What to charge for labor?

[welshmike]

Could someone give me an idea of what it would cost to restore this 17' runabout. I've never worked on a boat before, but I am an accomplished woodworker. The owners will be paying for all materials, I just need to know what to charge. Since I've never done this before, I'm not looking to charge the same as an established business, just a good honest price. It's pretty much a total rebuild.
I welcome all and any input you may have.
Mike

[Dryfeet]

Calculate what you think your time is worth (i.e. what you want to make) and add 50%! That ensures your wages and covers your overhead and tax burden. Remember, the time that the project takes 'on the floor' is not the total time you'll spend on the project either. You'll be on the phone, sweeping the shop, running errands chasing down materials, etc, etc.

BTW, don't worry whether you're making 'professional' wages. They don't make what they're worth either! Just be fair with your time clock and do a good job. That's what the owner is hoping for. If he's complaining about the cost--- drop the project and RUN.

(This is the view point of one who would potentially hire a craftsman, not one who is trying to make a living actually being one)

[ChaseKenyon]

Big WHoa

Ask any of us who have been involved in runabout restorations. Ask Eric Hvalsoe, Ask the others here.

Most runabout restorations take twice the material at twice the bd/ft cost and four times the labor that any sane cabinet maker would expect.

post some better pictures and I and I hope others will help you through the estimate of work process. Then you get to go on to figuring materials and labor.

[paladin]

I hoe others wil help you through the estimate of work process. Thenh you get to go on to figuring materials and labor.
__________________

You izza what?

[MiddleAgesMan]

Depends on lots of things including how badly you need/want the work. Since it's self-employment you need a higher hourly rate than you would want if you're just punching a time clock in a cabinet shop. IMO a range from 30 to 50 dollars per hour wouldn't be unreasonable.

[Thad Van Gilder]

I charge $50 / hour as an experienced boatwright. When I bring in extra woodworking help that is experienced working with wood but not boats I pay $10 / hour.

Is this what you want to know?

-Thad

[Todd D]

It depends on a lot of factors.

Will the work be done in your shop? If so you need to factor in your costs to heat and insure the shop/project among other shop costs.

Where are you located? If you are in the states you will need to consider that as a self employed individual you will be paying your full social security and medicare taxes. You will want to increase your hourly rate by about 7% to cover that.

Tool costs - You may need to buy some new tools and will definitely have wear and tear on your tools, so you will want to consider adding a couple of bucks an hour to cover tool wear and tear.

The project is going to take a lot of hours. Just restoring the varnish after you finish the wood work is going to be a 60-80 hour job. If the owners are lloking for a total cost estimate we will need a lot more information to give you reasonable numbers. However, a full restoration could easily run to 1,000 man hours.

[mmd]

I would suggest that Thad's voice is the one to be heard over the general din. He pretty much nailed it...

[capt jake]

I restored a runabout about 2 years ago. It was in better shape than shown and I had in excess of 400 hours invested. My own boat, but I will never recover the hours invested when I sell it.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

An experienced woodworker would already know what to charge. What Chris said.

[Dale Genther]

We charge $50/hr. For general woodworking, refinishing, etc. A little more for systems, electrical and electronic work. I am ABYC Certified in Marine Systems, so in my mind I should charge more for this type of wore than the refinishing/woodworking stuff. These rates are about $15 to $20 an hour less than the marinias charge. When I am working on a boat for a marina, they pay me my normal rate but bill me out at their rate so thay can make a profit on my labor.

[Albert in France]

There are two parts to the answer:

How much per hour?
and
How many hours.

Once you've agreed an hourly rate with the customer I suggest that you break the job into smallish, reasonably measurable chunks and quote a number of hours for each stage before you start on it. The first one might be removing all the hardware, or stripping off the deck.

Try to avoid quoting for more than a few days work at a time untul you get a lot more experience and you've found all the hidden horrors.

This the approach I use for any commercial work unless the customer is prepared to hire me on an open-ended contract.

[Chris Coose]

I have an historic skiff that I am not going to get to. In the past month I have been working out arrangements with a well known boat builder to do the woodwork.
Guess what the arrangements have been about?
That's right. The money.

I would never go to an inexperienced boatbuilder (never crossed my mind) and out of respect for each other, the costs (including materials) get established as near as precise as possible.

[floatingkiwi]

You are worth whatever anyone is willing to pay you. How much would you pay somebody to do the same work.

[holzbt]

My shop rate is $60/hr for repairs. I find that $10/hr for help around here doesn't get you much that you'd be happy with.

[Boneflowers]

Sounds like a fun project! I don't know a lot about boat repair, but I do have a lot of experience with business contracts. If you do take this on, make sure you get a solid contract with the owners that outlines your project scope, hourly rate, the process of how materials are purchased (are you buying them and being reimbursed? If so, write up a method for this so you don't end up too much out of pocket during the process), how you will insure / guarantee your work if something breaks, budget limits, and how to re-evaluate the scope of work if it ends up being more extensive than you thought. Get a lawyer to look over it to make sure you are protected. Good luck!

[Typhoon]

Think of a number and double it an old, wealthy boss of mine used to say.

Regards, Andrew.

[floatingkiwi]

Now Boneflowers, as much as I hate to admit it because I tend to give people too much credit, is the most sensible approach I have seen in a while and I wish I had adhered to similar advice when doing work for dear old ladies in the recent past.

[Thad Van Gilder]

$10 an hour gets me a retired guy that wants to learn how to fix boats. There are many around.

In fact I have been know to charge a client $10 an hour to let him help me restore his boat. That does slow down the process you know. (of course I tell him I charge $60 / hour, wink wink.)

-Thad

[seo]

Just from the two little pictures, it's apparent that the boat is in rough shape, and that's before you've showed us anything of the condition of the backbone, ribs, fastenings, etc.
The fact that an owner is thinking of having this boat fixed up indicates to me that he's never been through the process before, and doesn't have any real idea how much it's going to cost. My guess is that even if he doesn't have a dime invested at this point that the cost of repair will exceed the market value of the restored boat.
I think the technical term for this is "pouring money down a rat hole."
The fact that an inexperienced owner is trying to find an inexperienced builder suggests to me that he is hoping to get it done on the cheap. The problem is that it's very possible that even if you gave him your labor for free that the material costs would exceed the market value of the restored vessel.
It's easy to say that if you have a lawyer right up a good tight contract that you're okay, but I don't think that's how it works out. If the owner gets ten thousand dollars in and decides that he's in over his head, he may well just stop writing you checks. So you have a partially dismantled, partially restored hulk in your shop. You can pay a lawyer to take this to court, and you might very well wind up owning clear title to said hulk. Wonderful...
My suggestion would be that you and the owner would trailer this boat around to a couple of shops where they do this kind of work. There is very likely a lake somewhere in Texas where people with money have places, and varnished runabouts are fashionable. If so, there's someone who around who keeps those boats spiffy. They don't maintain themselves. If necessary he should be willing to pay an experienced guy his shop rate for inspecting the hull and giving a short joblist and materials list, and an estimate.
My suggestion is that an inexperienced guy who hasn't worked on boats before, no matter how good a woodworker, will spend between two and three times as many hours as the experienced guy who has a shop set up for the work. This isn't woodworking-it's boatbuilding, and woodworking is just one of the skills involved.
Let's say that an experienced shop says that the job list will be something like:
100 hours set-up and demo
60 hours transom
240 hours frames and backbone
160 hours planking
160 hours deck and cockpit framing, deck
120 hours interior joinerwork
240 hours paint and varnish

Plus:
Wiring, rechroming hardware, rebuild engine & reverse gear, recondition shaft, prop, strut, new steering cables, clean out fuel tank, upgrade fuel system to current standards, upholstery & carpet, fit out boat with needed hardware and equipment. New trailer?

And if the owner doesn't blanch, then you might tell him that you can do the job for the same price, or at a 10% discount.

Mainly, my advice would be that if this looks like an attractive line of work, and if there is a population of this type of boat around where you live, or would like to live, then I'd spend at least a year working for someone who knows this business. There are hot-spots for these boats. Up here in New England I think it's Lake Winnipesaukee in New Hampshire. I think also in the Adirondacks of New York, an area in Ontario north of Toronto, and maybe around Lake Tahoe? I'm sure there are other areas, and probably isolated shops all over. There might be a League of Runabout Restorationists (or something) as well.

Or if NOBODY does this kind of work in Texas, then get him to pay you to take enough of the interior out to shoot at least a hundred good digital pictures,

[pcford]

Think of a number and double it an old, wealthy boss of mine used to say.



Ah, an optimist.

I have been doing runabout restoration for nearly 40 years...I still can't get a boat restoration numbers right...oh, simple jobs like runabout revarnishing or replacing a few planks...yes. To estimate the time for a runabout restoration...is quite hard. You can't tell what is going on until you get the boat apart.

(I have been doing video producing for the last several years...have not screwed up badly for the numbers yet. knock on wood.)

My wildass guess is that the job is maybe a $50,000 job...it appears to be a major rebuild. The boat (a Chris Continental?) might be worth 30 to 40 k. with a good rebuild.

Of course, your mileage may vary.

Good luck!

[Eric Hvalsoe]

In the boat business for almost 30 years, officially charge $50 hr, sort of, when I can get, discounting other chunks of time and various costs that never actually get covered. Recently about the least that I have paid a talented assistant is $15/hr.

Suck it up Welshmike - you don't know what this job is going to cost and you would be a fool to peg it on whatever anybody here says (due respect to PF). Tell the owner you don't know what it is going to cost but that you would like to work for a mutually agreeable hourly wage. If you have not done this kind of work before, make that perfectly clear to the owner. If the owner thinks you are an honest guy, and is blessed with a very flexible concept of time, he might go along for the ride. Don't fall behind on your billing. In the end, despite what kind of 'reasonable' wage you might charge - you may end up costing no less than a more experienced shop, maybe more, it's hard to say. Document and clearly explain your work. Your question, absurd as it is, gets asked all the time around here.

[ssor]

I would only take it as an open ended time and material job with periodic draws. I tend to be generous with my time and honest with myself as to how long it should have taken to do a job. If I screw up a plank I don't count the time it takes to prepare a correct one.

[chas]

Charge him 50 cents less than the demands of the best guy. Then convince him you're the best guy!

"Your question, absurd as it is" - I like that, LOL

[donald branscom]

Boat wood working has issues that other types of wood working do not have.
Here is what I would do. Tell the owner you will work for an hourly wage. PERIOD!!! DO NOT QUOTE THE JOB no matter what anybody says.
Getting paid by the hour is fair to both parties. Keep a log book and write down when you start and when you stop etc.,.

Next I would hire a boat surveyor to come look at the boat and tell you if it is worthwhile. Get the survey. Next plan the job according to the results of the survey, as far as materials etc. Get ad vice from a boat wright and pay them.
Just when you get to something you need advice on.

The owner is trying to save money. So help the owner save money. Charge less than a boat shop but do the job right. And you can do that by getting tech advice from time to time. Pay for that advice but do not charge the owner. Just consider it part of your education,and then on the next restoration you WILL know more about what you are doing.

Just like a sculptor would hire another tradesman for information about part of a project they are not well versed in. It is just part of your job and part of your education.

[donald branscom]

Charge him 50 cents less than the demands of the best guy. Then convince him you're the best guy!

"Your question, absurd as it is" - I like that, LOL

Would you want someone to do that to you? Think about it.
You sound like one of those ENRON boys that overcharged Californians for electricity and even said "#uck those people in California" (DIRECT QUOTE from telephone conversations), Then when asked during the investigation if they thought that was right they said, " I don't know."

[SunshineBridge]

Hi Mike,
With this amount of decay I would expect further rot in the bottom of the boat due to the ingress of rain water which probably caused this in the first place. If it was termites then it could be anywhere.

It may well be that if the keel and associated frames are as damaged as this it's probably beyond repair. Can you get some better pictures posted?

When I had my boat surveyed the rough estimate for repairs from the the surveyor was around $30,000 (US) and the wood for the majority of these repairs has just cost me $5,000. I'm a very practical person and in the past was an Engineer. In learning the ins and outs of both woodworking and boat building to attempt the repair of my boat, which would otherwise be a write off from a commercial perspective, I would say that your rate should be around half that of an experienced boat builder.

Knowing the wood and how to craft with it is one thing, knowing how to remove and replace boat framing components and planking without the boat losing its shape or strength is quite another. Then we come on to the propulsion, control and bilge systems which is a whole different field.

So I reccon about half the full rate, which seems to be around $50 -60 stateside.

The above comments on setting up a written agreement on billing and defining scope in stages I thought were spot on.

Good luck,

[Breakaway]

The only way you can take this job that's fair to you and the owner is on a time and materials basis. Other courses will have you both on the rocks.

[chas]

“Would you want someone to do that to you? Think about it.” - I thought it was a pretty good description of …

HOW IT WORKS !!

…and as to your opinion of that (Enron and such), well, …..Zzzzzz!

[donald branscom]

“Would you want someone to do that to you? Think about it.” - I thought it was a pretty good description of …

HOW IT WORKS !!

…and as to your opinion of that (Enron and such), well, …..Zzzzzz!

NO, That is NOT how it works.
BTW "HOW IT WORKS" is not a sentence.

zzzzzzzzz??????????

[jgmarine]

Hi,
I work boat repairs, from my garage, and charge $45 to 50 per hour. Seems a good fair price, as most boat yards cost much more!!!
I'f your looking for just the "thrill of the experience"
then maybe less.....

Jack

[jerry bark]

. . . In fact I have been know to charge a client $10 an hour to let him help me restore his boat . . .

-Thad


Now THAT, gentlemen, is a bargain!

If I was preparing to restore a boat and lived nearby I would be all over thad's offer.

Cheers
jerry

[Thad Van Gilder]

That's on top of my wage, and yes, I think it is a bargain as it seams to take twice as long when the owner helps. And its not an offer, as that would be advertising and that is bad. I am just sharing different ways I have worked with people to help them get their boat in the water.

I have also been hired to stop by every saturday for 4 hours or so and show and explain to the owner how to do the next weeks steps.

I get $200 a saturday and they get their boat restored and can say they did all the work themselves...

Its a win-win situation.

-Thad

[Thad Van Gilder]

"…and as to your opinion of that (Enron and such), well, …..Zzzzzz! " -Chas


Is that like a chainsaw... like the texas chainsaw masacre? Is that a threat? I'm confused!

-Thad

[seo]

One approach that I've found useful in deciding whether a project is worth undertaking:
Use a piece of chalk to mark every piece that needs to be renewed. Also mark every piece that has to be taken out to get at the pieces that need to be renewed.
Once finished with the chalk-work, stand back and use your imagination. Try to visualize what you'll have left when all those other parts are removed. What is that worth?
That exercise also helps illustrate to the owner what he's getting into. In the long run it's better to charge a guy a couple of hundred dollars to help him avoid a multi-thousand dollar mistake, as opposed to muttering "caveat emptor" to yourself, and bleeding him. Eventually he will wise up, and even if you escape financially and legally, it's a pretty ugly process.
Of course there are exceptions. I have seen people spend huge amounts of money doing a complete restoration of a boat, more than it was worth. But they were rich, and it was the boat that grandfather took them sailing in for the first time, and the idea of watching it turn to mulch was unacceptable. Well, all right.
I know someone who "restored" a 63' schooner that had an official build date of 1871. Asked to point out a single piece of wood left over from 1871, he had to think long and hard, before pointing out a piece of the keelson. Not a very big piece, either.

[Peter Belenky]

Everyone else has answered the question more-or-less directly, so let me state tangentially that boatbuilding requires more than woodworking skills. You have to know the properties of woods in terms of shrinkage, weight, gluing, and finishing; the holding power and durability of different glues and fasteners; the appearance, protective power, and durability of finishes; the function of structures in providing strength to resist stress, water entry, and decay; and the cost and value of everything. It's true that you have an original to work from, but that won't tell you where a new fastener can be put into an old frame, where a new piece can be scarfed in or sistered, or where the only safe or respectable course is to remove large sections of the hull and replace members. Part of what an owner pays for (if he knows what he is doing) is this knowledge.

[seo]

With a really major rebuild on a light-construction boat, it's really easy to lose the boat's shape. It's pretty likely that it has reshaped itself already, so one of the jobs will be to recover the original shape, and then keep it during the rebuild. My first ever boat repair job was on an Old Town canoe with a half dozen broken and cracked frames, and bad planking in the same area. By the time I was done she had a bulbous belly...Luckily, I was working for family, and I was able to use the old argument: "You pay peanuts for wages, you get monkeys for help."

[jerry bark]

That's on top of my wage, and yes, I think it is a bargain as it seams to take twice as long when the owner helps.

-Thad

I understood it as extra on top of wage, a bargain. twice as long? I guess it depends on the owner,

the saturday consults are a great idea too!

cheers
jerry