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View Full Version : as an employer this is one of the tasks that i dislike the most



Paul Pless
01-02-2010, 05:09 PM
I gotta fire somebody this week. It sucks! I hate doing it!

I shoulda done it a while ago, but I let it drag out over the course of a few months that I spent in Michigan without travel to Alabama. Then I gave him (without his knowledge) a Christmas reprieve. But its time. I pay my staff on Mondays, but I gave this guy a long holiday weekend and he asked for his check on Thursday. I didn't have the heart to tell him not to bother coming in next year.:rolleyes: So I'll probably let him work this week then let him go Friday.

Memphis Mike
01-02-2010, 05:11 PM
So what's his problemo?

Lew Barrett
01-02-2010, 05:17 PM
Sorry you are weighed by this. I know what you mean. Even the most annoying employees are very difficult to fire when push comes to shove. When layoffs are a result of business conditions, it's even worse. My sympathies, but remember that by trimming the staff you create a more secure environment for those who are left. It still sucks though.

The worst aspect of my recent closure was letting all the employees go....very stressful and without the least bit of joy, an action with no redeeming virtues.

skuthorp
01-02-2010, 05:20 PM
It's the hardest job there is to do Paul. I used to feel nauseous for days as I contemplated the task. These days many corporations use a young female to do the dirty work or worse, do it by email or text. OTOH every time I have been laid off it has been to my advantage as I always used it as an opportunity and often changed direction completely. If he is receptive and the circumstances appropriate offer him support and references.

I feel your pain. I remember every one that I had to lay off.

Paul Pless
01-02-2010, 05:20 PM
Memphis, on the plus side, which is very hard for me to reconcile, is that he's absolutely reliable: he never misses a day of work and he's always on time. The problem is that he'll do anything that you ask him, generally to about 90% of my satisfaction - then he sits down until I, or my manager find him and give him another set of tasks. My other staff 'know' that when theyre done with their work they should go find out where the other staff are with their work for the day and help them or they should come find my manager or supervisor or me and find out what's up - that just doesn't click with him for some reason. I've gone over it with him many times - he's just not a 'team player'. Its not fair to me and its not fair to the rest of the guys that work here to be paired with a co-worker that doesn't pull as much weight as everyone else.

Lew, Sku, this isn't really a layoff - I've never layed anybody off due to economic conditions before.

elf
01-02-2010, 05:22 PM
Never been an employer, but I sure can sympathize. It's always so difficult to confront someone who you have found inadequate to whatever contract you made with them - it's the conflict between the thing each of you knows that neither of you wishes to bring up but both fear that the other will.

Lew Barrett
01-02-2010, 05:27 PM
That's a very good point, Jeff. As employers we naturally walk around with the knowledge of our actions for weeks or months, not speaking of the decision (in my case) to anybody else outside perhaps my wife. Staffinbg changes of any sort never take place as a surprise...they may be train wrecks but they are not "accidents" in the usual sense.

So you live with the decision for a long time, and it weighs on you, whereas for most employees, no matter how well you try to plow the ground and make your intentions clear, it always seems to come as a surprise. Thus you live with it for quite some time.

To be honest to myself though, I rue more the people I should have fired but didn't than the ones I needed to fire and did ultimately let go. If I ever act as a consultant to somebody needing help in this regard, it will be to say that small companies cannot afford to carry dead weight on the books. But it doesn't make letting people go a very easy task for the entrepreneur who must manage his or her circumstances with care.

Chris Coose
01-02-2010, 05:27 PM
I've had one or two take the rope and put it around their necks. That was worth waiting for, as I knew it was likely to happen.

I saw some rope laid out for me one time and after the initial schock of it I got the message and made some changes to last long enough to make the departure more on my terms.

Yep, always a pain in the butt but once it is done it is like the refreshing feeling you get once you take the hammer off your thumb.

Lew Barrett
01-02-2010, 05:28 PM
one else.

Lew, Sku, this isn't really a layoff - I've never layed anybody off due to economic conditions before.

I wasn't suggesting it was. You are lucky. I never did a layoff of that type until this year myself. But that is one tough thing to have to do. Firing "for cause?" A bit less painful....if only a bit.

Mrleft8
01-02-2010, 05:30 PM
Can't you just pet him gently on the forehead, tell him it'll just be a teeny little prick, and then count backwards from 10?

Lew Barrett
01-02-2010, 05:32 PM
Can't you just pet him gently on the forehead, tell him it'll just be a teeny little prick, and then count backwards from 10?


In the real world an HR exec would get fired for giving this sort of terrible advice! :D;)

2MeterTroll
01-02-2010, 05:34 PM
IMO find him a partner with an attitude. On ship i occasionally get this sort and i find some one to pair them with, call it a buddy system. I have also manipulated things so the OA actually asks for the partnership :) (took me removing some bits from his car and paying the bill for the mechanic to take his sweet time but it was worth every penny) car pool/work buddies with mr. reliable driving worked best.

usually the partner ends up being an over achiever that i need to slow down a little before the rest of the crew kills them. the advantages of this are that the on time reliable person tends to steady the OA down and the OA tends to make the reliable guy do better work and find new tasks.
It works for me I have no idea how it would work in your business.

edit: IMO there is a place for everyone so i tried to find the best fit; sometimes that included finding an employee a new job.
I have let several go over the years but managed to do so in a way that was win win. takes some effort but i found it worth it.

Memphis Mike
01-02-2010, 05:34 PM
Those "team players" are really important. I'll be so glad when it's an employee market again. Of course GWB changed that for a very long time.

Mrleft8
01-02-2010, 05:35 PM
In the real world an HR exec would get fired for giving this sort of terrible advice! :D;)

Thank gawd I live in the surreal whirled!:cool:

rbgarr
01-02-2010, 05:37 PM
Let him know if he won't be getting a good reference from you.

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
01-02-2010, 05:50 PM
I WISH I could fire somebody else.
Instead it's always me that gets fired.
I'd rather be on your end of the deal Paul.

Paul Pless
01-02-2010, 05:55 PM
Those "team players" are really important. Yeah... that's an overused cliche', should've worded it differently I suppose.

Mrleft8
01-02-2010, 05:59 PM
Yeah... that's an overused cliche', should've worded it differently I suppose.

I wonder if DMKIA would consider a move to Wewahtumpkiss......

Memphis Mike
01-02-2010, 06:00 PM
Instead of firing him in this economy, if it were me, I believe I would assign one of my more "trusted" employees to keep him busy at all times and make sure he gives 120%. Afterall, no one should be allowed to sit down on the job.:rolleyes: If you fire him, Paul, I want to apply. Can you say "labor union.":D

Hwyl
01-02-2010, 06:01 PM
What reverse garbanzo said

htom
01-02-2010, 06:02 PM
Been there, done that, both sides. Memories of firing people are much more distinct, even after decades. Being let go or fired, not so much.

Bill R
01-02-2010, 06:12 PM
I feel your pain. It sucks when it is for cause. It sucks a whole lot worse when Corporate says you must reduce headcount and you have to let go a hardworking reliable skilled employee who's only fault is the fact that someone decided he was 1 too many people.

Memphis Mike
01-02-2010, 06:13 PM
In all seriousness. How old is this person? Some people have just never been taught how to work. The proper procedure for firing even with non union companies is the "three strikes you're out" policy. Have you given him a written warning?

I had this guy that busted my butt in the coal mines of WV and taught me a proper work ethic. Has this guy had that? Like I said. How old?

Paul Pless
01-02-2010, 06:33 PM
Mike, he's a former self employed subcontractor from the construction industry - I figure he's had his ass chewed before - that's not my management style though. I hired him a year and half ago when the construction bubble burst. He's had written and verbal warnings - those are State of Alabama law with regards to unemployment compensation mediation. I won't contest him filing for unemployment regardless. I've got cause to let him go, he just won't change what I've asked him to change. Its still sucks. Then what else sucks is I'll be short staffed till I can hire and train a replacement - which usually takes months.

Lew Barrett
01-02-2010, 06:39 PM
In respect to procedure, the problem for small business people is that there are precious few places to learn how to let people go for a small business person, and the less practice you have, the better.

Bill and I see this problem in much the same way. In my life, I learned to put off firing people either until they quit or the issue became something I couldn't live with anymore. There is simply no easy out for companies where the boss is also the paymaster, the trainer, the main salesperson and the HR person.

Big companies have departments to deal with this sort of problem. Small companies like Paul's (or mine) provide no shelter or umbrage and once you get it in your head that an employee is not productive, it's very hard to go back.

The end of the story is that it's harder to manage a small company than a big one. I have nothing but respect for people who successfully run small enterprises. It's the hardest job there is.

Memphis Mike
01-02-2010, 06:49 PM
Mike, he's a former self employed subcontractor from the construction industry - I figure he's had his ass chewed before - that's not my management style though. I hired him a year and half ago when the construction bubble burst. He's had written and verbal warnings - those are State of Alabama law with regards to unemployment compensation mediation. I won't contest him filing for unemployment regardless. I've got cause to let him go, he just won't change what I've asked him to change. Its still sucks. Then what else sucks is I'll be short staffed till I can hire and train a replacement - which usually takes months.

There are a lot of our friends from south of the border that need work. You shouldn't have any problem. They work real cheap too. You can probably hire one of them to work sixteen hours a day for half the price you got this guy for but they do take siestas. That might be something you can't live with.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
01-02-2010, 07:03 PM
I've fired myself on a couple of occasions, but I haven't been fired from a job since ..hmmm 1977.

bobbys
01-02-2010, 07:06 PM
Paul i feel for you and it shows a good side of you in that your concerned for others.

When i worked as a union carpenter i was surprised at the cheerfulness this task was often taken upon by the Boss Man.

In fact throughout my whole career Union or Non Union i never saw a whole lot of compassion.

However most jobs were of limited time and the Axe falls sooner or later.

Having my own Company i have laid off Dozens of workers.

I would say 99 percent knew it was coming and 90 percent were not very upset about it , In fact relieved.

Most all were told they were hired on a job by job basis .

I Always told them they were great but there was a lack of work Even though i lied a bit.

I always figured someone had 20years to raise this person i cannot change them in a few weeks..

Had a few walk away leaving me in a pinch to if they were offered a nickel more..

In fact there response was to laugh if i had a roof opened up and not enough help.

Theres that side of the coin to

botebum
01-02-2010, 07:08 PM
I need a job and may be willing to relocate if the price is right. PM for resume;)

Doug

John Smith
01-02-2010, 07:08 PM
I guess you've got to do what you've got to do.

I've never been an employer, but I've always been of the opinion that, over time, employees develop knowledge and skills which makes it even more difficult to decide to let one go.

Strange thing is, as one who always, if I finished my task, asked the boss what she'd like me to do next, or, if the boss wasn't on the floor, just looked around and found something still not done that I had the skills to do. I cannot imagine not doing that.

Then, it takes all kinds.

Reminds me of a MAD magzine cartoon. First square was stock boy looking forward to having his manager's job. Next square was his manager, looking forward to having HIS boss's job, etc....until we get to the company president who's so unhappy and stressed out that he wishes he was stock boy again.

brad9798
01-02-2010, 07:32 PM
I gotta fire somebody this week. It sucks! I hate doing it!

That SUCKS!

Worst part about running a company, IMO!

No legitimate person takes pleasure in this task ... well, unless an employee is caught stealing, or something like that!

I am sorry you have to do this, Paul!!!

:(

Katherine
01-02-2010, 08:04 PM
I've fired myself on a couple of occasions, but I haven't been fired from a job since ..hmmm 1977.I was born in 1977:eek:

Hwyl
01-02-2010, 08:09 PM
I was born in 1977:eek:
You look much younger than that, I thought you were mature for your age.

Mrleft8
01-02-2010, 08:26 PM
I was born in 1977:eek:

This explains your attraction to John Belush......... Er..... Paul...;):D

Tom Galyen
01-02-2010, 08:33 PM
If I may post on behalf of your other employees. They most likely won't miss him, and will only wonder why you didn't do it sooner. We had one of those where I work and he finally retired last July leaving us short a technician. However we are now getting more work done because we don't have to wait around to see what this loser was going to do or not going to do. He would not communicate to anyone else what he was working on, and if you did something he was planning on doing then he would just do nothing. In his spare time he stabbed each co-worker in the back as viciously as he could and as often as he could, as he wanted to be lead technician (a position we don't have) and figured that was the way to get what he wanted. He was so disliked by his coworkers that when he left the money collected for his retirement was not enough to buy a card, and this from 38 workers.

Our main concern was why the company did not get rid of this worker from Hell years ago. His last project was to install and program some control gear in a unit that was not going to be used until now, and we found out the wiring and programming were so screwed up that when the operator would try to change the temperature set point it would cause the gas alarm to go off. If there were a way to take back a lump sum retirement I think the company should do it, with extra for all the pain he caused over his years of employment.

What I'm trying to say is your other employees may thank you for getting rid of a debit that is causing them more work.

Rich VanValkenburg
01-02-2010, 08:43 PM
Let me understand this--

- he's absolutely reliable:
- he never misses a day of work
- he's always on time.
- he'll do anything that you ask him, to about 90% of satisfaction
- he sits down until given another set of tasks.
- he's not a 'team player'. (see below)

Years ago I was relegated to finding my own way at a well-known toilet seat company. The boss wanted his mark made and to heck with me. So I did what I could and pissed him off for being able to find enough work to keep me busy for 8 years on my own initiative. So much for the 'team' way of thinking. I was laid off for being stuck on a Federal jury for three months, even though I worked every day after jury duty until I couldn';t think anymore. I was even told that was the reason!! He sat there and said 'Prove I said it'. The job was in IT. So, I have a 'be careful' attitude about the people I work for.

In light of the 'problems' above, what I would do is overload him, not fire him. Some people just don't want to lead, they've been ambushed before. They just become working machines.

You can dismiss all the good you see in him and set him adrift, or treat him like he's your machine. You may wind up getting a replacement that schedules sick days months in advance. I've seen that happen!

paul oman
01-02-2010, 09:07 PM
most of us, (I suspect) have been fired before. Many great people have been fired and many use it as a stepping stone to better things.

Saltiguy
01-02-2010, 09:22 PM
I owned a company in Connecticut for over 30 years. The bane of my existence was the Unemployment Compensation Code. The normal "contribution" rate for employers is 1-1/2 percent of payroll, but if even one person collects on the account, the rate jumps to 7 percent of payroll, plus special assessments they make from time to time.
The base "payroll" figure used includes the owners (who will never collect), so in a small company, the system is extremely punitive.
Let's say the gross payroll is 400K and half of that is going to the owners. The "contribution" is 1-1/2 percent which is $6000 annually. Let's say I go for 10 years without anyone collecting, but then I have a claim from a former employee. Immediatly, my "contribution" jumps to 7 percent ( $28,000!!!) and will drop down by only 1/2 percent per year IF I don't have any more claims! ( 2nd year, $26,000, 3rd year - $24,000, etc) For a small company, this is brutal.
Now the worst part is that it's just about impossible to fire anyone and prevent them from collecting. The entire system favors the employee. The only "just cause" for discharge is what they call "willfull misconduct" which in the interpretation given in hearings must be felonious in nature, such as physical assault.
The State encourages EVERYONE to submit a claim and the system will do just about anything to help an employee collect.
Under the law, a claimant is supposed to be looking for work and available for work, but loafing while collecting or working under the table is ignored by the state.
Firing someone for cronic absenteeism, insolence, poor performance, alcohol and drug use, agressive, obsene or dangerous behavior and preventing them from collecting benefits is just about impossible. Almost for sure, they will prevail in a hearing.
The last guy we fought before I retired was a drug and alcohol abuser, a decent worker, but you never knew if he would show up. We gave him every chance over a period of 2 years. We even sent him to detox and rehab. Finally, one day he never showed up and about a week later he called to ask if he could pick up his check. When he came in, we had a friendly meeting, I had him sign a statement that his medical insurance would switch to COBRA and that he had left the company voluntarily. I wished him well. About 2 weeks later, we received a claim notice form the Dept of Labor that he had filed for unemployment claiming he had left because of "working conditions". This led to a series of formal hearings where we presented a mountain of evidence of absenteeism, failure to call, failure to show up, and of course, his signed statement that he had left voluntarily. I even had employees testify against him - something they volunteered to do because they were fed up with the guy. I could write a book about this, but long story short, we "won" every hearing, only to have him appeal and seek benefits for another reason. They let him do it. Finally, we wore him out. After that, he made a complaint to OSHA just for spite and for no real reason. Nevertheless, it cost us $12,000 just to get OSHA out of our hair.
That's just one story - I've got others, just as bad.
Unemployment Comp is a good thing when it is used to help deserving people get through periods of unemployment, but in Connecticut, the abuse of the system and the burden placed on employers is ridiculous.

High C
01-02-2010, 09:34 PM
.....The last guy we fought before I retired was a drug and alcohol abuser, a good worker, but you never knew if he would show up. We gave him every chance over a period of 2 years. We even sent him to detox and rehab. Finally, one day he never showed up and about a week later he called to ask if he could pick up his check. Whe he came in, we had a friendly meeting, I had him sign a statement that his medical insurance would switch to COBRA and that he had left voluntarily. I wished him well. About 2 weeks later, I received a claim notice form the Dept of Labor that he had filed for unemployment claiming he had left because of "working conditions". This led to a series of formal hearings where we presented a mountain of evidence of absenteeism, failure to call, failure to show up, and of course, his signed statement that he had left voluntarily. I even had employees testify against him - something they volunteered to do because they were fed up with the guy. I could write a book about this, but long story short, we "won" every hearing, only to have him appeal and seek benefits for another reason. They let him do it. Finally, we wore him out. After that, he made a complaint to OSHA just for spite and for no real reason. Nevertheless, it cost us $12,000 to get OSHA out of our hair.
That's just one story - I've got others, just as bad.
Unemployment Comp is a good thing when it is used to help deserving people get through periods of unemployment, but in Connecticut, the abuse of the system and the burden placed on employers is ridiculous.

...and some wonder why employers are fleeing the US to do business elsewhere.

contented
01-02-2010, 10:11 PM
just go with the "I shoulda done it a while ago" it's natural not to be comfortable or pleased to do it. when you tell a man not to come in late, or to come to you the minute he's done with a task, which only makes you both look good and he resists, it's not on you.

in the short term, i found the easiest way around this is to walk him to his vehicle on the day before payday with a full check in your pocket and tell him he doesn't have to come in the following day. he'll understand the whys and wherefores and ease away with no angst and the rest of your crew will admire you for it.

bobbys
01-02-2010, 10:24 PM
Some companies have 2 security guards come to your desk with a box , Tell you to fill it and escort you out the building.

sdowney717
01-03-2010, 07:31 AM
perhaps cut his pay back to the level you think he is worth.
a loner on the job and does not fit with the crew or work well with others is not good.

John Smith
01-03-2010, 08:05 AM
I have to think it depends on the type of work, as well.

I worked as a clerk in the Post Office, and can remember speaking on behalf of the carriers once in a while.

Management went out checking on carriers, which I found strange. Every carrier had a large number of people/businesses to which he delivered mail daily. They had no problem picking up the phone if the letter carrier arrived excessivly late, delivered the wrong mail, etc.......

Always seemed to me that if they had a carrier delivering mail to his route and had no customers complaining, they were ahead of the game.

When I first came to the Post Office, I was assigned helping with the outgoing Parcel Post section in the basement. We had bags for parcels for each state, and management had them arranged alphabetically.

As just two of us, the primary single worker there, and I as his part time helper, worked the system, I asked him if we couldn't just do like typewriter keys, and move the states that get the most action to the front row. He liked that idea, so we did it, and the job went MUCH faster. So much faster, my help was no longer needed except in his absence, so I got assigned to another job.

A postal inspector and a manager happened to walk downstairs and find Bill relaxing. Postal inspectors commented that Bill ought to be doing something else, and the manager said to the postal inspector, "This is the first guy who's kept this job current in 30 years. Let's leave him alone."

BrianW
01-03-2010, 09:36 AM
Paul,

You're not firing him. You're "releasing him to industry."

Much nicer.

Maybe you can get him a job with a competitor? ;)

Paul Pless
01-04-2010, 02:43 PM
So... who are you really?:rolleyes:

OconeePirate
01-04-2010, 02:51 PM
Last time I got fired the people I was working for took out a restraining order on me. I showed up for work and was told I wasn't even allowed on the property. LOL.

Paul Pless
01-04-2010, 04:45 PM
Not too worried here Canola... although you probably are giving good generic advice. I haven't done anything wrong posting here. I haven't slandered or defamed or even named the individual, nor have I been specific to the cause. My reasons for the termination are well documented and we have a legal binding employment contract in force at the time of his hiring, which covers the termination. As others have said I think resolving this issue may actually be a moral boost to most of my staff. And my business internet presence may not be as easily 'google-able' as you might think.

Mrleft8
01-04-2010, 05:31 PM
Grease ball....... Sounds like a bulb of oil....... Congealed......

rbgarr
01-04-2010, 08:57 PM
Paul,

Will the employee be eligible for COBRA continuation on any group health insurance and the associated federal subsidy? If so, be sure to get him the proper paperwork within the month. Not doing so can lead to uh... "unfortunate developments" involving the State Department of Labor. (damhikt)

The Bigfella
01-04-2010, 09:06 PM
I tend to agree with Canola. I'd delete it Paul. I've seen it happen.

The Bigfella
01-04-2010, 09:17 PM
btw... Paul. It doesn't take an hour. I just tried it... going the other way and it took me 20 seconds.

If any of the staff have seen you browsing the web, if you've left the 'puter on, etc... they'll know where you post.

I've had to deal with some sicko employees and ex-employees over the years... including a one-armed stalker (he was stalking a manager of mine and it nearly sent her around the twist). btw... he'd never even met her, or me... he was just a disgruntled employee from years gone by.

I dunno who Canola is, but his suggestions are spot on.

brad9798
01-07-2010, 12:42 AM
I dunno who Canola is, but his suggestions are spot on.

Sorry, Ian ... they are spot on for business owners that are afraid/have done something wrong ...

Paul has done NOTHING wrong ...

Ghosts like 'canola' are all hot air ...

PM me Paul, if you'd like!

B_B
01-07-2010, 10:45 PM
The occupancy laws work against a landlord. Thus, I do/did most of my dealings outside of the 'law!' I find it to be quicker, more effective, and waaaaaaaaaay better than letting the courts allow squaters for months at a time.


A typical visit would be me letting myself in ... "oops, I thought you had moved out!" They would yell and cuss at me ... but I knew they were there anyway!

Well, we know where brad (http://woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=102849&highlight=renter) stands re. actionable actions and bragging about them on the Internet!

Canolaboy seems to have a point, IMVHO.

brad9798
01-08-2010, 12:29 AM
EXACTLY, Braam ...

I still stand by those posts ... my reputation precedes me, I guess ... I will not cower from that (reputation).

Why bring up something that has nothing to do with this thread ... something from MONTHS ago?

BTW- I still run things the same (VERY successful) way.

Why have you a problem with it?

Just curious?

Do you 'work' your landlord(s)? [IF you even have a landlord] ... or, are you a squatter?

OR- better yet, do own apartment buildings?

IF you do not own them, you should stop trying to stir trouble and shut the hell up ... as you have NO IDEA about what you judge/speak!!!

Again, Braam ... I am very consistent in my approach!!!

:)

brad9798
01-08-2010, 12:32 AM
BTW- not bragging ... simply secretly telling other landlords that the system supports turds ... and how to get around worthless system!

B_B
01-08-2010, 05:32 PM
Do you 'work' your landlord(s)? [IF you even have a landlord] ... or, are you a squatter?
This speaks volumes about you, and what it says isn't very complimentary.


OR- better yet, do own apartment buildings?

IF you do not own them, you should stop trying to stir trouble and shut the hell up ... as you have NO IDEA about what you judge/speak!!!

:)
Spouse and I own three rental units (one for a 1/3 of my life) and have managed others. Both my parents and my in-laws own rental property. None of us has ever felt the need to break and enter at any point, whether we were owed money or not. I've also never felt the need to intimidate or threaten. Were a landlord to attempt any one of these three with me, would result in them going to jail. And I'd expect nothing less from my tenants.


Why bring up something that has nothing to do with this thread ... something from MONTHS ago?
...
Why have you a problem with it?
Just curious?
I brought it up because it's indicative of the quality of advice you offer in regard to how to interact with people - a quality, by the way, Pless has already commented on - and which may serve him well not to emulate.
Slumlord?

Memphis Mike
01-08-2010, 07:01 PM
BTW- not bragging ... simply secretly telling other landlords that the system supports turds ... and how to get around worthless system!

I bet you run one of those projects in the Hood that has all the windows bashed out.

BrianW
01-08-2010, 07:06 PM
Landlords are bashing out windows in Memphis?

S/V Laura Ellen
01-08-2010, 09:00 PM
There are two things that kept me awake at night when I managed a department. The first was that an employee would be injured (or worse) while on the job. The other was that I would have to end the employment of an employee (not due to performance or behavioural issues).

For the 20 years that I managed a department, I never had to face the first of my reasons for sleepless nights. The occasions that I had to face the second reason, really took a toll.

Lew Barrett
01-08-2010, 09:17 PM
No kidding, Allan. I'm with you there.

It's very simple, really. For the small entrepreneur, nothing is as difficult to manage as the "employee question." Few of us are really good at HR issues, and almost never does HR represent the bulk of our strengths in a given business. And as a rule, I hired some very talented people and it was still a great challenge in the end!

I count the things I leaned about dealing with employees over the last thirty years as among the most valuable data of the entire experience. Most of my lessons have come to late to help me, but if I do it again, and that's not out of the question, what I learned about "firing and hiring" will be invaluable. Most of course, learned by error:rolleyes:

brad9798
01-08-2010, 11:10 PM
I brought it up because it's indicative of the quality of advice you offer in regard to how to interact with people - a quality, by the way, Pless has already commented on - and which may serve him well not to emulate.

Sorry, Braam ... Paul knows I am no slumlord ... his post was made in jest!

You, of course, have no clue about me either ... but your big mouth and assumptions (remember that old saying about assuming?) has made you look rather silly.

Three rental units?

WOW!

JUMP BACK now, you must know EVERYTHING about the biz! :D :rolleyes:

I will bend the rules in extreme situations ...

I am glad you have been so fortunate to OBVIOUSLY NEVER have had a problem collecting rent ... especially in this economy.

Perhaps I should have YOU screen my tenants from here forward.

Based on your track record, are you willing to screen for me?

I certainly will pay you $150 per background check/search.

Like I've said before: 20% of folks from ANY walk of life will not pay rent!

When that happens, I deal with it my way!


Were a landlord to attempt any one of these three with me, would result in them going to jail.

REALLY ... who are you kidding? Never mind, you don't run enough units to understand.

So let's leave it at that ... my experience is far greater than yours ... thus, I have learned/been involved in WAY more situations than you.

Judge not about what you have NO understanding!

The buildings I own range from two (2) to 48 units ...

Please do not insinuate what you know about me or how I do business.

And do not EVER attempt to judge me ... because you are weekend landlord means nothing to someone that has a full-time staff to handle things.
___________________________________

I bet you run one of those projects in the Hood that has all the windows bashed out.

Why would I own something without windows ... Great attempt at humor, Memphis ...

Think about it: What good would that do me? :rolleyes:

brad9798
01-08-2010, 11:14 PM
BTW, Braam ... you must have missed my earlier post on this thread when I said:


That SUCKS!

Worst part about running a company, IMO!

No legitimate person takes pleasure in this task ... well, unless an employee is caught stealing, or something like that!

I am sorry you have to do this, Paul!!!

B_B
01-09-2010, 11:57 PM
but your big mouth and assumptions (remember that old saying about assuming?) has made you look rather silly.who is making assumptions?:


Do you 'work' your landlord(s)? [IF you even have a landlord] ... or, are you a squatter?

OR- better yet, do own apartment buildings?

IF you do not own them, you should stop trying to stir trouble and shut the hell up It may surprise you, but really, the only way I'm looking silly here is by engaging you. Right, I should shut the hell up.


Three rental units?

WOW!

JUMP BACK now, you must know EVERYTHING about the biz! :D :rolleyes:
Nope, but I know enough about EVERY biz to know that habitually and knowingly breaking the law is not the best method of operation.
Bragging about it on the Internet is just plain stupid.


I will bend the rules in extreme situations ...
Entering, trespassing, threatening and intimidating are not 'bending' the rules. They're breaking them.

Were I an enterprising, lawyer living in Buttflick USA or wherever you live, reading your bragging here about skirting and breaking the law, I'd in a heartbeat, go beating on doors of rental units you own looking for disgruntled tenants.

A jury wouldn't need much convincing that you are guilty, based on your posts here, regardless of what you actually do, or did say to them.

A Couple I know are living rent free for a year because they had a jackass landlord and they took him to court. It's costing the idiot well over $35,000. Of course to a big talker like you $35,000 is chump change.


Perhaps I should have YOU screen my tenants from here forward.

Based on your track record, are you willing to screen for me?

You couldn't afford my standard daily rates. I also charge a 20% Jackass Premium for working for, or with, jerks.



REALLY ... who are you kidding? Never mind, you don't run enough units to understand.
Don't need to run any units to understand the law. Whether we like it or not, its the law. Its there to protect society from dimwits, and dimwits from society.



Were a landlord to attempt any one of these three with me, would result in them going to jail.
REALLY ... who are you kidding?
Absolutely. Any landlord shows up in my unit without notice, invitation, or damned good reason I'd call the cops for trespass. Been there done that sold the T-shirt. Do it again. Sued the f@c!er too. Won. Do that again too.

Your sense of entitlement is just that, a sense. It has no basis in law.


Judge not about what you have NO understanding!

The buildings I own range from two (2) to 48 units ...

Please do not insinuate what you know about me or how I do business.

And do not EVER attempt to judge me ... because you are weekend landlord means nothing to someone that has a full-time staff to handle things.
Ain't judging anything other than what you post. And you post crap. Your advice regarding tenants is crap and your advice regarding terminating employees is crap.

Do as you will.

brad9798
01-10-2010, 12:16 AM
You couldn't afford my standard daily rates. I also charge a 20% Jackass Premium for working for, or with, jerks.

You REALLY think I could not afford your per diem? :rolleyes: Your per diem is CHUMP CHANGE, Braam. Don't believe me? Ask around.
__________________________________


and your advice regarding terminating employees is crap.

Tell me why? Seriously ... it is a terrible predicament ... why I am wrong. Please quote me!!! PLEASE!!!

What I posted is clearly the compassionate way ... #67 (in response to you!)
__________________________________

You obviously live in Canada, ehhhhh? ;)

RELAX!

Do you really think I would take this course of action for someone NOT six months behind in rent?

DO YOU?

DO YOU?

Get the f-ck over your high and mighty self ...

Regardless of what you think ... all of my buildings/complexes are profitable ...

I really do not give a sh*t about what you think ... you don't know enough about the biz to preach about tenant's rights ... etc. You have three rentals ... I have hundreds ...

Have been to court hundreds of times over the past 20 years ... do not dare tell me how the law is in the US ... or how your three units dictate the rest of the world!

;)

B_B
01-10-2010, 12:34 AM
You REALLY think I could not afford your per diem? Your per diem is CHUMP CHANGE, Braam. Don't believe me? Ask around.
Again, who keeps making assumptions? Have you asked around?


Do you really think I would take this course of action for someone NOT six months behind in rent?

DO YOU?

DO YOU?

Get the f-ck over your high and mighty self ...
You let people get 6 months behind in rent?
Man, I thought I was generous when I gave them 48 hrs notice.



Regardless of what you think ... all of my buildings/complexes are profitable ...
Irrelevant. Nice to hear if I was that hungry lawyer I was talking about, but irrelevant to a discussion about breaking, entering, trespassing, intimidating and threatening tenants.



I really do not give a sh*t about what you think ... you don't know enough about the biz to preach about tenant's rights ... etc. You have three rentals ... I have hundreds ...

Have been to court hundreds of times over the past 20 years ... do not dare tell me how the law is in the US ... or how your three units dictate the rest of the world!
;)
In Buttflick USA, or wherever you live, they have different laws for owners of 123 units v. 3 units? Really? You may want to check with a lawyer about that.

And the only time I've been to court re. tenants issues is when I successfully sued my landlord (well, he settled, but its a victory in my small mind). And I'd do it again. Jerk landlords need a kick in the crotch as often as possible.

Your "mine is bigger than yours is" argument is, ahh, so brad9798 like. One may have wished for more, but alas. You swing the club you've got, not the one you'd like, eh?

Good luck with that. :eek:

brad9798
01-10-2010, 12:45 AM
I don't worry about slimy lawyers ... regardless of what you may think.

Hmmm ... I give six months ... you give 48 hours and you are TRYING to call ME out on things?

Again ... get the eff over yourself!

ROTFLMAO!

So, Hay River ... in the NORTHWEST TERRITORIES is somehow better than 'buttflick USA?"

What does this 'mine is bigger than yours' argument have to do with anything besides your insecurity?? :confused:

Seriously, I do not get it!

Easy, Jack London!!! ;)

B_B
01-10-2010, 12:47 AM
and your advice regarding terminating employees is crap.
Tell me why? Seriously ... it is a terrible predicament ... why I am wrong. Please quote me!!! PLEASE!!!

What I posted is clearly the compassionate way ... #67 (in response to you!)
To bring this back to the thread at hand:




I dunno who Canola is, but his suggestions are spot on.
Sorry, Ian ... they are spot on for business owners that are afraid/have done something wrong ...

Paul has done NOTHING wrong ...

Ghosts like 'canola' are all hot air ...

PM me Paul, if you'd like!
Both CanolaBoy and Bigfella have good advice. Advice borne from years of experience. Sound advice that any lawyer or HR professional would agree with.

Your assertion that their advice is only for 'those who have done something wrong' and is 'hot air' is completely and compellingly incorrect.

Sure bullyboy tactics works a lot of the time. Might even work for 20 plus years. But when it comes to bite you in the ass, and it will, it will bite pretty damned hard.

Much more intelligent to follow CanolaBoy's advice, echoed by Bigfella, than your small time, two bit, trailer trash advice.

I kinda like Paul Pless and I don't wish him the fate I foresee for you.

Do as you will.

brad9798
01-10-2010, 12:47 AM
By the way ... it's 123 BUILDINGS ... ranging from two to 48 units ...

NOT simply 123 units.

But, of course, that number (in the hundreds) is beyond your scope!

;)

brad9798
01-10-2010, 12:49 AM
I consider Paul a friend ... it is YOU that completely MISrepresented what I posted on Paul's thread ... it is you that is being dishonest about it.

B_B
01-10-2010, 12:51 AM
Hmmm ... I give six months ... you give 48 hours and you are TRYING to call ME out on things?

Again ... get the eff over yourself!

ROTFLMAO!
It's about legality.
You give them six months free rent, then break into their house and try to intimidate them.

I, knowing the law, give them a chance to pay the rent, if they don't I file a grievance and they have 48 hrs to vacate.

It's legal my way.

Your advice to follow what you do is stupid. Give them 6 months rent, then break into their house, trespass, and try to intimidate them?

Yep, sound advice. :rolleyes:

brad9798
01-10-2010, 12:53 AM
your small time, two bit, trailer trash advice.

Sounds like you are the one with the issues/problems ... sorry to hear this.

I own properties on multiple continents ... you do not want to be so stupid as to accuse me of 'trailer trash' advice. You have no clue about me.

Brad is out of this discussion for the night.

Braam ... I am very confident that you are a good man in a good situation.

Let's not make this any more personal!

Best wishes to you, sir!

Brad

brad9798
01-10-2010, 12:55 AM
You give them six months free rent, then break into their house and try to intimidate them.

That's NOT what I said, douche bag.

brad9798
01-10-2010, 12:56 AM
Your advice to follow what you do is stupid. Give them 6 months rent, then break into their house, trespass, and try to intimidate them?

I did not say this either ...

Why are you being such a LIAR about what I post?

What is wrong with you?

I just don't get it!

:(

B_B
01-10-2010, 12:57 AM
it is YOU that completely MISrepresented what I posted on Paul's thread ... it is you that is being dishonest about it.
what did I misrepresent?
You said what Canola and Bigfella said was not pertinent.
It was.

There is no misrepresentation.

What they said was compellingly pertinent. And correct.


By the way ... it's 123 BUILDINGS ... ranging from two to 48 units ...

NOT simply 123 units.

But, of course, that number (in the hundreds) is beyond your scope!
I have been resoundingly defeated. I am completely beyond awe. I may have had a point did you only own 123 units, but now that we know you own 123 BUILDINGS!!! I will bow to your experience, your intellect, your resourcefulness and your advice. :rolleyes:

brad9798
01-10-2010, 01:03 AM
And you should ... punk.

Why do folks with little experience try to act they KNOW IT ALL!?!

:confused:

Go to bed, Braam ... you cannot win this argument ...

Good night ...

Paul Girouard
01-10-2010, 01:04 AM
Nice to see brad found a new playmate to replace LIB-5:D

B_B
01-10-2010, 01:17 AM
Your advice to follow what you do is stupid. Give them 6 months rent, then break into their house, trespass, and try to intimidate them?

I did not say this either ...
Why are you being such a LIAR about what I post?
What is wrong with you?
I just don't get it!
:(
post # 71: "Hmmm ... I give six months ."

post # 12, Anybody here a landlord: " I do/did most of my dealings outside of the 'law!'"

post # 20, Anybody here a landlord: "A typical visit would be me letting myself in ... "oops, I thought you had moved out!" They would yell and cuss at me ... but I knew they were there anyway!"
Break and Enter, by the way.

post # 20, Anybody here a landlord:"30 days later, I'd knock on the door ... to show respect this time."
Shows you know you didn't have respect the first time - if I was a lawyer I'd love seeing the dude I was suing write this on the internet.

post # 20, Anybody here a landlord: "the conversation quickly goes to my saying: 'The next time I visit you, it will be your moving day!' "
That is a threat, particularly in combination to the following:

post #20, Anybody here a landlord: "There are a lot of hired guns out there ... no more details from me, but most Sheriff deputies are not paid too well!"
combined with the prior statement in post # 20, Anybody here a landlord: "It typically only takes one person being the example for the reputation to precede me!"
indicates that you use people on the edge of the law to get people moved out - if you rely on a reputation for doing so it is called threat and intimidation. Ask your lawyer.

If I've misunderstood your posts I apologize, but they seem quite on the edge of civility and beyond the edge of legality from where I stand. I'd never try that crap with my tenants primarily because I respect them too much. Even the idiots(and there have been a few). And to be honest no-one that I have ever given 48 hrs notice to has balked. They know they're in the wrong. They man up. I don't need "hired guns".

B_B
01-10-2010, 01:18 AM
Nice to see brad found a new playmate to replace LIB-5:D
:D;):eek:
Leave him alone, eh, he's beyond his depth either way. :p

johnw
01-10-2010, 01:24 AM
Paul,

As a business owner who has faced similar situations before, here is my advice.
Canola bulbs is right about not posting too much about a pending or recent firing.
Even though it is emotionally wrenching to have to do it, keep it bottled up inside, :) or share it with a person you trust to give you good business advice, and can keep a secret.

In my experience most of the time when I have begun thinking about firing a person and have given them reprieves and extra chances, I later regretted not firing them sooner. Often those who are not performing well, are not happy with their jobs and are fine with being fired. A guy once told me he was glad to be fired, because his wife had refused to let him quit. Another time I was agonizing about having to lay a guy off at the end of the day, when he walked in and quit. (gypped himself out of unemployment)
The market for employees is too good right now for you to be putting up with one that is not vital to you and does not meet your expectations 99%. One bad apple can drag down the whole team.

While you think you'll be hurting him, he'll get on with life, and you'll have the chance to help somebody else whom you replace him with. The end result is usually that all involved are happier after the initial grieving is over.
I have been fired twice, and while I feel in both cases it was a result of improper things going on within the employing company, I am glad that I did not spend any longer at either place, and went on to bigger and better things.
Have somebody you trust with you when you fire him, don't say too much, be nice, act sad(if you're not already), just say you're sorry things didn't work out, and have his last check ready to hand to him if possible.
That's good advice. Sometimes people are just finding a way to get themselves fired, for reasons more psychological than financial. Let the fellow go, and give someone a job that values it. What you're doing is tough, and I'm one of those who has waited too long to fire someone.

And I think you might consider deleting this thread, if you feel you've gained the support and advice you wanted.

B_B
01-10-2010, 01:27 AM
And you should ... punk.

To me punk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMC0s8gl9yU) is a compliment! Thanks!

brad9798
01-10-2010, 08:50 PM
Still want to argue about what you have minimal experience?

Still want to act like you know about which you are speaking?

I can tell you this ... the LAW is corrupt ... all the way through, especially with regard to landlord rights ...

But hopefully, you are smart enough to know that already ... and are just being and an obtuse a$$hole on this thread.

Simply stated: If you are not being an obtuse a$$hole ... you are in for a BK ... even with only three silly properties.

I could teach you so much ...

You sound so much like I did a few years back ... with my idyllic take on the world ...

brad9798
01-10-2010, 08:51 PM
You sound so much like I did a few years back

A stupid, arrogant, obnoxious, poor property manager!

:D

B_B
01-11-2010, 12:27 AM
I could teach you so much ...
Nothing I'd like to learn.

Have a good night.

The Bigfella
01-11-2010, 12:28 AM
Still want to argue about what you have minimal experience?

Still want to act like you know about which you are speaking?

I can tell you this ... the LAW is corrupt ... all the way through, especially with regard to landlord rights ...

But hopefully, you are smart enough to know that already ... and are just being and an obtuse a$$hole on this thread.

Simply stated: If you are not being an obtuse a$$hole ... you are in for a BK ... even with only three silly properties.

I could teach you so much ...

You sound so much like I did a few years back ... with my idyllic take on the world ...


Tyler... is that you?