Design for extended coastal cruise?

[Steve Paskey]

Okay, this is all highly speculative, but I'd like to hear your suggestions.

Here's the scheme: build a small sailboat, gain some experience with the boat, then, a few years from now, take 6 or 9 or 12 months off work and cruise the coast from Maine to Florida or Texas or wherever. No hurry to be anywhere: lots of gunkholing and excusions away from the ICW. Crossing the gulf stream to the Bahamas in good weather is a possibility.

Design constraints: Easily single-handed. Relatively shallow draft, but capable enough for the trip. Enough room to for one person to be comfortable for months, but trailerable and no bigger than necessary. (Within reason, the smaller the better.) The less reliance on an infernal combustion engine the better. Would be nice if it could be built in less than 1000 hours. Bolgeresque boxes would be considered, but something with a head-turning traditional look would be nice.

I've deliberately been a bit vague, because I want to hear a diversity of ideas. Within those constraints, what would you build and why?

Steve Paskey

[Charlie J]

If I were doing it, single hand, I'd pick a Cross 26 Trimaran. Suits every point you made, except the traditional one..

[Bruce Taylor]

How shoal? Do you like sharpies?

[Eric Sea Frog]

Hi!

I've found this one for peanuts.
Just a cuddler, so it depends what you'd call an extended trip? This is no much more than an overnighter.

http://www.svensons.com/boats/Petrel

I'd keep the bowsprit and move the front portholes towards the mast. Looks like a Jeep.
But, what's a dozen ply panels?
Now, if you can print those huge sheets, I'd be glad to know how.

Eric

[Leon Steyns]

How about a nice Herreshoff design? smile.gif

Sorry, that was cheap. And a 12.5 would be too small.

Serious: do have a look at Ted Brewer's Cape Cod Cat http://www.tedbrewer.com/sail_wood/capecodcat.htm, or the bigger Chappiquiddick.

Greets, Leon Steyns.

[garland reese]

The 22 foot Princess Sharpie from B and B yachts might work. It is trailerable, quick to rig, simple cat ketch rig. It is built very simply with bit of a v hull, plywood stitch and glue type construction. Big enough for a single in "roughing it" comfort. I don't know anything about the conditions along the Intracoastal waterway, but so long as you could hold up somewhere during nasty weather, it might work real nicely. I don't think she has much ballast, so riding out a big blow might be unpleasant.
www.bandbyachtdesign.com (http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com)

I'd bet Bolger would have something that'd do very nicely, that could be built reasonbly inexpensively and quickly. Jay Benford may have a small dory design that would work well at a reasonable cost and building time (the ones I'm thinking of start at about 26 feet and heavy displacement, but he may have something smaller). He even has a 14 footer that appears to be pretty serious for her size. www.liveaboard.com (http://www.liveaboard.com)

Winter Wren or Winter Wren II from Sam Devlin might do nicely too, if you didn't get too fancy with the finish work. Devlin Boats (http://www.devlinboat.com/)

[ 12-28-2002, 10:38 PM: Message edited by: garland reese ]

[SailBoatDude]

Jay Benford has a cruising dory that may fit the bill as well as several other pocket cruisers, that may suit you tastes. 'Gone a look a lot better then a box boat.

[Charlie J]

Garland - the Princess 22 carries 400 pounds of external lead in the shoal keel.

Would do really well for anywhere on the ICW, but you'd really need to be sure of a weather window to take it to the Bahamas. Of course, there are people who regularly cross in much less boat.
Check out the exploits of "Little Cruiser"

http://www.microcruising.com/

[Marcio Moreira]

Hi Steve,
Take a look on 3 designs holded by the Eventides Owners Association:
http://www.eventides.org/plans.htm
The 16 feet Senior - Maurice Griffiths design, a hard chine sloop, with a small cabin.
19 feet Wild Duck, another hard chine sloop, designed by Alan Buchanan.
And the more beautiful 3 Tonner, a round bilge sloop, carvel planked, designed by the same designer of Wild Duck
Cordial Greetings
Marcio Moreira

[Mark Van]

Just about any boat that can handle cruising the coast of Maine should be able to handle the trip. From what I heard, the roughest part of the trip is in New England. You say that you don't want to depend on you're engine, but from Norfolk to Miami, you almost have to, as the sailing isn't very good, due to the narrow waterways. The big question is, how comfortable do you want to be, and how much money do you want to spend on a boat.

Mark

[rbgarr]

A friend of mine built a 26' Egret sharpie in Maryland to do just the kind of trip you envision (except for the trailering bit). He and his wife did indeed have to motor most of the way south but got across to the Bahamas, and then east to Maine. Along the way they conceived their first child, too.

They said if they could do it again, they'd build a trailerable boat they could put in in South Carolina, sail/motor ICW to North Florida, then across to Bahamas and return. Drive to Chesapeake... drive to Buzzard's Bay/Nantucket Sound... drive to Casco Bay and east from there. Those were their favorite places for getting off on their own, but that was twenty years ago.

[Gresham CA]

Steve,
Just a couple of things to consider for the ICW. You might want to consider something with a bimini(for the sun) and a full enclosure(for the no-see-ums, at night they can get unbearable in the salt marshes on the ICW and I haven't found a bug repellant that works). As for power, err on the side of too much. Some places the tidal currents run at 6+ knots.

[garland reese]

Thanks for filling in the ballast detail Charlie,

Princess looks like a nice boat. She should be easy to trailer for a boat of her size.

Steve, I did a little reading on the ICW, and it looks like a motor would definitely be needed much more often than you might desire (as others have indicated), but it would still be a trip to remember.

Marcio, Thank you for that link to the EOA. The old link I had did not work. I've been trying to find that site for months. Those might be a challenge to easily trailer, but they look very salty, and the ones like Eventide should take you most anywhere.

So, is the ICW a narrow canal for most of the way, or is it made up of canal sections that link to larger bodies of water? The trip sounds like it would be very interesting. Is it heavily traveled? What is the best time of year to take such an endevour? Steve, would you be staying exclusively on board for the whole time? Is it possible to find a slip for a few nights.......maybe a week, if there was somewhere that you wanted to spend some time? Sorry Steve, I know I'm not helping much with your question, but I'd like to know more about the ICW

[Gordy]

Steve,
I live in Orlando and have built a Core Sound 17, designed by Graham Byrnes of B&B Yacht Designs.

I've seen the Princess in person and was really impressed. If I had room, I'd be building one now.

I've sailed across the Gulf Stream (in a much larger boat) and I've been off shore in the Gulf Stream in a much smaller boat... many times.

If I had a Princess you can bet I'd be posting pictures from the Bahamas!

Gordy

[Gresham CA]

Steve,
The Princes 26 that Garland mentioned would be a nice ride for the Waterway.

Garland,
The Atlantic ICW is mostly coatal creeks, rivers and sounds all tied together by short ditches. I am by NO means an expert on it but have traveled it from Mclellanville, SC to Melbourne, Fla. and when I retire in 3 years, 9 months, and 10 days I will be seeing much more of it. Contact me off forum and I will tell you more if you so desire. I don't want to highjack Steve's interesting thread.

[Eric Sea Frog]

And, of course, whatever the design, the mast of YOUR boat will be resting on the bottom of the hull !
tongue.gif

------------------
Emmenez-moi au bout de la Terre!

[Steve Paskey]

Hi guys: thanks for all the interesting comments. I have a number of thoughts in reply, which I'll divide into two posts (the trip and the possible boats).

For some years now, I've had a yearning to spend a significant chunk of time away from the details and demands of ordinary life. No punching a time clock (either literally or figuratively), and no schedule except that dictated by the sun and the weather. Coupled with that is a desire for a degree of self-reliance that folks don't often experience (at least in developed countries). A romantic cliche, perhaps, but it's something I'd like to do before I die.

Ordinarily one might wait for "retirement." Problem is that I know too many people who've died far too young, most recently a 42-year-old woman in my office who died very suddenly after a short illness. And I know too many people who are fighting one sort of cancer or another. I'm keenly aware that life is short: I had surgery for malignent melanoma a few years ago (the nasty sort of skin cancer), and have walked away from two car accidents that could have easily been fatal.

So, I'm thinking six or nine or even twelve months on a small boat, just me and the boat, the wind and the water. Unlike some folks, I have no particularly hankering to do a circumnavigation, or even cross the Atlantic. I'd much rather putter along an interesting coastline with plenty of creeks, sounds, and rivers to explore. I do expect, though, that I'd occasionally overnight at a marina, if only for the sake of a hot shower!

The initial thought of roughly following the ICW was that it would give me a stretch of coast I could follow for months without doubling my tracks. I haven't yet looked at it closely, though. I'm not enthused about loading up the boat on a trailer en route, but it may well be that there are lengthy stretches I'd rather skip over. It's important to keep in mind, however, that the opportunities for exploring along the ICW are much greater in a very shallow draft boat. As I understand it, there are long stretches (especially from Norfolk to Miami) where a boat with a 5 or 6 foot draft would be limited to motoring in "the ditch," but that's not what I have in mind.

[Scott Rosen]

Just a couple of thoughts for now. You will need a motor to do the ICW. You will also need to check bridge heights for your mast.

If you're going to spend time in the South, then you must consider ventilation and protection from the heat as key design elements. A boat designed for Maine or New England may not be comfortable in the Southern heat.

I would seriously consider a cat boat. Have you read The Boy, Me and the Cat, Cruise of the Mascot, 1912-1913, by Henry M. Plummer?

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/store/images/300541.JPG

It's about a father and son who cruised the ICW in 1912 and 1913 in a small cat boat. I highly recommend it. You can get it from our host. Buy it Here (http://www.woodenboatstore.com/store/)

[ 12-31-2002, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Scott Rosen ]

[Meerkat]

Hi Steve;

I'm working on prying a design such as you mention and with much the same general purpose in mind out of John Welsford.

My initial design ideas are these:
16' LOD and possibly with a short bowsprit and the needed boomkin for the mizzen - 20' LOA approx. Short overhangs for max LWL/hull speed. 6'6" beam.

Sloop rigged gaff yawl. IMO yawls make a lot of sense when no engine is planned. Backing the mizzen means you back up! Gaff makes for max sail area on a short mast - looks traditional too smile.gif Deck/tabernacle mounted with an interior ring frame to carry the load and yet leave the cabin open.

Bilgekeels - no c/b trunk in the cabin and able to stand upright when dried out.

Comfy accomodation for 1, occasional accomodation for 2 and in a real pinch, 3. I envision a double berth in the bow with a nice hatch over it for laying abed and watching the stars/ventillation/escape, a short (4-4.5') settee to port with a footwell extending aft under the cockpit (for "at sea" sleeping if needed or that 3rd "in a real pinch" guest) and a galley flat to starboard. A portapoti lives in a locker under the companionway and is vented to exhaust air from the boat, through the locker and thence overboard.

A small cockpit (4-4.5') so that there's more cabin space for the above layout. I have not the slightest interest in laying out full length in the cockpit when I could and would want to be at least partly sitting up to be looking around etc. Nor do I want a cockpit big enough to encourage guests to want to camp out in it ;) . An ice chest hides in the cockpit seat locker.

A small lazarette (1-1.5') at the stern to accomodate a 1 or 2 pound propane tank/gas locker (commercially available). Such a tank will run a small 2-burner "drop in" stove (such as from Force-10) for at least a week. This little lazarette, along with the side decks and coaming gives a bit of psychological distance between one and the deep blue too.

If one desires power, an outboard would just have to learn to live on a bracket on the transom. I don't think there's room for a well and I really don't plan on power in any event.

It goes without saying that there would be comfortable seated headroom and at least crawling space over the head (stern end) of the double berth. 4-4.5' of bookshelf outboard of the settee and the settee back hinges open to reveal storage, as does the base. Enough of a bilge so that the odd gallon of water will have a place to go if it makes an unwelcome visit. A couple of opening portlights (round, bronze) and a couple more deadlights. Possibly a stern facing port/deadlight by the settee. One considers the merits of lining the interior with foam for insulation and buancy, especially as there's no room for a tender/life boat.

She won't be intended to be first around the marks, but I hope for reasonably decent performance - that's where John's magic comes in. She's not going to be the easiest to get on/off a trailer, but that's the tradeoff for having an unencumbered cabin. I expect an 18-24" draught, so she'll nestle into the thin waters, but won't do the "wet sand" thing that a boat like the "Paradox" sharpie will. I suspect she'll have a plumb bow (with a bit of a curve at the foot) and look a little chunky, which I don't care all that much about as long as she looks like a trad. boat. With a built-in stove and an organized interior, I expect she'll be a nice step up from the "dayboat with a lid" sort of camper that some boats are. A proper little yacht for people with no legs ;)

I don't know if this is realistic or a pipe dream, but I hope I can come darned close to this. Maybe if it suits you too, it will encourage John to really get going on it! smile.gif

[ 12-31-2002, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[Gordy]

Meerkat has a lot of good ideas. I had a Silhouette MkII, a 17ft plywood bilge-keel sloop built in England. She was a wonderful boat, sailed very well and was remarkably seaworthy. She drew about 18 - 20 inches.

After sailing my Core Sound in North Carolina, inside the Outer Banks, and , of course, most of the protected areas of eastern Florida, I now feel that more than a foot of draft is just unacceptable. Ten inches would be barely tolerable.

I disagree with Meerkat on the cockpit. I definately want to be able to lay out on the seat. I also want a bimini top over the cockpit. I know it's not very traditional looking, but in the summer they're wonderful! With Zip-on mosquito netting the cockpit becomes a screened-in patio where I could sit back and toast the sunset. If I had a Princess I'd have a dodger that could be joined to the bimini. Then I could sleep with the companionway open and catch every bit of breeze without letting the flying critters in.

I think a four-stroke outboard in the well would be just the ticket. Do they make a 4-6 hp one with a generator or alternator?

Gordy

[Meerkat]

Gordy; I want to be able to sit semi-reclined in the cockpit, but how often does one really want to actually lay flat outdoors? As for the bimini and etc, I completely agree with you and the mizzen mast might make that easier to do. Up here, it's bugs and rain, not bugs and sun though smile.gif

Honda makes a 4-stroke 5hp (probably overkill for this size boat) that can take an optional 13A alternator. I was leaning more towards oil lamps and solar cells for basic electrical needs.

[Gordy]

Some of my nicest naps were in the cockpit of that Silhouette. The seat wasn't even long enough. I had to put a cushion on the bridge deck and my feet were on the lazzerette.

I did the oil lamp thing, and I have to admit they give the cabin a feeling nothing else will, especially on a cool evening. For reading, however, I need a little more.

I want a GPS, fish/depth finder, VHF radio and nav lights... at a minimum. I agree with you that solar cells are the way to go, but I'd like to have the generator also.

Chick's Princess has a six hp outboard. Certainly a smaller unit would be fine, but if you end up motoring all day it'd be nice to be at 1/2 throttle.

[Meerkat]

Gordy; Ah, I'm with you now - in my vision, the bridgedeck is at the same level as the cockpit seats (and the companionway has a higher sill to discourage Mr. Ocean from going below) and, after thinking about what you said, the aft deck could have the lazarette on the centerline with footwells to either side for improved lounging and line stowage while under way. smile.gif

I hear you about reading - that's important to me too. All oil lamps are not created equal. The french round wick types produce a lot more light then the more usual flat wicks, then there are the Aladdin mantle oil lights and at the top of the light pyramid are the pressurized kerosene mantle lanterns (the white noise hiss has never bothered me much). Another low energy alternative are white LED lamps.

I'll settle for the GPS, VHF and radio/CD. Oil nav lamps are legal and i'm perfectly content to let the fish find themselves (fish nirvana? ;) ). smile.gif

[ 12-31-2002, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[Gordy]

Oil nav lights are quaint. I like a 3-way masthead light.

Fish finders are cheaper than depth sounders and have bigger numbers. Every time they alerted me about fish, they lied.

Oil lamps produce heat. Not bad, but a consideration.

If you gotta have a motor anyhow, the 5hp with generater sounds great... along with solar cells of course.

I think we're drifting off the subject of this thread.

Gordy

[Scott Rosen]

Have you read LF Herreshoff's The Compleat Cruiser?

He has some great ideas for small coastal cruisers and spends a lot of time singing the praises of a traditional catboat for that kind of work. Huge cockpit and a roomy cabin are possible in boat less than 24 feet. Centerboard will make it trailerable. One sail makes it easy to sail single handed. Gaff rig allows you to have a short mast, which is good for those areas where you encounter bridges. They have tremendous initial stability, so the ride is comfy. Three reef points in the sail will allow you to handle most any coastal weather conditions. Shoal draft with the board up.

Traditional catboats are head-turners. The only downside is the lack of standing headroom. But you're not going to get standing headroom in any trailerable sailboat that I know of.

[garland reese]

Tony Dias has a very nice boat "Buck", which is based on a Catboat hull. It has a catboat look to it, but it is not proportioned nor rigged as a traditonal cat.......it is sort of a cat-yawl or Noank Rigged sloop (??). Anyway, at 20 feet and designed for strip building, it is neither quick nor cheap to build, but the options of the winter rig and the removable winter wheelhouse could give nearly year round usage in a pretty simple small boat. A 10 hp diesel is spec'd. The centerboard is designed so as it does not intrude above the cabin floor. This is out of the scope of your initial guidelines, but for the longhaul, you'd have a good auxilliary, multiseasonal useage, and a fair amount of room.

The Maurice Griffths' YM Senior might do very nicely for you Steve. It is ply on frame, small at 16 feet, but pretty big for her length. She can be built with a small keel with bilge keels or as a centerboarder. This little boat has a lot of attributes that you spec'd in your design quest Meerkat.

Paul Gartside sent me a prelim drawing of a truly charming little 16 foot sloop a while back. I don't know if the plans were ever completely done........she is 16', gaff rigged, 6'6" abeam, 1' draft and 3'10" with cb down. She has the charactersitically wonderful lines of Mr. Gartside's other larger designs. She looks incredibly proportional all round. She will take a 5 hp outboard as auxilliary power. I'm keeping this one in my "very possible" folio (I wish it were just a tad bit bigger). But again, she is not a knock together design. She is meant for strip, with veneers over.

[swingking]

A self draining cockpit in a small boat is almost impossible because the cockpit sole needs to be 18" above waterline.

Designer Matt Layden sailed his closed cockpit 14' sharpie "PARADOX" without motor from Maine to Florida to Bahamas. See:
http://home.triad.rr.com/lcruise/paradox1.htm

Yahoo Groups:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/paradoxbuilders/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microcruising/

Sail handing can be done inside the enclosed cockpit.
Chine runners give not great windward performance.

Jim Michalak's 15' version of a Bolger Micro but has leeboards and can be water ballasted:

MUSICBOX3
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jim/musicbox3/index.htm

Musicbox2
http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jim/musicbox2/index.htm

Plans were $20 including postage when I ordered from Michalak.
Many like Michalak's plans because they are more detailed than Bolgers and even more easy to build.

Michalak's Boatbuilding pages are a great read:
http://homepages.apci.net/~michalak/

Michalak's YAHOO group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Michalak/?yguid=58277443

GREAT PELICAN 16' centerboard scow
http://www.dngoodchild.com/5469.htm
http://barque.freeyellow.com/sail.html
http://community-2.webtv.net/PelicanSailboat/SFPELICANSAILBOATS/
Full keel version did California to Hawaii.
Not great windward performance.

Weston Farmer, thought that Sam Rabl was clearly a genius and considers
his V-hull 18' “Picaroon I” the most seaworthy for its size. It looks
like:
http://www.dngoodchild.com/5316.htm

Flattop version:
http://www.dngoodchild.com/5109.htm

Plans in "Boat Building in Your Own Backyard" by Sam Rabl.

Best of luck

Mat

[Meerkat]

Garland; Yup, I kind of like the Eventides YM Senior's (http://www.eventides.org/senior.htm) sturdy, no nonsense look about her - I've pointed John Welsford at her as a design inspiration. I hope he'll do something similar while casting the hull into the stringer/lapstrake technique he likes to give a more rounded hull shape and maybe 6" more beam. I'm also pretty tempted by the Eventides 3-Tonner (http://www.eventides.org/3tonner.htm) in the cabin/deck (not flush decked) version, but at 20' it seems a bit big for a weekender. I'd ask John to do the same stringer/lapstrake idea and draw up a bilgekeel version if I went towards it.

[ 01-01-2003, 03:37 AM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[Bruce Hooke]

I did the Maine to Florida trip, and back, in a 25' O'Day Tempest during a year off from college back in the late 80's. It was a grand trip, but do realize that on a boat that size you are pretty much camping. I would say that the roughest parts of the trip in terms of exposure to the open ocean were, Portland, Maine to Cape Ann, the Jersey shore, and Delaware Bay. I did not feel like my boat was suitable for crossing the gulf stream, mostly because the cockpit was big enough so that if it filled with water it would pretty near sink the boat. But with the right design it would be viable.

For comments on the interior layout see my post on this thread http://media5.hypernet.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002251

I would put a high priority on shallow draft because that opens up a lot more anchorages, which helps a lot in these days of crowded waterfronts. What's great in a little boat like this is that you can nose into some cove or creek and find out if it's deep enough by trial-and-error. If I ran aground I could usually just spin the boat on it's keel using the outboard motor and power right back off!

[rbgarr]

For anyone interested in a catboat project see the classifieds section at the Catboat Association page. I have no connection with it.

[Steve Paskey]

Back again after some home renovation projects.

Thanks for reminding me that a catboat is potentially a very good option. (Scott: I haven't read either "The boy, Me and the Cat" or "The Compleat Cruiser," but would like to read both.) Among the advantages is that my fiance, who enjoys sailing, likes the looks of catboats. Might make it easier to sell her on building one in the backyard!

Brewer's 20-footer and Tony Diaz's BUCK both look like quite a project, though BUCK in particular looks like a very handy boat. The 17-foot Wittholz boat from WB might suffice, and the 18-foot Fenwick Williams design is lovely -- more work, but possibly worth it.

Part of my problem in general is that nearly all of my sailing has been done in small daysailers (most recently a melonseed skiff). I need to get a handle on just how small a boat I'd be comfortable with. (Matt Layden's Paradox is over the edge, but I wouldn't rule out the YM Senior.)

According to B&B website, the Princess sharpie was designed for a fellow who used to have a catboat and wanted something "less cranky." Bolger's Bright Thread was also designed for a former catboat owner. Says Bolger: "Like the best of her kind, this cat was fast, weatherly, and handy, rewarding skill and experience with spirited performance. She was not a vehicle for tranquility. A bad decision, or bad luck, or distraction at the wrong time, had potential for embarrassment or worse. He decided to try for a boat that could be cruised in a more relaxed state of mind."

I can't speak from experience, but as I understand it catboats can sometimes be a real handful when running downwind. How much of a problem is this, really?

[ 01-03-2003, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: Steve Paskey ]

[Steve Paskey]

A few stray thoughts about other options . . .

Meerkat, I'm pleased to hear about the design you're trying to pry out of John Welsford. I had thought about contacting him myself -- it's a pity that he doesn't have a design with a cabin that's smaller than the Penguin, and more of a cruiser than Sweet Pea. Your design ideas sound great -- I'll write and give him a poke.

Garland et al.: the Princess Sharpie has been growing on me, and could well be the ticket. There's likely enough room to suit me, with little intrusion from the CB trunk, and the shallow draft and tabernacled rig would be very handy. She has sort of a Chesapeake workboat aesthetic that I like -- the absolute epitome of which is Chapelle's "one-sail camp boat" (aka Right Bower), a 21-foot skiff with cuddy and covered motorwell that was featured in BDQ.

I also like the looks of the YM Senior, though she's definitely at the small end of the spectrum. In that size range, the design that really floats my boat is a little strip-planked gaff yawl called the SHILLING:
www.boats-uk.co.uk/Pages/Willow%20Bay/Shilling.htm (http://www.boats-uk.co.uk/Pages/Willow%20Bay/Shilling.htm)
Roughly the same length and beam as the YM Senior, and she borrows the Senior's interior arrangements.

[ 01-03-2003, 01:35 AM: Message edited by: Steve Paskey ]

[Meerkat]

Steve; I believe it was I who pointed out the Shilling to you smile.gif

The think I ultimately didn't like about the Shilling is that the two seats are only 23" wide! I felt like I would end up having the feeling that I would be sitting in an economy coach airline seat and with similar leg room. The presence of the c/b trunk divided up the cabin so that one wouldn't gain space by single-handing her.

I think the YM Senior is beefier then the Shilling and I think John could be persuaded to design a more voluminous boat even if the Senior isn't. Even if it where close to the same size, using an external keel or bilgekeels and a ring frame in lieu of a compression post or mast heel would open up the interior space nicely.

I was pretty unhappy that the Shilling didn't turn out to be suitable. I had lusted long over the study plans and had bonded with the design. It took some time to contact and ask Phil Swift the right questions and then I was really disappointed. She's such a lady's slipper of a boat <sigh>.

John has worked up a new design called "Pathfinder" which is a larger version of his (almost signature) "Navigator" design. I'm pretty sure he's got plans to put a lid on her. 17'6" x 6'5". She's a c/b design, but maybe John could be persuaded to design bilgekeels as an alternative. http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/store/plans/jw/pathfinder/index.htm

[ 01-03-2003, 03:26 AM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[Tomcat]

Hi Steve,

How are the houseboat plans sitting?

I am a big believer in never amateur building boats you want to sail. Meaning build boats because you want to build a boat before you die. Buy boats if you want to sail before your die. If you insist that what you really want to do is build a boat and sail it before you die, then I still recomend buying a boat, going sailing for 3 months, then coming back and building and sailing.

There are some exceptions, if you know how to build fast already, and choose a very simple design, that might be one thing. But the dream boat for the dream trip, I don't think it is adviseable or simple. You may think you want the cat boat, and spend your first anchorage with a couple on an expansive 30' catamaran, and maybe change your mind.

I have a very knowledgeable friend who has been in the boat trades since college. He took a 3 month trip on a trimaran, and decided that the cat was the only way to go. At least his interest stayed within the family...

Start a thread called "so you built your dream boat, and went on your dream trip, what did you learn from it"

[DaBoss]

Hey Steve,

One more thought............If you like the designs and the concepts and philosophies of John Welsford, then you might give his 6 meter
Whaler a look. It is a nice simple double-ender that sets essentially the same sail design as the Navigator boats. Although designed as an open boat, there is plenty of room to add a small cabin, and John has even mentioned that he may someday get around to drawing one up for her. She'd turn out nicely I'd think.

[Thad]

Finally and once again, I will mention the Presto boats of Ralph Munroe since no one else has. Shallow draft, comfortable round bottom sharpies, able to take the ground, unstayed sharpie gaff ketch rig. Some of the Crocker and Culler variations are worthy.

[cdragon]

Steve,
A few thoughts on your trip and boat. First off, dunno how big of a guy you are or how used to living in small spaces you are, but as anyone whop has spent more than a couple of weeks vacation on board-your boat will get small - and not just because you get tired of small spaces, but you'll fill it up with provisions and bits of gear etc, even going very simple a la LFH with a jug o water and canned food requires alot of cans, especially on a 17 footer...I think you'd want to go "as big" as you can based on your budget, your plans, etc etc-rather than "as small" as you can...Well, now I'm getting going so I can't stop...The ICW - it is kind of cool, have done it lots of times, but it is also full of big powerboats (and sail) trying to make time each day to get south (or north)-read; more traffic, wake etc than you'd think. Now, if you go during times other than the north/south migrations it is a different story. You definitely need power-someone mentioned a Honda 4 stroke (with or w/o battery charging) which I agree with-if you're gonna go without an engine then go for it, if you're gonna have an engine, then have a good and strong one. A boat that comes to my mind for your idea of simplicity, shoal draft etc is one of Bruce Kirby's Norwalk Island Sharpies-they come in various length designs, I've known a couple that were built (26 footer I think?) and they are really neat boats, pretty simple to build, very shoal, some room down below, clever and simple rigs and they can sail and power. And yes, you need a full length (to your length) cockpit-WITHOUT QUESTION-cuz you are going to want to lie there looking at the stars, contemplating life and expanding your mind, plus, you'll probably eat alot of your meals there, socialize there and even sleep there if the skeeters are at bay. A good awning is absolutely key-nice if it can catch rainwater for you to...I'd better stop here-it's a forum not a beginning novel, but it sure is nice to think about this stuff again while it is snowing outside!! 'Course, I'm going snowboarding tomorrow-you gotta make the most of your situation!!

[Meerkat]

Steve; I just read David Hume's "Blueberry" book about his and Bolger's design of a 20'6"x7'3"x2'8" gaff cutter. Pretty impressive! It's amazing how one can create a really nicely traditional looking boat with a single chine ply hull! With an outboard in a well instead of the inboard and "the pot" where the inboard now is, she would be ideal for extended coastal cruising (in the current design, "the pot" is in the lazerette and one does one's business "out back" under a tent). A very cozy singlehander with room for the occasional guest.

http://personal.riverusers.com/~emkay/blueberry.jpg

Kindly posted for me by Mike Keers over in "RFI: Blueberry" in Misc. Boat-related.

[ 01-03-2003, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[garland reese]

Nice boat Meerkat! That's a single chine ply design?

[Meerkat]

Yup - amazing isn't it! smile.gif

Interior is basically a v-berth, a 34" settee facing a galley bench the same length. There's a locker outboard of the settee. Aft of that is the aft cabin bulkhead. Inboard engine under the bridgedeck. "The pot" is aft in the lazerette.

There's foam for 1100# of flotation: in a bow compartment (300#) and just aft the cabin under the cockpit seats (400# each). This seems pretty drastic to me and I think one could do a better interior if one was willing to give up the inboard and put an outboard in a well further aft. This would enable one to lengthen the cabin by a couple of feet and still offer a decent cockpit IMO. It would also offer a lot more living space below deck. Also, it would allow putting "the pot" under the companionway/cockpit sole and have access to it below deck.

If the foam flotation was desired and it was applied as sheet over more of the hull (thus doubling as insulation and flotation), one of the areas under the cockpit seats could be a footwell for the settee to work as a sea berth or 3rd occassional guest and the other potentially a cockpit seat locker. As drawn, the cockpit and lazerette take up 40% of the LOD (8'), which seems like an awfull lot on a 20' hull!

[Steve Paskey]

Blueberry is indeed a nice design. (As it happens, the original was up for sale earlier this year.) All things considered, though, I think I'd lean towards something with a shallower draft.

Yes, Meerkat, you did tell me about the Shilling. As I recall, you were very excited about her. Bloody devious of you not to give me an update.

I do like John Welsford's boats, and the 6-meter Whaler with a "lid" would be an interesting possibility. Given that she's double-ended, I was wondering about the motor, but there is a well tucked away in the stern.

The suggestion of a Presto sharpie reminded me of another possible design: Karl Stambaugh's inelegantly-named "Trailer Sailer 24: www.cmdboats.com/trailersailer24.htm (http://www.cmdboats.com/trailersailer24.htm)

A lug-rigged cat yawl with leeboards, one foot of draft with the boards up. (And there's an optional sprit yawl rig -- how often do you see that, other than between the covers of a Pete Culler book?) She's flat-bottomed, but with a strip-planked bilge radius rather than a hard chine. And with the 8-foot beam, the flush deck, and the leeboards, she looks to be very room inside.

[ 01-04-2003, 08:53 AM: Message edited by: Steve Paskey ]

[Steve Paskey]

Another design inspired by the Presto sharpie, this one a 20-footer from Murray Isles Design in Tasmania:
www.users.bigpond.com/islesdesign/classic6.html (http://www.users.bigpond.com/islesdesign/classic6.html)

Looks like she uses the same construction as the Trailer Sailer 24. Hard to make out too many details from the drawings, but it's clear that they've crammed four berths into the cabin, two of which could go away. I've e-mailed them for the free Adobe Acrobat study package.

[Steve Paskey]

Tomcat: The houseboat plans? That's my other crackpot scheme, a little cabin on the water that I can quickly motor to a quiet creek somewhere.

I hear you about the building versus sailing, but building is definitely part of the plan for me. I have one of Roger Crawford's fiberglass melonseed skiffs for days when I just want to go sailing.

[ 01-04-2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: Steve Paskey ]

[Meerkat]

Is it me, or is there a general lack of 16' (max) small cabin sailboats around - plans or production?

[Steve Paskey]

There don't seem to be many, and Bolger's Micro gets much of the attention.

Have you seen Karl Stambaugh's Meadow Bird -- an update on Sam Rabl's Titmouse? He doesn't say much about her on his site, but the first link shows that she can be built with a lapstrake ply hull (rather than strip) and a yawl sail plan. The second link has more info and a picture of a finished boat. Other options include a hinged lift-up top on the cuddy. Looks like she still suffers, though, from one of Shilling's drawbacks -- a cb trunk in the middle of an already small cabin.

www.cmdboats.com/mbirdk.htm (http://www.cmdboats.com/mbirdk.htm)
www.databoat.com/Page_ProductDetail.asp?sid=139&pid=2956 (http://www.databoat.com/Page_ProductDetail.asp?sid=139&pid=2956)

Paul Fisher has an assortment of possibilities, some of which include details for bilge keels. Nothing there jumps out at me, though.

www.selway-fisher.com/PCup16.htm (http://www.selway-fisher.com/PCup16.htm)

[ 01-07-2003, 07:29 PM: Message edited by: Steve Paskey ]

[Meerkat]

Steve; Often have I visited that Selway-Fisher pocket cruiser page. Of all of them on that page the one that does anything at all for me (not much) is the "Sand Grouse". She needs a longer, re-styled cabin for one thing. That the c/b trunk is below the cabin sole, except for the heel (under the bridgedeck?), is a good thing. Unfortunately, the heel makes it hard to extend the cabin length without it's intruding.

I'm still talking to John Welsford about the 16' design I described earlier in this thread. With bilge keels and a ring frame to carry the mast load, she would have an open interior. I hope she will (not sure how to put this) have the same sort of mass/sturdy look as the YM Senior or Charles Stock's boat called "Shoal Waters" which can be seen on the yahoo microcruising forum.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microcruising/files/Attachments/asw4.jpg
"Shoal Waters" under storm sails
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microcruising/files/Attachments/asw2.jpg
"Shoal Waters" all sails flying in light airs
Look in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/microcruising/files/Attachments/ for sw1.jpg - sw3.jpg and asw1.jpg - asw7.jpg for additional pics and info.

[ 01-07-2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[Leon Steyns]

Steve,

Maybe an off-topic boat, but if you're interested in a proven bluewater cruiser with very shallow draft I would recommend a look at the Atalanta 26. It was designed by Alan Vines and Uffa Fox for Fairey Marine Ltd. in the Fifties (hot molded, but you can cold mold now with Agba still available) and probably the very first true trailer sailer. With her twin keels up, she will float in 18" of water! Check her out a these links: http://www.uffafox.com/atalanta.htm
http://basic1.easily.co.uk/03C052/048027/atalanta26.htm

And a picture:
http://basic1.easily.co.uk/03C052/048027/atalanta1.jpg

Oh yeah, there's one for sale in the USA. Contact Colin Twyford of the Atalanta Owners Association at secretary@atalantaowners.org.uk (and ask for A107 "Xapu").

Greets, Leon Steyns.

[ 01-08-2003, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: Leon Steyns ]

[John Bell]

The only part of the ICW I have any experience with is in GA, Northern FL, and SC. The GA part in particular is a pretty wild place, lots of winding creeks and rivers with strong tidal flows. In my estimation, it's not a good place for someone who wants to use sails. My choice for such a trip would be a powerboat.

If trailerability is paramount, then something like Bolger's 29' Tennessee (with an upgraded interior) or 31' Topaz would be the way to go. If you forgo trailerability, then more options open up like Bolger's 40' Dakota or 51' Wyoming. There's also Mark Van Abbema's 39'er to consider as well. Each of these boats require minimum power, from 10 HP in the case of Tennessee to 50HP in the case of Wyo, so they would be pretty economical to run, particularly if you stuck to displacement speeds. Even at 6-7 knots you'd be much faster than sailing, and probably faster than an auxilary sailboat. Also, since you aren't building an expensive rig, the cost of these larger craft won't be that much more than a smaller auxilary sailboat.

Another design I'd consider would be Bolger's new 31' Windermere, a scale-up of the 22' Champlain power cruiser.

[ 01-08-2003, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: John Bell ]

[Mark Van]

Thanks for mentioning my Power Sharpie, since I plan on making part of that trip next summer. I will head north from south Florida untill Labor day, and then I will turn around. I will probably spend most of the summer in Chesapeke Bay.

Mark

[john welsford]

Theres a whole lot of issues involved here. A government ( or governments depending on how you look at it) who see recreational boaters as fair game for extra taxes , long canals which are not good places to sail ( on the ICW) some serious water bu the standards of a small boat, climatic variation that makes a cabin a real advantage, storage for a longish voyage, the ergonomics of fitting ones body into a small space, probably at an age when it doesnt fold up was easily as it once did, an ability to be fairly self sufficient in terms of cooking, washing and other bodily functions and so on.
Its an interesting one though, and not impossible. The difficulty lies in matching the boat to the perceptions of the user. When working close to the limit those perceptions are as real a limit as the physical ones, its easy to live with slight variations to ones expectations when on a forty footer but in the sort of environment that a 16 footer affords even very small annoyances can be intolerable.

But Meercat has me on the hook, I had a 16 ft long 2 berth version of my Tread Lightly design in mind but he wants a stem and less unconventional styling so we are going for a bigger version of Houdini with a gaff yawl rig .

Lets hear what people think are the minimum standards of accommodation and facilities.

Should be fun.

John Welsford

[Steve Paskey]

Hi John: Glad to see you jump into this discussion. I would have been interested in a scaled up version of Tread Lightly (I like the stying), but a scaled up version of Houdini is also intriguing. Houdini is beamy for her length – if you could keep similar proportions, that would increase available space.

A few other initial thoughts. It may be different in other parts of the U.S. (or the world), but taxation here is not nearly as much of an issue as the cost of storing the boat. Options for mooring are limited, slips and dry storage are priced by the foot. Many people (myself included) aren’t able to keep a boat and trailer parked at the house -- thus I'd need to pay for year-round storage.

As for the interior, I haven’t spent any overnights on a boat under 27 feet, so I can’t speak from experience. I’m quite sure that a cb trunk in the middle of the cabin would be undesirable; that decent sitting headroom is essential; and that a cabin with large port lights (see Sam Devlin’s Lichen) would be a big plus for me. An easily-erected tent over the cockpit would be useful. And I’ve wondered whether one could design an interior suitable both for weekends with two and long excursions by one, by making one bunk permanent and the second to be removed or folded out of the way when not needed.

All that said, I'm not sure that anything smaller than the Princess 22 or Devlin's Lichen would do it for me if I'm going to be spending MONTHS on the boat, but I'm very interested to see what you can come up with.

[ 01-09-2003, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Steve Paskey ]

[ishmael]

Check out the modified Seabright skiff by Atkin, posted on the last page of the "good sea boats" thread. Tony posted it along with a bunch of other nice looking small Atkin designs.

If strip built it would work nicely, and what a looker! Maybe a little more project than you're specifying, but these things have a way of growing a bit. :D

Jack

P.S. Another look...looks to me like that boat has a chine. Hmm.

[ 01-09-2003, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: ishmael ]

[Meerkat]

I'm glad John has jumped in too. Things are still in the conceptual stage, but I think it's going to be pretty much the layout described by me earlier:

Double berth forward (or as John likes to call it, the "double fleapit" ;) ) Ventilation/escape/star viewing hatch over head (aft) end. There will doubtless be room outboard of the berth p&s for lockers/shelves and/or clothes hammocks.

Settee to port about 4' (I'm hoping for 4'6") long with a 2'6" footwell under the bridgedeck/cockpit. The settee will be inboard enough to offer relaxed seating facing thwartship and gives good storage outboard of it and with the vital bookshelf too!

Galley Flat (or if you prefer, galley bench) to starboard. This could be good for anything from a campstove up to a small drop in stove (without oven). A small locker under the bridgedeck for pots 'n pans 'n crockery or whatever. Shelves outboard for more kitchen items and groceries. If built with coverings for the stove, sink (if fitted) etc., the bench could double as a table or place to prop up your feet of an evening. I've also investigated the possibility of a small cabin heater at the forward end of the bench (with suitable shielding (bulkhead) to separate it from the forward berth, but so far they put out enough heat to require that all ports be open while it's in operation to avoid cooking the occupant(s). The Dickinson solid fuel heater is one of the lowest output heaters I've found so far FWIW. (Any suggestions on that score are welcome!)

Midships under the companionway is the locker for the porta poti. I've spec-ed them out and a 14hx16wx18d" ID locker will take any of the 2.6-3 gallon units I've found (Thetford, Sanipoti). The idea is to have a duct to a solar exhaust vent on the stern quarter to pull air out of the cabin, through the locker and thence overboard. One pulls a curtain across the companionway (or puts in the washboards), pulls out the pot, does one's thing and etc. (gentlemen sit for all functions of course)

Aft, the cockpit will be on the small side - adequate for 2, comfortable for 1. Small footwell - probably not self-draining, but one may hope. Starboard side will have a cockpit locker, maybe a smaller one on the port side if the footwell doesn't take up too much room. A few inches of aft deck or maybe even a small lazarette brings us to the end of things.

Rig is a gaff yawl. Plan is to design for hull speed with standard suit of sails in 10kts wind and 2 sets of reef points for brisker conditions. Not sure what the plan is for light airs yet. The bowsprit will be reefable (retractable) to reduce LOA to avoid excess "per foot" marina/storage charges.

I have no plans for an engine (yuloh anyone? smile.gif ) so the yawl is important for the ease with which it can be used to back the boat by backing the mizzen. Plus, the mizzen mast makes it easier to rig a cockpit tent. A yawl rig is also good for varying the sailplan to suit wind conditions. Jib and mizzen only are good when the wind pipes up.

I suspect John will make some provision for those desiring an outboard.

The underbody will feature bilgekeels and a skeg to protect the rudder. Moderately annoying (I've heard) to get on and off a trailer but the payoff is the unencumbered cabin and a reasonably shallow draught so as to be able to nose into the interesting nooks and crannies along the coast and to dry out on the level.

The cabin top should be large enough for a useful amount of solar cells. I'm hoping that it will have that nice stepped look that "Shoal Waters" has, but I suspect the designer has other ideas ;)

The interior space is probably generous enough to add insulation/flotation foam to make ye castle unsinkable (in theory: I refer you to the Titanic for practical views on that matter ;) ).

John is definitely keeping the beamy proportions of Houdini! LOL

These are, of course, my ideas. Our august designer may well have other ideas and so can't be held to the above scheme etc. etc. etc.

[Meerkat]

I forgot to mention that she's going to be a "Piece of cake to build" (sez hizzoner) and a decent performer: "Houdini is a very capable sailer, not as fast as the planing hulls in high winds but she is definitely no slug . I have seen <a friend> cream a couple of Navigators in light weather which upset the Navigator owners no end. She is not a screamer for racing around the bouys but would put up a surprisingly good average speed over a distance."
...
"I have found that the performance deteriorates markedly as the Beam/Length ratio of a flat bottom panel goes up and that is one of the reasons for Houdini's shape: the easy bilges and flared topsides enable the very wide boat to slip along nicely and still have an easy motion in most conditions. Something that few boats of her size will have."
...
"I lent my Houdini to a friend for a week's cruise: he sailed her on her standard rig in winds so light he could not feel the breeze, nothing else was moving except him (there are technical reasons for that) and got caught out in what he thought was 50knots but I suspect was 35 or so, and survived to make port to set up camp for the night."

[Meerkat]

A late breaking development:
"Bilge keels are unlikely to work well on a hull of this proportions as I cannot get an area long enough where the waterflow lines are parallel to the centreline which is the key to Robin's theory with his Bluebird designs( Lord Riversdale). I will draw her with a fixed keel and think about putting a centreboard housed within under the cabin sole."

The "Lord Riversdale" reference is to an article on the web describing how properly fitted bilgekeels actually outperform conventional single keels. It also notes that placement etc. are relatively critical and badly designed ones are what tends to give bilgekeels a bad name.

If it ends up being a single keel or keel-c/b, then a drying leg or legs as the english use would serve to keep her upright when drying out.

Steve, if you feel this is hijacking your thread, I'm happy to move this discussion to it's own thread

[ 01-09-2003, 05:03 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[Steve Paskey]

That's mighty courteous of you. As far as I'm concerned you're not "hijacking" the thread, but it does occur to me that people who are not following this particular thread might be interested in the proposed design and your discussions with John. A new thread might pull them in.

[Meerkat]

Steve; I'm happy to keep it on this thread for now and maybe start another thread as things progress. John says there may be some drawings in the next few days to get a feel for her.

I'm the one who's keen on the registration/taxation thing. In WA state, a boat 16' and under without an engine escapes registration (put an engine on an inner tube and you're at their mercy!). I have not checked specifically, but this state has a nasty tendency to asess taxes based on _new_ valuation and _never_ go down from there (IE: no depreciation). It got so bad, the voters did away with the practice for motor vehicles and introduced $35 flat annual registration - and the pols are _still_ throwing roadblocks into it after no less then three general election votes for it! Property taxes are based on the most expensive use of the property, _not_ the house that's actually on it. There are 800 sq ft houses in high rent districts of the city with insanely high property taxes because of this.