L.F.H. on altering designs

[Venchka]

If [her] design is only slightly changed, the whole balance may be thrown out. If you equip her with deadeyes, build her with sawn frames, or fill her virgin bilge with ballast, the birds will no longer carol over her, nor will the odors arising from her cabin make poetry, nor will your soul be fortified against a world of warlords, politicians and fakers.

L. Francis Herreshoff

Perhaps a bit overstated. Or not. Ya pays yer money and takes yer chances.

Edit to clarify or confuse: I feel that this applies to any design from any designer that has that certain "correct" look to it.

Wayne
In the Swamp. :D

[ 05-16-2005, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[Tom Robb]

Bolger said once, more or less, of LFH's boats that if you "improve" them a bit here or there, you'll soon destroy that crisp rightness we all see but struggle to define.
I'd tend to agree. They're the work of an uncommonly gifted artist. If you want something different, hire a NA/Designer to design the one you have in mind.

[Frank E. Price]

You can mess about in a work of art, but you'll probably do a lot of cringing.

Frank

[John B]

And LFH designs are probably one of the most altered in the world. Sometimes I just cannot believe what I see being sold as a 'Herreshoff'.

Thats why I was in raptures over Casablanca.. a Bounty built here in the 80's. I only saw it first a couple of years ago. I might go and look for pic of it.

[George.]

Just to stir up some controversy, didn't LFH make a living from selling designs - sometimes very similar designs? If every Tom, Dick, and you went about "altering" old designs, his income might dry up pretty quickly - a good motive to promise fire and brimstone and griping and missing stays to any who attempted to do so...

[Stiletto]

Ever the contrarian George, you may well be right, but so was LFH. smile.gif

[Venchka]

"Hey, Boss! De point! De point!"

Suppose I omitted the author of the quote? Would you all agree that few of us mortals have any business mucking about with perfectly good boat plans in the interest of "improving" them?

This is another of those Whipped to Death Horses. Mark Van and Michael Mason have addressed this "I can make it better" syndrome in recent memory. I just thought that L.F.H.'s quote was a good one on the subject.

Wayne
Going into hiding In the Swamp. :D

[RodB]

One situation comes to mind where making changes made some sense...the case of the modified "Wenda" "Sally" where the changes took advantage of what we have learned over the intervening years...on centerboards etc...and the changes were approved and even suggested by two reputable NA's (bringing the rudder post vertical, moving the centerboard and ballast keel rearward, and changing the main to a bermuda rig. I think the main factors in these changes were perfect balance, performance, and safety.

I don't see the Herreshoff designs in the same light at all. Herreshoff's designs would need careful study before cotemplating any changes.

RB

[ 05-17-2005, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: RodB ]

[JimD]

Suppose I omitted the author of the quote? Would you all agree that few of us mortals have any business mucking about with perfectly good boat plans in the interest of "improving" them? Clearly, the thing to do is to start out only with seriously flawed designs and fix them. :D

[PeterSibley]

This must be one of the joys of designing your own boat...change anything you like,no guilt smile.gif smile.gif

[Ian McColgin]

Let's limit the discussion to having lawful use of the whole design. There are four somewhat different arenas for design change.

One might make changes in scantlings, hardware, rigging, or machinery that accomodate different building methods.

A second option involves changes in rig design either for aesthetics or performance. To take two examples from one hull:

Granna has a bowsprit and real jib, unlike the LFH design. The result, tested against two other Marco Polos more faithfully executed, is markedly reduced weather helm and improved windward performance.

Another example is that wonderful job done by Legenday inwhich they convereted a Marco Polo into a more normal ketch rig with increased sail and deeper increased ballast. Reputed to be an exceptionally fast and fine sailing boat.

Along the same line, there was a Rozanante written up in WB a couple of years back that involved subtle and interesting changes in the main and mizzen placement. Sails great and, it turns out, LFH drawings were later discovered with that rig as an option.

Thirdly and so utterly common that many designers don't consider this really a change: One might change the accomodation. In some of his writing LFH rails against this, but really it's just his sermons in favor of simplicity. Again the Marco Polo example: LFH broke up the accomodation with huge (1,000 gal) fuel and water tanks and planted the engine between the main and foremasts. Most Marco Polos actually built have about half the tankage and tuck the engine down under the main saloon sole. More damagingly, some have desicrated Rozanante's with self-draining cockpits and sliding hatches.

Much depends on how exactly the boat was designed. The fameous Wianno Sr is not really a well designed boat. One example, with the shere raised one plank and the cabin lengthened back to make a real cruising accomodation, also happens to sail better in a blow due to her improved stability curve.

Finally, there's little improvements to appendages. Bolger really has pushed leeboards past LFH's model and a Meadowlark or Golden Ball can benefit. But room to fiddle here is a bit limited as in most designs, especially 'traditional' planked down designs, the appendages are not really independent of the hull.

I know of examples where a design was taken for inspiration, including much of the hull lines well beyond the superficial look of the "tradition inspired" shall we say neo-classics such as the White Horses and Spirit designs. These are often fine boats in their own right but are not actually a change of old design so much as a truely new design.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

I don't care what you all say I'm putting a removable cabin on Dove. It will be an improvement in my sailing desire and lifestyle ;)

The other thing I think that is not considered in modifications of existing designs is how sometimes boats fall into your care are not necessarily the boats you would have chosen had you had unlimited inventory and funds. Case in point Dove. I already have a perfectly respectable open dory style day boat. I want a boat that I can camp over in and my dream is a Catboat. But Dove an Atkins III cat ketch sailing dory caught my eye, and well I guess you can never have to many open wooden sailing dory's ;) But since she is partially covered and has a coaming I want to try this removable cabin idea I have in my head. The cabin will be totally removable and so only my expense and time of building a luxurious coach house will suffer should it not perform as desired. In the end I will simply remove it no harm no foul, except for a bruised ego ;)

[Ian McColgin]

Out of curiosity, why not make a really capacious canvass shelter than gives full living space at anchor or beached and stows neatly when sailing, perhaps as an extension of the tiniest of cuddy cabins whose real purpose if improved access, not real cabin sitting. ??

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Originally posted by Ian McColgin:
Out of curiosity, why not make a really capacious canvass shelter than gives full living space at anchor or beached and stows neatly when sailing, perhaps as an extension of the tiniest of cuddy cabins whose real purpose if improved access, not real cabin sitting. ??NO !!!! ;)
I want a luxe wooden coach house cabin and thats it !!!! waaaaaa waaaaaaaa :D

[John Bell]

Originally posted by Ian McColgin:
Out of curiosity, why not make a really capacious canvass shelter than gives full living space at anchor or beached and stows neatly when sailing, perhaps as an extension of the tiniest of cuddy cabins whose real purpose if improved access, not real cabin sitting. ??Ian, Lord knows we tried... ;) And yet he persists. A man of Joe's considerable energy is not to be denied!

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

With varnished mahogany beams and a louvered hatch and bronze port lights maybe even a small bronze COWL VENT for the camp stove :D yea yea yea thats it :D

[ 05-17-2005, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ]

[JimD]

Joe, I think your removable cabin will look great. I just hope with all the natural swelling and shrinking warping and twisting etc., that it removes and installs as easy as planned. I'm probably making far too much out of a minor possible problem. Fiberglass sheathed plywood seems to have far fewer of those sorts of problems.

Edited to correct typo.

[ 05-17-2005, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: JimD ]

[Frank E. Price]

Sheesh! Just build the danged boat. Build it however you want it and the only serious question about your modifications, other than suitability for intended use, should be whether or not to tell people it was designed by LFH or whoever. And that should be between you and the designer. If he/she is dead, then it's up to your conscience. And your capacity to endure scoffing, sneers and namecalling.

Exception being if you are going to subject passengers, especially paying passengers, to your creation. If the latter, you probably have a serious problem unless you have proceeded under the guidance of a bona fide naval architect (whatever that is).

Frank