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pefjr
12-19-2009, 05:45 PM
Does he deserve this honor? any honor?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_vatican_john_paul_ii

WX
12-19-2009, 05:56 PM
Well that just goes to prove that the Vatican has an odd view of reality.
Here we have a Pope who was once in the Hitler Youth wanting to make a saint out of a Pope that was sympathetic to Hitler.

botebum
12-19-2009, 06:08 PM
Makes one wonder if the self-imposed blinders will ever come off of the RCC.

Doug

Bob Cleek
12-19-2009, 06:46 PM
Well that just goes to prove that the Vatican has an odd view of reality.
Here we have a Pope who was once in the Hitler Youth wanting to make a saint out of a Pope that was sympathetic to Hitler.

No, you just don't know your history, which, thanks to the internet, is easily known.

By December 1936, HJ membership stood at just over five million. That same month, HJ membership became mandatory for Aryans, under the Gesetz über die Hitlerjugend law. This legal obligation was re-affirmed in 1939 with the Jugenddienstpflicht and HJ membership was required even when it was opposed by the member's parents. Massaquoi claims, though, that the war did not allow the law to go very far. From then on, most of Germany's teenagers belonged to the HJ. By 1940, it had eight million members. Later war figures are difficult to calculate, since massive conscription efforts and a general call-up of boys as young as ten years old meant that virtually every young male in Germany was, in some way, connected to the HJ. Only about 10 to 20% were able to avoid joining.

German children born in the 1920s and 30s became adults during the Cold War years. Since membership was compulsory after 1936, it was neither surprising nor uncommon that many senior leaders of both West and East Germany had been in the HJ. Little effort was made to blacklist political figures who had been youth members of the HJ, since many had had little choice in the matter.

The current Pope Benedict XVI had, as 14-year old Joseph Ratzinger, confessed to be a HJ member in his 1996 autobiography Salt of the Earth. However, in an May 2009 trip to Israel, Benedict's spokesman, Father Federico Lombardi told reporters that Ratzinger was never in the HJ, actually being in the Luftwaffe as an air force assistant.

Furthermore, membership in the organization did not mean support for Nazi ideologies. For instance, Hans Scholl, the brother of Sophie Scholl and one of the leading figures of the anti-Nazi resistance movement White Rose (Weiße Rose), was also a member of the Hitler Youth. This fact is emphasised in the film The White Rose which speaks of how Scholl was able to resist Nazi Germany's ideology while still serving in a Nazi organization. The Thomas Carter film Swing Kids also focuses on this topic.

While Pius XII's actions in response to the Holocaust continue to raise controversy, often inflamed by critics with other agendas, there can be no dispute that he certainly did more to materially assist Jewish refugees than any Allied leader in the same time frame and did so while living under Italian Fascist and, later, German occupation. That said, there is hardly any way one could characterize him as "sympathetic to Hitler."

Dr. Joseph Lichten, a Polish Jew who served as a diplomat and later an official of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League of B’nai B’rith, writes: "Pacelli had obviously established his position clearly, for the Fascist governments of both Italy and Germany spoke out vigorously against the possibility of his election to succeed Pius XI in March of 1939, though the cardinal secretary of state had served as papal nuncio in Germany from 1917 to 1929. . . . The day after his election, the Berlin Morgenpost said: ‘The election of cardinal Pacelli is not accepted with favor in Germany because he was always opposed to Nazism and practically determined the policies of the Vatican under his predecessor.’ "

Former Israeli diplomat and Orthodox Jewish Rabbi Pinchas Lapide states that Pius XI "had good reason to make Pacelli the architect of his anti-Nazi policy. Of the forty-four speeches which the Nuncio Pacelli had made on German soil between 1917 and 1929, at least forty contained attacks on Nazism or condemnations of Hitler’s doctrines. . . . Pacelli, who never met the Führer, called it ‘neo-Paganism.’ "

A few weeks after Pacelli was elected pope Pius XII, the German Reich’s Chief Security Service issued a then-secret report on the new Pope. Rabbi Lapide provides an excerpt:

"Pacelli has already made himself prominent by his attacks on National Socialism during his tenure as Cardinal Secretary of State, a fact which earned him the hearty approval of the Democratic States during the papal elections. . . . How much Pacelli is celebrated as an ally of the Democracies is especially emphasized in the French Press."

skuthorp
12-19-2009, 07:03 PM
His reputation is largely besmirched by the Church giving shelter to and spiriting away numbers of nazis wanted for war crimes after the war. But there is no evidence that he personally had much to di with that. But let's face it, his primary job was to ensure the survival of the Vatican state in the face of european fascism. People die anyway, and breed up quickly enough, as long as the power structure still exists the church will too.

WX
12-19-2009, 07:58 PM
The current Pope Benedict XVI had, as 14-year old Joseph Ratzinger, confessed to be a HJ member in his 1996 autobiography Salt of the Earth. However, in an May 2009 trip to Israel, Benedict's spokesman, Father Federico Lombardi told reporters that Ratzinger was never in the HJ, actually being in the Luftwaffe as an air force assistant.

So why did he claim membership? I am quite aware membership did not imply agreement with Nazi doctrine.
This is worth reading.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_resistance

Tom Galyen
12-19-2009, 10:20 PM
WX,

Nice article, especially the part on the Catholic Resistance to the Nazis. However, it is not pertinent to the discussion. You are arguing that a 14 year old boy make up his mind whether or not to support his country or his church. How many 14 year olds do you know who could side with the church against his country.

You your self may want to read the section on the Catholic resistance. Do you think the Bishop in the article could have done the actions that he did if the Pope had prevented it? Do you think the Pope was not knowledgeable of what one of his senior Bishops was doing? I think this weakens if not destroys your whole argument, as well as that of Pefjr who started this troll.

pefjr
12-20-2009, 12:11 AM
I am guilty. I confess father, I have trolled. But I caught Galyen. How many hail marys?

ahp
12-20-2009, 03:28 PM
Declining membership In Hitler Youth was not an option.

Tom Montgomery
12-20-2009, 04:24 PM
Declare all the popes saints, I say.

Glen Longino
12-20-2009, 05:24 PM
Declare all the popes saints, I say.

Why, hell yes!
And all the Nuns!
And Sam F!
Oh, you say Sam is not a Saint?
But, of course he is, if the Board says he is.:rolleyes:

WX
12-20-2009, 05:42 PM
What was the name of the Irish priest that smuggled allied POWs through the Vatican? Ah yes, Hugh O'Flaherty.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlker/scarlet.html

pefjr
12-20-2009, 06:18 PM
The Anti-Defamation League and American Jewish Committee said the move was premature given the Vatican still hasn't opened up to outside historians its secret archives from Pius' 1939-1958 pontificate. The Vatican says the 16 million files won't be ready until 2014 at the earliest.

I am a litlle curious about this. 16m??

Bob Cleek
12-20-2009, 10:46 PM
That's pretty much SOP for any government. They wait a generation or so before they open up their records to the public. The US National Archives are no different. Unfortunately, something gets lost in the translation of the Vatican's "secret" archives. The "secret" refers to "secret" as in "secretary" or "personal." The "secret" archives aren't "hidden," but rather are the personal records of the popes and the Vatican diplomatic corps and so on. They are widely accessible. They are, however, still cataloging a lot of stuff and it isn't in the "open stacks" as yet. Everything up to 1939 is available. Qualified historians have been given full access to it all. http://asv.vatican.va/en/fond/amm.htm It's one of the most extensive repositories of historical documents in the world. Check it out at: http://asv.vatican.va/home_en.htm. It's pretty interesting what all they've got in there.

Cuyahoga Chuck
12-20-2009, 11:46 PM
As a Catholic I took particular interest in a TV documentary about the how the Inquisition went after and eventually destroyed the Cathars. One of the big time inquistors from that era who handed out torture and death at the stake is on the Role of Saints today.

WX
12-20-2009, 11:52 PM
who handed out torture and death at the stake is on the Role of Saints today.

For doing God's work?

Glen Longino
12-21-2009, 12:15 AM
For doing God's work?

How about the Centurion who stuck Jesus in the side with a spear while he hung on the cross? He was mentioned in the Bible but had no name, but they call him Saint Longinus today!
There's a statue of him in Rome.
The spear of Saint Longinus is the subject of "files" and a few books and a long mythology.
It's one of thousands of Church Legends.

WX
12-21-2009, 12:21 AM
but they call him Saint Longinus today!
There's a statue of him in Rome.

That doesn't surprise me, after the Holy Catholic Church was built on the culture of the Roman Empire. So it's going to be a skewed eh? Where Christianity has surplanted a previous religion, the natives have added their culture into the Christian blend.
Don't believe me? Look at the Mexicans or the Irish.

skuthorp
12-21-2009, 01:05 AM
They're about to declare an Aussie nun a saint, medieval claptrap I say.

More about the image of the church and promotional opportunities than anything else, but the media here, in the slow xmas weeks, seems besotted.

Tom Montgomery
12-21-2009, 08:16 AM
How about the Centurion who stuck Jesus in the side with a spear while he hung on the cross? He was mentioned in the Bible but had no name, but they call him Saint Longinus today!
There's a statue of him in Rome.
The spear of Saint Longinus is the subject of "files" and a few books and a long mythology.
It's one of thousands of Church Legends.

Christianity replaced the major and minor gods of pagan polytheism with the Trinity and a gaggle of saints. It then devised a theology to explain how one is different from the other. I never tire of SammyF and his ilk explaining how praying to a saint for a miracle is different from praying to God, the Holy Ghost, or the baby Jesus for a miracle.

Speaking of the baby Jesus.... Christianity also hijacked all the pagan feast days. The baby Jesus was not born in Bethlehem on December 25th.

Merry Xmas.

Larry P.
12-21-2009, 08:31 AM
Speaking of the baby Jesus.... Christianity also hijacked all the pagan feast days. The baby Jesus was not born in Bethlehem on December 25th.


So when and where was he born. Use credible citations please.

Tom Montgomery
12-21-2009, 08:35 AM
Who knows? Certainly not you.

capt jake
12-21-2009, 08:37 AM
By most accounts, it was in the Spring, probably March.

Larry P.
12-21-2009, 08:44 AM
You are right I don't know, although I probably have explored the question more than you have. The point is that know one ones for sure and you don't know at all but you make comments for the sole purpose of denigrating the beliefs and or traditions of people of faith. You do this for no other purpose than to be nasty. Typical bilge crap.

Tom Montgomery
12-21-2009, 08:52 AM
You are right I don't know, although I probably have explored the question more you have.
I rather doubt that, Bub.


The point is that know one ones for sure and you don't know at all but you make comments for the sole purpose of denigrating the beliefs and or traditions of people of faith. You do this for no other purpose than to be nasty. Typical bilge crap.

Either point out my error or shut up. The fact of the matter is that your outraged, content-deprived, ad hominum attack is typical bilge crap.

Have a nice day. :)

Larry P.
12-21-2009, 09:02 AM
Either point out my error or shut up. The fact of the matter is that your outraged, content-deprived, ad hominum attack is typical bilge crap.


So my post is an ad-hominem attack but this isn't?

I didn't say you were in error, I said your comment was made in the spirit of meanness. So shove it.

For the record most historians believe that the "historical" Jesus was born between 3 - 7 BC probably in the spring. (March or April)

Tom Montgomery
12-21-2009, 09:06 AM
No kidding? Care to enlighten us regarding the attribution of December 25th to the baby Jesus' birth? Did they pluck that date out of thin air?

Larry P.
12-21-2009, 09:08 AM
The Emperor Constantine. Try a little research yourself oh great purveyor of history.

Tom Montgomery
12-21-2009, 09:09 AM
Citations, if you please.

Larry P.
12-21-2009, 09:27 AM
Clemens Petersen, "CONSTANTINE THE GREAT AND HIS SONS," Philip Schaff, ed., A Religious Encyclopaedia or Dictionary of Biblical, Historical, Doctrinal, and Practical Theology, 3rd edn., Vol. 1. Toronto, New York & London: Funk & Wagnalls Company, 1894.

Popeye
12-21-2009, 09:29 AM
saturday was a day of rest and

sunday was the first day of the week until some dude changed it around ..

um , so what ?

Tom Montgomery
12-21-2009, 09:42 AM
The Roman emperor Constantine died in 337. The earliest Roman evidence of a date of December 25th for Jesus' birth is in 354.

Read this and learn something:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm

Popeye
12-21-2009, 10:16 AM
The earliest Roman evidence of a date of December 25th for Jesus' birth is in 354.

nope , december 25 goes back to 4 ad , later chosen by the church as a date of observation only


The Roman emperor Constantine died in 337.

the calendar in question dates back to 336

Tom Montgomery
12-21-2009, 10:29 AM
The celebration of Sol Invictus and the birthday of Mithra had absolutely nothing to do with it! Also pay no heed to any other heretical assertions that the date of Jesus' birth was conflated with other pagan festivals! ROTFL!

I think the authors of the Catholic Encyclopedia protest too much. ;)

Popeye
12-21-2009, 11:04 AM
you are free to celebrate any pagan festival of your choosing , on or around december and january months i choose to put up a fragrant balsam fir tree with ornaments and give gifts and eat turkey .. or lamb ... with red wine

ok ? :rolleyes:

Tom Montgomery
12-21-2009, 11:13 AM
You bet!

pefjr
12-21-2009, 11:16 AM
I chose Dec 31st bout midnight, but my clan overruled me and slapped me silly and so it's the 25th Dec. again.

pefjr
12-21-2009, 01:56 PM
And for contrast, next door over in Germany, the beat goes on,

The last Nazi-era War Trial,..... maybe.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20091221/wl_nm/us_germany_demjanjuk

SamSam
12-21-2009, 04:35 PM
How about the Centurion who stuck Jesus in the side with a spear while he hung on the cross? He was mentioned in the Bible but had no name, but they call him Saint Longinus today!
There's a statue of him in Rome.
The spear of Saint Longinus is the subject of "files" and a few books and a long mythology.
It's one of thousands of Church Legends.
Longinus....Longino....Hmmmm....Is this a maneuver to get your own Popemobile or something?

purri
12-21-2009, 05:01 PM
^ nah, just a golf buggy.

WX
12-21-2009, 05:01 PM
At least it wasn't Bigus Dickus. :D:D

Tom Galyen
12-21-2009, 05:06 PM
I was raised with the Church tradition of December 25th and it is as good as any other date. However, I believe it is very possible that he was born during the feast of Trumpets which is during the Hebrew month of Tishri which corresponds to our mid September to early October. If you read up on this feast or festival you will see it is a time of reflection and atonement which could parallel our observance of Advent. Trumpets to welcome the Messiah. This is also a time of year when it is much warmer and more comfortable for travel then December in Palestine, so it is much more likely that Joseph and Mary could have made the trip to Bethlehem from Nazareth.

Actually those who say the 25th of December is a made up date are correct. They are also correct when they say that this date was chosen to give the pagans who had a celebration of the winter solstice something else to worship.

The Bible does not give the date because the date is obviously not important. The only fact is that he was born he did live and he did die and he did rise again. Just as the Old Testament Prophets said he would.

pefjr
12-21-2009, 07:03 PM
The only fact is that he was born he did live and he did die and he did rise again. Just as the Old Testament Prophets said he would.Fact? resurrection? hmmmm.....

capt jake
12-21-2009, 07:06 PM
Fact? resurrection? hmmmm.....

What? Something that Pef and I agree upon?

pefjr
12-21-2009, 07:18 PM
What? Something that Pef and I agree upon?I have agreed or have no opinion with many of your posts. You have made a big deal out of 1 or 2 differences. It's your problem, but of no concern to me.:)

Popeye
12-22-2009, 08:51 AM
christopher columbus (not his real name) was probably jewish , nobody knows his exact birth date , some of his crew were pagans

is america real ?

Seneca
12-23-2009, 01:16 PM
I believe it is generally accepted that Columbus's origins are unknown; however, it is possible that he was Jewish. His navigator was almost certainly a Marano Jew, however.

Tom Galyen
12-23-2009, 05:01 PM
Tom Montgomery,

I'll agree with you about the date of Christ's birth, however you also said that he was not born in Bethlehem. Pray tell this poor Bible student where in fact you believe he was born? Enlighten us with your knowledge, "An enquiring mind wants to know." :)

Tom Montgomery
12-23-2009, 06:41 PM
Ah Tom.... trying to change the subject? I won't bite! ;)

I stand by my statement that Jesus was not born in Bethlehem on December 25th.

By the way... Who is buried in Grant's tomb? :confused: :D

Happy Christmas!

Glen Longino
12-23-2009, 07:00 PM
Longinus....Longino....Hmmmm....Is this a maneuver to get your own Popemobile or something?

Now that you mention it, I could use a Gator with a dump bed.

paladin
12-23-2009, 08:26 PM
By the way... Who is buried in Grant's tomb?


No One....

SamSam
12-23-2009, 10:24 PM
Now that you mention it, I could use a Gator with a dump bed.
Well, times are tough in Rome, what with all the lawsuits and upkeep, but you've got my vote. Hey, it looks like Saint Longinus is from Texas! He's doing that Longhorn hand signal thing!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e3/Meister_der_Nea-Moni-Kirche_in_Chios_005.jpg/200px-Meister_der_Nea-Moni-Kirche_in_Chios_005.jpg

Popeye
12-24-2009, 08:34 AM
I stand by my statement that Jesus was not born in Bethlehem on December 25th.

neither was moses

your point being ?