Douglas Fir

[Maximus]

Does anyone know where I pick up some D fir in the Minneapolis area?

Brent

[Thorne]

You should change your handle to "Minimus".

Answer: any lumberyard. If you want particular dimensions of particular types of DF for a particular purpose (hull plank / spar / trim), please elucidate...

[Mrleft8]

BAD THORNE! BAD! Go sit in the corner!!!!!

[C. Ross]

You might try Scherer Bros or Youngblood Lumber in NE Mpls.

[Thorne]

BAD THORNE! BAD! Go sit in the corner!!!!!

:D

"No one expects the THORNE Inquisition!" BWHAHAHAHAHAH!
(bites little finger)

Seriously folks, ask a simple question get a simple answer. It seems that at least 1/3 of most threads is spent trying to pry additional specifics out of the requestor. SO much easier if they think things through and ask for what they want to know in the first place...

[JimD]

:D

"No one expects the THORNE Inquisition!" BWHAHAHAHAHAH!
(bites little finger)

Seriously folks, ask a simple question get a simple answer. It seems that at least 1/3 of most threads is spent trying to pry additional specifics out of the requestor. SO much easier if they think things through and ask for what they want to know in the first place...

You are under NO OBLIGATION to reply to every thread. You could, for example, just shut up.

[Thorne]

You are under NO OBLIGATION to reply to every thread. You could, for example, just shut up.


:D:D:D:D:D:D

When I reach your total of 18k posts, I'll consider it. Otherwise I'd suggest leaving that attitude in the Bilge where it belongs. At least my posts are an attempt to assist the requestor with his question by asking for more info. If he just wants any size of any quality of any cut of DF, then any lumberyard will do...

[Maximus]

This has turned into the Thorne beatdown thread!

I have always considered DF to be a basic species of wood, haven't given much though to it have sub-species like cedar or pine, even oak.

I have a number of uses in mind, possibly even a mast and boom, but for now I'm wanting to use it for the gunwhale and in layer of the rubrail with oak on the outside.

So, again, where can one find DF in this area?

[Lew Barrett]

You might try Scherer Bros or Youngblood Lumber in NE Mpls.

Good morning boys! Testy today are we? :D
Here's an answer!;)

[Lewisboats]

Menard's has decent 4x4 dimensional and T&G flooring. For anything else you might look to a proper lumberyard supplying contractors.

[David G]

This has turned into the Thorne beatdown thread!

I have always considered DF to be a basic species of wood, haven't given much though to it have sub-species like cedar or pine, even oak.

I have a number of uses in mind, possibly even a mast and boom, but for now I'm wanting to use it for the gunwhale and in layer of the rubrail with oak on the outside.

So, again, where can one find DF in this area?

Maximus,

You're right that Douglas Fir has no subspecies. There are (in general) distinctions in attributes to be drawn based upon where it was harvested... but that's mostly of interest to the scientists.

The real distinction that might be useful to you is the Grade. You can read up here, if you're interested:

http://www2.wwpa.org/SPECIESPRODUCTS/DouglasFir/tabid/405/Default.aspx

For the ordinary buyer of lumber for marine use, though, all you really have to do is ask for "clear douglas fir." Often, the seller will equate this with CVG or clear vertical grain. Clear and Vertical grain are NOT synonymous. One typically pays a premium for vertical grain, and in many marine uses it's either not necessary, or even undesirable (it's a bit more prone to splitting on impact).

The other thing you can do to get clear fir without paying the premium for that grade is to go to the BigBox store or local lumber yard, and dig through their larger dimension lumber stacks (2X6 - 2X12 and 4X4 - 4X8 for example) until you find sticks you can get what you need out of.

BTW - Unfortunately... as much as I love teasing Thorne... this is not a case that allows me to pile on to harass my twin. He is correct. The more information that is offered in the initial inquiry, the better we can answer. It happens so often that it's become a pet peeve of mine. If Maximus had said in his first post what he said in the second one about how he planned to use said douglas fir, we wouldn't have had to ask, and we wouldn't have had to endure Jim's (Pre-coffee? Pre-??) snarkiness.

[WI-Tom]

I've had really good luck with clear Douglas fir sold as stair treads--I found premium stuff 12" wide up to 20' long. And Menards sometimes has good clear 4x4s.

Tom

[chas]

And if you were so fortunate from some quirk of geography, you might even hold out for some 'old growth'. LOL / Jim

[Bruce Hooke]

BTW - Unfortunately... as much as I love teasing Thorne... this is not a case that allows me to pile on to harass my twin. He is correct. The more information that is offered in the initial inquiry, the better we can answer. It happens so often that it's become a pet peeve of mine. If Maximus had said in his first post what he said in the second one about how he planned to use said douglas fir, we wouldn't have had to ask, and we wouldn't have had to endure Jim's (Pre-coffee? Pre-??) snarkiness.

But I think we should also remember that in some cases the person asking the question does not realize that additional information is necessary. I have often been in situations in my job where a customer will ask what seems to them to be a simple question and I have to respond with some variation of "it depends" and then ask a few more questions and educate them a bit about why these additional questions and distinctions matter.

[Maximus]

DF has so many uses in boat that I don't really think that I needed to be more specific. Spars, sprits, rails, and since DF is a single species would it really matter?

I went to Youngblood's website and it didn't list DF...am I missing something? I've never seen DF listed in any major store...hmm.

[JimD]

:D:D:D:D:D

When I reach your total of 18k posts, I'll consider it. Otherwise I'd suggest leaving that attitude in the Bilge where it belongs. At least my posts are an attempt to assist the requestor with his question by asking for more info. If he just wants any size of any quality of any cut of DF, then any lumberyard will do...

Thorne, my good man, I am sooo glad you took my remark in good humour. I've been worried about it ever since I posted and was just about to change it when I noticed all these smiley green faces :)

[C. Ross]

Maximus

Youngblood is a hardwoods place, but I've been able to special order oddball stuff from them. Scherer is a better alternative -- they're aimed at the contractor business, but the order desk will cater to amateurs. (They once milled up a ton of T&G wainscoting for me in birch at odd lengths to match some old millwork in my house...loved that.)

A couple of people suggested Menards...it is big box hell, but I agree their lumber stock is surprisingly good most times.

There are places that sell remilled DF from old buildings, but it is "character" wood with lots of knots etc.

[Michael D. Storey]

Why you crazie boat boys! As it gets dark, you go nutz!

[Maximus]

On Youngblood's page it say the have "FIR VERTICAL Grain", does anyone know if that's maybe what I'm looking for?

[David G]

But I think we should also remember that in some cases the person asking the question does not realize that additional information is necessary. I have often been in situations in my job where a customer will ask what seems to them to be a simple question and I have to respond with some variation of "it depends" and then ask a few more questions and educate them a bit about why these additional questions and distinctions matter.

Bruce,

Thanks for adding that. I intended to edit my post to say just that, then got a phone call that took me away till now. It's certainly true that we can't expect people to know exactly what information is germane... but I do wish they'd err on the side of Too Much, rather than Too Little :rolleyes:

[C. Ross]

On Youngblood's page it say the have "FIR VERTICAL Grain", does anyone know if that's maybe what I'm looking for?


Call 'em.

[jerry bark]

Menard's has decent 4x4 dimensional and T&G flooring. For anything else you might look to a proper lumberyard supplying contractors.


That is where i got some for a few parts on my dory. I re-sawed the 4x4's to size. the cost is fair and if you look the quality is pretty good.

for the sizes you will need the t&g stuff might be OK as well.

good luck
jerry

[Lew Barrett]

Caution and we've discussed this before: Of all the boat woods DF is substantially one that requires you to know the source before you go off and install it someplace critical. Lots of stories about poorly sourced but good looking wood turning ugly in short order. As a rule buying structural lumber for boats at a box store seems to carry some risk most especially so with DF. Bob Smalser should chip in here with the latest on this.

[pcford]

Bob Smalser should chip in here with the latest on this.


Yes one has to be careful about Douglas fir. There have been some nightmare stories: Large powerboat replanking with Douglas fir...rotten in three years. This is usually described as down wood from Mt. St. Helens. However, at the meeting of the elite of the Seattle wooden boat fraternity in early December at Lew Barrett's fine crib, Roger Morris allowed as how he believes this stuff came from BC.

As to Smalser's expert opinion...he has written that there is no real difference between kiln dried and air dried fir. Actually, they are two very different woods when it comes to working them.

With experience Bob will learn the difference.

[David G]

Caution and we've discussed this before: Of all the boat woods DF is substantially one that requires you to know the source before you go off and install it someplace critical. Lots of stories about poorly sourced but good looking wood turning ugly in short order. As a rule buying structural lumber for boats at a box store seems to carry some risk most especially so with DF. Bob Smalser should chip in here with the latest on this.

Lew,

You may know more about this than I. I have only had one experience with this phenomenon. The fir I got didn't quite feel right, so I called my wholesale supplier. They said I wasn't the first to complain, and to bring it back. They explained it as them having difficulty sourcing sufficient quality fir, and so buying from an atypical source. Turns out the source was milling from the St. Helens salvage stock. This was several years ago.

My understanding - again from my supplier - is that this affected the whole industry for a while, but it was like a pig in a python... it has now passed. If you, or others, have conflicting information, I'd certainly like to hear it.

[pcford]

is that this affected the whole industry for a while, but it was like a pig in a python... it has now passed.

Ah, David G, you do have a way with words.

As I noted above...maybe St. Helens was not the source of this wood. Hence it might be a continuing problem.

[David G]

Ah, David G, you do have a way with words.

As I noted above...maybe St. Helens was not the source of this wood. Hence it might be a continuing problem.

Pat - I'm perfectly willing to entertain the notion that it's an ongoing problem. My suppliers statement may have had more to do with their intent and confidence that it would no longer be an issue for them.

OTOH - the impression I got from them was that they were talking about the whole industry. And I hate to worry my Pretty Little Head unnecessarily. So... if you (or anyone) have suspicions that it might be ongoing -- I have to ask... according to whom, and based upon what? I'd like to know more.

[pcford]

Pat - I'm perfectly willing to entertain the notion that it's an ongoing problem. My suppliers statement may have had more to do with their intent and confidence that it would no longer be an issue for them.

OTOH - the impression I got from them was that they were talking about the whole industry. And I hate to worry my Pretty Little Head unnecessarily. So... if you (or anyone) have suspicions that it might be ongoing -- I have to ask... according to whom, and based upon what? I'd like to know more.

I have not heard of further problems...but if Roger Morris is correct...there could be.

[Bruce Hooke]

DF has so many uses in boat that I don't really think that I needed to be more specific. Spars, sprits, rails, and since DF is a single species would it really matter?

Yes, it matters in a very big way because the quality of douglas fir available from different sources is very different, as are the likely available dimensions. You can get douglas fir construction grade lumber as 2x stock and often 4x4's at almost any lumberyard supplying the building trades (that includes Home Depot, Menards, and the like). This may work fine for some boatbuilding purposes but would be an unwise choice for others. At the other end of the scale, if you need big pieces of douglas fir for major structural components on a larger boat then you might well have to special order no matter where you go in the Twin Cities area.

[pcford]

By the way...I've mentioned it before...I did a new bowsprit on a little Garden cutter a couple years ago.

I bought an air-dried Doug fir chunk from Olsen's. Wood made in heaven! Tight and wonderful to work. $13 a BF.

[Bob Smalser]

As to Smalser's expert opinion...he has written that there is no real difference between kiln dried and air dried fir. Actually, they are two very different woods when it comes to working them.

With experience Bob will learn the difference.

Sorry. Perhaps I wasn't clear.

What makes the difference in workability is tightness of grain and dryness, not how it was dried.

DF airdried to the low moisture contents suitable for flooring (below 6%) isn't any more fun to work than DF kilned to the same low moisture contents. Especially stock coarser than 8 rings per inch where edge tools have to deal with the large differences in hardness and texture between earlywood and latewood.

In turn, DF at 19% MC is relatively easy to work whether kilned or airdried to that basic MC specified for outdoor use. Especially tight, shade-grown stock at 12-20rpi or better where there is little span between the harder latewood texture, allowing cutting tools to cut evenly and without catching on the softer, gummier earlywood.

The simplest test sans meters is hand driving a 16-penny common nail in a DF 2X4. If you need to drill a pilot hole to prevent either splitting or the nail bending, the stock is too dry for easy workability and some facets of boat work like planking, and will benefit from rehydrating.

Otherwise it doesn't even pass the common-sense test that Honduras Mahogany kilned hard to below 10% primarily for the furniture and guitar trade is great boat wood, but Doug Fir lightly kilned to 19% is the devil's own work.

[Alex Low]

I realize that I am speaking from Xanadu... but $13 bd/f for DF is what we call a "thorough" hosing in these parts.

We get 2" air dried at 2+ years for $4 (that is a premium price) and the ring count usually exceeds 40+ an inch. I have upwards of 60 rings at that price. We are lucky that it gets saved for boats due to an anachronistic sawyer who likes to cut and dry for boats.

At 13/bdf you could drive up here, give me $5, get the timber, and drive home with some money left over!

Alex

[Falcon500]

http://www.theworkbench.com/

not sure about their woods, the local boat school ordered cherry and has to send more than half back because of the grade (lots of sapwood)

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
Going back to Post # 11, this is what can happen if you use clear Douglas fir that is not vertical grain. This was an oregon flagpole that was dropped in transit. As you can see, the grain ran out over about 4' or 5' or so, and the whole piece shattered accordingly. Had it been vertical grain it would probably only have suffered surface bruising --


http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au/public/flagpole1a-s.jpg http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au/public/flagpole1c-s.jpg

Fortunately we were able to fix it, but it cost the transporter quite a bit of money....


http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au/public/flagpole2-s.jpg

Mike

[Gary Bergman]

Maximus....When do you need this wood by??...I'm in the Southwest, headed to the northwest in 60 days, then briefly to my home just three hours west of you. Depending on size, I could load some in my somewhat crowded one ton and bring it east....Arizona to Idaho, then South Dakota. Then, load tools and head for NY to relaunch Royaliste...just a thought, as I do some crazy sh*t!....Gary

[David G]

Mike,

You're confusing "vertical" grain with "straight" grain. The stock that your stick was made from may well have been vertical grain (though that nomenclature can become obscure if the initial stock is square, eg. 4X4, 2X2, etc.). By the bye... it may also have been perfectly clear. Its obvious failing was the amount of grain runout incorporated. For a spar, that's a huge failing. I'll hazard the judgment that the fabricator was either ignorant or cynical. The shoddiness, however, was not because the stock was not clear, or not vertical.

[Hal Forsen]

Any reason it has to be DF?
There must be a suitable substitute that grows closer......:confused:

[Bob Cleek]

I realize that I am speaking from Xanadu... but $13 bd/f for DF is what we call a "thorough" hosing in these parts.

We get 2" air dried at 2+ years for $4 (that is a premium price) and the ring count usually exceeds 40+ an inch. I have upwards of 60 rings at that price. We are lucky that it gets saved for boats due to an anachronistic sawyer who likes to cut and dry for boats.

At 13/bdf you could drive up here, give me $5, get the timber, and drive home with some money left over!

Alex

I live in DF country and lived right in the middle of a DF and redwood forest for about a decade. I'd really, really like to see a pic of sixty ring DF. Must be some pretty amazing stuff. That said, there is a huge ring count range in DF. Then there's the cut, plain or vertical. Variations in the straightness of the grain and pitch content abound as well. Not to mention the market's identification: Beware of "hem-fir" or generic "fir" or "white wood" that some clown at Home Despot tells you is Doug fir. I'd say that DF that is going to be used in boatbuilding really ought to be hand selected on a piece by piece basis for the specific use intended. Most DF you'll find outside of specialty lumberyards will be construction grade, fine for 2x4's, but not for boat work. If you don't live in DF country and don't have access to specialty sawyers, you'd probably have much better luck, and more change left in your pocket, if you used a more locally available suitable alternative.

http://www.woodland-trust.org.uk/ancient-tree-forum/atfinternational/canada/images/bigbetty.jpg

Left Coast treehugger and local doug fir.

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
Sorry David, maybe we've got an intercontinental terminological difference here. The stick was definitely clear, and definitely straight-grained. It's just that the grain wasn't parallel to the longitudinal axis. I can only assume it was cut from a larger baulk on a bias (it clearly didn't grow like that,) whereas I would have assumed before seeing it that a spar that size would have been turned from a grown stick, and therefore be vertically-grained.

Mike

[Lew Barrett]

My this thread has developed some legs!


Lew,

You may know more about this than I. I have only had one experience with this phenomenon.

Not likely, but I put punk wood in my boat not once....but twice! It seems I'm thick sometimes. Purchased from a normally (considered) highly reliable specialty shop that everyone around here knows the name of. No diss on them....but it was very disheartening. They say they know better now too,


The fir I got didn't quite feel right, so I called my wholesale supplier. They said I wasn't the first to complain, and to bring it back. They explained it as them having difficulty sourcing sufficient quality fir, and so buying from an atypical source. Turns out the source was milling from the St. Helens salvage stock. This was several years ago.

Mine may have been blow down as well, but let me tell you....it fooled not just me, a run of the mill schmuck, but some pretty experienced shipwrights as well.


My understanding - again from my supplier - is that this affected the whole industry for a while, but it was like a pig in a python... it has now passed. If you, or others, have conflicting information, I'd certainly like to hear it.
That's what I've heard too, but I no longer use it for planking. I would if I could buy it straight from anybody named Bob, but at the moment I have enough AYC to make as many planks as I am likely to need over the next few years. That or PO cedar would be my first choices at this point excepting fancy stuff like teak or something of that style....and that's not remotely affordable anymore even if I could bend it in easily......or justify the weight.

[David G]

.
Sorry David, maybe we've got an intercontinental terminological difference here. The stick was definitely clear, and definitely straight-grained. It's just that the grain wasn't parallel to the longitudinal axis. I can only assume it was cut from a larger baulk on a bias (it clearly didn't grow like that,) whereas I would have assumed before seeing it that a spar that size would have been turned from a grown stick, and therefore be vertically-grained.

Mike

Mike,

The terminology I use:

Clear = lacking knots, pitch pockets, bark inclusions, etc.

Straight grained = grain runs parallel - or nearly parallel - to the long axis of the board

Vertical grain = quarter-sawn - see diagram below

Flat grain = plain-sawn - see diagram below

Rift grain = similar to quarter-sawn, but with the lines showing at the end of a board diagonal rather than vertical.

http://www.bchardwood.com/images/what_is_quarter_sawn.gif

So, using my categories, a straight grained board could be vertical, flat, or rift. What defines the straight grained board is the lack of grain runout. The rather severe grain runout is what caused the failure of the spar you show... and therefore, by definition, can not have been "straight grained."

But, as you say, perhaps you use different nomenclature.

[Canoeyawl]

.
(it clearly didn't grow like that,)
Here is a Douglas Fir that might yield some slash grain...
It is common around here (where it grows) to see trees harvested from side hills and canyons that have three feet of sweep in 16 feet of length, and that might be in a three or four foot diameter log.
http://www.llandeilo.org/images/trees/douglas_fir_lge.jpg
edit; here's another
http://extension.usu.edu/forestry/UtahForests/TreeID/Assets/Images/M600/DouglasFirBarkMature.jpg

[Bob Cleek]

Curved trunks growing out of rocky hillsides, sure, but, my God! That's one sick looking Doug fir! Are you sure it wasn't planted on top of a nuclear waste dump site? Never seen anything like it and I've spent my entire life in sight of Douglas fir stands.

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

OOOOOOhhhh... Compass timber stock!!

Exactly. No-one in his right mind would try making a straight load-bearing spar from that part of the tree.


And that's what's meant by "runout."

... just as I described in my first post....


David, I would have expected that flagpole to have been cut from a whole tree. Referring to your drawing, not a board (of any orientation,) but the entire cross-section, trimmed to size. This is what is normally called here a 'pole' spar, in which case it would automatically have been, by your definition, straight-grained. My point was that while the grain ran straight within the flagpole's timber, it was not parallel to its axis but cross-grained through the spar. And that the spar therefore fractured when subject to what was probably only a moderate bending stress.

Imagine making a mast like that! I think the flagpole's owner was lucky to have got away with it undamaged for as long as he clearly had. If it had been subject to the sorts of bending stresses my flagpole is I doubt if it would have lasted more than a season or two --


http://www.woodenboatfittings.com.au/public/flagpole9-ss.jpg

Mike

[David G]

David, I would have expected that flagpole to have been cut from a whole tree. Referring to your drawing, not a board (of any orientation,) but the entire cross-section, trimmed to size. This is what is normally called here a 'pole' spar, in which case it would automatically have been, by your definition, straight-grained. My point was that while the grain ran straight within the flagpole's timber, it was not parallel to its axis but cross-grained through the spar. And that the spar therefore fractured when subject to what was probably only a moderate bending stress.

Imagine making a mast like that! I think the flagpole's owner was lucky to have got away with it undamaged for as long as he clearly had. If it had been subject to the sorts of bending stresses flagpole is I doubt if it would have lasted more than a season or two

Mike,

You "would have expected" that spar to be a pole spar, or you know that it was?

If it was, then it appears to have grown with a twist. Spiral grain. Not strong at all. Not quite as obvious during fabrication. If it was home-made... that's another question entirely, and would temper my testiness about the fabricator :cool:

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

.
No, no, Dave, I didn't know anything about the damned thing until it was delivered to me in pieces to repair. (Those photos don't do justice to the amount of damage, by the way -- there were several smaller splinters as well, a big chunk had gone missing altogether -- you don't want to know about it... :rolleyes:

But if someone had told me in advance nothing other than "there is a flagpole that needs some attention," I would have assumed it to have been, if not a pole, at least a properly-constructed straight-grained spar (possibly laminated.)

I doubt that it was home-made. The truck you see is actually a spun metal cup covering a properly-shaped wooden fitting -- it had a 'shop-look' to me. And while the halyard block and cleat were not to the standard I myself would provide, they were about as good as one generally sees in 'trade goods.'

I didn't take the whole flagpole back to bare wood, just to sound paint, so I can't be sure either way about your supposition about its having a spiral grain. But all the wood that I saw (which comprised about the middle third, or a ten-foot section near the break) had exactly the grain orientation you see in the photos.

I had a few quiet words to the manufacturer in my mind, I can assure you....

Mike