PDA

View Full Version : Just to start the healthcare debate anew/poop in the punchbowl



coelacanth2
12-22-2009, 12:41 AM
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704398304574598130440164954.html?m od=WSJ_hpp_MIDDLENexttoWhatsNewsTop
I found this to be rather interesting. I am not a fan of this change, the bill (yes, I have read bits of it, not all, I have a job and a life) is a monstrosity, and, due to bribery, I am now subsidizing Nebraska's Medicaid. The whole thing stinks to high Heaven. If this is a Christmas present, I'd rather have coal. Some poor bugger was EMPLOYED in mining it, someone made money off transporting it, and I can still burn it to heat my home. For a while, until the CO2 thing gets to it...

bobbys
12-22-2009, 12:52 AM
If you had watched this all on Cspan you might have a better understanding of the new transparency in the making of this.

2MeterTroll
12-22-2009, 01:04 AM
cant see how its a closeted thing bobbys the bloody bills are on the net for you to read. it cant get anymore transparent than that. its up to the voters to read the bloody thing.

peb
12-22-2009, 02:53 PM
Lawmaking at its worst. Not a one major republican idea (eg tort reform, sales of inter-state insurance) included in the bill. Major legislation done strictly on party lines. All compromises were simply pork handouts to various democrats in order to get the democratic senators in-line. What a joke.

This "reform" will have to be a resounding success for the democrats to not be hurt by this with the voting public. And no-one is predicting it to be a big success, not the left or the right.

Keith Wilson
12-22-2009, 03:46 PM
. . . sales of inter-state insuranceIn that case, a damned good thing. Race to the bottom, anyone?

2MeterTroll
12-22-2009, 04:02 PM
Lawmaking at its worst. Not a one major republican idea (eg tort reform, sales of inter-state insurance) included in the bill. Major legislation done strictly on party lines. All compromises were simply pork handouts to various democrats in order to get the democratic senators in-line. What a joke.

This "reform" will have to be a resounding success for the democrats to not be hurt by this with the voting public. And no-one is predicting it to be a big success, not the left or the right.

ya horrible that no matter what the repubs wont support any reform! that they could not even be bothered to offer an alternative bill.
i say cut the fools totally out and ram real change down there throats till they defecate ink! the current health care reform bills are hash cause of trying to satisfy the repubs and bluedogs thats why its total BS. IMO the time has come to forget nice and go for blood.

Kaa
12-22-2009, 04:06 PM
i say cut the fools totally out and ram real change down there throats till they defecate ink!

The Republicans are totally cut out.


the current health care reform bills are hash cause of trying to satisfy the repubs and bluedogs thats why its total BS. IMO the time has come to forget nice and go for blood.

No one is trying to satisfy the Republicans. The bills are a mess because (among other reasons) of the need to satisfy different Democrats. And if you forget nice and go for the blood, you just don't have the votes.

Kaa

Kaa
12-22-2009, 04:07 PM
In that case, a damned good thing. Race to the bottom, anyone?

Why's that?

Kaa

2MeterTroll
12-22-2009, 04:13 PM
i been following it Kaa they still have say and they are still on the crafting group. and as i said there are some dems that need to be removed as well. any tiny bit of respect i had for both parties is gone now days. imo its high time for stalins answer to politicians; a big pit and a guy with a sharp shovel.

Kaa
12-22-2009, 04:18 PM
i been following it Kaa they still have say and they are still on the crafting group. and as i said there are some dems that need to be removed as well. any tiny bit of respect i had for both parties is gone now days. imo its high time for stalins answer to politicians; a big pit and a guy with a sharp shovel.

Oh, the Republicans certainly have their say -- it's just that their say is meaningless and both parties know it well.

As to Stalin, you seem to be a bit confused. The big pit was his answer to the masses, not to the politicians (at least not ones which were good at saying Sir, Yes Sir!)

Kaa

Keith Wilson
12-22-2009, 04:37 PM
Why's that?The problem with treating health care as a normal market is that millions of people need health care that they can't possibly afford, either because they’re poor, or because they have a serious disease requiring expensive treatment, or just because they're old. The only way to make it work is to have richer and healthier people pay for the care of the poorer and sicker. This is how insurance works (the healthy pay for the care of the sick), this is how Medicare works (the young pay for the care of the old), this is how every tax-supported heath care plan works (everybody pays, and the sick get care)

Right now, states require insurance to cover certain minimum services. This is also a subsidy from the healthy to the sick, since young healthy people have to buy insurance that would pay for care they probably won’t need, at least in the short term. There are significant differences in the minimum requirements between states. Insurance across state lines without uniform minimum standards creates an incentive for states to attract insurance companies by offering loose requirements, and the healthy will follow in search of inexpensive insurance. So young healthy people buy cheap minimal plans with other young healthy people. Great idea.

I'll have to look at the bill in more detail. It doesn't seem nearly as bad as I thought after a first pass (how's that for a ringing endorsement). There is a lot less there than I had hoped, but it seems considerably better than nothing. It will be interesting to see what happens during reconciliation; the House bill is quite different. No filibuster during reconciliation, remember, so they only need 50 senators..

Kaa
12-22-2009, 04:51 PM
Great idea.

:-)

My problem is that what you want is for the young and healthy to pay "extra" money into the health-insurance piggy bank for things they don't really need. Fine. I understand that financing health care is based on the idea that the rich and healthy pay for the poor and the sick.

But are you sure that segmenting the health insurance market into 50 isolated sub-markets is a good way to achieve your goal?

And leaving the health insurers (with zero to little competition) in charge of that piggy bank into which it will be illegal not to deposit money seems like a really bad idea to me. If you're more or less explicitly forbidding market competition, what's the point in the existence of the health insurance companies at all? Where will the pressure to keep them lean and efficient come from? Government bureaucrats?? You're just setting up the stage for massive corruption and government-guaranteed profits.

Kaa

Keith Wilson
12-22-2009, 04:57 PM
But are you sure that segmenting the health insurance market into 50 isolated sub-markets is a good way to achieve your goal?No. I favor a single-payer system, but that doesn't appear to be politically feasible. I'll take small improvements if I can't get big ones. But opening up the insurance market across state lines without other major changes would not be an improvement.
I understand that financing health care is based on the idea that the rich and healthy pay for the poor and the sick.Excellent! I hope everybody eventually understands this.

Kaa
12-22-2009, 05:07 PM
I'll take small improvements if I can't get big ones.

You're more optimistic than I am. I don't regard the current bill(s) as small improvements. I regard it as a non-solution which will establish two dangerous perceptions:

(a) that health-care reform is "done" and we don't need to worry about it for a long time to come;

(b) that health-care reform is a politically poisonous swamp full of sinkholes and alligators, and that it's much better to stay away from it as far as possible.
We had a military-industrial complex sucking in money and power for quite a while.

Not too long ago we acquired a law-enforcement/prison-industrial complex that is also quite adept at sucking in more money and more power.

I worry we're setting up a health-insurance/pharma/medical-industrial complex which will join the club and add its own suction and suckage.

Kaa

Keith Wilson
12-22-2009, 05:16 PM
. . . which will establish two dangerous perceptions: that health-care reform is "done" and we don't need to worry about it for a long time to come;I think it will shortly become very obvious that this is false.
that health-care reform is a politically poisonous swamp full of sinkholes and alligators, and that it's much better to stay away from it as far as possible.This may or may not be true, but it's independent of which bill, if any, they manage to pass.

John Smith
12-22-2009, 05:40 PM
Lawmaking at its worst. Not a one major republican idea (eg tort reform, sales of inter-state insurance) included in the bill. Major legislation done strictly on party lines. All compromises were simply pork handouts to various democrats in order to get the democratic senators in-line. What a joke.

This "reform" will have to be a resounding success for the democrats to not be hurt by this with the voting public. And no-one is predicting it to be a big success, not the left or the right.
That's not exactly true; Republican were equal numbers on the Finance Committee and had a great deal of input.

Let's not jump the gun. We don't have a bill. We have a senate version and a house version that are quite different. Anything can happen in conference, and whatever comes out of conference will be the bill. It may or may not be open for ammendments in the house or senate, depending upon what is decided in each.

I called both my democratic senators today and voiced my opinion that if a bill passes that does not show any benefits of it passing to the public, the dems will be held accountable. On the other hand, if a really good bill that 60 - 70% of the public likes comes out of conference, and it is blocked, the public anger will be aimed at those who block it.

I'd point out that Obama, yesterday, was coming around to supporting re-importing of drugs. The Nebraska deal may face a legal challenge, and it seems Nelson is backing down.

I can't tell if the people like Maxine Waters are fudging on whether or not they'll support the senate version is actually because they are considering it, or if it's designed to motivate those progressive groups that don't like the senate bill.

Ultimately, my math, which may be wrong, depending upon how hard fast the left is, tells me it will be easier to get 60 votes in the senate for a strong bill than to get a majority in the house.

2MeterTroll
12-22-2009, 05:42 PM
Keath i have now read both versions. Neither is any good, neither has any lasting positive change! what good is a fight if your commanders are just going to open the city gates to the foe?

that is just what these bills currently do. unless there is something i missed this is not reform it is the whole sale selling out the population of the US.

John Smith
12-22-2009, 05:43 PM
In that case, a damned good thing. Race to the bottom, anyone?

I don't think you can ever get interstate insurance. Buying insurance across state lines comes up frequently, but no one asks the basic question:

If I live in NJ, and I buy health insurance in SC, how am I going to find a participating provider?

I'm part of the federal employee program, and the national plans are state by state.

John Smith
12-22-2009, 05:45 PM
ya horrible that no matter what the repubs wont support any reform! that they could not even be bothered to offer an alternative bill.
i say cut the fools totally out and ram real change down there throats till they defecate ink! the current health care reform bills are hash cause of trying to satisfy the repubs and bluedogs thats why its total BS. IMO the time has come to forget nice and go for blood.

I suggest you contact your reps, and the president directly (www.congress.org (http://www.congress.org)) and argue the point that a truly good bill failing will be held against those who block it. A bad bill passing will be held against the democrats.

John Smith
12-22-2009, 05:47 PM
The Republicans are totally cut out.



No one is trying to satisfy the Republicans. The bills are a mess because (among other reasons) of the need to satisfy different Democrats. And if you forget nice and go for the blood, you just don't have the votes.

Kaa
Sadly, they don't think they'd have the votes. I'd bet they would.

A strong public option and/or a Medicare buy in coming out of conference would have good support from 55 senators. Given that all senators have uninsured constituants, I think the others would have a very difficult time voting against it once it's no longer hypthetical.

John Smith
12-22-2009, 05:50 PM
:-)

My problem is that what you want is for the young and healthy to pay "extra" money into the health-insurance piggy bank for things they don't really need. Fine. I understand that financing health care is based on the idea that the rich and healthy pay for the poor and the sick.

But are you sure that segmenting the health insurance market into 50 isolated sub-markets is a good way to achieve your goal?

And leaving the health insurers (with zero to little competition) in charge of that piggy bank into which it will be illegal not to deposit money seems like a really bad idea to me. If you're more or less explicitly forbidding market competition, what's the point in the existence of the health insurance companies at all? Where will the pressure to keep them lean and efficient come from? Government bureaucrats?? You're just setting up the stage for massive corruption and government-guaranteed profits.

Kaa
That's why I wouldn't support that type of bill, and I'm hoping it wouldn't pass in the house.

I do think a bill with a strong public option would actually pass in the senate (with 60 votes or more) if such an animal actually came from conference.

John Smith
12-22-2009, 05:52 PM
You're more optimistic than I am. I don't regard the current bill(s) as small improvements. I regard it as a non-solution which will establish two dangerous perceptions:

(a) that health-care reform is "done" and we don't need to worry about it for a long time to come;

(b) that health-care reform is a politically poisonous swamp full of sinkholes and alligators, and that it's much better to stay away from it as far as possible.
We had a military-industrial complex sucking in money and power for quite a while.

Not too long ago we acquired a law-enforcement/prison-industrial complex that is also quite adept at sucking in more money and more power.

I worry we're setting up a health-insurance/pharma/medical-industrial complex which will join the club and add its own suction and suckage.

Kaa
I have trouble supporting ANY reform that continues to link health insurance to one's job. I've contacted my democratic reps and made the case that if a bill passes, it better show itself to be some improvement, or the dems will pay the price. I don't expect any re-visiting anytime soon.

Kaa
12-22-2009, 05:52 PM
That's rich. What, Obama didn't think people would check..? :D


In an interview (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/12/22/AR2009122202101_pf.html) with the Washington Post today, the president challenged all of us to comb through his 2008 campaign promises on health care. Check it out:

President Obama rejected in an interview Tuesday the criticism that he has compromised too much in order to secure health-care reform legislation, challenging his critics to identify any "gap" between what he campaigned on last year and what Congress is on the verge of passing. [...]

"Every single criteria for reform I put forward is in this bill." [...](http://reason.com/blog/2009/12/22/can-obama-open-his-mouth-witho)

Kaa

Keith Wilson
12-22-2009, 06:06 PM
That's got to be the sorriest excuse for analysis you've ever posted, Kaa. :rolleyes:

Whether you like it or not, it looks like what's gong to get passed will be pretty close to what Obama proposed during the campaign. Not 100%, but not that far off. You can check it here (http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/issues/HealthCareFullPlan.pdf) (warning - there's a lot of campagn fluff mxed in).

Kaa
12-22-2009, 06:12 PM
That's got to be the sorriest excuse for analysis you've ever posted, Kaa. :rolleyes:


No analysis so far, just observations.

Let's see...


I'm going to have all the negotiations around a big table. We'll have doctors and nurses and hospital administrators. Insurance companies, drug companies -- they'll get a seat at the table, they just won't be able to buy every chair. But what we will do is, we'll have the negotiations televised on C-SPAN, so that people can see who is making arguments on behalf of their constituents, and who are making arguments on behalf of the drug companies or the insurance companies. And so, that approach, I think is what is going to allow people to stay involved in this process.
We'll allow the safe re-importation of low-cost drugs from countries like Canada.
Allow Medicare to negotiate for cheaper drug prices.
Offers a public health insurance option to provide the uninsured and those who can't find affordable coverage with a real choice.Quotes and the sources for them are from the web page linked in my previous post.

Kaa

2MeterTroll
12-22-2009, 06:25 PM
I suggest you contact your reps, and the president directly (www.congress.org (http://www.congress.org)) and argue the point that a truly good bill failing will be held against those who block it. A bad bill passing will be held against the democrats.

John Done and done and some other things more direct.
I am to say the least, about as pissed off as i can get about the current state of affairs.

A bill that does not serve the public is no kind of reform. While i dont share Kaa's pessimism i am totally disgusted and out raged at much that has gone on in congress this last week. a bill to hammer the practices that felled the economy was quietly shot down this last week. I voted for change not just a quiet version of give the repubs what they want.
this is not an Obama thing this is a congress thing and its not funny anymore.

JBreeze
12-22-2009, 07:02 PM
Interesting video and transcript....Bill Moyers, Matt Taibbi and Robert Kuttner about politics of decision making:

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/12182009/watch.html

December 18, 2009


BILL MOYERS: Welcome to the Journal.

Something's not right here. One year after the great collapse of our financial system, Wall Street is back on top while our politicians dither. As for health care reform, you're about to be forced to buy insurance from companies whose stock is soaring, and that's just dandy with the White House.

Truth is, our capitol's being looted, republicans are acting like the town rowdies, the sheriff is firing blanks, and powerful Democrats in Congress are in cahoots with the gang that's pulling the heist. This is not capitalism at work. It's capital. Raw money, mounds of it, buying politicians and policy as if they were futures on the hog market.

Here to talk about all this are two journalists who don't pull their punches. Robert Kuttner is an economist who helped create and now co-edits the progressive magazine THE AMERICAN PROSPECT, and the author of the book OBAMA'S CHALLENGE, among others.

Also with me is Matt Taibbi, who covers politics for ROLLING STONE magazine where he is a contributing editor. He's made a name for himself writing in a no-holds-barred, often profane, but always informative and stimulating style that gets under the skin of the powerful. His most recent article is "Obama's Big Sellout," about the President's team of economic advisers and their Wall Street connections. It's been burning up the blogosphere. Welcome to both of you.

BILL MOYERS: Let's start with some news. Some of the big insurance companies, Well Point, Cigna, United Health, all surged to a 52 week high in their share prices this week when it was clear there'd be no public option in the health care bill going through Congress right now. What does that tell you, Matt?

MATT TAIBBI: Well, I think what most people should take away from this is that the massive subsidies for health insurance companies have been preserved while it's also expanded their customer base because there's an individual mandate in the bill that's going to provide all these companies with the, you know, 25 or 30 million new people who are going to be paying for health insurance. So, it's, obviously, a huge boon to that industry. And I think Wall Street correctly read what the health care effort is all about.

ROBERT KUTTNER: Rahm Emanuel, the President's Chief of Staff, was Bill Clinton's Political Director. And Rahm Emanuel's take away from Bill Clinton's failure to get health insurance passed was 'don't get on the wrong side of the insurance companies.' So their strategy was cut a deal with the insurance companies, the drug industry going in. And the deal was, we're not going to attack your customer base, we're going to subsidize a new customer base. And that script was pre-cooked so it's not surprising that this is what comes out the other side. ...

paul oman
12-22-2009, 07:12 PM
The mistake is to think the rep (and most Americans) are anti reform. They just don't want this massive version 1.0 bill. Could - should be done step by step. Like a bill controlling tort reform, or addressing pre-existing conditions.

BrianW
12-22-2009, 08:05 PM
BILL MOYERS: Welcome to the Journal...

Also with me is Matt Taibbi... ...His most recent article is "Obama's Big Sellout," about the President's team of economic advisers and their Wall Street connections. It's been burning up the blogosphere.

...

Didn't we have a thread on Matts interview???

Pretty sure it died a quick death here in the Bilge. :D

BrianW
12-22-2009, 08:07 PM
Heath Care reform, 15 years and counting...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BrianW/HillaryCare1994.jpg

:D

JBreeze
12-22-2009, 08:57 PM
Didn't we have a thread on Matts interview???

Pretty sure it died a quick death here in the Bilge. :D

I can't find the thread, but I'm sure you're right.

Hey, Matt called Government Sachs a vampire squid - that makes him O.K. in my book:D

2MeterTroll
12-22-2009, 09:32 PM
jesus jumping up and down! we said what moyer said months ago. after some of us got our glasses on and actually read the stupid thing. 0 hour and moron moyer finally says something, big whip. Ho ra mainstream media to the rescue.