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Ian McColgin
01-06-2010, 03:03 PM
Sea Shepherd knowingly takes risks and pushes to keep whaling vessels from doing what they see as their mission, but the behavior of Shonan Maru No. 2 in ramming Ady Gil is stunning. Regardless of “provocation” deliberate ramming and using water cannons to further imperil Ady Gill’s crew is a disgraceful and willful violation of law and a few miles past civil disobedience, more towards high seas violence.

UTubes all over. Check January 6, 2010 The Age (Australia).

TimH
01-06-2010, 03:05 PM
They (the Japanese) will be stopped. One way or another.

That tri was unbelievable expensive - 1.5 mil.



Sea Shepherd to weather the storm
ANDREW DARBY

January 7, 2010
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FOR 12 hours yesterday, Sea Shepherd had the largest fleet ever to engage Japanese whalers in the 20-year history of Antarctic protests. Then it lost a boat.
The loss of the fast trimaran Ady Gil in a collision still leaves the activists with two ships and 77 crew to pursue the fleet through a summer of hostilities in the frozen south.
Since Greenpeace's departure from Antarctic whaling protests, the field has been left to Sea Shepherd, led by Greenpeace founder Paul Watson.
In his first foray south in 2003, Captain Watson failed to find the whalers. But backed by a Hollywood funding base, he has gradually built up his resources.
First he converted a former North Sea fisheries vessel into the Steve Irwin, then yesterday he unveiled the Bob Barker - named for a famous US game show host and animal rights activist who donated $5 million to Sea Shepherd for the ship and a helicopter.
Ady Gil, a Hollywood producer, donated $1.5 million to buy the ill-fated trimaran.
Japan's Institute of Cetacean Research describes Sea Shepherd activists as eco-terrorists and their actions as felonious.
It has spent millions beefing up the defences of its fleet, which is guarded with water cannon, nets and spikes to prevent boarding by Sea Shepherd activists.
The Japanese Government has also tried to pressure Australia and other countries to act against Sea Shepherd.
For years Sea Shepherd ships displayed the names of whaling vessels, mainly Norwegian, that the group had sunk. After yesterday's mishap, now the whalers have a name too.

Phillip Allen
01-06-2010, 04:54 PM
Sea Shepherd knowingly takes risks and pushes to keep whaling vessels from doing what they see as their mission, but the behavior of Shonan Maru No. 2 in ramming Ady Gil is stunning. Regardless of “provocation” deliberate ramming and using water cannons to further imperil Ady Gill’s crew is a disgraceful and willful violation of law and a few miles past civil disobedience, more towards high seas violence.

UTubes all over. Check January 6, 2010 The Age (Australia).

Ian...I watched that video four of five times...the tri accelerated into the larger ship...the Japanese ship was in danger of missing the ugly boat so they hit the gas to prevent the miss...I'm not taking sides with whale killing but sea shep rammed the whaler...simple...period

I don't like mob-thinking

Captain Blight
01-06-2010, 04:59 PM
Ian...I watched that video four of five times...the tri accelerated into the larger ship...the Japanese ship was in danger of missing the ugly boat so they hit the gas to prevent the miss...I'm not taking sides with whale killing but sea shep rammed the whaler...simple...period

I don't like mob-thinkingI don't either, but you ought not contradict yourslef like this.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
01-06-2010, 05:01 PM
Sea Shepherd knowingly takes risks and pushes to keep whaling vessels from doing what they see as their mission, but the behavior of Shonan Maru No. 2 in ramming Ady Gil is stunning. Regardless of “provocation” deliberate ramming and using water cannons to further imperil Ady Gill’s crew is a disgraceful and willful violation of law and a few miles past civil disobedience, more towards high seas violence.

UTubes all over. Check January 6, 2010 The Age (Australia).

What a very quaint view - one could just as easily, and with good video evidence, point out that the Ady Gil deliberately rammed the Japanese whaler.

Paul Pless
01-06-2010, 05:05 PM
Regardless of “provocation” deliberate ramming and using water cannons to further imperil Ady Gill’s crew is a disgraceful and willful violation of law and a few miles past civil disobedience, more towards high seas violence.> :rolleyes:

blinded by ideology

MKane
01-06-2010, 05:14 PM
Ian,

Watch the video again. The smaller boat clearly accelerates to ram the larger boat.

MK

Ian McColgin
01-06-2010, 05:18 PM
I encourage folk to participate in the other thread as it was started first. I looked at three different UTubes. One makes it appear that Shonan Maru No.2 turned into the tri. One taken from above shows radical acceleration after impact of the tri's port hull with turbulence on the sterns that might be simply Ady Gil being dragged and might be the motors accelerating in an attempt to shere off or an attempt to simply accelerate. I did not see a video of Ady Gil moving ahead of Shonan before what appears to be impact.

I also saw the water cannon spraying not just prior to impact by aggressivly to prevent Ady Gil's crew from protecting themselves after impact.

Throughout Shonan was the overtaking vessel changing it's course to strike while Ady Gil held her course. Were this an innocent accident rather than a collision between belligerants, Ady would have been at least partly responsible for failure to take reasonable evasive action.

TimH
01-06-2010, 05:21 PM
Better to sit back and do nothing. That always works.

Paul Pless
01-06-2010, 05:33 PM
Sea Shep is nothing more than an ultra violent, vigilante, eco-terrorist group. nothing more??? you can add 'dorks' to the list of things that they are

TimH
01-06-2010, 05:59 PM
Not once did Mr. Okada attempt to justify Japanese whaling operations as “scientific research.” He has made it very clear that this is a commercial operation and the objective is to kill whales for consumption and for profit. He even denied that Fin and Humpback whales are endangered despite international recognition that they are classified as endangered.
“This puts an entire new slant on our campaign this year,” Captain Paul Watson said from on board the Sea Shepherd ship Steve Irwin in the Southern Ocean. “Japanese whalers are poachers and now even their Foreign Minister has admitted that this is a poaching operation. The Japanese government has given the whalers a permit to kill up to 935 protected Minke whales and 50 endangered Fin and 50 endangered Humpbacks.”
“These whalers are poachers. They are criminals and they know it. They are also violating the Antarctic Treaty by commercially exploiting Antarctic waters and they are operating in contempt of the Australian Federal Court for continuing to kill whales in the Australian Antarctic Territory,” Captain Watson continued.

Link (http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-media/news-091211-1.html)

WX
01-06-2010, 06:05 PM
if they want whales maybe we could send a couple of Collins class subs down there.

Phillip Allen
01-06-2010, 06:15 PM
amazing what idology will do to a guys vision

I'll see if I can see the other videos...u tube?

Phillip Allen
01-06-2010, 06:21 PM
found this one so far...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDsZcLVXyn8&feature=related

I'll keep looking

Phillip Allen
01-06-2010, 06:25 PM
nuther un...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clI0kmTWKYs&feature=fvw

WX
01-06-2010, 06:30 PM
A previous incident involving Greenpeace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjlCGR_ggbw&feature=related

Phillip Allen
01-06-2010, 06:42 PM
I'll look at your green peace bit...does it make the attacks by sea shepard okay?

okay...huge ship out manuvered little boat...is that what they were saying

Phillip Allen
01-06-2010, 06:45 PM
BTW I just remembered someone getting after me or someone else saying how stupid it was to harass a policeman...somehow this seems a reversal...the big guy (ship/cop with gun) is attacked and we find it okay in one case and not okay in another...

WX
01-06-2010, 06:55 PM
It's a bit like the Cold War days when US and Soviet aircraft use to play chicken with each other.

Paul Pless
01-06-2010, 07:04 PM
It's a bit like the Cold War days when US and Soviet aircraft use to play chicken with each other.uhh yeah but not really

ChaseKenyon
01-06-2010, 11:41 PM
It's a bit like the Cold War days when US and Soviet aircraft use to play chicken with each other.

Not just in the Air WX

you should have been around to witness some of the stuff at sea and on the ground in in places like the Baltic the Mediterrainean, the Indian Ocean and other places that took place.

TimH
01-06-2010, 11:45 PM
I'll look at your green peace bit...does it make the attacks by sea shepard okay?

okay...huge ship out manuvered little boat...is that what they were saying

The tri was drifting. Look at it again. It was stationary and the Japanese Whaler drastically altered course and rammed it.
The last second effort on the tri to get out of the way failed.

Do you honestly believe they meant to wreck their brand new 2 million dollar boat? I think not.

Chris-on-the-Boat
01-06-2010, 11:53 PM
Sea Shepards are attention whores with video cameras pointed at them 24/7. A collision to them is profit, embarassment to the Jap whalers. Get real. Sea Shepards give true environmentalists a bad name, a bunch of trust fund babies looking for publicity. Right or wrong, the Japs are legal to our government. And if the sea shepards tried to force a collision with me while I was legally fishing, screw 'em. And may I take the opportronity to say screw Bob Barker, all the historically important wood boats you could have saved in this world, and you gave these clowns five million dollars? I'll never watch your reruns again.

And to put all of this in perspective, God Help Paladin, he is in our prayers...

TimH
01-07-2010, 12:03 AM
They arent attention whores. Its the cause. Publicity is the best thing they could bring to the cause. If you think its about each or any of them personally you dont understand people very well.

riptide
01-07-2010, 12:08 AM
Right or wrong, the Japs are legal to our government. And if the sea shepards tried to force a collision with me while I was legally fishing, screw 'em. And may I take the opportronity to say screw Bob Barker, all the historically important wood boats you could have saved in this world, and you gave these clowns five million dollars?

Horse****. The Japanese were not legally fishing. They're poachers who are hunting an endangered species to extinction and they need to be stopped. And I'm sorry, but saving endangered whales is WAY more important than saving historic wooden boats. We can build more boats. We can't build more whales. Thank god for Bob Barker and others like him.

TimH
01-07-2010, 12:14 AM
When I was a kid I had a subscription to National Geographic magazine. Sometimes they would come with these flexible black pages that were actually records that would play on a turn table.
I remember an issue that had recordings of humpback whale songs. I can remember listening to them as I was falling asleep and wondering what they were saying to each other.

Chip-skiff
01-07-2010, 12:26 AM
I must be missing something: what's the link to the collision with the trimaran?

I watched several other clips, but haven't seen that.

Thanks—

TimH
01-07-2010, 12:40 AM
check the other thread. Too bad Scot couldnt jon the two.

Chris-on-the-Boat
01-07-2010, 12:54 AM
Nothing against whales. I've fallen asleep listening to them thousands of nights, wouldn't hurt one myself, but get real . Tim H., I dealt with these people personally during the Makah whale hunt lawsuits in Seattle during the 1990's, and I give you my word, they are attention seeking trust fund babies. Perhaps there are a few truly altruistic ones, but the vast majority I dealt with thought any 'cause' was much better than work as long as Daddy's cheques kept rolling in...and that was before thay had their own TV show. So forgive me for being skeptical.

And Riptide - as far as I know, the Japs are doing legal fishing. I'll be happy to support your argument if you can show me where they are not complying with the laws of my country. Seriously. I have no dog in the fight here, I have a 70+ year old wood salmon fishing boat, no whales, but I'm not convinced that that these aren't a bunch of trust fund baby attention whores. Give me some facts I can dig my teeth in to, I'll support you wholeheartedly.

TimH
01-07-2010, 01:19 AM
as far as I know, the Japs are doing legal fishing. I'll be happy to support your argument if you can show me where they are not complying with the laws of my country.

If its legal why are they being sued?

The US is trying to be diplomatic. As we have seen from history the Japanese do what they want. They dont care what the US says.

From 2007:

TOKYO — Japan is dropping its plan to kill humpback whales in the seas off Antarctica, the country's top government spokesman said Friday.
Japan decided to suspend humpback hunts at the request of the United States, which is currently chair of the International Whaling Commission, according to Chief Cabinet Secretary Nobutaka Machimura.
"The government has decided to suspend hunts of humpback whales while talks to normalize IWC is taking place," Machimura said. "But there will no changes to our stance on our research whaling itself." link (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317773,00.html)

They have 50 humpbacks on their current list.

LeeG
01-07-2010, 07:49 AM
my $.02 is that there's a place for protest but it should be done on land and the million dollar or so budget Greenpeace has should go to a cadre of professional lobbyiests/advertisers working to undermine the demand.

TimH
01-07-2010, 11:07 AM
I must be missing something: what's the link to the collision with the trimaran?

I watched several other clips, but haven't seen that.

Thanks—

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bbuq0YEIPNU&feature=player_embedded

Phillip Allen
01-07-2010, 11:20 AM
The tri was drifting. Look at it again. It was stationary and the Japanese Whaler drastically altered course and rammed it.
The last second effort on the tri to get out of the way failed.

Do you honestly believe they meant to wreck their brand new 2 million dollar boat? I think not.

I'll tell you what...you look again and you'll find that you have lied to yourself...small boat accelerates into ship, raising small roostertails from it's THREE engines (ask me how I know there are three engines)

so much for your credibility Tim... :(

LeeG
01-07-2010, 12:23 PM
I'll tell you what...you look again and you'll find that you have lied to yourself...small boat accelerates into ship, raising small roostertails from it's THREE engines (ask me how I know there are three engines)

so much for your credibility Tim... :(

Phillip, boats only maneuver with forward speed unless they have vectoring thrust. So in order for the trimaran to maneuver out of the way they have to go forward before they can move laterally. Either the trimaran reverses, and assume it'll have immediate steerage in reverse or they go forward. I seriously doubt the trimaran has the option of going sideways from a standstill.
The larger ship turned into the trimaran then veered away during the collision. In the clip above you can see the Japanese ship tilting away from the trimaran as they turn towards it then turn away during the collision. The Japanese ship chose to collide but we don't have the benefit of prior actions to see if this is end of a series of movements with the trimaran brushing the edge of a collision course, which is my guess they did.

Phillip Allen
01-07-2010, 12:35 PM
Phillip, boats only maneuver with forward speed unless they have vectoring thrust. So in order for the trimaran to maneuver out of the way they have to go forward before they can move laterally. Either the trimaran reverses, and assume it'll have immediate steerage in reverse or they go forward. I seriously doubt the trimaran has the option of going sideways from a standstill.
The larger ship turned into the trimaran then veered away during the collision. In the clip above you can see the Japanese ship tilting away from the trimaran as they turn towards it then turn away during the collision. The Japanese ship chose to collide but we don't have the benefit of prior actions to see is this is end of a series of movements with the trimaran brushing the edge of a collision course, which is my guess they did.

wrong...that ugly boat has reverse...they reversed away from the stern of the ship quite rapidly after they hit the ship...if you can't see that then you need instrcution of some sort

come off it...I've handled small boats a lot...no one even talked about going sideways...the ugly boat accelerated into the path of the ship...it is ludicrus to deny that...if you insist on continuing such a lie then I can't think what to do to turn you suddenly honest so I give up

to claim that the damage indicates no intent to contact the ship is asking others to believe nothing ever goes wrong with sea shelpard's plans...it's like saying a bandit didn't comit a crime because he didn't plan on being caught

TimH
01-07-2010, 12:49 PM
In the beginning of the second film you are clearly looking at the starboard side of the whaler. It changes course toward the tri and then you see the port side of its hull. After the collision it turns away and you see the starboard side again.
The tri was stationary and drifting until the last second as they tried to take evasive action. The Japanese boat looks like it went a few hundred yards off of its original course to "enable the tri to ram them" as Phillip thinks.

Phillip Allen
01-07-2010, 12:58 PM
In the beginning of the second film you are clearly looking at the starboard side of the whaler. It changes course toward the tri and then you see the port side of its hull. After the collision it turns away and you see the starboard side again.
The tri was stationary and drifting until the last second as they tried to take evasive action. The Japanese boat looks like it went a few hundred yards off of its original course to "enable the tri to ram them" as Phillip thinks.

I tried to find several different shots...If I have missed this one would you please give me a link to review?

LeeG
01-07-2010, 01:29 PM
I tried to find several different shots...If I have missed this one would you please give me a link to review?

Phillip. turn the sound down and look at this clip at 0-3seconds. You can see a bit of the starboard side of the ship. Then look at what happens at 7 seconds. You can clearly see the ship turn hard towards the tri as it leans to port. The ship obviously has moved to a collision course. The tris forward movement occurs at 11seconds and collision around 15 with the ships hard movement away to port and the tris engines slammed in reverse or impact driving it back.

I doubt the tris captain went forward for a suicide mission as much as he thought it was a qucker way to maneuver out or reduce damage than backing up and driving the stern down on impact.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bbuq0YEIPNU&feature=player_embedded

Phillip Allen
01-07-2010, 01:45 PM
well, I hadn't seen that one...the ship turns hard to port at the time of the collision (any turn to starboard isn't obvious though...really bouncy seas)...need the first part of the film...was it snipped for some reason I wonder?...at about 14 sec in serious propwash from ugly boat becomes visable...it is possible the idiot in the ugly boat thought he could squirt ahead and across the ships bow...incompetence does matter I guess...playing chicken and he screwed up so it MUST not be ugly boat's fault cause the outcome wasn't what he wanted...boo hoo

Phillip Allen
01-07-2010, 01:53 PM
thinking ahead to a court of inquiry, does that ship's engine order telegraph have it's positions and that of the wheel recorded?

Keith Wilson
01-07-2010, 01:54 PM
It might be helpful to separate out the several different questions which are getting mixed together.
1. Whether or not whaling is a good idea.
2. If it's not (and I think most people here agree on that) what should be done to stop it?
3. The wisdom (or lack therof) of Sea Shepherd's tactics in general.
4. This specific collision; what happened, whose fault?

sdowney717
01-07-2010, 01:58 PM
A snag cable being towed to disable the props on the big ship?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9DK2jv8-J6s&feature=related


In other videos, it shows the Ady towing a snag cable and net behind it before cutting in front of the Shonan. They are also seen trying to blind the Shonan with a green laser. It would seem the Shonan was justified in making a sharp right to attempt to get in behind the Ady to avoid a calculated attempt to damage its propeller. With piracy concerns (Somalia), who's to say these weren't copy cats intent on disabling the Shonan, boarding, and kidnapping the crew for ransom.

TimH
01-07-2010, 02:01 PM
"With piracy concerns (Somalia), who's to say these weren't copy cats intent on disabling the Shonan, boarding, and kidnapping the crew for ransom. "

dumbest thing I have read all day :)

sdowney717
01-07-2010, 02:06 PM
acid filled projectiles??
http://www.riverdavesplace.com/forums/showthread.php?p=391460

The statement accused the activists of shining a laser device at the Nisshin Maru crew and launching acid-filled projectiles, one of which landed on the vessel's deck.

and here



Also the Ady has been out cutting in front of the whaling vessels laying lines or cables to snag and entangle the whaler's props and rudders, To me this is basically equal to a terrorist act, whaling is not illegal, and while i don't support it, it doesn't mean i can go out and endanger peoples lives and try to destroy their vessels. The whaler is basically practicing self defense. Imagine if middle eastern terrorists did this **** to tankers or cargo ships.....

LeeG
01-07-2010, 02:21 PM
buteric acid, stinky stuff. My $.02 is that the Ady captain raised the stakes and lost. If they have a record of trailing cables then getting behind the Ady makes sense. So did the Ady sink or was it collected by the Sea Shepherd?

LeeG
01-07-2010, 02:25 PM
"With piracy concerns (Somalia), who's to say these weren't copy cats intent on disabling the Shonan, boarding, and kidnapping the crew for ransom. "

dumbest thing I have read all day :)

youtube comments are now sources of news

sdowney717
01-07-2010, 02:34 PM
youtube comments are now sources of news it is in their report, so whose report will you believe?
http://www.theage.com.au/environment/whale-watch/japanese-ship-destroys-whale-protest-boat--ady-gil-20100106-ltp4.html
http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201001/r495041_2586202.asx

LeeG
01-07-2010, 02:38 PM
a copy cat one-off carbon fiber pirate boat?

TimH
01-07-2010, 02:54 PM
Somali pirates:

http://www.seashepherd.org/images/stories/get-involved/crew_benefits_make_good_friends_large.jpg

J P
01-07-2010, 03:20 PM
It might be helpful to separate out the several different questions which are getting mixed together.
1. Whether or not whaling is a good idea.
2. If it's not (and I think most people here agree on that) what should be done to stop it?
3. The wisdom (or lack therof) of Sea Shepherd's tactics in general.
4. This specific collision; what happened, whose fault?


Stop whaling? We can't even get united enough to have one thread going on a subject here. ;)