Double-Paddle Canoe or Kayak Design?

[Keith Wilson]

I'm about to start a new project, an itty-bitty one-person double-paddle boat, and I'm looking for suggestions and feedback on possible designs.

Here's a description of the intended use and construction parameters:
- Minnesota lakes (possiby rivers and streams) in good weather only.
- One fairly small person, not much gear - say 160# load max.
- Low stress, low effort paddling. Speed is not very important. Stability and comfort are important; the boat should be forgiving of inattention or sloppiness. No greenland kayaks with 19" beam, please.
- Should be light enough to be cartopped by a relatively small person - 30# target weight?
- Should be pretty in a fairly traditional sort of way
- The person for whom I'm building it has a mild preference, mainly aesthetic, for decked boats.
- Will be stored dry and under cover when not in use.
- Needs to tolerate a (very) little abuse - I think a Montfort Geodesic boat would be too fragile.
- I'd prefer plywood lapstrake construction, since it's the devil I know, and it requires less epoxy and sanding than other modern techniques, but I'm open to alternatives.

I'm considering the following
- Mac McCarthy's "Wee Lassie", either strip planked or lapstrake
- Iain Oughtred's "Wee Rob"
- Tom Hill's "Charlotte"
- CLC's "Mill Creek", although I'm not fond of her looks

So, any further suggestions? Anyone with one of these boats who can tell me about how they work?

[John Gearing]

You have some good boats listed there. I'd also suggest taking a good hard look at Pete Culler's Butternut canoe and Walt Simmons' double paddle canoes. Walt's were inspired by Pete's but modified slightly for inshore use in his area. While these boats were designed to be built in traditional lapstrake they can be easily built in ply lapstrake using the Tom Hill technique. I had the good fortune to paddle a beautiful lapstrake ply rendition of a Culler Butternut at Mystic's Small Boat Workshop last June. She was stable and fast and a delight under paddle. I spoke with her owner and he absolutely loved his boat. And she was drop-dead gorgeous to boot, if you like the whaleboat type of styling. I do, so she looked great to me. Cheers!

[DougWilde]

I have two Charlottes. Beautiful boats, lightweight, very easy to paddle. I am very pleased with Venetia and Merrisa.
Having said that, they are a wet paddle. Water tends to come aboard, even with the drip guards on the double-blade paddle. And one sits in the bottom so I wear swimming trunks 'cause after a while I'll be damp on the bottom.

For those reasons I'd suggest looking into decked design. By the same token, one could easily attach a removable fabric deck to a Charlotte. This would have the added bonus of shading one's legs.

Doug Wilde

[Keith Wilson]

Right, thanks. I forgot to mention Culler's Butternut, and I had forgotten about Walt Simmons. Pete Culler's ghost might be offended by building in plywood, though. tongue.gif I think if I build a Charlotte I'll add a small seat about 2" off the bottom to keep one's tush dry.

Where can you get Pete Culler's plans now? And Tom Hill used to have a website, but I can't find it - does anyone have any current contact info for him?

[ 04-11-2002, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: Keith Wilson ]

[JimD]

I'm not familiar with the designs you've mentioned so perhaps you're all way ahead of me here, but when you mentioned paddling on both lakes and rivers...are these designs v-bottom or flat? Open water kayaks (for lakes)are more or less all v-bottomed so they will track in a straight line when the paddler moves the boat forward. River kayaks are flat bottomed so they manouver easily when carried along by the river current. Canoes are flat bottomed which is why they are a big pain for a single paddler, they zig zag with every stroke just like a river kayak. So I hope the designs you are looking at are v-bottom. Sorry if I'm just stating the obvious

[Ian McColgin]

You're looking at real class boats. If you already know that you love paddeling, go for it.

If you want to get into the water fast and tres-cost-effective, consider the "6 Hour Canoe." Even a guy of my weight (200#+) can have fun in one. Then, if you really love the sport, you can make a floating violin and still have a boat handy that you don't mind beating up a little.

After all, you make a really lovely bright finished thingy, you'll need to make a kind of sock for it so it doesn't pick up 60 knot dings traveling on your roof-rack . . .

G'luck

[Tom Dugan]

I built the CLC Sassafras 12, and I can report that it's as wet as some other boats mentioned here. But it is glued lapstrake plywood. I'm considering adding a light deck to mine with a nice little coaming. Shouldn't be too hard to do.

When I built mine, there were no plans, only kits. Now I understand that plans are found in this book
http://www.woodenboatstore.com/store/images/300526.JPG
found in the WoodenBoat Store.

With a 3mm deck, I'm guessing that a 12' Sassafras will top out just under 30 lbs. And it'll be everything you/ve spec'ed out.

-T

[holzbt]

Pete Culler's plans are available from Mystic Seaport.

[John Gearing]

I don't recall taking any water aboard while paddling that plywood Butternut around the Mystic docks. It may be that the paddle was long enough so that the angle I held it at was too low for water to get past the drip guards and get into the hull. Check Peter Spectre's article a few years back on a trip he made in one of Tom Hill's slightly longer double-paddle canoes. He had a great time in that deckless boat.

Take a look at Walt Simmons' boats here:

http://www.duck-trap.com/2002can.html

He notes that they can be built either traditional or glued lap plywood. And, he mentions that two oarsmen in a Matinicus double-ender could not outdistance a young girl in one of his 13 foot canoes! Assuming that's true, it says a lot about how easily driven this design is, and tends to confirm my own subjective opinion paddling a near-sister Culler design. I've corresponded with Mr. Simmons on a couple of occasions and he got right back to me, so if you have questions, I wouldn't hesitate to email him.
Cheers,
John

[garland reese]

All those mentioned are fine boats so far as I can tell. I have a 13 foot Wee II from Mac's plans and like it very much. His Wee Lassie sounds like it would fit the bill fine. Strip built, they are very light and could be too, if built in the Tom Hill fashion. One that has not been mentioned yet is Ted Moores' Rob Roy. That is one beautiful boat, especially if you were to deck it. the offsets for it are in the revised Canoecraft and full plans are available from Bear Mountain. I like Mr. Simmons' canoes also. He has a little plan for rigging them with some sails of very modest area.........fore and aft, jib headed sails of identical area......'guess that is getting way far away from your original thoughts. Sorry, I got carried away.....

Garland

[Don Olney]

Keith,

How about a Fiddlehead by Harry Bryan? Harry sells plans for a 10'6" or a 12' version. The 12 footer is probably the size for you. It weighs around 50lbs. Cedar lapstrake construction. Very beautiful and stable. I love this boat. Here's mine sitting high and dry:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid15/p3f943617017a6d60850c64eec9db87b0/fde6514e.jpg

[JimD]

Don Olney - what a sharp looking boat! Is it a one seater, I presume?

Jim d

[Ben Fuller]

Of course you could build the genuine article, a copy of the double paddle canoe that MacGregor used in his trip to the Shetlands. Plans are at Mystic Seaport. Does not have to be built of oak and mahogany and metal. It does have some shape subtly that none of the modern imitators have achieved like a little tumble home to make paddling easier. And they also have plans of Rushton's Vaux Jr. a demonstrated outstanding rought water boat. There are also some longer double paddle canoe plans.

[Don Olney]

Jim D, The 10'6" model is designed for one person. You can put a little kiddie facing you for a short paddle, but you wouldn't want to load it with more than 225lbs, paddler included. It has two watertight compartments. For larger folks and for carrying some gear, the 12' model is more appropriate. Harry also has a slinky looking 15' two-seater. I think he can adjust the plans to suit.

The bottom of my 10'6" Fiddlehead is 9/16" Northern White Cedar. The planking is 5/16" and the decking is 3/16". The stems, carlins, frames are Sitka Spruce. The coaming is Ash. Three strakes per side fastened with copper clench nails.

My boat is a little small for lengthy paddling--at least for me. I've found that I have to pull up on a sandy beach every hour or so to stretch my legs. I'd probably have to do the same in a Kayak though.

The Fiddlehead is a lot of fun for gunkholing. It is also fast if you want it to be. It is also very stable in powerboat chop in open water. In addition, its a pretty little design that never fails to draw compliments. My favorite was a guy who said "Nice boat. Is that fiberglass made to look like wood?"

[ 04-12-2002, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Don Olney ]

[Dale H]

Well, I've built two Wee Robs, so that's my vote. Here's a pic of the first one.(first picture I've posted, hope it works)

Dale http://www.alistego.com/weerob_stern.jpg

[Dale H]

Well, I've built two Wee Robs, so that's my vote. Here's a pic of the first one.(first picture I've posted, hope it works)

Dale http://www.alistego.com/weerob_stern.jpg

[DougWilde]

As an asside, those interested in Pete Culler's designs may want to borrow, via interlibrary loan,

Pete Culler's Boats: The complete design catalog

by John Burke
International Marine Publishing Company
copyright 1984
ISBN 0-87742-142-0

Every design represented by some of the drawings as well as photos of the boats complete or a'build.

Doug Wilde

[JimConlin]

I've got a Wee Lassie II. 13', 30#. Pound-for pound, I believe that strip composite produces a more abuse-tolerant boat than non-composite methods. With some care, a 11' strip composite boat could be built below 25 lbs.
I certainly appreciate the need for a deck sometimes. There are times, too, when you'd rather not have one, like when you want to bring a fishing rod, camera, kid, cooler or dog. I'd like to hear about solutions of canvas or other removeable decks for small double-paddle canoes.

[norske2]

roll a kayak and float..roll a canoe and sink

[Michel JAN]

Keith, You may also see the 16 double-paddle canoe by LF Herreschoff. Search "Dory-style canoe" on this forum.

[bob goeckel]

we built 2 millcreeks on the cheep(luan and polyester)5 years ago and they're still going strong. they are a bit heavy built like this but we really like them. they are very stable and have good leg room with the open cockpit. cost about $125.00 and 4 weeks time. plans WB#136/137

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Don, I was going to suggest the Fiddlehead also, but I didn't have a pic. I'm building Harry's Thistle. That's his 12' Fiddlehead modified for pedal powered fin drive. I just put some pics up in Building/repair. I hope to be putting on the first planks in a few days.
Steven

[Keith Wilson]

Thanks, everyone. Several comments: The Herreshoff kayak (or double-paddle canoe) is seems to be a nice boat but would be too heavy for one person to lift easily, even if built in light plywood. Harry Bryan's Fiddlehead is very nice indeed, although I'd probably use glued plywood, since it's what I'm used to. Any guesses at the weight of the short version if made from, say, 4mm okoume with dynel/epoxy/graphite on the bottom?

Two new possibilities: just links ‘cause I don’t remember how to post pictures:

Stillwater Boats’ “Sunrise”, made from very tortured 3mm plywood, see: http://www.stillwaterboats.com/sbsunrise.html

And a short strip-planked kayak from Guillemot which looks very pretty, although IMHO strip- planking is really tedious:
http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/Building/Guillemot/LittlAuk/LittleAuk11.jpeg

Leading contender right now is McCarthy’s Wee Lassie in 3mm or 4mm lapstrake plywood, mainly because I already have the plans.

And, with all respect, this boat is intended for someone who will never do more than the first half of the eskimo roll, which changes the aphorism to: Roll a canoe, go swimming; roll a kayak, hang there upside down looking comical until you figure out how to get out of the boat, then go swimming. (Actually, all of the kayak-style boats have large enough cockpit openings that getting out is automatic, so no problem.)

[capt jake]

Keith, the Wee Lassie is the 1st design that popped in my mind. Check out this link, as he has done a wonderful job in constructiong it. http://ross.secant.com/kayak/home.htm
Happy paddling smile.gif