Bolger's Resolution and St. Valery designs

[Joe B.]

Hey All,
I was wondering if anyone here has any leads on lines plans/drawings for Bolger's Resolution and St. Valery designs? I saw some pics of Resolution in WB a time ago and fell hard for a vessel with that kind of space with that draft. The rig didn't hurt things much either. Later I saw some pics of St. Valery and thought she might be pretty cool to have around here in St. Augie with the thin water and all. Just sold off the last vessel, it's just me and the Papillons, so I'm looking at my options. Any help would be great. Thanks!

[Rob Hazard]

Have you gotten in touch with Phil Bolger And Friends? Suzanne is still running the business. I'm sure she'd be happy to help you.
Resolution is still there in front of the house where she's been for years now, in Gloucester, on the road out to Wingaersheek Beach.

[Hwyl]

St Valery especially has been discussed on here quite a bit. A search will bring up a lot of info.

You can also go to Google advanced search and search within the forum by typing win www.woodenboat.com/forum

[Steve Paskey]

There's a writeup on Resolution in one of Bolger's books, but I can't remember which one. (It's not Boats with an Open Mind, so it's one of the out-of-print books.)

If you're interested in St. Valery, you should download a digital copy of WB issue 157. There's a detailed article by Bolger; photos and drawings; and an article about sailing the first boat built to the design.

The downloads are great: instant gratification for only $3.50 an issue. For No. 157, see: http://www.woodenboat.com/wbstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=83_89&products_id=560

[Joe B.]

Folks,
found the book with Resolution in it, "The Folding Schooner, " and have ordered a copy of it. I have followed your advice on searching the forums, but the best info anyone seems to have put up is the fact that St. Valery has a centerboard placed way forward, draws a foot with the board up, weighs about a ton, has an outboard well, flush deck, and a flat bottom. Other than a few old pics of the prototype, it's almost like the boat doesn't have a big following, which is in total opposition to how many times she gets mentioned on the forums. I've been sniffing around for a while now, and just haven't found much on her. Compared to the documentation that some of PCB's other designs have gotten, it's almost like she's a ghost.

[Steve Paskey]

Compared to the documentation that some of PCB's other designs have gotten, it's almost like she's a ghost.

The articles in WB 157 (including Bolger's "Shoal Draft and Self-Righting," which discusses both St. Valery and the Wm. Jochems Schooner) have a wealth of information. Trust me: it's well worth it, even if you don't plan to build the boat.

[Tom Lathrop]

The St Valery was built by Sam Devlin. In a discussion with him, he said that it required more ballast to correct a very tender nature. He appeared to like the boat though. I have never liked boats which relied on lift from the rudder to balance the boat. Lose the rudder, which is a fairly common failure, and you'd have a bitch of a time controlling the boat. Such a failure would be more common on a boat with a forward centerboard because the rudder would be much more heavily loaded.

[Stu Fyfe]

I'm sure Suzanne will pipe in here soon.

[Joe B.]

Got "The Folding Schooner" in the mail yesterday and already have most of it read. As I expected, Resolution is a brilliant and well thoughtout work of art. I could easily see calling her home for a prolonged period of time. Just got to decide what to build and what I really want/need in a new vessel.
Thanks for all the help!

[Chris Setzler]

There's a guy about a mile down the road who has built a St. Valery. She hangs from a lift on the York River and is sailed on the Chesapeake. He might be interested in discussing it with you. Will check if your still interested.

Chris

[matoi]

Chris, if you know the guy - please let him know that there are more people that would appreciate very much if he jumped in and presented his boat and experience with it...

Merry Christmas to all!

Mato

[Chris Setzler]

Chris, if you know the guy - please let him know that there are more people that would appreciate very much if he jumped in and presented his boat and experience with it...

Merry Christmas to all!

Mato

I don't know him well but enough to approach him about it. will let you all know.
Chris

[matoi]

Great, thank you Chris. And thanks to Steve for pointing out Bolger's article in WB!

[Susanne@PB&F]

I was unaware of a 2nd Ste Valerie. Good to hear about her. Any contact info and photos, accounts of experience with her ??

[Chris Setzler]

I am still working on connecting with the owner/builder. Should happen soon.

Chris

[Chris Setzler]

Just spent a very pleasant afternoon with the owner of the St. Valery. He can't type and is not very computer savvy, but he is interested enough in the forum to have me help him out in that regard. I also have some pictures I will post when I get a chance. Susanne, will ask him about giving up his name and contact info. You did call him after he received his plans. Chris

[matoi]

Chris, thank you. I'm looking forward to more info... I also managed to get some positive comments on Valery (lots of space, motion in seaway similar to bigger boats, smart details) from a well respected person, but he was not so happy with the rig.

Regards,
Mato

[Chris Setzler]

A few shots of my neighbor's St. Valery. I'll call him Dr. John for now.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/Chriscrash02/StValery-6.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/Chriscrash02/StValery-5.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/Chriscrash02/StValery-4.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/Chriscrash02/StValery-1.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/Chriscrash02/StValery-2.jpg
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/Chriscrash02/StValery-3.jpg

[Chris Setzler]

A couple more. This is not Dr. John's boat.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/Chriscrash02/StValery.jpg

[James McMullen]

I likes me a balance lug just fine, but that is very much not a pretty boat to my eye, powderhorn sheer and all. Wouldn't it be vastly handier and more comfortable as a cat-yawl with that mainsail and boom out of everybody's face than it is as some weird schooner-ish thingie? The ergonomics of the cockpit area look dreadful, with everybody having to duck and dodge on every tack or to see to leeward. It'd probably be more weatherly too with the leading edge of the major sail area out in clean air instead of backwashed by a foresail and foremast clutter.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y16/Chriscrash02/StValery.jpg

[P.L.Lenihan]

What a wonderful treat for the eyes compared to the many un-inspired, computer generated, POS that fill up most yacht clubs/marinas.Bolger drew on his nearly encyclopedic knowledge of nautical traditions, early French working craft in this case, for this particular beauty.For those"unhappy with the rig", I suspect they are either coming out of years worth of conditioning with bermudian rigged machines or just haven't taken the time to become completely familiar with St.Valerys' rig and discovering the efficiencies available through competent handling of same.

Mind you, the original client for who Bolger drew up this design, surely had a very specific"wish list" probably along the lines of: "Must be self righting, must be able to handle a wide range of wind and sea states, must have basic accommodations for two, must be able to pass under low bridges,must be traileable by a a mid-size car and must be home-buildable etc...

I think Bolger created a very handsome design worth taking the time to discover and that the redoubtable Mr.McMullen needs an Irsh coffee!

("Waiter,make that two Irish coffees as I'll be joining Mr.McMullen!)


Cheers!


Peter

[James McMullen]

Peter, I think you haven't been paying much attention to my ranting if you were to lump me in with those wedded to bermudan rigged machines. My own favorite boat out of the several I own is an unstayed balance lug rigged boat too.

The Romilly does every single thing on your list that a St. Valery could while being faster, more weatherly, and with an infinitely more comfortable and useful cockpit space--all still while also coming from the traditions of early French working craft. She's also shockingly beautiful in comparison to the ungainly St Valery to my eye. . . . .

http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/images/romilly_-_w25.jpg

http://europemast.com/masts/romilly.jpg

But then of course I'd be happy to share an Irish Coffee with you any day.

[P.L.Lenihan]

Well Mr.McMullen,let's play pretend and consider that I'm picking up the tab for our Irish coffees and I'll even pop for grub after a few coffees.:)

My comment was an "either or" set-up,either bermudian or not enough time with St.Valery.It was a broad sort of statement not specifically directed nor implying anything evil toward you.Honest!

As for Nigels' ROMILLY, there can be no denying her allure however compared to St.Valery she is more like a dime store slut compared to the wholesome girl-next-door practical St.Valery. To wit:1)St.Valery dumps her ballast(water) when trailered instead of lugging several hundreds pounds over typical country roads like Romilly. 2) Romilly has to book ahead to get her mainmast pulled before zipping under low fixed bridges(or Charles Atlas is crew) while St.Valery gracefully bows her counter-weighted masts to the folks strolling along the fixed bridge. 3)St.Valery offers incredibly comfortable and roomy habitation bellow deck with tons of storage volume for usefull stuff like dirkins,firkins and cases where as Romilly allows for what amounts to glorified camping in a wooden pup tent.

However,Romilly may well have it over St.Valery in terms of pure cockpit sprawling space but St.Valerys' high bullwarks,all around the boat, provide for an unlimited number of comfy spots for crew or skipper to lay against while enjoying the passing shoreline.Stuff also will not roll overboard by accident on St.Valery either.

And finally, speaking of enjoying the passing shoreline, since St.Valery is clearly not the speed demon that Romilly clearly is, the crew on board St.Valery will be able to take it all in that much more slowly as Romilly races by.

You ready for another Irish coffee yet?

"Waiter! Two more please and would you mind bringing us over a few more of those paper place mats.This one is already fuilled with boat doodles!"




Cheers!


Peter, i really likes yawls.........

[Chris Setzler]

I should mention that Dr. John's Valery is not to spec. You will notice the housed bow sprit in the pic with the boy on the unicycle. He likes to play with various sail arrangements, although he didn't sound all that happy with a jib. He used metal for ballast as he wasn't fond of the idea of water ballast. He used bronze plate outside and lead pigs inside. I need to get him on the forum. He would probably enjoy the above discussion.

[P.L.Lenihan]

Oh now that's it.Start messin' with the specs and some wonder why I can never win an argument.:) If this keeps up,I'll have to keep Mr.McMullen in coffees for several days!:D:D

It would be a treat to have the builder on board to share his first hand experience! I'd encourage him Chris.


Cheers!


Peter

[Steve Paskey]

The Romilly does every single thing on your list that a St. Valery could while being faster, more weatherly, and with an infinitely more comfortable and useful cockpit space--all still while also coming from the traditions of early French working craft.

Romilly is certainly most of what you say she is, James ... but is she really self-righting? IIRC, St. Valery will self-right from better than a 90-degree knockdown. Looking at the drawings, I can't imagine that Romilly would come close.

As for comfort, Dan Segal wrote on article on sailing St. Valerie for WB, and as I recall he found the cockpit and deck to be quite comfortable. Not as good as Romilly perhaps, but better than you'd think. And I'd bet that with the high sides she's roomier and more comfortable below.

I'm puzzled by the photos that seem to show a powderhorn sheer on St. V ... I've seen other photos from various directions that don't show any hint of that.

[James McMullen]

Each cat his own rat, I suppose. I think the Romilly and her larger sister Roxane are some of the prettiest boats out there, and the fact that they also sail like stink is an even greater bonus. I'm too used to those clear sightlines and freedom from the menace of a cockpit-sweeping boom from experience with a couple of different yawls to ever be truly satisfied with the cockpit arrangement of a boat like St Valery.

[James McMullen]

. . . . . dime store slut. . .


Yeah, but dude! She's Hot!

[P.L.Lenihan]

Yeah, but dude! She's Hot!


Oh yeah,she's very hot and,Lord forgive me, I've let my eyes stray from the straight and narrow.......I'm such a whimp and a sucker for slim fine lines!

I presume you've checked this out:
http://www.woodenboat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93389


All boats are like bananas,every chimp likes at least one!


Cheers James!


Peter

[DGentry]

Romilly and Roxanne are pretty, but - to me - it's mostly the truly cool rig they sport that makes them so. Otherwise, I don't find them particularly notable, visually. There's really nothing else going on, aesthetically (or even comfort wise), with the 22' Romilly that wasn't done by the indifferent fiberglass Victory 21 of the 1960's.

St. Valerie, however, is kind of eye popping and mind expanding. It took a while for the powderhorn sheer and overstated bulwarks to grow on me, but they certainly have. The lug schooner rig is interesting, to say the least, and puts up more area with a lower rig. Apparently it works just dandy, too. The cabin and stowage is expansive, for a trailer sailor, and the fwd centerboard and balanced, lifting rudder are practical and and . . . .

While I haven't sailed either of these boats, I'm not convinced that St. Valerie, with her longer waterline, 100sq ft more sail area and only 50lbs more in displacement wouldn't be faster than Romilly on all points - except close hauled. There, Romilly's higher aspect rig and foils would definitely stand her in good stead.
I'm just guessing though.

These boats both seem ideal for their respective purposes, and both look good, to me.

Dave Gentry

And, err, James, I'm pretty sure I've had to duck the boom in Rowan a few times . . . .:D

[Chris Setzler]

Perhaps someone will explain to me what a powder horn sheer is?

Chris

[James McMullen]

James, I'm pretty sure I've had to duck the boom in Rowan a few times . . . .:D

You did as crew, the helmsman didn't! On the much bigger Romilly or Roxane, even fewer people are at risk. The mast smack dab in the middle of St Valery's cockpit with a boom that crosses it and projects both fore and aft of it means that everybody has to duck and dodge each and every time. :(

That the rig works " just dandy " is contradicted several times in posts on this thread alone with reports from people who have actually sailed her ..... A cat-schooner is a compromise, just like any other rig, and not even conventional schooners with big, high-tensioned jibs are considered particularly weatherly compared to many other rigs.

The fact that Bolger, a noted experimenter with sail rigs, drew vastly greater numbers of cat-yawls than cat-schooners in his enormous body of work seems telling to me. Doesn't it seem like the rig of a Micro or a Chebacco or a Martha Jane would fit this hull just fine, and be more ergonomic to live with to boot?

Maybe Val's got a great personality though, and I'm just being too shallow focusing on her homeliness and her quirks.

[P.L.Lenihan]

Waiter! Quick! Two more Irish coffees over here!James is being shallow again! :D:D:D


Cheers!


Peter,the shallowest

[matoi]

Chris, thanks once again for your effort. If you get a chance to transfer a bit of experience with her, comments on her sailing ability from the owner, that would be wonderful.
Re powder horn, I think what James had in mind is that her bulwark edge follows the red line instead of what would be more common a black line on this: image. (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/0BQKNXsi62xwtO_5tGqQ0g?feat=directlink)

But, I guess one should really see her in reallity, or at least make a model to judge her beauty. Sketches, virtual 3d models, and even photos can be misleading sometimes.

Best wishes,

Mato

[Chris Setzler]

Chris, thanks once again for your effort. If you get a chance to transfer a bit of experience with her, comments on her sailing ability from the owner, that would be wonderful.
Re powder horn, I think what James had in mind is that her bulwark edge follows the red line instead of what would be more common a black line on this: image. (http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/0BQKNXsi62xwtO_5tGqQ0g?feat=directlink)

But, I guess one should really see her in reallity, or at least make a model to judge her beauty. Sketches, virtual 3d models, and even photos can be misleading sometimes.

Best wishes,

Mato


Mato, Maybe the best way to get the info you are looking for in a timely manner would be to send me a private message with a list of questions. I could ask him to answer them and get back to you or post them.

Chris

[TheBoatDoctor]

The boat balances well with main and foresail. The jib is on a retractable bowsprit, which makes tacking easier. The main staysil is a good addition in light to moderate air. The bronze plates on bottom and lead internal ballast make a total of 2000 lbs. This makes the boat adequately stiff. 2nd reef in each of sails make comfortable rig in 25-30 kt breeze. Boat built to specs except addition of bowsprit designed by Phil Bolger for me and permanently mounted footwell to avoid leaks.

Position of masts and booms no more a problem in tacking than in any of the other many cruising boats I've had. Comfortable cruising for 2 people. Despite the flat bottom, pounding in a chop is not really a problem as long as the boat is heeled 10 degrees or more. With the outboard the boat can be motored in 2 ft of water and sailed in 3 feet.

Happy sailing to you!
John

[paladin]

Thanks, John, and welcome aboard.

[WX]

Wooden Boat mag 157 has an article on the St Valery.

[WX]

Anyone interested in plans can get them here. Boat Design Quarterly No 10
http://www.daltonyoung.co.uk/index.php?page=store&cat=BDQ&ProductsPerPage=4&ProductBySectionListPageIndex=3