it had sail dimensions too. I wish I could find the link??
I bought plans from Walt Simmons for a balanced fore and aft rig for my Wee II, but I never did build it.......I can't really figure out the best place to put the sails :D :D (that tells you just how much credence to give MY advice ;) ).........they are jib headed;...whatever that means, fore and aft sails of the equal sq footage. Very modest sail area.
Have you checked with Mac about sail and leeboard palcement for the Wee Lassie?
Todd is the man for this question fer sure!

[Wild Dingo]

Thanks Todd and Garland
Excellent answers! Spot on... I do like the idea of the mast thwart being removable. The wee lassies are small and very light Todd you can get an idea at Macs page (http://www.feathercanoes.com) ...whereas the White Guide is 20ft and therefore should have a fair amount of weight in her... Im only now cutting the moulds for her so shes a fair way away yet {knowing me! :rolleyes: maybe I'll get a good straight run this year?}

So no keel? Okay thats not a worry I can do that! ;) less work is best work as they say

Use the oar as tiller?... mmmmm hadnt thought of that sorta like the yuloh idea?

Will take this and print it off so I can go through it steadily.

Garland I sent Mac an email some time ago and havent heard from him... mmmmm maybe I should send him another?

Thanks again fellas :cool:

Take it easy
Shane

[Todd Bradshaw]

OK, I looked at the boat on Mac's site and it really is a Wee Lassie. That name and "Rob Roy" tend to be very popular for small canoes and you never know what you're actually getting. I paddled a similar, Rushton-style Wee Lassie back in the days when Old Town made a 10 1/2' by about 27", 18 lb. fiberglass version. It's fun and a great boat for poking around in hard-to-get-to places.

From a practical standpoint, it's sailing potential is somewhat limited because of it's small size and really low freeboard. The long-decked sailing version in Mac's gallery with a steer-stick or foot controlled rudder http://www.feathercanoes.com/canoes6.html
looks like it might be the way to go if you really intend to sail it much. I think it might be really tough to sail to windward in the open version with a sail rig added because every little puff has the ability to put the rail under and swamp the boat. Even the long-decked version may not be a picnic, since the decking doesn't do anything to keep water from coming over the gunwale in the middle of the boat. It does, however. look like the boat is well set up to do what it can and the mast placement and steering are taken care of. I can't tell though what if anything it has for a leeboard or centerboard. Perhaps it just has a small keel added.

I would be very tempted to forget about upwind sailing in an open Wee Lassie, steer with a paddle and rig it with a simple removable mast thwart and a Balough Sail Designs "Twins" mast and sail. Check this site and go to the "BSD Twins":
http://www.baloghsaildesigns.com/pro.html
In terms of being the most fun, easiest to control and least amount of hassle for part-time sailing, I don't think they can be beat. You will need to paddle instead of sail when you want to go to weather, but it's probably going to get you there faster than trying to rig the boat to sail upwind will.

At some point, you have to step back and figure out what's really practical and for such a tiny boat, it's probably better to have a very simple rig and sail part of the time instead of trying to make a sailboat out of it. When you get around to rigging the White Guide there are endless possibilities from modest rigs to twin-sail jobs with big sails that will really make it scream - all of which bolt or clamp on without really changing the boat's nature.

You can see the one-piece mast step/leeboard bracket assembly that Garland mentioned (called a "Rigging Deck") on the Lost in the Woods Boatworks site. It's a neat idea, though it's still a little much for a boat the size of the Wee Lassie.:
http://lostinthewoods.ca/conversion.html

Also, there are a couple very interesting articles about designing a sailing canoe in one of the Gougeon Bros. Epoxyworks magazine back issues which are worth reading. You can find them at:
http://westsystem.com/ewmag/16/index16.html

[Wild Dingo]

Okay thanks Todd... I will just keep it simple with the wee lassies paddle only and go for a removable sail rig on the white guide... compared to the wee lassies these WG moulds are SOME SERIASSLY BIG SUCKERS!!! :eek:

Okay another question while were in the mood ;) ... who sells covers for canoes? Or how difficult would it be to make one to fit? Im thinking about storage and also when travelling with a load in one covering that to keep out water or whatever... Im wondering about the stuff the kayakers use for their skirts to keep the water out making a skirt type affair for the canoe??

Scenario... paddling one canoe and stores in other... ie: wee lassie 2 with 2 people paddling and the wee lassie as the stores boat towed behind this one would need to be covered to protect the stores... where would one get one of these and can one make it instead of buying and how does one go about doing so?

Great questions for pre-chrissy eh mate?!! Just think of what Im gonna be like AFTER Chrissy is done and the canoes are getting toward launch!! yeeeeeeeha! :eek: tongue.gif

Take it easy
Shane

[Todd Bradshaw]

Spray covers aren't too hard to make. I've built a few, one of which went on a solo expedition to the far northern parts of Canada and survived. As far as pulling a "trailer" with the gear in it, many would say that such a scenario would indicate that either your boat is too small or you are bringing along too much stuff. Tripping in smaller sized canoes or kayaks is best done with the same type of load that you might carry while backpacking and not much else. Save the extra stuff for the trips in the White, which will hold a lot of gear and then some.

As far as splash covers go, there are several ways of attaching one - two common methods are snaps a few inches down from the gunwale along the sides of the hull (fairly ugly) and Velcro (also fairly ugly and it needs to be the 2" wide stuff since Velcro loses half it's grip when wet). I'm not fond of either of these.

An old racing canoe designer once told me that an inch of outwale width is worth an inch of depth, in terms of splash protection. I generally build my boats with 1"-1.25" wide outwales and they do make a difference. With a little tapering toward the ends of the boat and along their outside edges, they look pretty decent as well. They add a slight bit of weight, though they also add strength. About the only downside that I can see is that once in a while, you bang your knuckles on them - not a big deal. They also make for a pretty good way to attach a splash cover. I use snaps screwed into the underside of the gunwale about 15" apart and a "drawstring" in the edge of the cover that snugs up around the hull right under the gunwale, the same way the shock cord in a kayak skirt locks onto the cockpit rim.

I tried shock cord in a canoe cover and it didn't work very well. It was too stretchy and a pain to deal with. The best results came from using 1/8" nylon parachute cord in the hem. You tie it's ends together so that when you really pull hard it will stretch just enough to pop over the gunwale and lock onto the boat - then you back it up by going along and snapping the snaps.

In moving water, two people wrapped in a loose or detached splash cover from a capsized canoe can be very dangerous. Covers should fit tight enough that you can literally pick the boat up by the cover and shake it without it coming loose.

I usually use about a 4-5 oz. coated nylon duck fabric. It's not super heavy-duty, but packs into a bag about the size of a big grapefruit and the finished cover doesn't weigh much. I drape the piece over the boat, pull it flat and tight with strips of tape running down the sides of the hull and when it's tight all around I trace the upper outboard corner of the outwales by going along them with a piece of chalk. I put a mark over the center of each seat and then remove the fabric from the boat. Once it's on the floor, I add about 3"-3.5" all around, fold it in to the original tracing line as a hem and sew it leaving a small hole at one end where the nylon cord goes in and comes out after going around the perimiter.

The snaps are installed on the canoe, under the gunwales, the cover is put on the boat and the cord is adjusted for a proper fit. You can then locate the snaps, poking at the cover from under the gunwale and mark their locations on the cover. Then you remove the cover and add matching snaps at your marks on the hem.

Chapter two: "Installing the Manholes and Skirts" tomorrow. My eyes are getting fuzzy and I'm going to bed.

[Brent Rehmel]

I can't say that I have much sailing experience. I've been in a sailboat three times actually. Some of this is common sense, though. For example, at NY last year, the wind was blowing toward the shore and the Weekenders had no trouble tacking away from the shore against the wind. The waves were fairly high for a small boat (about 2') but the Weekender seemed very stable.

5 knots to sail is also high. I rode in a Weekender at Knoxville last summer. The wind was hardly blowing and there were times that the water was perfectly smooth and the boat just sat. I have a picture on my website from the video I took showing the water without a ripple. Then, we would get a puff of wind and we'd move forward. It takes hardly any wind to move it. You could easily sail with 3mph winds.

It's a nice little boat. It's fairly easy to build and costs less than an equivalent Glen-L design. It is easy to setup and get into the water if built with a mast hinge. I would consider some of the cost estimates a bit high, but then I'm building my Pocket Cruiser with BCX plywood and a scrim reinforced, 6 mil plastic sail. The mast is made from 2x4's. We'll see if it holds up or if I really should have spent more money.

I would also disagree about the size of the cockpit. I feel that the stock Weekender cockpit is great for two and a bit small for three. The mast is also a bit low for me and I'm only 5'3" tall. Still, a nice boat.