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Sailing reenactor
01-06-2010, 10:37 AM
Alright! As covered in the "help with lofting" thread I am building a scale model to "curlew" in "How to build small boats" by Edwin Monk. I have the frames assembled and the transom and stem cut out. I hope to carve the bevel into the stem this evening. I do have one question regarding this though. In the book the instructions on the stem are very brief and unclear. There is a piece of wood in the diagrams labeled stem face, which is separate from the stem. However, the stem itself has a bevel in it that the planking is supposed to be attached to. My question then is, does the stem face go on AFTER the planking or before?

Thanks

Dave

switters
01-06-2010, 10:43 AM
I don't have monks book, but in other designs with planking the stem face is installed after the planking. It is basically a trim piece and will cover the end grains of the planks.

Thorne
01-06-2010, 11:46 AM
I think it is often called a dory stem or false stem...

Sailing reenactor
01-06-2010, 01:31 PM
That's what I thought too! The plans are consolodated I suppose, so the diagram shows the boat without planking and shows the stem face in that diagram! I reckon they are just trying to save space by showing the shell of the boat and the stem face. Otherwise, there would have to have been a whole other diagram!

Thanks......picts tonight!

Dave

Sailing reenactor
01-06-2010, 05:02 PM
Alright! I have all of the frames cut, sanded, and glued together. I also have the stem cut and shaped. (The entire boat is glued together because the pieces are too small to nail. I'm using gorrila glue as it is easily obtained, reasonably strong, and water tight.)
The problem I am having now is set up, or erecting. How in heaven's name are you supposed to erect something this small? I can't just nail temporary cross bands to frames to put on the erecting boards. I tried cutting a board that is the profile shape of the rabbet. Then I was going to lay each of my frames in their respective stations, and use electrition staples to hold them in place. (Those staples will fit around the frame boards, and just hold them tight.) The problem is I can't plank any of the bottom like this, and the board is a little off in the measurements. (It's about a 1/16" off at the very bottom of the boat which represents a half inch in my model.)
I'm thinking about using two small piece of 3/8" round stock steel as set up boards and tying the fool out the whole thing to hold it in place! (With crochete cotten) YES! That's my brilliant plan.

HELP! :o

Dave

Philip Maynard
01-06-2010, 06:10 PM
Hi Dave, I have built the full size curlew, - what switters said. The stem is beveled and then the outer stem is a cap (also beveled) to cover the end grain. I have also built models but not with finished interiors and not of the curlew. I used wood dowels and then stacked up my frames and drilled holes through the stack and then spread out the frames like a shish-ka-bob, but I was always just interested in the outside planking. Maybe some variation on that where the building frame was like a comb that was detachable from the permanent frames. Regular model makers are probably more helpful. Phil

Sailing reenactor
01-07-2010, 10:42 AM
Well, the dowel idea sounds good, but, unless I'm not fully understanding, it is not possible with this boat. See, none of the frames line up so a dowel that would run through number 6 would completely miss number 1, 2, 3, and 9. (there is curvature to the bottom of the boat as well as to the sides. see "help with lofting" in the designs/plans section)

I had wanted to staple them down but I'm afraid I'll end up tearing stuff up getting the staples out. I'm thinking about cutting a board to the profile of the rabbet line again, but this time doing it where I can erect upside-down with the board I cut running inside the boat. I will then tie each frame, in place, with some string and run several ribbands to hold the frames in place. (also attached with string.) The problem would be, that the centerboard would need to be placed where that board would be. It seems like every idea I have, has something wrong with it. The best option so far seems to be the steel erecting "boards" and tying the frames to it. But wait....brain storm.....I could tie them in place to the board I already have (it runs on the bottom of the boat) And plank everything but the very bottom......give me some time to think of something wrong with that......there has got to be SOMETHING flawwed in it. (Murphy's law you see)

Still needing HELP! :o :)

Suggestions???

Dave

P.S. picts are forthcoming......computer is running slow.

Sailing reenactor
01-07-2010, 10:48 AM
Cha-Ching.......PICTURES

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03531.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03535.jpg

Cutting the frames!

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03542.jpg

The bottom of the frames.....note that numbers four and five are cut to allow for centerboard which runs from three to six, through four and five.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03564.jpg

The frames roughly laid out.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03563.jpg

Frames again.....note they do line up like the body plan; they just aren't laid out perfectly. Mom said it looks like the dinosaur skeletons in museums.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03567.jpg

At long last I figured out the stem. Here I am carving the front of the stem. I figured carving is more accurate than sanding.

Carving gave me a wild, fleeting thought that is completely crazy and impracticle. (sounds like me doesn't it?) Wouldn't it be awsome if I put a bowspit on the boat, and carved a figure head to place under it? (Yes I know....I'm the only person in the WORLD that wants to put a figurehead on a 15' boat.) First thought to this was trailering! Can't trailer something with a figure head! Then I thought, why not? If I put a figure head on the front, then instead of a v-notch to receive the bow, I could forge a large semi-oval to cradle the figure head, with the winch mounted behind it. (I say large; it would probably be 6-8 inches wide. I will make my own trailer custom for the boat. I can do so much cheeper than purchasing and rigging a trailer.) I can make my own padding to line the cradle.
Just an idea! I'm not a super good carver so I don't know if I could carve a good figure head.....jus thought it would look really neat!

Dave

SMARTINSEN
01-07-2010, 06:28 PM
GO DAVE!!!

Looks GREAT.

Sailing reenactor
01-07-2010, 06:34 PM
Ok that wasn't enough! That's great you go! C'mon! :D THAT was a cheesy post....thread rule......post has to be over 50 words! :D

Naw I'm just playing! Haven't got any done today! Updates later!

Dave

johnw
01-07-2010, 06:56 PM
Aren't you going to build a strongback to set up the frames on?

http://books.google.com/books?id=VnoW5YpDN7sC&pg=PA23&lpg=PA23&dq=boatbuilding+strongback&source=bl&ots=dTsDgF86Fc&sig=pBncLcnTNTcuaBWs2teTzr-61qo&hl=en&ei=InVGS5vVKY-sswPLpIC2Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCMQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=boatbuilding%20strongback&f=false

BillyBudd
01-08-2010, 03:54 PM
I agree with Johhny. Build a model as if building a full sized boat. No wiggles allowed, everything tightly in place. A strongback is a necessary part of the adventure so that all parts are aligned; better than the carpet by a long shot. Don't forget to figure out how to get a planked model off the strongback when that time comes.

Your Mom must be a saint. I've never ever been able to run a jigsaw in the house, on the carpet.

Sailing reenactor
01-08-2010, 05:32 PM
LOL well since we moved a year and a half ago we haven't been able to get the shop built so it was outside in the teens or inside. I'm on a rubbermaid box on top of newspaper with a stainless steel pan under the saw as well. And there is always a vacum cleaner!

Strongback huh!? Well I'll look over that link and see if my books have anything about it, to see if I can figure it out. I do intend for this to be "as-near-as-possible" accurate, so I do want to take the time to do it right. The strongback isn't mentioned in the book I'm working out of; (at least not in the erecting section) a different type of set up being prescribed.

I'm looking into that further tonight!
Dave

switters
01-08-2010, 05:52 PM
carve a figure head, who cares what you have on front of your boat.

I epoxied a 2" tall plastic Gumby to the front of my first one. some neighbor kid got it off though.

Sailing reenactor
01-08-2010, 11:02 PM
Thank you for the encouragement.....that's sorta my personality anyway.

Well, I'm working on loading some pictures of what I came up with as an erecting platform. When I erect the full size boat, I will of course make the regular erecting frame, but, even though I want this model to be very close, I don't have the supplies at hand to rig up a regular frame. (The nearest lumber supply that has small wood for model and finish work is 30 minutes away and we only go there once every month or two)

I'll just wait and let the picts describe what I am doing!

Dave

Sailing reenactor
01-08-2010, 11:45 PM
You all go ahead and get ready to pumble me!

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03610.jpg

Fore to aft! Here are the frames set up on the board I cut. The frames here are roughly in position. Notice I put crossbands on #'s 3 and 6. These are required to support the centerboard housing. (I think number three will be replaced by the mast partner.)

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03615.jpg

Here are all the frames and the centerboard housing in place. (except frames 4 & 5. Still working on those) Notice the center line running from the stem to the transom.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03614.jpg

My embarrasing method of attachment. Crochete Cotten! Actually it is surprisingly stiff and I do think will serve the purpose quite well.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03612.jpg

Frame number four is shown on the starboard side. (looking aft) I have to make a rig to hold these in place while the glue sets. They are run into the centerboard cheek pieces.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03611.jpg

A better view of the centerboard housing minus the cheek pieces which still have to be cut.

It all seems to be coming together well. The frames are firmly attached in their stations. The last photos where they are tied down shows them in their exact positions. I will just have to level them correctly before planking. Their center marks are lined up in order though, and they are spaced apart as prescribed by my lofting sketches.

What remains are the cheek pieces, attaching frames 4 & 5, and then level it all left to right.
Then I can attach some temporary pieces (battens maybe?) to hold them, and begin planking.

Thoughts???

Dave

P.S. Critisism???:o

Philip Maynard
01-09-2010, 10:08 AM
I think it's fabulous that you are doing this, I've never let the lack of an adequate shop, or specific knowledge of what I'm trying to do at that particular moment stop me from going ahead. I figured you would come up with something -which you have and it looks like it will work better for you than what I did, which was trying to work out planking shapes as opposed to making a presentable finished model in the normal sense. I'm looking forward to seeing your finished product. I have the only full sized curlew that I know of, there is another builder who has been working on one for a number of years in the midwest and he is probably about at the halfway point by now.
FYI here is an example of the dowel method I mentioned. Phil

http://www.pmaynard.lunarpages.com/index_files/details/ms-stem_keel_detail-with%20title.jpg

Sailing reenactor
01-09-2010, 10:52 AM
Oh ok I see what you are saying!

Those are the temporary frames and then the permanent frames go in later. (don't know why I didn't realize that)

Well, I'm going to continue with the rig that I have but if that fails perhaps I'll pick up a little more wood and try that!

Thanks for the photo!

Dave

Philip Maynard
01-09-2010, 11:07 PM
Dave, Yes I would stick with what you have, you could put on your upper and bilge planks, then cut it off your keel form and then plank the bottom. It probably will not move much once the side and bilge planks are on it.

donald branscom
01-10-2010, 12:10 AM
If possible you need a small table sander/beltsander combo unit and you can sand those frame instead of carving them. It will save your hands tto.

Sailing reenactor
01-10-2010, 10:36 PM
Hey so, I haven't gotten to planking still because I have been having problems getting frames 4 & 5 in line. They just didn't go in place! (Those are the centerboard frames)

I tried all kind of stuff. Finally I cut those frames apart and reglued them to make sure they were perfect to my lofting drawing. They now are, but they still wouldn't fit. Then I took #'s 6 and 3 off my keel shape to inspect them. 6 was just as close as the rest but after inspecting # 3, I found that it is WAYYYYYYYYYYY off. I have no idea how it got off but it is. I cut out the frames in paper and traced thm. Anyway, I have to re-cut, reglue, and then reattach the frames, glue the centerboard to numbers 6 and 3, and then install stations 4 and 5.
I'm glad I'm making these mistakes on 1/8 scale to (HOPEFULLY) not make the same in full scale.

Updates to follow.

Dave

Sailing reenactor
01-10-2010, 10:39 PM
Oh by the way...
I do have a belt sander that I am using to smooth the frames after I cut them with scroll saw.
I only use the carving tools on spots that I can't get with the sander. Our sander is kinda big and clumsy on small stuff.

Dave

johnw
01-11-2010, 02:10 PM
I looked at Monk's book last night, and the part about erecting the frames bottom up is basically about using a strongback. I don't recall if he calls it that.

Sailing reenactor
01-11-2010, 03:25 PM
No I don't think he does call it that, but yes I did notice that it is similar to what you posted. That's what I will do when I do full scale.

Not working today. I have got a cold, I am cold, and general irritable. Not a good time to work on a boat. :D

Today is craft fair schedual research day.....

Dave

Sailing reenactor
01-12-2010, 09:37 PM
Ok back on it today......all I got done was fixing frame number 3. I didn't have enough bass wood to cut out the bottom of the frame so I used some poplar I had lying around. It seems to work well. I'm going to let the glue set up a bit longer and then I'll glue it to the centerboard housing. Hopefully, I'll finally get numbers 3 & 4 glued to the centerboard housing, tomorrow.

Since I had the old frame number three that was useless, I decided to test the breaking point of the tiny pieces of wood. When cutting I tried to keep it all with the grain to maximize strength. (After 5 years of testing wooden swords, I've learned to cut with the grain just as close as possible.:D) I was able to break it with my fingers, but I had to use MUCH more pressure than the planking will be putting on these pieces of wood. I am glad because I was having my doubts as to wether or not it wouldn't all crumble when I bent the planking to the hull shape.

Dave

Sailing reenactor
01-14-2010, 05:40 PM
PLANKING! Ye-haw! I made it to planking!

I just got the first piece on each side. The plans say to start on the very bottom of the boat. However, as can be seen in previous photos, the rig I am using makes this impossible. After much thought I decided that it would be next to impossible to set the boat on a rig upside down. (I do intend to use regular "stongback" method with the full size boat; but in the absence of clamps, screw, and nails, it was simply impossible to do it on the model.)
So, I started with the top plank on both sides.
Pictures are in order. Before I continue planking I have to drill the pin hole that holds the center board in place.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03650.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03651.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03652.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03653.jpg

Looking good I think, but it will need some sanding/carving to get everything right on.

Thoughts???

Dave

johnw
01-14-2010, 09:14 PM
Now it's time to start thinking about how you'll personalize the design. I think the seats are too low to be comfortable, so you could make the side decks wider so you can sit on those. It wil also simplify the model.

Measure how high above the floorboards the seats are on the plan, and measure how high a chair is. You'll see what I mean. The Snipe, designed about the same time, was designed with seats, but I've never seen one with them.

Sailing reenactor
01-14-2010, 10:23 PM
Ok thats a good idea! I haven't really noticed much about the seats on the plans but that will be something I will definately take into consideration.

I managed to get the second plank on both sides this evening.
I have noticed a problem which is slightly visible in the pictures. The "starboard" side (port side of photo) is more straight than the other side. The left side of the boat (looking foreward) has more of a curve. I checked this with my center marks on the frames and it does indeed curve more on the left side than the right. It gets worse as I add planks, I think. (result of improper "strongback" to hold the frames more rigidly in place.:mad:)
I think after the glue sets up on these planks (tomorrow) I will take the model off of the form and put some planks on the bottom, trying at the same time to straighten it out some.

Here is the second plank going on. The edges of the planks are beveled where they fit together as per the instructions. A solid beam of glue and a cotten string is placed in the seam. As the glue is supposed to be 100% water proof I am hoping that the end result will be a 100% water proof hull. :)

Picts!

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/DSC03656.jpg

Got to love what I use for clamps ehhh!

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/DSC03654.jpg

That's a bad shot but shows the underside. Hopefully, I'll get that form off tomorrow!

More thoughts!!!

Dave

johnw
01-15-2010, 01:26 PM
Sounds like your frames shifted a little, possibly when you put the first plank on. That's why people use strongbacks.

Sailing reenactor
01-15-2010, 04:08 PM
Yes I suppose! Actually I don't think the frames shifted left to right but they aren't perfectly square. They are more crooked, I think. Good thing the seats cover those up! LOL! It's not too bad after all though. I am putting the bottom planks on now I'm not having to tweek them much to get them to fit along the very bottom of the boat.

more pics later!

Dave

Svensk
01-16-2010, 12:57 PM
Ok thats a good idea! I haven't really noticed much about the seats on the plans but that will be something I will definately take into consideration.

I managed to get the second plank on both sides this evening.
I have noticed a problem which is slightly visible in the pictures. The "starboard" side (port side of photo) is more straight than the other side. The left side of the boat (looking foreward) has more of a curve. I checked this with my center marks on the frames and it does indeed curve more on the left side than the right. It gets worse as I add planks, I think. (result of improper "strongback" to hold the frames more rigidly in place.:mad:)
I think after the glue sets up on these planks (tomorrow) I will take the model off of the form and put some planks on the bottom, trying at the same time to straighten it out some.

Here is the second plank going on. The edges of the planks are beveled where they fit together as per the instructions. A solid beam of glue and a cotten string is placed in the seam. As the glue is supposed to be 100% water proof I am hoping that the end result will be a 100% water proof hull. :)

Picts!

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/DSC03656.jpg

Got to love what I use for clamps ehhh!

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/DSC03654.jpg

That's a bad shot but shows the underside. Hopefully, I'll get that form off tomorrow!

More thoughts!!!

Dave
"Dave, what does your momma think about you using her clamps from the new dryer? ;) No, all kidding aside, I think you will some day be a very good boat builder. God's speed to you."

donald branscom
01-16-2010, 01:13 PM
Many model makers use clothes pins. Lets hope they keep making clothes pins.
The last ones I saw in a store were plastic crap.
By the way ....you need to get those two planks on the bow squared up some how.

Sailing reenactor
01-16-2010, 10:10 PM
Yea the two top plans were sort of out of kilter. See I can't use a clothes pin on the boaw or transom so it's a pain to get em in place before the glue starts to set. The starboard top plank was somewhat higher so I took my carving tool this evening and worked along the edge a good ways back and blended it in. (That's what we rough construction guys do....mess it up and blend it in! :rolleyes:LOL)

I have the first two bottom planks on now. I haven't gotten any further because we've been really busy around here working on a wood stove.

Yesterday just wasn't my day anyway. I woke up sore from working in strange positions inside the stove, I fell inbetween two rafters from the second story in our barn into the saw dust pile, I was helping dad weld some stuff and some slag hit my finger and burnt a hole in it, and then as I was carving some excess glue I slipped and rammed the tool right into the side of my finger. That felt good! Actually it didn't hurt too much but it bled like crazy! I've read that stabs are less painfull than cuts and I suppose that is true.
Anyway, I got the excess glue off tonight but that's it. I did a pretty crumby job on th bottom planks; they aren't even! :( One of them curves up to the stem and the other is staight. I don't know which one is right, but the one that is straight along the edge is going to be vastly easier to plank next to. The other side I have to figure out the curve. :(

Updates later!

Dave

Sailing reenactor
01-18-2010, 10:15 PM
I know you guys that do this all the time must get a big kick out of the mistakes we new guys make! That or you just get utterly sick of them! LOL Or both! Regardless,

In building this model, I came to the part where you are supposed to put a batten on the first nuckle! (Refer to body plan photo. closest corner to the bottom of the boat is the first knuckle) I thought this was simply to help to water proof that sharp corner in the profile of the boat. Since I'm using a bunch of water proof glue and this is a model, I decided that the batten board there would not be a necessary. (Kind of like the rough construction mentality of "It's not like it's a kitchen cabinet."LOL) Anyway, I left the batten off. Then I got to planking the bottom of the boat and I was trying to figure out how in the world I was going to fit all of those planks onto the stem. I looked back over my books, but couldn't figure it out. Then it hit me! "Oh dumbo! The batten; you run them into the batten! So I added the battens!

Photo run!

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03520.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03709.jpg
Praise the Lord for clothes pin clamps! :D

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03708.jpg

And yes I do realize that the two bottem planks are insanely different. Learn the hard way I guess! I'm going to have to compensate on the other bottem planks!

Thoughts???

Dave

johnw
01-19-2010, 01:45 PM
If the boat were lapstrake, the planks would need to be near identical for the boat to look right. With the construction you are using, what you need is for the chines to look near identical. The flat surfaces will look flat regardless. It would look pretty funky if you were doing batten seam construction, but I assume you are relying on the glue to keep the hull watertight.

donald branscom
01-19-2010, 04:50 PM
Just keep going.
And no... I won't praise the lord for clothespins.
I praise the person that thought of them.

I do praise YOU for continuing your project.
Just keep going. You are learning a lot.
Also it was good you back tracked and got those two frames corrected.
It will pay off. It means you can admit you made a mistake and then fix it.

Sailing reenactor
01-19-2010, 06:05 PM
Yes the glue is what is supposed to keep it all water tight. I hope it'll work. Yes I do suppose it doesn't really matter about the planks being a little off, but it makes the next plank a bugger to figure out! :o I hope I get the big boat done right!

Yea I'm glad I did go back and fix it! It would have been impossible to plank without back tracking. What I don't understand is that number 6 seems to still be a little off in places but it lines up with my lofted drawing just right. And I've double and triplbe checked the lofted drawings.

I am thinking about using smaller planks (like 4 inch) in stead of larger (6 inch) planks on the actual boat. Will this look better, and make the planking easier? (As far as figuring out how to cut the planks and all.) I am planning on cedar for the planking as it is (besides oak and pine) nearly the only thing availiable for boats. I want to do oak frames, mast step, partner, belaying pins, breast hook, etc. The seats will all be cedar too. Anyway I was just wondering if doing a smaller plank would make it easier to figure out. I do need to make sure I get it right because I want a clear finish to be able to see the cedar wood. Just thinking ahead a bit.

Back to the model. I got the battens and the second bottom plank on each side. I'm about to go put the next one on!

Picts later.

Dave

McMike
01-19-2010, 06:56 PM
Great thread and great work!

You’ve inspired me to consider a project like yours.

Sailing reenactor
01-20-2010, 10:27 PM
Hey folks, I got the bottom planked. I'm running about 1/8 inch short of plank of the sides though. I'm going to fill this in with glue and small scrap wood and then sand it. It's the only option I have! The only avilable small wood is much bigger than what I have and I'm not going to order 1 piece of wood from joans!

picts tomorrow. Should be able to get the sides on and all sanded tomorrow!

Dave

johnw
01-21-2010, 01:47 PM
If you measure the planks before you glue them, you and scarf or butt-join them into longer pieces.

donald branscom
01-21-2010, 01:55 PM
Start using a #11 Exacto blade instead of that one you are using.
The #11 blade can do more things and get in tight spots.
Just try it.

To cut larger thicker pieces you can score them with a blade or sheet rock knife then
snap it off and sand the end of the stick.
If you get a sheet rock knife get one of those no frills grey ones that is fixed -skip all the sliding this and that and penlight etc.,etc.,. You would only need the sliding blade if you kept it in your pocket.
Keep them away from children of coarse.
http://i46.tinypic.com/2a4x2h.jpg Simple sheet rock knife
http://i49.tinypic.com/2pphl09.jpg Hot set up #11 exacto knife

Sailing reenactor
01-21-2010, 10:02 PM
Well, I nearly have all the planking on now. Just a tiny sliver on each side. I have a piece of scrap long enough to do one whole side but it is a little short on the other side. (varience in planking)
I have already scarfed two boards together for one side of the baot and you can hardly tell so undoubtedly I will do the same for the one side that has the larger gap.

Here are some pictures. I ran the outside of the sander today a little. It looks really good. I was amazed at how round it looks from the front. It's a neat design. I had a hard time getting the planks on because I can no longer use clothes pins to clamp it. So I had this big cast iron C-clamp, two 2 1/2 ft clamps, and two 1 ft clamps. I had to be carefull because the weight of these larger clamps will wrench the other planks off when trying to clamp the one I'm gluing. So I had baskets and blankets trying to hold the clamps up so the wouldn't stress the hull. It was quite humorous looking.

Anyway, picts!

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03734.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03733.jpg

I will look good in polished cedar!

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03732.jpg

NICE! :rolleyes:

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03731.jpg

The sliver that I'm going to have to fill in.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03730.jpg

The bottom!

Dave

Sailing reenactor
01-21-2010, 10:04 PM
Oh yea Mr Donald! That looks like it would do better than the tool I'm using. I just have a basic set of tools so all I have in angle cuts, are 45 degrees (not sure of the number name) left and right. I have some curve cut sizes, a v-cut, and a straight cut.

Dave

OconeePirate
01-21-2010, 11:18 PM
I would not have the patience to do that with proper wood glue. I'd have resorted to some sort of cyanoacrylate.

johnw
01-22-2010, 01:34 PM
Well, it's starting to look like a boat.

Sailing reenactor
01-26-2010, 09:32 AM
Alright! Here are some update pictures. Looking pretty good so far but the picture from the front is a very painfull reminder of the lack of a good "strongback rig." Notice the difference in the sides there as the starboard side (looking forward) is more straight than the left side.
I still do not see how I could have rigged the strongback for this as prescribed by the link Mr. John posted and as prescribed in my books. I can see how that can be done in full scale when things can be screwed and unscewed but it's hard to unglue! LOL The best idea was the temp. frames and the dowels. Should have waited and done that when I got some more wood! :mad:

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03780.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03779.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03777.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03776.jpg

All the planks are one and the ourside is roughly sanded. I was at the store yesterday picking up string, eye-screw, and dowel for the rigging, so I decided to look for something to spray on the outside to protect the wood. Didn't see anything right off and an idea struck me. I have some fiberglass resin stuff left over from the repairs on the old fiberglass boat, so I though about mixing that stuff up and coating the boat with that. It should water proof it and strengthen it significantly!

Thoughts???

Dave

Sailing reenactor
01-26-2010, 09:53 AM
Ok here is a picture of the projected sail plan for curlew. I would like to change this to a gaff rig with at least one jib. I would like to add a spar primarily for looks but if a jib could be placed on the end of the spar that would be nice as well. The goal is not to move either the mast or the centerboard. How do I figure how to properly change/move the sail square footage in the main and jib to keep the center of effort the same (thereby leaving the mast and centerboard) and yet changing the rig? Could it possibly be as simple as leaving the square footage the same just changing the sail shape/rig to gaff? Or do I have to change the square footage of the sail as the sail changes shape? If I put a jib out front on the spar, I would think in order to leave the mast and centerboard alone, that I would have to enlarge the m'n sail in order to compensate. This means larger mast, beefier supporting, and more difficulty in proper ballasting! Is that assumption correct? Basically is there a mathimatical way that I can figure up proper sail area distribution, to change this boat from a sloop to a gaff with one jib, and not move the centerboard and mast?

:confused:

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03774.jpg

That's the book plan!

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03774-1.jpg

That's everything the books says!

Thanks for thoughts!

Dave

Jim Ledger
01-26-2010, 09:58 AM
I think you'd regret using any kingd of resin to coat the model. Resins make poor coatings, they don't flow out well and they're too thick and hard to sand. One of the modelmakers here will have some better suggestion, no doubt.

Nice job on the model, BTW. When you build full-size, the time spent making the model will really pay off.

Sailing reenactor
01-27-2010, 05:39 PM
I was thinking about the sail change......oh no!

The gaff rig will be shorter than the sloop. So the center of effort, vertically will be different than it would with the sloop.
Is this correct?
However, unless I don't know what I'm talking about, (which is INTIRELY POSSIBLE AND PROBABLE) this would not affect the mast/centerboard location.

If I figured the gaff rig square footage where the main and jib were the same size as the sloop rig wouldn't the boat's center of effort, horizontaly, remain the same? Therefore, not affecting the mast and centerboard location?

The problem would arise if I added the extra jib sail out front, shifting the center of effort farther forward.

If I wanted to add the jib I would need to figure out the pressure against the gaff rig (main and jib) with a given wind speed. (pressure per square ft. times number of square ft. I have a chart that prescribes wind pressure per square ft. at given wind speeds.)
Then I would need to increase the main sail by the same percentage as the added sail area up front. Or I could decreas the size of both of the jibs to be the same as the single jib in the plans.
What I don't know how to do is factor in the pressure as the sail moves farther forward. I.E. JUST increasing the m'n sail size the same as the jib won't work because the sicond jib would be so far forward. So, I would have to factor in the increase of pressure as the second jib moves farther out on the spar! That's where I'm lost!

Ok so that's just a bunch of jibberish.

Let's keep it simple and just stick with the single jib.
Do I just change the m'n sail shape to gaff, and leave the square footage the same?

Dave

johnw
01-27-2010, 06:57 PM
Well, do you know how to find the center of effort in a sail?

Todd Bradshaw
01-27-2010, 07:24 PM
If not, there is a 5-page PDF file here that will show you how to find the CE of various types of sails and also the combined C.E. of groups of sails. In general, you probably want to keep the position of your new combined C.E. in about the same fore-and-aft location as that of the original rig, keep the total sail area pretty similar and also avoid winding up with the new C.E. being higher above the waterline than the old one was. The combined C.E. of your new rig can be adjusted to a certain extent by adjusting the sizes of the various individual sails, but at a certain point, you may find that masts need to be moved.

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradshaw/C.E..pdf

Sailing reenactor
01-27-2010, 07:24 PM
I don't suppose! ;) I was guessing it was where the mast was?

Dave

johnw
01-27-2010, 07:28 PM
I don't suppose! ;) I was guessing it was where the mast was?

Dave
Only if you don't sheet in the sail.

Sailing reenactor
01-27-2010, 09:34 PM
Hey thanks for that file! I think I'm on it now and my geometry course is beginning to look usefull! LOL

I'll let you know if I have any further problems or when I figure all that out!

Basically I need to use that link to find the C.E. of the existing rig plan. Then I need to come up with a gaff rig that has a C.E. very close to the same as the existing rig plan.
Is this correct?

Thanks!
Dave

Todd Bradshaw
01-27-2010, 10:59 PM
Yep, that's the drill. Genuine boat designers might have some more specific ideas for the relationship between the sailplan's C.E. and the hull's C.L.P. for different types of rigs, but assuming that the balance for the original plan was good, matching the centers of the new and old rigs should get you pretty close.

johnw
01-27-2010, 11:02 PM
The CE is already on the plans you have. See the little circles with crosses? One for the main, one for the jib, one for the combined forces of the two sails. The area is marked be each.

So all you have to do is calculate the CE for your proposed rig, then see how hit compares to the original rig.

donald branscom
01-28-2010, 01:20 AM
I think you'd regret using any kingd of resin to coat the model. Resins make poor coatings, they don't flow out well and they're too thick and hard to sand. One of the modelmakers here will have some better suggestion, no doubt.

Nice job on the model, BTW. When you build full-size, the time spent making the model will really pay off.

If the model is for display only, use white BIN primer sealer and put on several coats and sand until smooth. Then apply your color paint.

If you plan to put the model in the water it MUST be sealed or else the wood will absorb moisture and all the planks will warp.
Use fiberglass resin and cloth. Trim and sand top edge, put the rub rail on last over the last coat of fiberglass resin. Final finish sand smooth and put on BIN white primer sealer and paint your color.

When you use the yellow wood glue (which is fine) go back after you get it clamped, and wipe off the excess with a wet cloth. Not a paper towel. Otherwise you will have to scrape the excess glue with your Exacto.

That sliver plank in the boat world is called a steeler plank I believe. It can happen.

Sailing reenactor
01-28-2010, 10:08 AM
Ohhhhh Yes I want to put it in the water. I don't think I have any left over cloth though! :( Just the resin won't cut it eh!? I may have some scrap cloth left though! Can't remember though!

I also didn't want to paint it really! Just seal it up good. That's what I plan to do on full scale! Clear gloss finish kind of like those BEAUTIFULL cedar canoes! :D

The sliver plank and one of the bottom planks I had to scarfe together to get the length I needed! I was surprised to see how well it turned out and accept for a difference in wood color, you can't tell at all.

I should have noticed the C.E. on the plans and now that you say that I do recall having wondered what those odd little crosses were for! LOL That makes my job somewhat easier!

Oh one last thing too!
I believe I have mentioned that in the plan the front 5 ft of the deck (under the jib) is decked over. I don't want to deck it. However, up front there will already be two cross bands on the frames and the mast step. On top of that, I will be adding the belaying pins at the base of the mast. I still don't want to deck it though. SO instead of decking even with the top of the planks, I thought about making some "hatches" to sit in the front. Instead of even with the top of the planking though it would just be level from the mast step forward. By hatches I mean the criss crossed covers that go on big traditional ships. That's a bad explination.....perhaps I'll draw it up sometime!

Dave

Todd Bradshaw
01-28-2010, 12:05 PM
Fiberglass resin with cloth is no more waterproof than fiberglass resin without cloth. It's the resin itself doing the waterproofing, not the cloth that is in there. When cloth is added, it is to increase strength, abrasion resistance, flexibility, etc. of the layer, not to make it more waterproof. On a traditional planked construction like this, where the strength and structure is in the wood, I can't see any reason on earth to complicate the project with fiberglass cloth, because your boat probably doesn't need anything that it could offer to the mix.

The same could most likely be said for the resin. Jim isn't kidding when he says that resin is thick, goes on rather lumpy and is hard to sand smooth. If your plank seams are tight and the glue is waterproof, then there seems to be little reason not to finish the hull with the same materials that have been used to finish real planked wooden hulls for eons - varnish, paint, or even oil in some cases. The resin you have is probably polyester, which isn't particularly good on wood in the first place. There are certainly some wooden boat construction methods where resin and glass are an important part of the structure or added for specific reasons, but this is pretty basic traditional-style construction and isn't really one of them. For typical day-sailing, the model should be plenty waterproof enough with a good varnish or paint finish and it will be a lot easier to get a nice one without the complications that fiberglass would add to the project.

Sailing reenactor
01-29-2010, 06:02 PM
Well the m'n sail on the diagram is 105 square foot so I figured I'd best start with getting a gaff sail that size. Then deal with the CE.
I sat down with some graff paper (I LOVE graff paper) and in about 15 minutes got the gaff sail to 105.5 square foot! Pretty good if you ask me! LOL But I'm biased! Now for the CE trick! LOL

Dave

Todd D
01-30-2010, 09:09 AM
A few pointers on building models. The methods I use are for strip plank construction, but many of them would help you quite a bit.

First - Use a strongback and build the model upside down. I normally use a simple plank as a strongback. I cut out station molds from the plans with a common reference line so I can glue them to the strongback and they will be at the correct vertical position.

Here is a strongback with station molds glued in place and a couple of planks glued on.

http://www.todddunnmicroyachts.com/2007/chabuka-1.JPG

If you wanted to build the model with proper frames, you could glue ribands to the station molds then put the ribs in place against the ribbands.

Second - I use Cyanyacrylate super glue. You can get it at most hobby shops or by mail order from on-line hobby shops (Tower Hobbies has good prices). Cyanoacrylate super glue sets up MUCH faster than gorilla glue so you don't need to clamp it for more than a minute or so. Clamping time depends on what you are glueing and on temperature as well as on the particular cyanoacrylate glue you are using. I prefer the medium glue because it takes a bit longer to set and has some gap filling properties.

Third - if you are going to glass the hull, I would suggest using balsa planking. You can buy balsa quite cheaply. I find that 1/16" thick balsa makes decent planking and is very strong if you put a layer of 6 oz glass cloth set in epoxy over it. You can of course, plank with other woods. The model in the picture above was being planked in western red cedar that I resawed and milled to thickness and width. You can buy mahogany and bass wood from most hobby shops. There are also sources of more exotic woods such as walnut.

Here is a typical result that you can achieve if you are patient. This model is a radio control sailing model. The sails are 2 oz dacron and are simply flat cut. It sails quite nicely. The keel is a Star keel (cast from patterns for the keel of a Star boat.

http://www.todddunnmicroyachts.com/2007/aidan-22.jpg

Todd D
01-30-2010, 09:21 AM
As far as resin coating is concerned. If you used regular wood (not balsa), I would sand the hull fair then paint a couple of coats of epoxy onto it. You can the sand the epoxy and paint with your choice of paints or varnish. For a model you won't have any plank warp problems because you won't leave it in the water long enough for water to pepetrate your coating. The model in the picture above is planked with western red cedar. I then put two coats of epoxy on, sanded it fair and painted it with interlux brightsides. I did seal the INSIDE of the hull with epoxy.

My web page has step by step construction details for over 100 models if you are interested. I would also be happy to answer any specific questions you might have.

http://www.todddunnmicroyachts.com

Sailing reenactor
01-30-2010, 06:20 PM
Thanks Mr. Todd!
I don't understand the strongback though. If I put the molds in, when I glue the planks on they will be glued to the molds! I just don't quite get that, but I do want to try it in my next model. I had looked at the balsa wood but it just seemed SOOOO fragile and almost foamy in texture. I thought it might not be as good! Live and learn!

For the here and now though.

First, what exactly do you mean by epoxy? Can I just go to Lowes and get some epoxy and coat the hull with it, or do I have to order some marine epoxy? (I think Lowes had a thing of "marine" epoxy but wood wasn't on the list of items it would adhere to. Isn't wood a synonim for marine? LOL) Many of the epoxies that Lowes had said they were waterproof.
One thing to consider here too is this model won't be in the water a lot. Perhaps a few minutes on a windy day in our pond, will be the extent of it's use. The primary purpose is practice. So with that in mind, would a cheep waterproof epoxy from lowes be sufficient?

Second question! What is varnish? I assume it is the clear finish that allows you to see the wood grain. That is what I want on my full scale. I'd rather not paint this model either. (Please just go ahead and tell me if I'm the first one on the entire forum to ever ask what varnish is! :D)

Well, I knocked up the CE for a main gaff sail that has the same square feet as the sloop main. How close does the CE of the plans and of the new rig need to be? First try, I got the main sails CE and the boats CE for both rigs within 6 inches of each other.
The gaff's CE is about 6.5 inches lower and slightly to the rear of the sloop's CE. (This is just for the main sail.) The boat's CE with the new gaff is about 4 inches lower and very sightly to the rear of the CE for the sloop rig. See pics.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03880.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03882.jpg

The question is: IS THIS CLOSE ENOUGH for the model and for the full scale? (The measurements for how off it is, are for the full scale version.)

This next one is just for fun!

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/20thanniversarytrip691.jpg

LOL I'm actually in that one! (Front lines second from the left in the front battalion! LOL) Gotta love the camera guy on the far left!

Dave

Todd D
01-30-2010, 10:06 PM
The CE shifts you calculate won't cause any problems. You can move the new CE forward by slightly shorting the boom and gaff.

donald branscom
01-31-2010, 06:51 PM
If you are going to put the model in the water you need to use the cloth with the resin otherwise what happens is the boat will warp anyway and the fiberglass resin will get hairline cracks, and the water will still leak into the boat. I know this from experience.

Use cloth and resin. Otherwise you will be sorry.
Some small scraps will be fine, just make sure it is covered and the pieces over lap.
Then when that dries, put some more resin on so that when you sand it, you do not sand through the cloth. Use one piece for each side.

Just paint the inside the color you want.
Model in photo below was radio controlled and the hull was covered with fiberglass cloth . The entire top structure was removable. Five feet long.
http://i45.tinypic.com/258z2fb.jpg

johnw
01-31-2010, 07:25 PM
The CE shifts you calculate won't cause any problems. You can move the new CE forward by slightly shorting the boom and gaff.
Or you could increase the height of that tiny jib and make it larger.

Sailing reenactor
01-31-2010, 07:49 PM
So what you are saying is if I enlarge the jib it will shift the CE up and forward do get it closer on?

Makes sense.....may try to knock that up tonight!

Dave

StevenBauer
01-31-2010, 07:52 PM
Hey Dave, have you seen my Footy thread?

www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109091

I'll have a couple more pics later tonight.



Steven

Todd D
01-31-2010, 10:40 PM
Dave,

Lower is better for the center of effort of the sails. You will get less heel with a lower CE. I wouldn't make changes that raise the CE.

Sailing reenactor
02-01-2010, 10:01 AM
Yes I have seen the footy thread and will keep up with it!

Yea I tried enlarging the jib about 10 sq. ft. and it drastically changed the CE. I may size down to an enlargement of 3-5 square ft. and see what that does. Most likely I'll stick with what I have though!
Dave

johnw
02-01-2010, 01:39 PM
Dave,

Lower is better for the center of effort of the sails. You will get less heel with a lower CE. I wouldn't make changes that raise the CE.
Well, he lowered it with his first try, and moved it aft. Putting it back where it was shouldn't do any harm.

Sailing reenactor
02-02-2010, 06:10 PM
Here are some pictures as of yesterday. I have the mast step and partner in and the centerboard as well.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03888.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03889.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03890.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03891.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03892.jpg

These are the spars for the mast. They have since been sanded and look very nice. I've also put some decking in the bottom where the seats are going to be and got the seats cut out and ready. I just have to put the framing in for them. I would like to have four sweeps on the full scale boat but the benches prescribed in the plans will not work for sweeps. I am thinking about removing the cross band from the rear of the centerboard housing. In the place of the cross band I woul put braces (like upside down knees) on frames 4, 5, and 6 to support the housing. Removeable seats would be placed on either side of the housing. Come rowing time the seats would be installed, and when it was time to sail the seats woul be removed and placed in the storage space foward of the mast. That would get rid of the cross band that would be in the way of moving around, and would allow seats for the rowers while retaining the more comfortable benches aft.

Right now I am working on the checkered hatch that I am thinking about putting forward of the mast partner on the actual boat.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03859.jpg

For those of you who want a face with these words, here I am! Historically dressed with a new leather dublet I finished recently!

Dave

Bob Cleek
02-03-2010, 01:03 AM
First time I checked this thread out. You've done quite a good job! You should take pride in what is a very credible first effort on a difficult build. As I read through the thread, a few things came to mind, in no particular order.

You had problems with set up, which it seems you did well overcoming. There is a somewhat different technique used for setting up in modeling than in full size construction. In a boat like this, one would loft the frames so their heads were all at the same point on an imaginary level plane above the sheer. The sheer line is marked on the frames. Then you'd set them up on a flat plank (sort of a modeler's strongback). You can attach them however you want, but most just run blocking perpendicular to the centerline and lightly glue the frame heads to that. Alternately, you can cut pockets into which the frameheads are placed, or cut out the shape created by the stem heads from your lofting and set it all inside that. When the hull is planked up, you cut the frame heads to the proper length along the sheer.

Gorilla glue is pretty tough to sand and fair. These days, a lot of modelers are using cyanoacrilate glues ("Super Glue") because they set up within about ten or twenty seconds. No clamping beyond holding the part in place. Hobby stores sell larger one ounce or so bottles, which are much cheaper than the little tubes you get in the blister packs. The "gap filling" gel type is best for most assembly applications. The thin stuff runs all over the place. Just a tiny droplet of this stuff is all you need. (There's some controversy about CA glue among serious modelers, though. We don't know how long it will last and "museum quality" models are intended to last for at least 100 years without major restoration, given appropriate care. Some use the CA glues only for tacking in place, relying on traditional wood glue for overall strength. Then, of course, the standards for serious models do require that all parts are mechanically fastened in any event.)

Shellac is a very good finishing material which when softly sanded will approximate a good wood finish. It is inexpensive and cleans up easily with alcohol. It is also a very good moisture barrier which will protect the model from humidity changes and movement. It is easy to paint over, if that's what you want to do. I use it as an all purpose sealer and as a finish for scale brightwork, which shouldn't be too shiney if you want it to look right.

If you are painting the model, feel free to use glazing compound (I use Interlux glasing compound, although some will go with plain old Spackle.) to fair the surfaces. Slap it on the dings and divots and then sand fair and paint. Purists, of course, finish many models bright with no paint, and that displays the workmanship to its best advantage.

Don't apologize for using clothes pins. They are pretty standard with serious modelers.

Also, your use of string to fasten ribbands and such shows you are thinking. This is, actually, the standard practice in laying out fully framed models.

You would do well to buy a few books on modeling. Forget the ones that tell you how to build plank on bulkhead kits or are full of lists of nautical terms for people who don't know boats and ships and just want to build yet another model of Nelson's Victory or such. Check out Amazon or whatever and get Davis's model building books (The Ship Model Builder's Assistant) and Harold Underill's two volumes on building plank on frame models (One is on the hull construction and the other is on masting and rigging.) I believe these may be in paperback reprints now, as is Monk's book which you are working from. Another good read is The Nautical Research Guild's Journal. They have a great "best of" book called "Ship Modeler's Shop Notes," to which they have now added a "Volume II." http://www.thenrg.org/store.html This is chock full of "tricks of the trade" which members have written up in past issues of the Journal.

Beyond that, keep at it. It'll keep you out of trouble and, over time, if you get good enough at it, you may make a few bucks at it here and there... if you can part with your masterpieces at all!

Sailing reenactor
02-03-2010, 11:18 PM
I appreciate the advice and will comment later.....

I don't have much time now but here are some quick photo's of the latest.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03910.jpg
That one is of the hatch type thing I want up front. I didn't put the rest of the pieces running fore to aft because the rest wasn't turning out so hot! That gives you an idea though!



http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03912.jpg

Some belaying pins at the base of the mast.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03914.jpg
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03916.jpg
The first picture there, is of the eyes for the rigging. The second shows the backing for the eye on the side of the boat.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03909.jpg
There is the benches and decking aft. I don't have the materials to do the removeable seats I'd mentioned for the rowers. Those seats will be on either side of the CB though.

To keep things fun here is a fire place grate I made the other day out of 3/4 inch square bar. It's forged and welded.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03833.jpg

Dave

Sailing reenactor
02-06-2010, 10:22 PM
Well, I've finished the rigging, sails, etc. I'm waiting for some warmer weather to apply the water proof "contact cement" I got to clear coat the hull with.
I did put a coat of some cheap epoxy I had laying around for knife handles, on the bottom. I also lined the inside with a light coat of waterproof glue.
So today, I took it out on our little pond.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03933.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03935.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03936.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03940.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03944.jpg

More to follow!

Sailing reenactor
02-06-2010, 10:25 PM
SO on the pond....
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03945.jpg

And about a minute later...........
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03946.jpg

It was just a light breeze but this thing flipped at the drop of a hat!

So I'm wondering.....uhhhhh.....what do I do?
It also doesn't seem to go straight for the little while that it does stay upright. Does this have something to do with the fact that the hull isn't exactly uniform?
Thought???
Dave

Svensk
02-07-2010, 12:11 AM
In my opinion, the center board is not heavy enough.:confused:

StevenBauer
02-07-2010, 12:26 AM
More ballast, definitely. Real boats don't scale down exactly the way you'd think they would. The radio control Footys like I build have a much different keel than a real boat does. That is a lead bulb on the bottom:

http://www.rcsailing.net/forum1/attachment.php?attachmentid=3315&d=1244547639

johnw
02-07-2010, 01:16 AM
It capsized because there was nobody sitting on the weather rail. Same thing would happen to your big boat without you aboard. To substitute for that, you'll need a deep ballasted keel. You'll also need some flotation so it doesn't sink when it heels too far. The lack of side decks is a problem, because it can't heel as far before water comes over the lee rail.

jsjpd1
02-07-2010, 01:28 AM
Your model looks pretty good Dave.

When you're figuring out how much ballast you need you could run some tests in the bath tub. The hair dryer works pretty good for artifical wind. It worked well for me, and saves running back and forth to the pond.

Sailing reenactor
02-08-2010, 03:54 PM
Ok I need to get more weight on the centerboard. That's what I figured. I put a rock on the weather rail but when the wind shifted you can imagine what happened. But while it remained on the weather side the boat did well.

So how do I mathematically figure out how deep the centerboard needs to be and how much weight I need. Does it have to be lead? I have some 3/4 inch square steel on hand that I could shape. If it has to be lead, I mold bullets for my .58 cal., so I know how to work with it.

Thanks,
Dave

johnw
02-08-2010, 06:35 PM
So, what's the scale, 1/12?

Area scales by the square of the scale, volume by the cube, stability (if memory serves, I don't have my copy of Skene's handy) by the fourth power. 12 to the fourth is 20,736, so your boat has 1/20736 as much stability as the full-sized one. Figure the crew weight would be about 300 lb. or so, and the cube of 12 is 1,728, so you will need about 2.8 oz of ballast. You can't get it to move to the weather rail when you tack, so put it at the bottom of the longest keel that is practical, maybe 4 inches or more. I'd hang the ballast on a bit of steel going up into the centerboard case and with a pin at the top of the case so you can take it out. Make sure you put enough ballast into the boat to float the ballast, or the whole works will end up at the bottom of the pond. The deeper the ballast, the more leverage it has as the boat heels.

donald branscom
02-08-2010, 07:05 PM
SO on the pond....
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03945.jpg

And about a minute later...........
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn114/fiddlegirl89_photos/Dave/DSC03946.jpg

It was just a light breeze but this thing flipped at the drop of a hat!

So I'm wondering.....uhhhhh.....what do I do?
It also doesn't seem to go straight for the little while that it does stay upright. Does this have something to do with the fact that the hull isn't exactly uniform?
Thought???
Dave

It is not you model that has a problem.
The model is to scale BUT the wind is NOT to scale.
So it would be like sailing a boat in hurricane force winds.

You will have to add a bean bag with lead shot to the inside.
Or some small pieces of lead. Don't glue them or attach them just set them in the lowest part of the boat.

It needs a rudder. I do not see one. It would be like an arrow with NO tail feathers.

Sailing reenactor
02-09-2010, 10:24 AM
The scale is 1/8th. An inch is 1/8 inch in my model. I'll add the rudder and try the bag of lead....if that don't work I'll try the deep board!

Dave

johnw
02-09-2010, 01:56 PM
The scale is 1/8th. An inch is 1/8 inch in my model. I'll add the rudder and try the bag of lead....if that don't work I'll try the deep board!

Dave
Right. So, a 300 lb. crew will weigh 4,800 oz. and the weight of the boat will be 1/512 of the original. You need about 9.4 oz of ballast. I doubt inside ballast will work in any kind of breeze. Make sure you've got the flotation.

Sailing reenactor
02-09-2010, 07:37 PM
10/4
I've got a little lead left over from my bullets. Hopefully I'll be able to turn somthing out. As far as shape goes what should I do? About the only thing I have the materials for here, is to make something and then file/grind it down. (Like I can cast 1 /b and 1/2 lb lead bars) I suppose a tear-drop shape at the end of an extended centerboard piece would do!? Doesn't the "pointy" end of the "tear-drop" point aft?
If a small enough piece could be made from the 3/4 inch steel bar I have, I could forge it to shape! That would be nice!

Dave

johnw
02-09-2010, 07:45 PM
Steel would work. You just need to make sure it's deep enough, and a teardrop shape would help.

Sailing reenactor
02-20-2010, 02:03 PM
Someone mentioned the lack of a rudder! Does the rudder to be mounted solid to the transom or does it need to be able to rotate?

johnw
02-20-2010, 02:20 PM
Someone mentioned the lack of a rudder! Does the rudder to be mounted solid to the transom or does it need to be able to rotate?
Make it so it can rotate. Use a rubber band to keep the boat going straight. You can adjust the direction of the lead on the rubber band if the boat has too much weather helm.

Sailing reenactor
02-20-2010, 07:42 PM
Ok! Well I didn't get to it today!:mad: I've been doing a good bit of smith work lately (belt buckle, RR spike knife, and fire place screen) but have been too busy to get to the boat. Today was really warm though so I put the waterproof contact cement on the hull.:D It looks pretty good! More later! Perhaps mid/late next week, as we will be out of town in the begining of the week!

Dave