Mounting a Winch on a Wood Mast

[rigorus]

Very very basic question here.

How do I best mount winches and winch pads on a spruce, box constructed mast? The winches are Murrays, with four screw fasteners required.

I understand through-bolting would be optimum, but with the fastener heads needing to be flush with the winch-base surface, bolts can't be used.

[Mrleft8]

Very very basic question here.

How do I best mount winches and winch pads on a spruce, box constructed mast? The winches are Murrays, with four screw fasteners required.

I understand through-bolting would be optimum, but with the fastener heads needing to be flush with the winch-base surface, bolts can't be used.

Of course they can. You just need to buy the correct type of bolt.

[Ian McColgin]

Well, firstly flat head bolts are common enough, usually slotted. But through bolting may not be necessary, or may be only required on the two bottom fastenings.

I'd use bolts in any event. Thread the holes into the wood and harden it with unthickened epoxy. The entire stress on the upper bolts is shere and while there is some pull strain on the two lowers, it's minor. I have found that in this sort of application bolts in properly tapped holes is better than screws.

If you really must through bolt the lowers, be carful not to over tighten and crush the box. A very neat job I did one boat had the jib halyard winch and main halyard winch opposing each other. One side - main as I recall, that being the less stressed - had the holes in the base brazed over, rebored with no countersink and threaded. Made the whole winch pad the nut.

But really, through bolting is not important here.

If the halyards are all fiber, you might make a little wedge under the pad, feather end down, to cant the winches a little making an over-ride less likely. This is nice during the hand part of hoisting even though of course being a good seaman you'll only have one loop on the winch during the rapid haul, casting the other two on only just before inserting the handle and cranking.

G'luck

[rigorus]

I'd rather not through-bolt to avoid moving hardware on the opposite side of the mast.


If the halyards are all fiber, you might make a little wedge under the pad, feather end down, to cant the winches a little making an over-ride less likely.

You can achieve the same effect by shaping the cant of the winch pad, yes?

Is a good sturdy winch mount a simple matter of wetting the holes with epoxy and using beefy screws long enough to run through the winch base and the mast? Do I want the screws to fully penetrate the mast wood?

[JimConlin]

Hie thee to The Gospel According to Meade in the New Testament (The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction), Chapter 14 (Hardware Bonding).
Therein you will learn how high loads can be transferred from fasteners to soft materials like spruce.

And, read again all of what Ian said.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Here is what I did.... The walnut winch mount was a solid block which was drilled with a very large hole drill on a drill press. It was laminated to the mast with thickened epoxy, then the winch was screwed to the block. The shear strength of the screw were sufficient to mount the winch, and the walnut is considerably stronger than the sitka mast. Keep in mind this is a '0' winch... so the distance around the middle is about 1.25 inches;)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v378/nanzep/Dove/018-2.jpg?t=1262489432

[Ian McColgin]

Bolts. Not screws. When you drill prior to tapping, use a bit about 1/32 or so smaller than what that tap would normally use were the hole bored in metal. With wood that makes for a better thread cut.

I'd confused terminology and was incorrectly using winch pad as a synonym for winch base. Were I mounting a winch on a box section mast and for some reason did not want a little cant, I'd not bother with a pad at all. Yes, bevel the pad.

With screws you loose holding power as the screws leave the inside of the mast and more of the thick unthreaded part of the screw, which is supposed to be in the outer layers and just a nudge into the inner, is too deep in the mast. Bolts give you thread and shere strength all the way through.

[Ian McColgin]

There are situations where a mast mounted halyard winch is not such a good idea.

For example, of a jib halyard you might get adequate power without any winch at all if you have the halyard fixed to the truck or where ever above the jib's peak, run it through a running block that attaches to the peak, back up through a block and down the port side of the mast. Alternativly you might have a snatch cheek block on the mast and a becket block on the halyard. A little working out and you can haul the jib up a ways, pull out the bight between becket and block, slip that over the cheek block and tension her up.

On the main halyard side, you may find that instead of a winch, a sliding gooseneck with plenty of advantage in the downhaul will do it.

On today's boats there is a desperate over-use of deck turning blocks to bring the halyards back to cabin top mounted winches. In general these are laid out by people who don't think through short-handed reefing.

If the boat is large enough to stand up by the mast, it's mostly better off with mast mounted halyard winches at a comfortable height. If you're at all serious, add sissy bars to brace against.

Sometimes putting the winches a little lower and sitting at the mast base works well, but remember that you must reef so do this only if the boom is low enough to reach sitting.

G'luck

[Woxbox]

Box-section masts sometimes have solid blocking inside where hardware is to be attached. Do you know what's inside yours?

[suedebriar]

I think I am with Ian on this one. You are not thinking it through. Most sailing is done in genital pleasant times when it doesn't mater and someone is there to hoist when you are ready "at the mast." This is used by around the buoys racers that are never in real rough conditions.

When you must reef it is in the worst conditions and the worst place is not at the mast but traveling to the mast. If you tail the halyard to the cockpit first you must release the halyard, travel to the mast (most dangerous), then try to attach the reef cringles and find "oh my god" the halyard is stuck in in something back in the cockpit. Don't forget Murphy's law. You must go back to the cockpit "most dangerous," fix the snag, go back to the mast (most dangerous) and continue to reef. After securing the reef cringles you must go back to the cockpit (most dangerous) and hoist the halyard. Wait, you still have to go back along the boom and tie the reef points (most dangerous).

This must be done when for some reason you are the only one that can.

[rigorus]

Working lines from the cockpit helps reduce exposure to dangers in rough conditions and I was thankful not to have to go out on deck a few years back while single-handing my first boat in the PNW. My current boat, however, is a different animal, with the halyards and reefing lines at or near the mast. Having experience with both systems, for me working at the mast is preferable.

With the previous boat, going forward in rough seas was a fearful adventure. I would reluctantly stagger forward with my mind more full of the fear of things that could put me over the side than with what needed to be done. When I got to where I was going it took me longer to resolve the problem because the problem itself was secondary to my safety concerns, thereby increasing my and the boat's exposure to the dangers, if only for an extra minute.

On my current boat, a cutter-rigged, 28-footer outfitted with an eight-foot bowsprit, I have no halyards or reefing lines led back. I mostly single-hand and am out on deck working the halyards and reefing in all conditions (not yet Force 9 or 10, though) When I leave the safety of the cockpit my mind is focused on what needs to be done. Safety has become second nature. I know what to hold on to where and when. I know how to best brace myself at the mast and on the foredeck. I know this because I'm out there every time something needs to be done. Increased exposure, yes, but repetition has led to an increase in confidence and knowledge that brings danger and safety more into balance.

Another point worth noting is that when I had lines running through a maze of organizers on my first boat, friction slowed the process of raising and especially lowering the sails. And when dealing with lines led to the cockpit, you get the Murphy's Law situation Roger Olson mentions about lines snagging in the cockpit and repeated trips to and from the mast. It's hard to beat the ease and speed at which the main can come down when worked at the mast.

When working on or sailing my boat, I try to keep this quote in mind:

"As a system increases in complexity to infinity, the mean time between failures approaches zero."

My 0.02¢ worth.

[Ian McColgin]

Seconding rigorus:

To the mast or cockpit? It really depends upon the size of the boat in general but certainly not always. To me it’s a matter of convenience and I can’t begin to express my disagreement with Candyfloss’s tone on this one. No matter where you handle the sail from, you must be able to work at the mast base and foredeck in all weather, all conditions in any cruising boat.

You cannot fully handle a hanked on jib from the cockpit, though if both a downhaul and halyard are led to the cockpit. A downhaul is absolute necessity for off-shore or seriously sailed boat, given how a jib is self-setting in anything from a Gale (Force 8, up to 40 knot wind) up. That gets it down but even with the leeward sheet taught hardly secure.

Various roller furlers still require you to head out on deck either to change jibs or to fix the inevitable failure.

Same with the main. You may have halyards and reef clews and reef tacks all to the cockpit but sooner or later you have to roam about under the book tying in the nettles. If you’re actually a sailor who goes where reefing might matter.

So, any serious sailor who has not attended to making the trip out on deck utterly safe and routine has failed in his or her first duty. There are lots of ways to do this, which is another topic but on this I'm utterly dogmatic. Even on Marmalade, which I have laid out to be handleable entirely from the cockpit for convenience, given the low sweep of the boom and the very little room up in the eyes of the bow either side of the mast, I made provision for safe passage. I generally tie in the third reef for a Near Gale (Force 7, maybe 30 knots of wind) though there have been times I carried on off the wind with the second reef way too long and had to bring in the third in very sharp seas with a Strong Gale (Force 9, wind about 45 knots).

So I mean it - safety on deck or don’t bother sailing further off than you want to swim.

A proper boat will lie still while you set, strike or reef. Usually this is a variation on heaving to. Each boat does it differently and the real sailor will let the boat do the teaching on this. Any designer of a cruising boat who makes a boat that won’t do this - I regret to say this is a majority of the pinch nosed tupperwear abominations afloat today - should be sentenced to life (short though it may be) on their own slippery foredecks.

So the advantages of having the reefing lines and halyards at the mast (or shrouds) are mainly simplicity of layout, better mechanical advantage and more efficient working position. A secondary advantage is fewer lines along the deck to twist underfoot.

LFH boasted of laying out the Marco Polo with halyards all to the cockpit. This made a clutter of cordage in a very small space and very few are thus rigged. The sails are more comfortably and safely handled from their respective masts.

Why ever endure the inefficiencies of bringing the lines all back? Sometimes it’s more convenient. It should never never never be in lieu of safety on deck.

[rigorus]

Thanks, Ian.

I just learned this morning after giving them a good cleaning that the Murray winches I want to mount have been tapped for 8mm bolts (unlike the other Murrays I have aboard), and I'd like to take advantage of that

Am I to use a standard tap and die kit made for tapping metal, or something made especially for wood? I've read elsewhere that some types of wood don't take a tap very well, with the threads crumbling. Is this an issue with a wood as soft as Spruce? I plan to use unthickened epoxy in the holes to firm things up and add water resistence. Is this enough?

[Ian McColgin]

I just use regular taps. But I make the pilot hole about 1/32 smaller than the standard called for. Many taps tell you this about wood in the directions. I tap by hand so it's steady and run not so fast that it will harm the wood. Very soft woods need the rigidity provided by epoxy more than very hard woods, but the epoxy helps seal the grain, so go for it.

I just smear the bolt with a bit of epoxy and run it down. If you worry about the problem of stainless corrosion under epoxy, which I don't but anyway, back it out after the epoxy's set - it'll break free easily enough - and then reset it after putting some oil or something on the threads. I like a really thin epoxy sealer for this, like CPES. Not a glue.

[Baltimore Lou]

Suedebriar, what are you guys doing up there in Eldersburg? "Most sailing is done in genital pleasant times" Sounds like fun! ;)

[John B]

Suedebriar, what are you guys doing up there in Eldersburg? "Most sailing is done in genital pleasant times" Sounds like fun! ;)
Heh heh , that brought some joy to our household as well.