What am I missing here ? [Archive] - The WoodenBoat Forum

Leon m

12-05-2002, 03:57 PM

Why are people still building these old
sailboat designs when they could be building
a perfectly sensible multi hull? smile.gif If it's all
about the romance of the old designs I can
understand.I've always been a guy who appreciates
a well engineered design and as far as I see it
a Trimaran beats a mono hull hands down! They're
faster,they don't need ballast,they can be
beached,they're much safer in heavy weather,
etc,etc,etc.I've only been sailing for five
years and I know little about sailboat design,
but I've sailed on mono's and tri's both in
a fresh breeze and to me their was no contest
the tri smoked the mono in all categories.
So it begs the question :Why are people stuck
in the past with the mono hull and why aren't
more trimarans being built :confused:
Leon M

On Vacation

12-05-2002, 04:01 PM

UGLY, Dockage, Limited amount of room, On deck space stinks, Can't get it hauled out at your joeblow shipyard. Thats all that I can come up with if I were thinking about a sailboat to build.

Donn

12-05-2002, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by Oyster:
UGLYyup

On Vacation

12-05-2002, 04:07 PM

Did I fail to mention that they are bone chilling UGLY?

[ 12-05-2002, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

Bruce Taylor

12-05-2002, 04:11 PM

If speed is what you like, you're wasting your time with a trimaran. What you want is a big-ass Bayliner; or maybe a hovercraft. Or an airplane...I've been on airplanes, and they'll smoke a trimaran every time!

Frank Wentzel

12-05-2002, 04:14 PM

Leon

A bunch of reasons. I have looked at tri's and at one time thought seriously but you have to love a boat and for most of us performance is not the major criteria. If all you want is to go fast a jetski will serve even better. Tri's are high tech - monos are comfortable old designs. You sail "on" a tri but "in" most monohulls. A mono generally has you close to the water and I prefer a relaxed sail - rather difficult on a "go fast" machine. As Ratty said, you don't necessarily have to get where you were going to have a fine day. Many monos, sharpies for instance, are cheap to build, easy to sail and can be trailered more easily. Tri's almost demand high tech composite construction - a subject that is almost anathema on this forum. Call it grace, tradition what have you, but it is not often found with tri's. But they do sail fast!

/// Frank ///

Dave Fleming

12-05-2002, 04:15 PM

did anybody mention ***butt ugly*** yet!
:D :rolleyes: :D

Bruce Taylor

12-05-2002, 04:23 PM

You know, thinking it over, I realize that airplanes are kind of pokey too. What you really need is a rocket! At seven miles per second you'd be halfway around the world before you could say "Joshua Slocum!"

On Vacation

12-05-2002, 04:26 PM

Yea, but some of us have to settle for second best in these here times. like day old BBQ tonight. ;)

Thad

12-05-2002, 04:37 PM

And, besides Ugly and Uncomfortable, I was walking through the boatyard some years ago and someone (turned our to be Walter Green) was readying a cat/tri for a voyage and the thought occured to me (and so I asked the fellow):"what happens if you flip?" The answer was "never happens" and the next week Phil Weld spent a week sitting on the bottom of his tri in the South Atlantic. For example. And...

Bruce Taylor

12-05-2002, 04:50 PM

...and speaking of BBQ, I think people waste a lot of time chewing their food. According to my calculations, you can save about three minutes a day by feeding yourself vitamin extracts through a naso-gastric tube!

In the course of a year you can save upwards of 18 hours simply by not chewing. Think of all the extra time you can spend on your rocket ship!

[ 12-05-2002, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

Bruce Hooke

12-05-2002, 05:00 PM

I think it should be noted that there are some very nice looking trimarans out there. The designs of Dick Newick (http://www.wingo.com/newick/) come to mind in particular. Of course I think most of his boats are racing machines with rather spartan accomodations. The ugliest multihulls are the ones at the opposite end of the spectrum that are designed to support a living room size deckhouse...

Since we are all sailing for pleasure (or sailing for pay because it pleases someone else to be sailing for pleasure but they need help), it really all comes down to what makes a person happy, which is not something that can easily be reduced to logical issues about speed, beachability, etc. Sailing on a multi is simply a very different experience from sailing on a monohull; so some people like one and some like the other.

That said, there are some serious restrictions on multihulls in this part of the world. In the many areas where the only place to keep a boat is in a slip, the slip fee for a multihull is much higher than for a monohull. Also, the number of yards that can hall a multihull is, I think, quite limited. For better or worse these two issues make it difficult to have a multihull in many, many areas. The regions where there are yards that can handle a multihull are probably largely the regions where there are so many boats that slips are the rule; and in areas where moarings are still the rule, it is probably rather hard to find a yard that can handle a multihull...

Leon m

12-05-2002, 05:02 PM

OK GUYS
I get the point on the ugly thing .but what if
a guy made one real pretty out of wood? Then
what would you think? Although I found your
coments about speed(BRUCE)very entertaining :D
Its not about the speed for me,but its nice to
have it when you need it.As far as deck space
the tri's I've seen have just as much and more
if you consider the trampolines.
Leon

On Vacation

12-05-2002, 05:09 PM

It would look like an eighty year old woman working in Hooters. Out of place still fugly. Sorry.
Oh about speed? A sailboat on a day cruise is in a hurry to go where? A sailboat traveling trans Atlantic experiences how many days of uncompromising situations that will be able to get up on plane?

[ 12-05-2002, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: Oyster ]

rodcross

12-05-2002, 05:34 PM

For one thing, Leon, Its important to enjoy what you're sailing. If speed mattered I'd get something with an engine, and no sails, and never venture far from port. The cruising tri's I saw on my trip home couldn't get into some of the harbors, not because of depth, but width. Trimaran trampolines are not my idea of space; You can't cook on em; You can't sit on em in the evening watching the sunset. The scariest part is when they go over...They stay over, and they do go over. Don't forget, last summer on Lake Michigan. That boat was on top of experienced sailors.

You started this thread saying something about multi-hull being 'perfectly sensible'. If something that doesn't point worth a damn, must be gigantic just to sleep six people; Is butt ugly, doesn't fit in a lot of places, is sensible to you, build one out of wood.

ahp

12-05-2002, 05:39 PM

As a former cat sailor I can tell you that multihulls have their place, but they also have two stable orientations, rightside up and the other way. If you get the otherway, it is a real challange to fix it.

John B

12-05-2002, 05:47 PM

You won't catch me on one of those things.
I might enjoy it too much and have trouble going back to 7knots.
funny how they have those hatches UNDER the wing deck eh. :D

Bruce Hooke

12-05-2002, 06:23 PM

Actually, I think a mutlihull done up in traditional wooden boat style would be an absolute abomination, unless of course the traditional style was 'traditional multihull,' as in the very traditional multihulls of the Pacific Islanders. They are certainly beautiful boats, and they are capable of long offshore passages, but they don't really have the comforts that most cruising sailors these days are looking for...

The look of any other traditional boat style just would not fit on a multihull. Newick's boats are so beautiful because the whole package is integrated -- they are modern, high speed sailboats that evoke images of a bird in flight skimming over the water, which is very appropriate. Unfortunately all those beautiful curves are difficult and expensive to build so most multihulls are much more blocky and less refined looking. Then there are those multihulls, built largerly for the charter trade I think, that have HUGE deckhouses and look about as pretty as most of the modern cruise ships.

What I'm intested in knowing Leon, is what in particular do you enjoy about the experience of sailing a multihull? The safety issue can be debated up and down and it has been by much more knowledgeable folks than any of us without reaching a resolution. The practical issues can cut both ways depending on what you are looking for -- I know tight little harbors up in Maine that a multihull wouldn't fit into; on the other hand, for cruising in places like the Bahamas something that draws less than 18", but that can make offshore runs when necessary, would be just the thing. So, setting aside safety and practicality (after all any sort of sailboat is hardly 'practical' in this day and age! :D ), it comes back around to the experience of sailing either a monohull or a multihull -- so what is it about the experience of sailing on a multihull that you enjoy, Leon?

ishmael

12-05-2002, 06:24 PM

Lots of drawbacks well pointed out (though beauty is in...and all that), but one positive I don't think has been mentioned: while it's true multihulls occasionally flip, they are less likely to founder altogether.

To be a boat bum, er liveaboard, in say the Bahamas, on a multi would be fun for awhile, but I think I'd prefer a mono if I was going long distances.

But I've never been offshore, so what do I know? Some of them do look like a hell of ride.

Memphis Mike

12-05-2002, 06:41 PM

I was at the local marine supply store
not long ago. The owner had a multi-hull
he was repairing for some dude. It was
made outa some space age honey comb goop.
He said it made for a light weight boat.
Not something I would want to hit a reef
or an underwater obstruction in... thank you
very much. Besides, IT WAS UGLY!!! As sin.

The truth of the matter is, most folks
don't understand the love we have of
single wooden hulls. That we're trying
to preserve a heratage. They're all
caught up in the gleam and glitter of
throw aways. They don't know anything about
the romance involved. The smell.... the sound
on the water.

[ 12-05-2002, 07:50 PM: Message edited by: Memphis Mike ]

Ross Faneuf

12-05-2002, 08:57 PM

If you have a lot more fun on a tri, then that's the boat for you. But, of course, you asked about us...

I built a mono because
(1) building one hull was enough work; 3 is, basically, 3 times as much work.
(2) more interior space in the same length
(3) I understand monos better
(4) a tri can be a handful to maneuver on the coast of Maine (as opposed to the open ocean)

I have a friend who so loves multis that he has a power cat - and it's quite a boat (wide though)

Leon m

12-05-2002, 09:39 PM

So! what Im hearing here is despite the
looks you guys really think a trimaran is the
superior design :D Speaking of Superior my
favorite place in the world to vacation is a
town called Bayfield in Wi.its the gateway to
the Apostle Islands on Lake Superior.I plan to
move there in three years.alot of the guys I talk to up there say that a trimaran is the best
way to go (upredictable weather,very rough seas,
lots of shouls around the islands).that was
the first thing that got me thinking about tri's
and then this summer while crewing on a 35'raceing
sloop (designed to handle lake Mich)we got caught
in a force 9 gale ,got knocked down and stuff and
when it was my turn to pilot the boat it was
not what I would call a fun experiance!all I wanted to do was get on land again.First time on
a boat that I wanted to get off.then a few weeks
later I was piloting a tri in a very fresh breeze
and instead of sheeting out or heading up I just
went faster and had more fun and I never wanted
to get off and I never worried about dumping it.
But like you guys I LOVE WOOD!and I will never
own a plastic boat.I've worked with wood all my
life (cabinet builder,furniture maker).I think
the most beautiful boat in the world is a three
masted schooner that lives in Bayfeild its the
boat that got me started on this whole sailing
addiction.all that said I still think it would
be nice if I could build a boat that had the performance of a tri but the look and feel of
a classic wooden boat.
Leon M

[ 12-05-2002, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: Leon m ]

12-05-2002, 09:45 PM

If Nathanial Greene Herreshoff's catamarans hadn't been outlawed by the New York Yacht Club our traditions would be very different indeed. I think Dick Newick would tell you that his multihull designs are based on a far-far older tradition than the western-euro monohulls being so stoutly defended.

It occurs to me that there are a great number of monohulls that are ***butt ugly, and unsafe! This is not because they are mono's, it's because they are bad boats.

Anyone who says speed doesn’t matter is fooling themselves. Do you ease sheets and luff a bit to slow down when you cross tacks with anything even remotely similar in size? The rush of sailing at 14-16 knots in 10-12 knots of wind is hard to give up. You can do this in a monohull, but it requires constant vigilance (planning dingy or open class) and high-tech construction.

Mike Birch came second in the OSTAR in his 30' tri Third Turtle ahead of the multi-million dollar 236' mono Club Med sailed by Alan Colas. Both were great sailors, it was just a case of a good boat against a very poor one (for the purpose).

All the best, Tad.

ishmael

12-05-2002, 10:01 PM

Lee,

Have a look at Jim Brown's 'Searunner' series of trimarans. The 31 and 34 ft always looked like nice boats.

A cursory search didn't turn up a study site, but there seemed to be oodles for sale.

If you find a boat because of this tip...I want a sail! Always wanted to see that part of Michigan/Wisconsin. :D

Jack

Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )

12-05-2002, 10:12 PM

As someone who enjoys Sailing and capsizing :D a 9ft mono hull sailing dhow in the Hudson River. I would much rather sail that healed over with the rails in the water than any tri - ooh did I mention there ugly oooh < sour face :eek: > I dream of one day building a proper wooden lead keel gaff rigged MONO Hull schooner or a beautiful cat boat not as in cat-amaran geeze I hate having to explain to non boat building people the difference. Sitting in a plush wooden salon sipping a hot cup of coffee and charts, not getting wet rolling around on a trampoline. But I guess you dream your dream Ill dream mine

Leon m

12-05-2002, 11:44 PM

Ishmael
Your on ! you shuold see this part of Wi and the
U.P. of Mich Theirs nothing like it on earth.
Im not kidding theirs things to see that wuold blow your mind.It's the best kept secret I Know
SHHHhhh ! ;)

Leon m

12-05-2002, 11:58 PM

http://www.blacklockgallery.com/posters/images/LSP-08.jpg

[ 12-06-2002, 01:05 AM: Message edited by: Leon m ]

Todd Bradshaw

12-06-2002, 12:33 AM

This is the view from the Bayfield City Dock:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid28/p21e4892d463331ec7ece9dd078e15c7e/fd67f06a.jpg

Much of the shoreline in the area looks like this:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid28/pdd25fb200d87eae07c8cbc96b937368a/fd67efcf.jpg

and this is the view from the dock at Little Sand Bay, a few miles north of Bayfield:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid28/pf2ca4a0c04400ac39bd5f83b61ce777d/fd6880ab.jpg

These are all taken on "nice" days. On a "not so nice" day, things are very different. We sailed a small Farrier trimaran for about six years and, in general, liked it. In warm weather, there is a lot of space for moving around. I'm not sure I'd want one on Superior though. No matter how warm the weather is, most of the time the nets would be a pretty chilly place to hang out. Once the boat gets up to ten or twelve knots, it's bound to be a pretty wet ride out there and Lake Superior water is really cold.

The things that bugged me most about the tri were it's lack of pointing ability and the way they wobble while sailing in choppy water. At times, it is very annoying. Where a monohull will heel and go up and down in the waves, it is at least fairly predictable. Trimarans stay pretty flat, but various parts of the boat lift and sink (sometimes on separate waves or troughs) and the end result is kind of a round-and-round-up-and-down feeling that gets old really fast.

Wild Dingo

12-06-2002, 01:25 AM

mmmmmmmmmmm now ain this nice fer an sunny arvo yarn with yer mates??

There aint nothing "bad" or intrinsically "Ugly" "Fugly" or whatever about tris... mmmm well every boat is a series of compromises!

And taste... what turns you on what your needs are etc... a tri has its purpose as does any other boat be it mono cat tri sail or power...

Now Ive had a penchant for the Peterson Coaster Schooner for some time now and thats a mono... as sweet as...

Then again Ive also had a hankering for a Wharram for some time... the athsteics of them really does something for me... still trying to nut it out! and theyre cats or more "properly" called polyesian double canoes.

Elly comes to mind for another sweet mono... sigh

And searunners by Jim Brown for the tri... still sweet... was a time I had a site on my favorites list that had a heap of them on it but Ive since lost it somewhere in the ether... the only one Ive got now is here (http://www.searunner.com/) which gives exactly zero except words and we all know we goes to these sites to perve on the porn!!... sigh again

But here on the board we have a tri circumnavigator in at least one trimarran so perhaps he will come out of the woodwork and give his views?

From what Ive see of some building they actually have acres of room both inside and on the decks and have traveled all oceans... tippy? well ****e sos most flamin monos 9 times out of 10!... some come back up some dont... way it is...

Take it easy
Shane

SailBoatDude

12-06-2002, 01:56 AM

Isn't comfort, performance too. Isn't finding a slip in an unknown port as well. Going fast is just one element of performance. Getting there with the bright work still facing up, is a form of performance I look forward to, each and every time I'm out. I live in Florida where we go out all year long and really use the crap out of boats. Facing performance issues other then speed happens near daily here and I'm rather glad I have selected designs that have addressed most of the issues I'd like not to have to think about when I'm farther from shore then I care swim back to.

Having accommodations is very important at sea. The galley in mono's are too tight most of the time, in a tri it's worse. This is the most important area of the ship at sea. This is performance. The comfort level of a boat at anchor or under way, be it clawing off a shore where sharp, pointy rocks live or finding a cove to fit in to escape a storm, or a slip that's wide enough without having to pay double, or trying to walk on a trampoline in the middle of the night with the blow coming and being half asleep or hungover.

I consider most multi's dayboats or racers dressed down for cruising. They are great fun and I regularly take a friend's cat out for rough weather sledding, but knowing I'm not far from home or land, as we've had to drag the turtled thing to shore, more then once.

There are some really unique and innovative designs out there now, using some unorthodox rigs that seem on paper and in the limited time they've been around, to be the next generation of go fast, point high, can't be over powered type of thing. Yet the jury is still out on them mostly because we're getting, or are old, and like the smell of our farts. Change is the most essential element of all existence. Without it, the dinosaurs would still be here, but as long as us dinosaurs are still kicking we'll find a great bit to enjoy in the lack of wake LFH's Bounty leaves, let alone her looks, her ability to carry stuff you don't really need, slip availability, etc.

Isn't there a bunch of multi hull designers, who've taken their own handiwork to sea and are seemingly now living on some uncharted atoll in the South Pacific, yet to be heard from?

Rocky

12-06-2002, 10:12 AM

Well you asked for it, Leon. If you could sell sarcasm you'd be a rich man!

NormMessinger

12-06-2002, 10:18 AM

Now now. He got a good discussion going so that is good. Right?

--Norm

Leon m

12-06-2002, 10:20 AM

Todd B
nice pics good info.

Leon m

12-06-2002, 10:22 AM

Buster
I wasn't going for sarcasm.Just a little light
humor ;)
Leon M

AngWood

12-06-2002, 10:45 AM

To me it comes down to having an "well engineered" boat versus having a well designed boat. The best wooden boats are designed with utility and aesthetics in mind. An engineered boat looks like, well, an engineered boat. You won't see us asking each other, "Who's your favorite boat engineer?"

Wild Dingo

12-06-2002, 10:49 AM

Now heres what these fellas was warnin yer about Leon!!!

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid41/p7c9d4fe1b9d09f44b3c286b11ed40240/fcf6d486.jpg

An we ALL know ALL multihull sailors are into things like Wild Thing... eerrr RIGHT?

YeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeflaminhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaYaYa!!
:cool:

As others have noticed which I didnt check out the sails... reefed and furled!!! and still going like the clappers!!... I wanna be the fella sittin way out there on the alma!!... what a flamin hoot!! :D

Take it easy
Shane

[ 12-06-2002, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

Rocky

12-06-2002, 11:28 AM

Looks like a good way to break your leg - or your neck! I have the same feeling about powerboats, how much fun is it to go that fast? At some point it becomes an ordeal and you start thinking about what if you hit a bad wave or a piece of floating debris? I come from a family of sailors, it was apostasy for me to get an outboard, but I still spend half my time floating around with the engine cut. That's my way of finding the serenity you guys get from sailing.

ahp

12-06-2002, 03:54 PM

How much fun is it to fast? Surely you jest. The first time I sailed a cat it was like someone dosed me with a controlled substance! Other times it was just plane terrifying!

ken mcclure

12-06-2002, 04:06 PM

Hee-hee! You'll note that most here are not shy about expressing their opinions. :rolleyes:

For my part, if I have to build three hulls, I'm gonna build three boats. And when they're done, I don't have to connect them.

Ariel

12-06-2002, 04:16 PM

Beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder. As we grow older life slips by faster. Hence the desire to slow down and enjoy each moment. Cats and tris are fun and fast--but nothing beats lazying along in anything that floats....

Leon m

12-06-2002, 05:06 PM

Wild Dingo
"YeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeflaminhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaYaYa!!" :D IS RIGHT !!! THAT'S WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT!
oh those poor fellas sailing around in that
ugly boat. I bet they're having a terrible time :rolleyes:
Leon M

Leon m

12-06-2002, 05:44 PM

Whoops!I think my last statement may
have actually been a little sarcastic.
Sorry Buster!No offense! smile.gif
Leon M

Wild Dingo

12-06-2002, 06:02 PM

Acourse then one could also go with a bone like sooo...

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid14/p58aee9d49eb1b21d3f168ad37212b33a/fddc46f0.jpg

And if you look real careful like you will notice...

Only ONE hull!!! :eek: I still wanna be that fella up in the bow!!! what a hoot!

So moral of the story?... damned if I know but I reckon even with just one hull you can get some seriass yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeflaminhaaaaaayaya sailin time in!

By the by as I named the other so shall I name her seen above... she be... "Fritha" Murray Peterson Coaster Schooner built New Zealand 1985 sailing I believe in New York or San Fran somewheres... absolute dream machine no matter how one cuts it!!! :cool:

Now comparative excitement adrenaline rush sort of thing... I seem to recall photo someone threw up on here awhile back of their boat heelin way way over while sailing in a nice strong breeze... man that would have been just as much a rush!!... mmmmm whos was that??? seem to think it was the Gartsides could be wrong I guess but seein all that underside was a worry and a rush at the same time...

One hull two hulls or three? whatever rocks yer boat!... I actually like them all... for the one see above photo for the two go to Wharrams then for the three the searunner... but build 3 hulls?? mmmmmm not so sure about that... build 2 hulls... wonderment not a lost cause but still... build one hull? NOW THAT I CAN DO!! :D

Anyway enough of this frivolity... onto the more seriass stuff

I like to go slow an easy... its in me larconic nature mates but when theres a hoot to be had count me in the front lines!! :D well okay me body would be there but me heart would be sittin back on sure gettin ready for the ambulance ride but what the heck?!! live once and all that! :cool:

Take it easy
Shane

johnw

12-06-2002, 09:30 PM

I like going fast, and I like sailing multihulls, but often my most pleasant moments are on slow boats. I'm particularly fond of sailing Beetle Cats, although there is hardly anything I can beat in one other than another Beetle Cat. Some of my most enjoyable racing was in El Toros, because the little Bullships are so close in speed that the racing is very tactical. Different boats have different uses, and for most uses most people prefer monohulls. The one person I know who has spent a night clinging to an overturned tri is also the only person I know planning to build one. Go figure. His will have hyrofoils.

Bottom line, once we're on a sailboat, most of us are already where we want to be, so speed is not a huge issue.

JimConlin

12-07-2002, 12:33 AM

As with monohulls, some multihulls are butt-ugly and some are beautifil (to my eyes).
http://www.wingo.com/newick/echo2-l.jpg

As with monohulls, some are slow, and some aren't. I was on the boat shown with eight other people, doing 17 kts. in maybe 15 kts. of wind.

As with monohulls, some multihulls press the limits of structural integrity, or are subjected to bad seamanship. And bad things happen. (Couldn't find the photo of the America's cup boat with a lot more rocker than the designer intended, but I'm sure you remember it.).

As with monohulls, the good multihulls can be complicated and expensive to build. No kidding! Whatever you're buying, the good stuff is usually pricey. On the daysail i described above, Phil Bolger was aboard and seemed to enjoy the ride.

All boats contain many, many trade-offs. Depending on your priorities, Leon, a multihull could be good or not. But, please, let's get past the meaningless unsubstantiated generalizations and look rationaly at individual designs.

Jim

Rocky

12-07-2002, 05:22 AM

Not you, Leon, I meant if only you could sell all the sarcasm you were getting for free! When I want to go fast I do it on my bike, but I can see how you guys could get off doing it on the water.

Bruce Taylor

12-07-2002, 06:41 AM

But, please, let's get past the meaningless unsubstantiated generalizations and look rationally at individual designs.Bingo.

That's a gorgeous boat. If you want to do what a boat like that does, get a boat like that (just don't plank it in lapped cedar, LOL).

If you want a gunkholer for snooping around in a saltmarsh, look elsewhere.

If you want a boat you can tow, or a boat that can slide under a low bridge, or a boat that makes you feel like a pirate, or a boat you can build in a day using stuff you found in the basement, or a boat that can carry a huge cargo of breadfruit and yams, or a boat that reminds you of your dog, or a boat with a kindly roll, or a boat you can sail lying down, or a boat just like the one you saw in a picture book when you were a kid and have never forgotten and absolutely must have...then look for it, and when you've found it, that's the boat for you.

[ 12-07-2002, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Taylor ]

Leon m

12-07-2002, 08:33 AM

By the way ! How come so many people
are assuming just because you sail
a tri you have to go fast.I would think
you could go for a nice slow cruise.
It's all in how you manage your sails,
right?
Leon M

Bruce Taylor

12-07-2002, 10:52 AM

Well, sure. You could probably carry yams in it, too. A friend of mine used to haul lumber in a little red Acura. It worked fine...he just stuck the boards straight up through the sunroof. I helped him load a washing machine into it, once.

It wasn't really a pickup truck though. Not really.

Trimarans can do lots of things. That doesn't mean that the trimaran "smokes the mono in all categories." It smokes the mono in some categories, and can do almost as well in others. And there are categories in which the trimaran just doesn't cut it.

The boat that can be all things for all people hasn't been designed, and never will be.

Todd Bradshaw

12-07-2002, 11:34 AM

Sailing a tri below the speed that it naturally wants to go is often easier said than done. You can jam the nose up into the wind, higher than the thing is really able to point and mush along inefficiently, reduce sail area or drag a bucket along behind, but it's not like you can just open the throttle part way and sail slowly. In a lot of ways, it's more work and demands more concentration to keep the boat sailing in a partially stalled-out mode than to just trim things properly and let it find it's own speed.

G. Schollmeier

12-07-2002, 12:10 PM

This is Zeata (spelling?) just off Bayfield. Sorry I have more pics but no scanner.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc26b3127cce92d8a2f997c50000001410

Gary :D

[ 12-07-2002, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: G. Schollmeier ]

Todd Bradshaw

12-07-2002, 05:20 PM

You can read about Zeeto here:
http://www.apostleisland.com/3.htm
Check out the "Boats for Sale" link. Zeeto is for sale and the one named Lucern has really nice lines.

[ 12-07-2002, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

Leon m

12-07-2002, 09:33 PM

Thats My Baby !!!
http://www.apostleisland.com/zeeto.jpg
About six years ago I went on a cruise on
the Zeeto and it was like my first time with
a woman,I said to myself I gotta do this as
much as I can! I've had sailing on the brain
ever since.

G Schollmeier

THANKS Leon

Todd B
When I saw the Zeeto on E-Bay it broke my
Heart!To think of Bayfeild without the Zeeto
around is like....Well Bayfeild without the
Zeeto :( I know she's not the most stunning
boat you could ever see but she's got special
meaning to me.I agree the Lucern is a looker.
I think they're asking alot for them,maybe
since they didn't sell on E-Bay he will
come down on price and sell to a local
(hope so).
Leon M

[ 12-09-2002, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: Leon m ]

Todd Bradshaw

12-08-2002, 12:38 AM

The more you hang out in Bayfield, the more aware you become of what a short season they have. It doesn't surprise me that the owners are selling Zeeto, though as you say, it would seem like something is missing if she winds-up elsewhere. Next time you are up there go north of town a couple miles on 13 and look for the signs for "Schooner Bay". There is a nice reduced-size schooner based on the shape and basic design of "Bluenose" and if he's got it on the water, there is a really nice topsail schooner that a guy is restoring. We stopped and talked to him one day, asked if he was planning to get into the ride business or some sort of charter and he just said "No, I just plan on sailing her." What a great concept!

Ian McColgin

12-09-2002, 10:00 AM

Back to multi's - The fellow who sold Grana to me has built a tri and fled back to the Pelagic Village.

Tri's and cat's can make great live-aboard cruise forever type boats. There's much to be said for not dragging a few tons of lead around and for not having to sink like a stone if hull integrity is radically compromised.

For smaller cruisers, there are folding whatever the cross members are called so the ama's can be brought in like folded wings when it's time to go up on the trailor or snuggle into a dock.

There are even some designs, like Wharrim's (sp approx) that are fairly low stress.

It can be done. The designs are there. It's all in what you like. After all, the person or boat you love may be the only person or boat for you (except for those of us with more, shall we say, generous tastes) but s/he is not the only lovable person or boat in the universe.

Garrett Lowell

12-09-2002, 10:30 AM

Along these same lines, of why a mono or multi, why does anyone even bother brewing beer anymore? It's perfectly well known that single malt scotch whisky (as opposed to just whiskey) is superior to any hops and barley concoction!

Well, I guess there is that slightly overlooked "individual preference" factor. Mystery solved! Now onto the Ford or Chevy, paper or plastic, 'Publicans or Dems, Monty Python or Benny Hill, or any of a million or so rhetorical debates in which you care to engage.

johnw

12-09-2002, 07:21 PM

Now, now. If you start implying an equivalence between Monty Python and Benny Hill, people are gonna start getting rude.

rodcross

12-09-2002, 09:01 PM

'Benny Hill' hands down! You want rude, JohnW? You got it!

Leon isn't wrong about that part of Superior. A little remote, maybe, but AWESOME! That lake will chew you up and spit you out. I can't explain why I'd want to go back, but Oh Boy! what a beautiful place.

Don't do it in a trimaran, please.

Leon m

12-09-2002, 09:14 PM

Rodcross
"Don't do it in a trimaran ,Please"

Why not :confused:

Leon M

rodcross

12-09-2002, 09:29 PM

OK, Leon, here's the skinney. East or West out of the Apostles, you pick the route, and there's nothing for 50 miles that will protect you from the elements. You've been there. You know it is dangerous. Put your 11 year old old daughter on the boat with you and choose between my 40' yawl and your trimaran. Are you willing to gamble on stuff like that?

I'm not.

I know that lake, now. Its evil.

Don't play with concepts.