A scaled down Sardine carrier?

[Hazy Chris]

Here at my desk, drifting in and out of a kind of occupationally mediated torpor, I find my eyes continually drifting towards my wooden boat calendar, where sits my favorite picture for the year: Grayling the sardine carrier. It almost hurts how pretty she is.
Interspersed with Lotto delusions (also common on days like this) I find myself wondering if a scaled down version, say 35-40 feet or so, would make a practical cruiser. Grayling is ~65’X 12 ½’. Would sizing her down (say if performed by a competent N.A.) erode the overall simplicity charm and utility? A large part of the beauty is in her length for sure, but a 60 some odd foot boat just seems too big. I’m not really a fan of small ships, which look a little ridiculous to me, but it seems you just might be able to make it work with a Grayling like boat. There must be smaller boats along this vein No? A Scottish Zulu perhaps? I’m just daydreaming for the future here, so respond as you see fit, but I’m curious if anybody’d like to weigh in. Would you loose all the good and not gain anything?

[mmd]

Fellow forumite Tad Roberts (TR here on the WBF) has done a series of high L/B boat designs evocative of the boat type you are thinking of. It might be worth your while to contact him for discussion of the type. I have done some design work on this hull type too, but Tad is closer to you than I am.

[Meerkat]

If you scale down a sardine carrier, is it an anchovie carrier? ;)

(sorry, couldn't resist!) smile.gif

[MJC]

Can't answer your question, but this guy has the plans he made when he restored her. (http://www.dhylanboats.com/index2.html)

[Hazy Chris]

Thanks MJC. I should have remembered Doug Hylan had his fingers in the mix. I'm a huge fan of his designs. To me his boats look like boats should. Simple stately and gracefully timeless. I'll have to dig up the articles on Grayling tonight. My back issues have been buried in the garage since a move.
I'll do a quick TR search here too -thanks MMD.

I was thinking about it some more, wondering how much headroom you could preserve as the boat shrunk. A coach roof with any height would kill the whole look.

Meerkat, I had to chuckle. Then I got to thinking of possible names for my new boat.--"Sprat"? "Fry"? I'm kind of partial to "Pilchard" at the moment. Are they smaller than your average sardine?

[JimConlin]

Arthur Martin, the designer/advocate/builder/marketer of the Alden Ocean Shell, had a 48' boat along the lines discussed. It was cold-molded and modelled on the Maine Peapod with a fair amout of rocker, like the sardine carriers. Beam was maybe 9'. IIRC, it had reasonable headroom in the pilot house and was quite attractive. A small (30hp?) diesel propelled it as fast as he wanted. An elegant boat.

I think I understand this. In the water, the fish is a herring. When it's in the hold of the carrier and later in the can, it's a sardine.
They vary in size, but i think that a given batch will be pretty consistent. In the cannery, the different sizes of fish are referred to as 'fivers', 'niners', etc. indicating how many fish go into each can.

Some of my most cherished memories of cruising in Maine were times spent on the deck of a sardine carrier witnessing the pumping of a load of herring out of a wier. Maybe someone with a more detaled memory than mine can write the piece for another thread.

[TR]

Since Michael mentioned my name I'll jump in.

Scaling commercial vessels down for pleasure use is an old gambit, Murray Peterson's Coasters being one of the best examples. But it's a dangerous game, the scaled versions often drop into "Little Toot" country, there is a very fine line.

One of the problems is window size; they have to be very small in the scaled boat to look right. One of the masters at this is Christian Dahl (see early WoodenBoat). His miniature North Sea Trawler, Nordso, has windows that are about 12" square!

Grayling can be scaled down, but she will be a different boat. The main reason is that her good looks derive from long & low freeboard. To maintain this look and get some headroom, the boat must be deep. That will get the sole down low, but you will have to carry considerable ballast to sink the boat and gain the look you are after. I see Grayling actually carries about 20,000 pounds of ballast, so maybe it’s no biggy.

Also the pilothouse on Grayling is already telephone booth size; on the scaled boat it will be really small.

Scaling Grayling from 65' to 40' overall is about 61%. If you scale the beam by (.61L) ^.7 you will get similar performance and "feel". This gives a beam of 8'10", which is really narrow. I would suggest a minimum of about 9.5’; otherwise I think there's danger of producing a worthless boat. That is she would be too small for her length and cost.

Arthur Martin's Energy 48 has a beam of 8'3" and she weighs about 10,000 pounds. She is very small for her length, with headroom only in the deckhouse. But she will travel 1000 miles on 70 gallons of fuel.

I will try to post a sketch.

All the best, Tad

[TR]

http://tadroberts.ca/pics/small%20grayling.jpg

[ 11-09-2004, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: TR ]

[rbgarr]

Murray Peterson designed a small (20+'?) double ended tug type that was actually named 'Little Toot' by her Boothbay Harbor owners. She later was owned by folks who lived just east of the WB campus. The design came to mind when this thread started, but I don't know where to find a picture or drawing of her. I thought she could have the cabin moved aft from the current forward location for more of the GRAYLING look.

Speaking of scaling down, here's a sketch by someone that (if you measure off the details) shows how very small some things can get. http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=41&password=&sort=2&thecat=502

Speaking of sardines: A summer job I had was working for a sardine packing company. I worked in the office and on occasion we'd get a can returned that had a hairnet wadded up in it. At the end of shift, some of the packers would take off their 'nets and seal 'em in a can for spite and send it off to be cooked and shipped. We'd send the grossed out customers a sample pack of sardines in apology. :(

[whb]

Tad

Nice

[rbgarr]

Here's a picture of Murray Peterson's 22+' LITTLE BEAR (not LITTLE TOOT as I wrote above) from Mendlowitz's 'The Guide to Wooden Powerboats'.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid146/p586f33c9c0ac4e3779a9660d829466af/f64ddcab.jpg

I can imagine a talented designer moving the cabin aft and giving her more of a look like the GRAYLING.

[Doug Wood]

LIL' TOOT, listed as a custom tug, clearance priced...
www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&checked_boats=1311343&slim=quick&] (http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/pl_boat_detail.jsp?currency=USD&units=Feet&checked_boats=1311343&slim=quick&])

[DougWilde]

From Wouldn'tFloat #68:

http://dbwilde.home.comcast.net/BoatScans/Osprey2.jpg

is Mrs. Jones a Pete Culler design. In "Pete Culler's Boats: The Complete Design Catalog" it is listed as the "Fast Outboard for Commodore Percy Chubb", modified with a "Rhode Island box".

http://dbwilde.home.comcast.net/BoatScans/Osprey3.jpg

This makes my short list of possible motorized Bay craft.

Doug Wilde

[Hazy Chris]

Sorry-'been out of touch for a bit. Thanks for all the replies. TR- I always liked Nordso. It was for sale a few years back in Portland (Or) and I was keeping an eye on it. It is definitely one of a kind. I like the looks of the energy 48 and the Culler design, though they are vastly different boats. The culler design looks perfect for what is going on in the picture.
At first glance the 48 looks a little diesel duckish, but more elegant. Nice stern. I guess once you loose the "aftness" of the house, and the concomitant wide open deck space up front, it looses some of the charm for me. I understand you have to give up something as you go down in size though. It looks like I will just have to buy an ex-sardine carrier and get used to the size. smile.gif
TR-You answered a question I've had before, which is if you could design accordingly to sink a shorter boat a little to gain some headroom and keep the topsides clean. I suppose there is a limit there before you are designing a submarine.

Even though I'm dreaming somewhat here, it has galvanized the sense that I am an early workboat guy through and through. While I can drool over a nice S&S with the best of em, what continues to stop me in my tracks are the old trollers, channel cutters, prawners, tugs, launches, forestry vessels and such. The purposefullness somehow adds an otherwise absent grace. The trouble is that they have to be pretty big to tolerate a conversion without looking like that old trailer your nephew Billy had a go at. Even then, they generally don't make good all-rounders.

What I really need is about 5 boats, six if you throw in Grayling. (I've only got one so far.) 1) A Bristol Channel cutter, or a small schooner for travelling the world. -replete, of course with a nice little sailing dinghy. 2) A 1930's or so Northwest troller -just to have and hold. 3)A 1900-1940's tug for idle bay cruising -and for the unprecidented stout and salty panache. 4)A smallish sailboat for fun. This one is tough- Eric Jr, Rozinatnte, Wenda or a sailing peapod perhaps. 5)A small power launch. (Handy Billy hads down.)
So many boats...So little time.

OK it is late and I am rambling. Thanks agin for your replies and for generally indulging me. You are all officially invited for a cruise when I launch my freshly converted sardine carrier "Pilchard".

[Hazy Chris]

Wait, Make that "Brisling" after the inagural cruise in the Fjords of Norway. Who's coming?

[boatbuilder22]

Hazy Chris,

Maybe Sam Devlin's Oysta 30 will fit the bill.

http://www.devlinboat.com/oysta301.jpg