Oselvar Faering Build [Archive] - The WoodenBoat Forum

tapsnap

12-10-2009, 09:30 PM

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/faeringexample.jpg(Traditional Oselvar færing exhibited in Bergen Maritime Museum. taken from www.vikingship.com (http://www.vikingship.com))

I have always found Norwegian boat design to be quite beautiful in its form and construction. Faerings in particular from the Hardanger area have an economy and apparent simplicity of construction that I am drawn to. Inspired by Lagspiller’s thread on this forum last year. “Traditional west-norwegian rowboat project”, I’ve decided to try to build an Oselvar boat. I’ve been gathering as much information about these boats as I can for the better part of a year, but there is not a lot out there in terms of plans. Lagspiller has shared with me some of the drawings from the boat he built and that has been extremely helpful. I have also emailed him asking a number of questions.

The Oselvar is a three plank boat and the boat he built has four but the lines are very similar. I also bought “Inshore craft for Norway” by Bernhard and Oystein Faeroyvik. This book contains the lines for this boat as well as many others. http://www.danieloates.com/faering/lines1.jpg So I scanned them and brought them into my 3D program and built the boat in 3D to give me a better understanding of the forms and lines and angles. It’s clear however that all this information is useful only as a guide and the boat will be built, to a large extent, by eye.http://www.danieloates.com/faering/render.jpg

At this point I should clarify, I don’t have a lot of boat building experience but I do have a lot of experience working with wood. My background is in sculpture; most of my work was in wood but these days I make furniture. I do a lot of steam bending in my own designs but the biggest differences between furniture making and boat building is that the project gets wet all the time. This introduces a whole other set of considerations that a person like me has to become familiar with.
I am just finishing off my first boat – it should be in the water next summer. Because my workshop gets below freezing this time of year I will finish it in the spring. It is a glued lapstrake dory. It was a great first boat project but there was something quite dissatisfying about gluing those strakes together. I dislike plywood for most applications and I have never been a fan of epoxy. I guess I’m just a traditionalist. It has been partly that dissatisfaction compelling me to try to build a traditional Oselvar boat. I find the lines of Iain Oughtred’s boats to be beautiful but the way they are constructed puts me off buying a set of his plans. There is also something about the way a Norwegian boat is built that appeals to my sculptural approach to working with wood. When building a boat over forms that are taken off drawings, the whole process is very mechanical and dry; there is no involvement of the imagination or “eye”. Even in my furniture making, there are no plans from which I work and there are rarely any fixed dimensions. There is symmetry and balance but given that a lot of what I make is steam bent, there is lot of flexibility in dimensions.

I started gathering materials for this project last spring. I began with the stems. I looked at the two part spliced stems that are common to most Norwegian boats and decided, I guess rather arrogantly, that it looked weak. Instead I decided to steam bend the stems as one piece. At first, I had a number of failures due to inferior grade white oak.
http://www.danieloates.com/faering/failedstem.jpg

Next, I attempted the bends with black walnut, which resulted in success. However, I was told on this forum that I would have to beef up the dimensions of my stems if I wanted to use black walnut instead of white oak. http://www.danieloates.com/faering/bendingrig.jpgFinally I found some top quality quarter sawn white oak that was still green and very cheap. Perfection! They have been drying since April on this rack.http://www.danieloates.com/faering/bentoakstem2.jpgI painted the ends and the edges with wax and so far there are no cracks.

tapsnap

12-10-2009, 09:30 PM

The same saw mill happened to have a very large cedar trunk sitting around on a large pile of other trunks. I worked with the mill owner to cut it up. He charged me $150 for this whole pile. He cut it to 6/4 but I ripped it all down and planed it up to 9/16”. It has very few knots and is very wide; perfect for the wide planks for an Oselvar. It's Atlantic cedar. I cut off all the sap wood last May as I had an infestation of ambrosia beetles. The little bastards damaged quite a bit of the heart wood too. http://www.danieloates.com/faering/woodpile.jpg

Next, I started on the keel. I had difficulty finding a good piece of white oak for my keel so I ended up making it out of Black Locust. It took quite some work, as I got the initial dimensions too thick. I wanted to plane it down to the correct dimensions but found even the sharpest high angle plane would tear out the grain. I resorted to scrapers. It took a long time.http://www.danieloates.com/faering/locuststem1.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/locuststem2.jpg

I set up the keel in the front of the barn, where I will be building this boat. I put in an overhead beam against which I will be able to brace the planks and braces for the stems.http://www.danieloates.com/faering/keelbed3.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/keelbed1.jpg

Whilst in Maine last July 4th I cut some red oak crotches and brought them back to Connecticut with me. I axed them to about 2" and they are now drying. I was hoping to use them for ribs or maybe oarlocks. http://www.danieloates.com/faering/knees.jpg

Anyway, I'm at the point where I am starting to shape the stems before I join them to the keel. I will keep you posted.

Thad

12-11-2009, 06:42 AM

Thanks! Keep at it. Look forward to rowing her.

Peerie Maa

12-11-2009, 09:25 AM

Those crooks might do nicely for the beam and standing knees that you need:
http://www.22kvm.net/bilder/Robaat/album/slides/100_3493.jpg
They certainly will make the kjeip that she will need.

pcford

12-11-2009, 10:43 AM

Good luck with your project. I have a three strake Oselver that is now having at least one of the garboards replaced by a local guy who has spent a lot of time in boatshops in Norway.

You dialed in the way to solve the extremely wide dimension of the middle strake on Oselvers: They used the swelling on the butt of a tree to accomplish it. The middle strake on my boat is about 21 inches wide. Because of this extreme width, they are very prone to drying out and cracking. In Norway, when they are hauled out, they are put in a tiny boathouse a few feet from the water's edge and covered with a wet mat. Don't get freaked if it does crack. I was concerned about cracking on my boat. I asked an old Scandanavian shipwright at a yard where I was working...he said, "Oh, we just let them sink and haul them out two weeks later. Your boat will be ok."

You might note the the forward and after garboards are often hewn not steamed. In other words, you start with a thick board and carve the shape. As I understand it, traditional Norwegian building did not use steaming very much if at all.

I would be very, very cautious about altering any detail on your boat. Anytime I have done this I have come to grief. The boat has about a thousand years of history...now that's a traditional boat. In that time, the builders have refined out the best way to build these boats.

Best of luck...I agree, they are beautiful boats.

tapsnap

12-11-2009, 08:35 PM

21 inches!!!, Really? according to my measurements the widest plank is about 16 1/2". Are you sure you are not measuring diagonally down the stem?
The middle strake is prone to cracking from the reports I have read and I was on the fence for a long time whether to build a 3 strake or 4 strake boat, but it seemed such a shame to cut these wide planks down. But if they indeed need to be 21", then I guess I will go back to planning a 4 strake boat. Either way, I am using Atlantic cedar which swells and contracts less than the Norwegian/ Scots Pine that they traditionally make these boats with. I hope that will make a favorable difference. On the other hand, I don't think the Norwegians have such extremes in temperature and humidity as they do here in Connecticut. Well, if it cracks then I will just have to sink the boat for a week or two.

In preparation for this project in October I started making the clamps that will hold these extra-wide planks in place. I make one of these every week or two. I still need 3 or 4.
http://www.danieloates.com/faering/boatclamps2.jpg

pcford

12-11-2009, 08:51 PM

tapsnap....Your boat is roughly 16ft. long...if I am reading the drawings correctly. Mine is 22.

By the way, I should have said the middle strake appears to have been cut from a piece of wood about 22 inches wide. I am extrapolating the upper and lower edges. At no point is the plank measure 21 inches from lower to upper edge. The upper edge is forward of the lower edge as it lands on the stem. So I projected these two edges. I hope I made myself clear.

Peerie Maa

12-12-2009, 07:40 AM

tapsnap

12-12-2009, 08:06 AM

Peerie Maa, I agree, I have been considering doing just that. The 3D model is great for certain things but I think an actual model would help resolve a lot of unknowns in the construction.

emf

12-12-2009, 02:49 PM

Here is a couple pics out at Jay smiths place of I believe pcfords 22' faering and a larger version in the background.:Dhttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4038/4179279564_c68bfff3af.jpghttp://farm3.static.flickr.com/2772/4178519985_d5fd341071.jpgIf you are wondering about the viking ship there is more info at http://wildexpeditions.org/index.html
Jay plans on waiting till Feb. to continue work on the ship.

pcford

12-12-2009, 03:27 PM

Thanks, emf!!! Did not get a good photo when I was at Jay's place. By the way...both vessels are stem to stem...going the same way, in other words.

tapsnap

12-12-2009, 04:43 PM

pcford

12-12-2009, 05:21 PM

Nice. It's unusual to see a faering that big. At that size they are usually seksaerings aren't they? Do you primarily sail this boat? I understand what you meant about the really wide planks now.
I went to the website it's a very impressive project and a great program for kids. I would have loved to have done something like that when I was a teenager.

It has only one rowing station. It is mostly sailed. It rows pretty easily, but is not a lot of fun to row into a headwind. The boat definitely had alterations from original...it had a lead ballast keel. It sails fine without the ballast keel. Not like a racer but it'll definitely go to windward. Also, it has fore and aft seats on each side over the middle frames. I did not see additional rowing stations when I replaced the original sheer clamp. It is a mystery what the original configuration was.

tapsnap

12-12-2009, 09:44 PM

I managed to get a little work done on the stems this evening.http://www.danieloates.com/faering/Stem8.jpg

emf

12-13-2009, 01:38 PM

Hey tapsnap, just wondering what 3d program you used?

tapsnap

12-13-2009, 04:44 PM

The 3D program I used is Lightwave 3D. I have been using it for the past 10 years or so. It's not really meant for this kind of 3D work though. It's more for 3D animation. A better program for 3D engineering is Solidworks. It's a program I use also but I'm not as adept in using it, so it's much faster for me to do it in Lightwave.

tapsnap

12-13-2009, 09:12 PM

Continuing to shape the stems this evening. I began with the bandsaw then finished with the spokeshave.http://www.danieloates.com/faering/stemshaping.jpg

heimlaga

12-15-2009, 01:08 PM

Will steamed stems really hold their shape over time?

An aquintance of mine messed up the bow of an otherwise fine clinker built doubleender by steaming the stem instead of hewing it from a grown crook. The steamed stem straightened a wee bit as he planked and the bow dropped and the flare was reduced. He did not notice the error until he fitted the last strake and could not ger a fair shear. There was nothing he could do about it. Sad story.

In Scandinavian boat building steaming was not used until the early years of the 20th century. In my area the oldtimers split the forward and aft pieces for the first two strakes from logs with twisted grain. Each half of the log was hewn to become a plank. The third and fourth strake were soaked in water and bent in place cold.
The gunwale and outwale were sometimes split from long thin spruce trees that had grown in the shadow of thier higher neighbours. Split wood bends better than sawn.

lagspiller

12-15-2009, 04:34 PM

Nice to see photos of your project. I'll admit now that I did have some doubts the first time you mentioned your plan. But your questions were good, and when you got around to forming the keel it was clear you were really going to give it a shot. I was impressed, but still not confident. Now I am. The photos of your shop and the planning ooze craftsmanship. It will be very interesting following how your adaptations turn out.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/lines1.jpg

Probably not all that much of a coincidence, being that Oselvers are from this rather small geographical area, but Onarheim, mentioned in the drawing you posted, is a town on a neighbouring island. Our building instructor is from there...

If your photos are current, I am just a bit ahead of you on my second build. Laid up the keel - stem assembly last saturday and will begin next saturday by cutting back & planing in the 'rolling bevel' (you guys called it something like that) from the 'T' on the keel to the stem. Then its time for the first garboard. The other guys in our build are way ahead of me.

Looking at your last picture... it appears you have already shaped the inboard end of your stem. But on the chance you haven't - it is easier to get the scarf right if you leave the final 10 cm square. Then plane it down after it is attached to the keel.

pcford

12-15-2009, 05:12 PM

Lagspiller,

Do you have any insight on my Oselver? See post number 8. It is roughly 22 ft. It has but one thwart...there are bench seats fore and aft over the middle frames. I got it about thirty years ago...at the time it had a Marconi main...I assumed that was a latter day alteration, so I changed it to a sprit. Now I understand it was likely the original sail. It also had a ballast keel...I'm sure that was not orginal. The sheer plank; sheer clamp; top of the stem and sternpost were are rotten. I replaced them. It has been in storage for many years.

I am having Jay Smith...a local guy experienced in Norwegian boatbuilding replace at least the forward starboard garboard.

Thanks for any insight you might be able to give.

tapsnap

12-15-2009, 09:56 PM

Heimlaga, I hope the stems don't creep over time. I'm not so worried about them doing so while I'm building the boat as there are 4"x4" posts either end of the boat, against which the stems are bound and there is downward pressure on the keel from the overhead bracing. However, once the boat is in the water they may want to move - I don't know. But there are other forces in the boat counteracting that tendancy. As far as I know steam bending a stem is an acceptable way of making a stem. I believe John Gardner talks about it in his book "building classic small craft" .

Lagspiller, I had no idea you were currently building another faering. That's great news. I will try to catch up to you over the next few days. That way I will be able to compare notes with you and it will give me a timetable to keep up with. This is great, you know, your posts really were the inspiration for my project. Thanks

lagspiller

12-16-2009, 07:21 AM

Tapsnap - I haven't seen a steamed stem, but as far as worrying about it straightening out... I wouldn't be much concerned. The original stems are made i two pieces, glued and rivetted, but it is the pressure of the hull boards that is the real strength. With all the balanced tension they apply and the frames in place, I can't imagine the stems could possible straighten - even if they tried.

It is roughly 22 ft. It has but one thwart...there are bench seats fore and aft over the middle frames. I got it about thirty years ago...at the time it had a Marconi main...I assumed that was a latter day alteration, so I changed it to a sprit. Now I understand it was likely the original sail. It also had a ballast keel...I'm sure that was not orginal. The sheer plank; sheer clamp; top of the stem and sternpost were are rotten. I replaced them. It has been in storage for many years.
I looked for a picture, but can't find it.
Boat sizes vary. Yours is on the big side, if it is færing, but not unheard of. The one I'm building now is 19'5''. I think the færing built specifically for bermuda (or marconi if you prefer) rig are generally longer than the sprit boats.

Yes, some are original with bermuda rig. In my experience, that is for the boats specifically built for racing. They point higher than the sprit classes and are a touch faster. These boats also have a deeper keel - which might very well be ballasted. That is generall screwed onto the permanant keel. Even with the adjusted keel, they require an active crew to balance. When at rest with just the mast in place, an empty bermuda boat heels over until the waterline is just under the gunnel. It looks quite wild.

pcford

12-16-2009, 12:16 PM

I looked for a picture, but can't find it.
Boat sizes vary. Yours is on the big side, if it is færing, but not unheard of. The one I'm building now is 19'5''. I think the færing built specifically for bermuda (or marconi if you prefer) rig are generally longer than the sprit boats.

Yes, some are original with bermuda rig. In my experience, that is for the boats specifically built for racing. They point higher than the sprit classes and are a touch faster. These boats also have a deeper keel - which might very well be ballasted. That is generall screwed onto the permanant keel. Even with the adjusted keel, they require an active crew to balance. When at rest with just the mast in place, an empty bermuda boat heels over until the waterline is just under the gunnel. It looks quite wild.

Lagspiller...Here she is:

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4038/4179279564_c68bfff3af.jpg

As I recall the keel extends below the garboards about 3.5 inches. (9 cm) As I mentioned, the boat originally had a ballast keel. It extended maybe 18" (.5 meter) below the bottom of the boat. My hazy memory...it was about 1973...recalls that the lead was about 100 pounds. I recall that the deadwood of the ballast keel was Alaska Yellow Cedar. If my recollection is correct, it is then unlikely that the ballast keel was original.

She does heel over quite a bit. However, one always feels safe...like resting in Momma's lap!

lagspiller

12-16-2009, 01:24 PM

Ok... looking at the gunnel, I can't see any sign of a keip (oar-bedding). No marks visible in the photo and no widening of the gunnel where the oars are. That suggests it was built specifically for sail - probably a racing boat. They don't have oars - cause that stuff would only be in the way when hiked out, riding the gunnel in a gale...
The depth you mention for the sail keel sounds right, too. I don't know the present official measurement for the keel, but can ask someone in the oselver club if you get interested in 'extreme sports'.

pcford

12-16-2009, 08:33 PM

Thanks, Lagspiller. The sheer clamps as they exist now are copy of the orginals...as best as I could manage. I replaced the sheer clamps and there were only one set of fittings for oars.

Do the sailing Oselvers have fore and aft bench seats like mine?

tapsnap

12-16-2009, 09:32 PM

pcford, here is a picture of racing Oselvars that might answer some of your questions. I copied it from http://www.oselvarverkstaden.no/ It was taken by Vidar Langeland.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/racingoselvars.jpg

Their interiors appear to be quite different from a regular rowing and sailing Oselvar. They also look like they are larger.

In terms of the progress on my boat, I cut the scarf on the stems this evening and planed them to the correct angles. It wasn't really difficult getting them to fit but I am holding off gluing and riviting them as the temperature is going to drop to 14 degrees Fahrenheit (-11 degrees Celsius) tonight and tomorrow's high is will be 20 degrees. The glue I will be using is an epoxy especially for use on Oak and Teak but the lowest temperature it can be used at is 28F. My workshop will be like a meat locker tomorrow. I can try to warm it up or I can wait on gluing the scarf until it warms up.http://www.danieloates.com/faering/cuttingscarf1.jpg

lagspiller

12-17-2009, 08:05 AM

pcford, here is a picture of racing Oselvars that might answer some of your questions.
Hehe... for all I know, I might be in one of those boats. :p
That's the fleet I used to race with.
Those are 8kvm sprit rig boats. They are generally about 18'.
Good shot of them. Pay special attention to the way the jib is attached. The forward stay swings on a boom, hinged at the mast. Opposite arrangment of a whisker pole. When running downwind, like these boats, the LEADING edge of the jib is swung outboard on the boom.

The bermuda rigged boats sail in a different class with larger sails. There is one in the same series of shots....
http://www.oselvarverkstaden.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=27&Itemid=30
Click on the picture with the caption 'Segling'.

pcford

12-17-2009, 12:15 PM

Lagspiller...
Thanks so much. I think we now know the provenance of my boat. She is a racing class boat originally with a Bermudan rig. I had a designer do a sprit rig...it is not the same as the sprit rig which I see in the photographs...however, it looks appropriate and works well. The biggest drawback is that we had to step the mast about 18 inches forward of the thwart. (To allow for the difference in center of effort between the sprit and and Bermudan rigs.)

I have forwarded this information along to Jay Smith.

tapsnap

12-18-2009, 03:55 PM

Lagspiller,
Are you guys still using the urethane glue you were using last year for the scarfs? I remember you had a problem with it failing on the oak scarfs. You said it didn't really matter as the planking and the rivets did more of the holding than anything else. Does urethane glue even have any adhesive properties on the oak or did you use it for it's gap filling properties?
I'm feeling cautious and was wondering whether I should use Resorcinol. My scarfs are clean and tight but there is the problem of moisture and temperature. I can get the temperature higher by wrapping the joint in an electric blanket but do you know if the Resorcinol glue is moisture sensitive? ..... Anyone?

Thad

12-18-2009, 04:13 PM

Resorcinol is waterproof but you need the heat. i think the old norse way used no glue in those scarfs, just the rivets and the swelling wood. The Controversies were strip built in Maine with resorcinol and they did all the fitting and gluing in the day and cranked the heat to 75F overnight with good success as far as I know.

tapsnap

12-18-2009, 04:37 PM

I meant the moisture in the wood. This wood has only been air drying for a few months.

emf

12-18-2009, 11:00 PM

I use sikaflex in my skarffs and in the laps to good effect.http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2765/4196039727_8b7aa8dd7b.jpg

lagspiller

12-19-2009, 04:48 AM

We have used different types of glue. It doesn't really seem to matter too much once the boat is built because the rivets and planking are the real strength. As long as it holds until you get the boards on and the glue is waterproof I think it is not so important what you use. The first glue we used, and had most trouble with, was Tech7... comparable to a 3M product you guys knew... named something like 3M 5200. A bit stiffer than Sikaflex, but not 'permanant'. Most of us now use the polypropelyn glue. That works fine as long as the temp is high enough in the shop. I used a 'flexible' epoxy on my stem scarfs and the uretan/polypropolyn glue on the keel scarfs. Concidered resorcinal, but dropped it because of the colour band it would leave and the fact that I used up the 5 kg tin I bought for the first boat.

Our keel & scarf materials are more or less pulled right up out of the sea, scraped clean of shell & barnacle and put to use almost immediately. The keels that were shaped in june and first put to use in september are less true than the fresh ones...

tapsnap

12-19-2009, 08:51 AM

Thanks Lagspiller and EMF, that reassures me. I will try to get the joints glued up this weekend. By the way, can you do me a favour and photograph the rolling bevel from several angles before you rivet on the first boards? And one other question; do you finish the rolling bevel completely and adjust the hals to it or are you making minor changes to the rolling bevel as you are fitting the hals?
Anyway, I've got to go now to make preparations for this winter storm that is about to hit us - lots of snow and wind.

lagspiller

12-19-2009, 10:53 AM

I had to adjust the bevel after beginning to fit the first hals, but that was because I was too careful about taking off too much. Saw that immediately when I pressed the hals in place on the first fitting. Then I made it longer and let it run out to within a couple of mm of 0. That way you don't get a grope that will collect water. Once I knew how it was supposed to look, I finished it completely before moving on to shaping the garboard (hals).

You will see what I mean right away, so don't worry about it. Do what you think is right and then make the adjustment when you see how it works with the garboard.

I can make the photos you ask for - because I entirely dropped the shop today. Everybody else took a holiday, so I went christmas shopping instead. ;)
You can do the rolling bevel with the keel in the strongback, but we have found it is easier to do if you take it out and turn it up-side down. Then you stand, looking down on the piece and have a lot easier access. But you need to have the bits glued together first and then help to turn it over.

There is a trick when gluing the stem to the keel. You don't need to get everything wedged perfectly in place now, but make sure the depths at the bow and stern are correct and they are straight. Wedge the bits in the strongback, attach your central string (put in a screw just below the scooped out bit under the top of the stem... I'll find a picture. Look below) and measure the height at a right angle above the keel/stem joint. Bow - 82 to 84 cm, stern 72 to 74 cm. This is important because it is the only thing in this process you cannot adjust later and ALL the other measurements depend on it being correct.
http://www.22kvm.net/bilder/Robaat/album/slides/100_3199.jpg

http://www.22kvm.net/bilder/Robaat/album/slides/100_3251.jpg
The second shot shows the real use of the notch - not just for placing the measuring string, but for clamping the stem. A couple of turn of rope and a winding stick...

tapsnap

12-25-2009, 03:09 PM

So I finally got the stems glued to the keel. I still haven't finished the transitions so the backbone is not secured to the framing yet. Everything looks straight and true so far. I have found it difficult to work on this project over the past few days with all the holiday preparations, but I should be able to work on those rolling bevel/transitions between now and the New Year. http://www.danieloates.com/faering/backbone.jpg

lagspiller

12-27-2009, 05:11 AM

We are even. Everybody here has focused on family & Christmas so nothing is happening in the boatshop.
You are at the point where turning the keel assembly over and bracing it against the building framework makes it easier to work on the bevels. Untraditional, but effective.

One word of caution - if you have fastened the central string by tieing it around the stem as it appears, you might want to think again. That is the measuring point for everything. A secure point that cannot move is extremely important. The standard method is a screw with a slot, standing proud, with the string tied to the screw so it passes through the edge of the slot.

tapsnap

12-27-2009, 10:30 AM

I tied the string on temporarily at the correct heights to see where they would fall on the stems. But thanks for the advise on securing that string. I have now taken the the whole assembly out and lay it on it's side to work on those transitions. When I picked it up I was surprised at how light the whole thing is. I'll work on one side today and finish the other side tomorrow.

emf

12-27-2009, 12:07 PM

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2717/4218847865_9679a377c7.jpgI cut a constant bevel along the upper part of the T keel and found a rolling bevel was not needed on my boat. You might want to wait and see how much your garboard will need to twist. I start with a pice of doorskin ply to help get the shape of the hood end and see how much twist is needed.http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2664/4218789053_031e6c61a3.jpg

tapsnap

12-27-2009, 02:48 PM

Thanks for the tip EMF. I will plane it as a continuation of the keel - without any roll then and adjust it using a door skin template, as you suggest.

donald branscom

12-27-2009, 03:06 PM

tapsnap

12-28-2009, 08:58 PM

I finally got started on blending the stems with the keel this evening. I didn't get them finished but I have worked each face and the transition is beginning to look good. At first I was a little apprehensive, not knowing exactly how much to take off but it becomes clear as I keep working the areas what needs to happen. Right now I am simply using a 4 foot straight edge rule that I am holding against the bevel and bending it round the curve of the stem. That simple action shows me where I need to take off more and where I need to leave. In the next few days, I will work on a doorskin template to get an idea of the shape of the plank I will need to cut. http://www.danieloates.com/faering/transition5.jpg

I am looking for rivets. I got some samples form "Faering Design" The roves are 1/2", 9/16" and 5/8". I think I like the large 5/8" ones. The only trouble is the nail heads for the 10ga nails are only about 3/8". Does anyone have a source for large roseheads? They only need to be about 2" long and 8ga would be fine but I would like to find some with heads at least 1/2" diameter - for no other reason than I like the look of them.

tapsnap

12-30-2009, 12:59 PM

Continuing with the transitions between the stems and the keel this morning. I'm not sure how far up the stems I should take them and I'm not sure how deep the rebate is supposed to be. The picture shows them as a continuation of the keel, but like this, they appear to be awfully shallow. It seems to me that they would be too shallow to adequately hold a screw especially if there is no rolling bevel, just a continuation of the keel bevel. My stems are 4cm wide and the top of the keel, is 26mm before it "Ts out". Is this correct?http://www.danieloates.com/faering/transition7.jpg

emf

12-30-2009, 01:35 PM

In my(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2616/4219551228_3fcc7dbc8f.jpgnon-profesional) opinion you could leave the stem as is or continue the rebate all the way up to the sheer. In my boat and a lot of norse boats there is no rebate just a flat stem and the hoodends beveled to meet the keel and stem. You wan't the screws or nails to angle into the keel/stem. The piece on the lower part of the stem is a clamping aid.

Hope this helps.

tapsnap

12-30-2009, 03:35 PM

Thanks EMF, I understand now.

lagspiller

12-30-2009, 04:28 PM

Tap... that isn't the way we do it. As EMF says, the stem doesn't get any bevel / rebate. After we cut the T part of the keel symetrical (seen from above), we work on THAT alone cutting the rolling bevel. It runs out to zero (underneath the T) where the wide upper part of the keel ends. You are going to have extra trouble fitting the boards against the stem because you will have to from both the lip on the stem and the board. We do the opposite... the upper edge (inside edge) of the stem is rounded. Look at the plan for the stem cross section.

When fitting the garboard, it is first roughed out to shape and given a 2 cm bevel where it goes around the curve of the stem. Towards the midships end the bevel decreases evenly to about 1 cm as the board passes under the T and onto the rolling bevel.

Found a picture that might help
http://www.22kvm.net/bilder/Robaat/album/slides/100_3226.jpg
The T ends just under the support from above the boat. The T on this boat has almost been reduced to 0 and the final evening continues on in the stem for a few cm. After that, the top of the stem is rounded all the way to just under the central measuring string. You can also see the thickness of the T section begins to be reduced about 20 cm from the scarf - begins near the wooden 'hook' holding the garboard on the other side. You can also see how far the garboard passes the stem/keel scarf.

Another thing... remember to reduce the width of the keel along the bottom edge to the same 21mm you have along the outside edge of the stem...

tapsnap

12-30-2009, 09:15 PM

Hmm, well I guess it will be OK. Lagspiller, I was a little confused when looking at the drawing you had sent me. The cross section labeled "Lat" appears quite far along the stem. I took that to indicate that there was a rolling bevel against which the inside face of the garboard was bedded and the edge of the garboard bedded against the flat face of the stem. What was unclear, was how far this extended before transitioning into the "Midtstrek"http://www.danieloates.com/faering/keeldimensions.jpg

I still am not sure what you mean when you describe the keel bevel thinning form about 20cm to the scarf. Are you putting a rolling bevel on that section or is that the same bevel as the rest of the keel and you are just tapering that section?

lagspiller

12-31-2009, 03:53 AM

still am not sure what you mean when you describe the keel bevel thinning form about 20cm to the scarf.
I'll try again... Measured from the point where you have ended the 'T' cross section on the keel and about 20 cm towards midships on the keel (maybe a little more - doesn't matter as much as getting it even and gradual). In the drawing, the scarf is the 10 cm section. The 'T' ends at the midships end of the 10cm measure (bottom right in drawing). The point where the 'T' ends should be shaved off from underneath to within a few mm of the top edge. From that point you need a rolling bevel on the underside of the 'T' towards midships that runs out to full 'T' cross section width about 20-30 cm farther midships. If you look at the picture I posted, you will see that the 'T' is full thickness near the keel support in the top of the picture and evenly is reduced to a couple mm at the keel support in the bottom of the picture.

That shape is carried over on the låt for 10-20 cm as needed. It should go over to the rounded off cross section drawn several places as the låt begins to curve upward.

I guess that is where this question came up...

The cross section labeled "Lat" appears quite far along the stem.

The drawing would have been better if the arrow had pointed in the other direction. The trick is to end that cross section and go over the the shape in the large cross section floating at the top of the drawing. Looking at the drawing again, that would be somewhere slightly ahead of the word "skrue"... where the three lines drawn at the top of the scarf disappear and a new double line showing the rounding off, begins. See it?

From this point, the top edge of garboard butts up against the lower edge of the 1 cm rounded off låt and stem.

The lower edge of the keel-låt-stem tapers evenly from 21mm at the scarf to 13 at the stem.

Hope this was clearer.

tapsnap

12-31-2009, 07:36 AM

Although I will have to work with the situation that I have now, it would be great if you could take a picture of the side view and possibly from underneath of this area.

lagspiller

12-31-2009, 09:00 AM

I can do that when I get around making the bevel. Its been 20-25F in the boathouse for a while now and holiday modus activated weeks ago...
Will probably re-enter the normal world fairly soon.

I don't think you will have any problems with strength if you trim off and round the stem. You should probably take it down quite a bit no matter what you do - it will be hard eyeballing the fit of the board against the stem otherwise. But whatever works out easiest is the way to go.

emf

12-31-2009, 12:59 PM

This is a very interesting website http://www.eldjarnbaat.no/
You can set up a free translation on google toolbar. A lot of different norse boat projects.

tapsnap

01-01-2010, 08:58 AM

Lagspiller, I think I understand what you mean now. I've decided to work with what I have and try to fit the garboard to the stem with the rebate I cut. If it really becomes a problem I could plane it off but I'd rather not at this point.

Right now I am in New Hampshire with family over the New Year. I will get back into the shop on Saturday.

EMF thanks for the link - I was aware of this site but did not know that I could get it translated. It really is fascinating.

Happy 2010 everyone!!!!

tapsnap

01-10-2010, 09:37 PM

It probably doesn’t look like much has changed since I last posted but, as the wood shavings on the ground show, I have been working quite a bit on the stems. They were still oversized and I had to plane and scrape them down to the correct thickness and taper. I also scraped a shallow groove for the rivets in the keel which I extended as a decorative detail into the stems. I then wedged and the whole backbone assembly into the support bracing so it was plumb and straight and set up the measuring string.
I cut a piece of 1/8” ply as a template for the hals (garboard) and started fitting it to the front stem. I took angles and measurements from my 3D drawing to get the basic shape but now I am fitting it by eye. Once I get a good fit I will transfer this to the actual cedar steam bent hals. http://www.danieloates.com/faering/hals7.jpg

I made myself a "batlodd" - a traditional Norwegian boat building tool for measuring the angles of the strakes. I transferred the angles I got from the computer drawing to this tool. It provides a quick reference that records a number of angles, unlike the sliding bevel I probably would have used in the past.http://www.danieloates.com/faering/batlot8.jpg
I have a question for Lagspiller. Do you steam bend the hals plank before you shape it or do you steam bend it when it is partially shaped or do you have it almost fully shaped when you put it into the steamer?

lagspiller

01-11-2010, 02:12 PM

They are cut roughly to shape, then steamed and put in press over a form to cool before pressing into place on the boat. The form has more curve than the finished garboard because they spring back a bit when they cool and you take them out.

You don't need the båtlodd for these boats. The traditional 'angle tool' in this build is a building stick with all the measurements cut into it. Very often using coded marks so that the secrets of the builder couldn't be stolen. Today we use a chart and a yardstick. Measure from the top mark for the strake on the stem X cm back and x cm from the keel. Then measure how far to press the the strake out from that mark to the measuring string. Very easy and precise.
(have you marked where the strakes end on the stem? Can't see any marks on the stem in the photo...)

Be careful about letting the strakes 'fall' outward. That will give you trouble getting the later strakes to become vertical enough and the finished boat will 'fall outward' midships. You won't notice it much until you get to the last strake because small deviations in the lower boards add up to big deviations in the upper boards. When we put our garboards on, it should take a LOT of pressure at the outer corner (opposite end top edge of where your thumb is in the photo) to press the board down to shape. To me, it looks like you are working from the opposite direction and still holding the garboard easily with one hand. But maybe I've misread the photo.

Here you can see the measuring point drawn in on the edge of the garboard and the measurements ... the cross between the two numbers.
http://www.22kvm.net/bilder/Robaat/album/slides/100_3210.jpg
Measure from the keel to the specified height, then from the mark on the stem to your mark on the garboard and then press the garboard down to the correct distance from the measuring point to the string. It gives a triangulation where the 'lay' of the board is used to get the adjustment correct.

Like this...
http://www.22kvm.net/bilder/Robaat/album/slides/100_3212.jpg
When the measurements are correct, then you check the fit of the board against the keel. Mark the spots you have to remove more wood... take it all down and start the process over. 5-6 times of fitting the board and marking spots for planing and you are home free.

The distance from the keel to the mark changes as you adjust the fit of the board to the keel. This doesn't change a lot when working on the garboard, but from strake 2 and, on this measure changes quite a bit every time you adjust the fit of the strake to the board below.
http://www.22kvm.net/bilder/Robaat/album/slides/100_3187.jpg
If you look closely, you can see the mark on the stem for the top edge of the finished garboard... a couple of cm below the present top edge in the photo. You fix the garboard so you are sure you have enough to cut down when the entire bottom strake is finished.

We fasten the garboard at the end where you are holding it (maybe 20 degrees off vertical) with a screw & a washer, then press the opposite end up under the keel with a support... and then press the outer corner down with a long support to the strongback above. Takes a lot of pressure if you do it right.
http://www.22kvm.net/bilder/Robaat/album/slides/100_3193.jpg
The inner face of the garboard against the keel in the area you are holding it should be given about a 2 cm bevel - starting at the end - and becoming a 1 cm bevel at about the stem-keel scarf area.
PM me if you need help understanding the chart. That has all the measurments you need.

emf

01-11-2010, 07:07 PM

Hey Lagspiller, do you have any pics of the form you used to clamp your garboards on after steaming. I tried to make one with limited success.

lagspiller

01-12-2010, 07:03 AM

No, sorry. The form is on a neighbouring island.

tapsnap

01-12-2010, 08:27 AM

I got the hals template fitted last night using the batlodd method.http://www.danieloates.com/faering/templatefit1.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/templatefit5.jpg

Lagspiller, I want to use your method to check your measurements with what I have done to see how close they are. The angles I used are derived from the computer drawing I made, which in turn, come from the drawings Bernhard Faeroyvik drew in his manuscript on these boats. I want to see how close your measurements are to the ones I have been using. I understand you description in how to use the measuring chart and how to triangulate the points, but the problem I am having is understanding how you are deriving the location up the stem of the sharp point of your hals. Are you measuring up to the string? If so, what is that measurement? Is it 62.5cm for the front stem?
Thanks for all you advise. Yes, I was measuring from the other end, as you observed, and my fixed end was at the keel. My reference was the junction between the keel and the stem. I took all my measurements from there. I was trying to figure out where your reference point came from but it isn't clear to me.

I have found using the 1/8" plywood template quick to work with and easy to handle. Not knowing before I started, what kind of shape I was aiming for, I felt more at ease doing a test run with the ply. Thank you EMF

I will be pulling out some cedar soon and planing it to the final thickness. Lagspiller, is that 11mm or 12mm? I can't quite remember.

lagspiller

01-12-2010, 09:33 AM

The bottom boards are 14mm. The next two are 13mm and the top is 12mm.

Yes, measure with a plumb line from the string to the stem. The top edge of the boards at the aft stem are 11.5cm 26cm, 50cm from the string when finished, fastened and then cut down. The same measurements at the bow are 14, 30, 62. The top board (ripe) has no measurement, as it goes to the string at the stems.
Remember that the board must be fasten higher than the mark on the stem. You cut the top edge of the board down after it it is completely fitted and fastened in place. It is the last step before moving on to the next shift of boards above the bottom planks... and gives the fair curve along the length of the boat. Use a flexible batten at the measuring points along the length of the board and then adjust by eye for a nice line.

Make sure the measuring string has the correct height to the keel... measured at the lot-keel scarfs. Then mark the board heights on the stems.

Oh... one more thing before you begin on the garboards... the heartwood side of them is OUT. All other boards have heartwood side IN. This has to do with the way they curve when fitted... the tortured board should always curve in toward heartwood side.

tapsnap

01-12-2010, 04:55 PM

Wow, 14mm! My planking is exactly 14mm right now without planing. I can't remember whether I deliberately planed them to that thickness or whether it is just a happy coincidence. Either way that is one less thing to worry about.
I remembered that you had said that the garboards face cup-side out and the other strakes inward. Thanks for reminding me, but it will be a little longer before I start work on the garboards. I still need to make some adjustments to the stems.

tapsnap

01-12-2010, 10:05 PM

Lagspiller, this evening I checked your measurements with the template for hals I had shaped and bent into place based on my computer drawing. I found there were discrepancies. I checked all my angles and they seemed correct. After trying to figure out the problem with rulers and protractors, I went back to the computer. There was something just not making any sense. I finally concluded that the drawings for the 4 strake boat that you built are, in fact, very different from the three strake boat shown in Faeroyvik's book - apart from the obvious fact that two strakes make up the for the one wide strake of the Oselvars. To check this theory, I superimposed the side views of the two boats. The one in red is your boat. The one in black is the Oselvar shown in Bernhard Faeroyvik's book.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/boattransparent.jpg

You can see how far they are different. Unfortunately, I will not be able to use the measurements from your boat and must instead, rely on the measurements I gain from my computer drawing.

lagspiller

01-13-2010, 09:20 AM

Wow. That is an interesting drawing. It would be also be interesting to see a few Oselvers compared to each other. Bet they differ quite a bit, too. Honestly believe that our boats are more similar to the oselvers in our club than to the boat Færøyvik measured - especially stems look more vertical than the siluettes I see in my memory. But no two Oselvers are exactly the same, so it isn't a big surprise these differ.

Sounds like you have full control with the angles and measures.
The building techniques will be the same, though.

pcford

01-13-2010, 09:30 AM

I have always heard that Oselver garboards were never steamed in the old days.

Jay Smith is replacing the garboard(s) on my 22' racing/sailing Oselver. He took out of a 3" chunck, then forced the last bit.

Peerie Maa

01-13-2010, 12:53 PM

I remember reading an article describing Ian Oughtreds thinking in designing Elf. I am sure that he found that the boats were tailored to their purpose, sheltered water or more exposed, rowing or sailing, and that Elf is a generic compromise rather than a reworking of one specific type.
Lagspiller, when you look at the shear of the Færøyvik oselver and compare it with the height of your third streak, it is as if it was decided to increase the freeboard of a three streak boat by adding a streak, without any significant change to the run of the rest of the planking.

tapsnap

01-13-2010, 02:52 PM

Lagspiller, I think you are right. From the photos I have seen, the Oselvars that are made these days have very long gently bending stems. The drawings from Faeroyvik's book that I am basing my boat on do have more severe bends. Faeroyvik actually shows two 3 planked faerings from the Hardanger region. Here are their end views superimposed. http://www.danieloates.com/faering/oselvarsuperimposed.jpg

As you can see they are quite different. The one I am working on is shown in red. I don't have an end view of the one you are building.

tapsnap

01-13-2010, 04:37 PM

PC Ford, here is a link to someone building these boats in the traditional way you describe - with an axe http:///www.eldjarnbaat.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=28 (http://www.eldjarnbaat.no/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=28)
I doubt whether steam bending would be weaker because the amount of bend is not severe enough to start crushing wood fibers on the inside of the bend or start splintering out on the outside. I think that with moderate bends, such as these, the fibers simply move over each other and rearrange their configuration slightly. What is important for strength, whether carved or steam bent, is that the grain does not sharply run out or that there are too many flaws in the wood.

I think that much of the reason an axe was used in the past was that the builders of the past were extremely skilled at using them and an axe was the height of woodworking technology. Maybe they would have gladly used a bandsaw and a planer had they been invented. Maybe hewing a tree into a perfectly flat board to the correct thickness then steaming it into a bend, made no sense when you could just split and axe a tree with an appropriate bend in it to the correct shape and be done with it. Then there is just tradition that dictates how the boat should and shouldn't be built - that too has a powerful influence.

lagspiller

01-13-2010, 05:22 PM

Lagspiller, when you look at the shear of the Færøyvik oselver and compare it with the height of your third streak, it is as if it was decided to increase the freeboard of a three streak boat by adding a streak, without any significant change to the run of the rest of the planking.

But I think that is more due to the Færøyvik boat being a bit more a-typical for 3 strake boats built in the past 100 years. Still, they can vary quite a bit on vital measurements.
Haven't actually measured, but a lot of oselvers owners have stopped in to check out our boats - the consensus is that they are virtually the same dimensions and that the lower 2 strakes are more or less exactly the same.
But that is hard to say exactly without actually measuring. Even experienced guys can be fooled by the lines.

Faeroyvik actually shows two 3 planked faerings from the Hardanger region. Here are their end views superimposed

That shows exactly what I suspected - your garboard is much lower than on our boats. It looked too low, to my eye. Not that I say that now - you seem to have full control over what you are doing and your computer drawings are impressive. But I was a little worried for a while. But this last drawing shows clearly the design you are building is supposed to have a lower garboard. That must also mean the next strakes are wider than the widest board we used. The widest boards we used were over 38-40 cm... and at certain points we needed every cm.

You need 2 cm overlap to fasten the rivets to the board below and you need to get out of the softer wood on the outer edges of the board on both upper and lower edge. A finished board is not straight when you lay it out on the floor... the bottom edge curves up toward the middle of the length because you are bending it around a 3D curve on the boat.
It will be interesting to hear how wide your boards are in the 2nd and 3rd strake.

pcford

01-13-2010, 09:04 PM

Svensk

01-14-2010, 05:53 PM

Would it be worthwhile to use an Electronic Module - Digital Level as a Båtlodd? I have been using a 6" plastic compass attached to a board as a lodd.;)

tapsnap

01-15-2010, 08:59 AM

I think the batlodd I made is accurate enough for what I am doing. I also bought an angle finder in a local hardware store a while back, that works essentially like a batlodd. It's used in house construction. I find it useful because the bottom of it is magnetic. I like the home made one because I can quickly identify the correct angle and there is no danger of reading it incorrectly, which I tend to do a lot with a protractor.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/batlodd5.jpg

Here is where the magnetic one is useful. I messed up the transition between the keel and the stem and created a rebate where there shouldn't be one. The challenge for me now is to give this rebate a rolling bevel that matches the face of the garboard. Here, I recorded the angles from the fitted garboard along the stem at 5 degree intervals. I then mounted the magnetic batlodd onto a long firmer chisel, set the correct angle and then pushed in the chisel.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/batlodd2.jpg

I then cleaned the rolling bevel with a crank-handled chisel. I am taking it slowly so I work on one of these bevels a little every day.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/batlodd4.jpg

lagspiller

01-16-2010, 02:50 PM

I am finally back in the shop after the temp has risen to just below freezing again. It was a bit too cold these past weeks when it was -12 C.

I've finished the keel-stem scarf. I turned the entire keel over and clamped to the strongback upside down to get a better work position for the job of planing the transition from the narrower keel, cut at an angle and glued to the wider stem. The 'T' profile of the keel is first cut back to give symmetry port-starboard, then I planned where the extension of the 'T' would end on both sides of the stem. Then the stem is planed down to evenly match the narrower width of the keel... and leave that part of the stem with a slight 'T' for about 20 cm.
http://www.22kvm.net/bilder/Robaat/album/slides/scarf2.jpg

Another shot of the same area - because Tapsnap asked a while ago...
http://www.22kvm.net/bilder/Robaat/album/slides/scarf1.jpg

You can also see how I shaved the thickness of the 'T' down and gradually end it on the stem. After this, I turned the keel over and wedged it in the strongback... rounded the upper edge of the 'T' a bit and then rounded the stem (1 cm in from the edges). The 1 cm rounded edge marks the spot on the stem where the inside top edge of garboard meets the stem. That line is carried on to the underside of the 'T'. The smoother that transition is, the easier it is to fit the garboard.

http://www.22kvm.net/bilder/Robaat/album/slides/scarf4.jpg
I rounded the stem after everything else was rough finished. It is probably more common to do that before gluing, but works fine like this. The plane is the special ship's plane. The knob adjusts the curvature of the bed so it can follow the inside of any diameter circle down to about 12".

Hope this gives a good picture of how we do it, tap.

tapsnap

01-17-2010, 09:05 AM

Thanks very much for the pictures. That shows the transition very clearly. I understand exactly what you mean now. The transition I made is actually not so different. It just extends further up the stem, but feathers to nothing before the end of the garboard.
http://www.danieloates.com/faering/rebate1.jpg

I too, was using my compass plane to shape the stems originally, but I ended up using my spokeshaves more for this project. The radius is not consistent throughout the length of the stem so the plane constantly needs adjusting - it's just easier with a spokeshave I find. It looks like you can adjust the radius of your plane as you make the cutting stroke, by twisting the knob as you go. If that's the case, then your plane is probably more useful than mine.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/compassplane2.jpg

tapsnap

01-20-2010, 08:08 AM

I'm now getting ready to steam bend the garboards. I have been thinking about the kind of form that I need to build to bend these planks over. Here is what I have come up with.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/bendingjig1.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/bendingjig2.jpg

Lagspiller, let me know if this at all resembles what you use. Let me know if you have any recommendations for changes. This form over-twists the plank by 12 degrees and over-bends it by 3 inches. I tried to design something that could be reversible so I could make the bend go the other way.

lagspiller

01-21-2010, 12:35 PM

Looks good to me. Can't see how it reverses, though. Ours are done in pairs that are marked afterwards so they don't get mixed. Don't really know why, but I assume it is linked to getting the time in the steam and cooling exactly the same for both sides...

tapsnap

01-24-2010, 01:25 PM

Here are my front two garboards before bending. I'm a little apprehensive about bending them now. During the small amount of handling that it took to cut them to shape and then flexing some of the off cuts to the brink of breakage, I have become aware of how brittle Atlantic cedar is. I checked the web for how it fairs with steam bending and found that the general consensus is "not good". The planks are 14mm which is just over 9/16" thick.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/halsunbent.jpg

The one thing I do have in my favor is that the quality of this wood is very high and it has been air dried. Tomorrow I will be trying my first bend. We shall see then if I need to buy a different planking material.

tapsnap

01-25-2010, 08:49 AM

Success!!!
I steamed the first plank this morning for 35 minutes. I put the board on the jig, clamped the back and slowly pulled it over the form. Then I put on the front clamps. I didn't get the plank completely down on the form. I felt the pressure stacking up and I know from bow making that this means you are close to breakage. It's about 1/2" from being completely clamped down, but it is still about 5 degrees over-twisted. I will be leaving it clamped like this for three days or so to reduce the amount of spring-back.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/benthals2.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/benthals4.jpg

StevenBauer

01-25-2010, 08:55 AM

Nice! I didn't think the bend would be a problem. Keep it hot, be patient, no worries. :)

Steven

emf

01-25-2010, 08:56 AM

You can always soak the planks a day or two to aid the steam bending process.

I think I would go with 1/2 " planking also.

lagspiller

01-25-2010, 12:34 PM

Looks good. At this rate we will both begin fitting garboards this Saturday.

tapsnap

01-25-2010, 02:16 PM

It's a date!

lagspiller

01-30-2010, 01:44 PM

Ok, Mr. Tap...

Here's what I did today.
http://www.22kvm.net/bilder/Building%20boat%20two/slides/Shaping%20a%20garboard%20on%20the%20bench.jpg
After hanging the first garboard and marking where it needed shaping, I gave it a few loving strokes in the bench.

This is the third time it was hung... ready for fastening.
http://www.22kvm.net/bilder/Building%20boat%20two/slides/Ready%20for%20fastening.jpg
Btw... not sure I've mentioned it before, but a word of advice - always remember to use a clamp at the end of the board, after hanging it with a screw&big washer, and before you wedge the first prop between the board and the overhead strongback (at about 80 cm from the end). Otherwise, you risk splitting the board at the screw when you press the other end up to the T of the keel.

And from below...
http://www.22kvm.net/bilder/Building%20boat%20two/slides/Aft%20port%20garboard%20underneath.jpg

By the end of the day, I had 3 garboards up, screwed and klinked and the final one almost ready for fastening. Not a bad result for 8 hours of shop time. But everything was ready to go and rough shaped, and I had an experienced guy helping out today.

http://www.22kvm.net/bilder/Building%20boat%20two/slides/Starboard%20garboard%20in%20bow%20fitted%20and%20f astened%20and%20final%20garboard%20ready%20for%20k linking.jpg

I think we used two days to hang the first garboard we did last year, and we had a boat builder to consult with all the time, so I am just hoping you ended up close to getting your first up today. But you've surprised me before...
How did it go?

I've started making a web album of the second build. Been using the mobil phone camera so far this time, so the pictures are not always as clear as last year's album. They did get a little better when I discovered the flash. ;)
http://www.22kvm.net/bilder/Building%20boat%20two/index.html

tapsnap

01-30-2010, 05:34 PM

Yours is looking great! You got alot done. I, on the other hand, didn't get as far. I tried to work two matching garboards at the same time so I could fit them on the stems together. They are close but they still both need work.
http://www.danieloates.com/faering/fittingforehals4.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/fittingforehals10.jpg

As you predicted I am having a little trouble with the extended rebate that I mistakenly cut. It's difficut to see where the garboard is and isn't completely touching.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/fittingforehals11.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/fittingforehals12.jpg

The light was getting bad and the temperature was around 10 degrees F. when I stopped work.
I know you recommend fixing the pointed end and bend the garboard from that pivot, but I think I am more comfortable working from the center. I fix the board with a stick pushing up from the ground around the balancing point of the board, I line it up with a mark I drew on the stem. Then I fix the wide end with a clamp and then finally pull the point into position. Am I wrong in doing it this way?

I still do not have any rivets, so there is no rush to finish the fitting of these garboards. I am still looking for the Norwegian ones (large nail head ). I'm actually considering galvanized ones at this point. I saw that you used stainless steel screws last year to attach the garboards to the stems. Is that OK with the copper rivets? Do you fill and cover up the screw heads? I'm not too familiar with what is and what isn't OK when using different metals in salt water, I just know sometimes it can be a problem with corrosion.

lagspiller

01-31-2010, 08:11 AM

Looks like you have made fine progress.

I've never seen or read of anyone fitting the garboards from the middle as you are doing. I can't say it is wrong, but there must be a reason tradition dictates beginning at the stem. I can think of a couple considerations...

We are EXTREMELY careful about using the same screw hole every time we remove and refasten the board. That is because tiny changes (a mm is enough) in position will make changes all along the complex curve of the joint between the keel-stem and the board. On occasion, we do have to move the board. Then the new screw hole is marked to avoid confusion.

The height of the board on the stem is a critical measurement. It is really the defining measurement for where the board must be made to fit. There should also be some excess height to trim off after all the bottom boards are in place so you are sure you enough height. Seems that THAT would be a good place to start.

Finally, there is a lot of torsion on the garboard. That is easy to control when you have the entire length of the board as a 'lever'. With the garboard attached at the stem and a prop about 70-80 cm from the screw, you easily press the board end up under the keel T with your knee.

...and how are you going to do it with the next strakes? There is no 'middle' then. That part of the board slides up and down as you adjust it, overlapping the strake below. Pressing the middle of the board up and down after you have locked the ends is how you find the right height before marking and cutting the bottom edge of the board. You can't start in the middle then.

I filmed our boatbuilder hanging a garboard on my boat. That might be helpful. (The file was 50Mb in its original MP4 file and is converted to a much smaller size as a 3GP - some kind of multimedia phone file. Hope that is viewable.)

About the screws...
We haven't had any trouble with the mix of copper and stainless. And since you don't have rivets yet, you might just as well screw the entire garboard. The guys on the neighbouring boat did that, even though we have rivets. It was faster. I did mine the regular way - screws to the stem/keel joint. Then 4 two inch rivets. Don't put the last one in until you are finished with the entire bottom. That one goes through both boards in the middle of the scarf.

Oh.... and make a bench. It makes planing the boards a lot easier. You wedge the board in and straddle it.

tapsnap

01-31-2010, 09:04 AM

OK, I will take your advise and build a bench and attach the garboards at the pointed ends with screws. Sometimes it doesn't pay to question why, it's just better to do it the way it has been done before.

Is the location of these screw holes within the lap for the next plank or is it further down? I assume you will use these holes later to attach the plank permanently, so I guess the hole should be no bigger than the hole for the stainless screws I will be using. Thanks for dropping in that video. It was good to see the technique.

lagspiller

01-31-2010, 10:14 AM

I'm glad the vid worked for you.

The screw used for fixing the board while fitting is generally above the mark on the stem for the finished height of the board. IOW - the hole in the board gets cut away when you trim the board down as the final step before beginning on the next strake. At worst, it will be in the upper 2 cm area that is covered by the next strake. Sometimes you have to move the fix point several times as you fit the garboard (for example, if the original roughed out shape is a bit too rough) and you end up with 3-4 screw holes in the stem. But they are all covered by the next strake, so it doesn't matter.

When permanantly fixing the plank, begin marking the first screw 3 cm vertical down from where the upper egde of the finished (cut down) garbord will be and about 1.5-2cm from the bottom edge. That will bring it out of the 2 cm rebate area where the next strake overlaps. Then mark screws every 7-8 cm along the bottom edge of the garboard.

When we drill the holes for the screws, we just drill through the garboard- not into the stem. Make sure the hole is the same size (or even bigger) than the screw. Otherwise, you risk splitting the board. Same applies when attaching the garboard permanantly. Screws about 7-8 cm apart, countersunk and be careful not to over-tightened or the board splits. Not critical, but it doesn't look nice.

It isn't supposed to be necessary to use any mastic in the joint, but we use a dab of the favorite goo (Tec 7 - not unlike your 5200) in this joint just to be 110% sure of no leaks. Nobody can see it, so we can easily pretend it isn't there.

Remember to make the scarf before fastening the garboard. We use an 8 cm scarf and have a pattern handy for all the scarfs. The garboard should be cut at slightly less than 90 degrees so the opening between the bow and stern garboard is slightly wider at the outer edge than at the keel. That way, you can save a bottom board if you make a mistake by planing off the edge at the keel. Scarf directions vary, but the tradition for the boats we are building are to make the scarf in the direction of water flow... like this \:::::\ (bow left-stern right). The Oselver is different... there the scarfs are opposite - widest on the outside.... like this /:::::\. Very little difference at rowing speed, but it seems most logical to me to let the scarf point away from the water flow. It also is easier to make the bottom board scarf - just plane the 8 cm bow scarf, wedge the bow end in place and mark the inner edge of the after scarf with a pencil.

lagspiller

02-07-2010, 07:04 AM

How are you doing?
I managed to split the garboard on the port bow yesterday, while cutting the scarf. That is the last job before riveting in place. A bit disheartening after using a couple of hours getting it from close to perfect fit. So, instead of getting the bottom boards in as planned, I packed up and went home with less done than when I began the day. Ach, the trials of boat building.

But today, imagining how good it will be when I DO get that board in place...

tapsnap

02-07-2010, 08:08 AM

Sorry to hear about your split garboard. Is it something you could glue together again? I'm terrified of splitting one of these boards as I do not have any spare material. It would probably set me back weeks before I found a suitable replacement.
I didn't get a lot done this week on the boat itself, but I steam bent the back two garboards and made a horse to hold the boards whilst planing. I was surprised how well the horse works. Just drop in the plank and it secures itself. Very fast and efficient. The only worry I had was the sticks damaging the edges of the boards. I put a piece of canvas in between to pad it.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/horse6.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/horse5.jpg

I have been rough shaping the back two garboards, but I still need to do the final fitting on all four boards. I'm quite busy right now with work so I can only work on this project now and then for the next week or two. I will try to keep up.

lagspiller

02-07-2010, 08:25 AM

Taking your time might be a wise idea. Word here is that Mustad is just about to crank up their rosehead copper rivet machine. We were told to expect delivery in 2 weeks. One of our guys will call the factory this week to get confirmation...

My board split because we press the board more or less flat when planing the scarf. Makes it a lot easier to get the scarf perfect. Best guess - since mine were steamed many months ago, they had dried more than was good for that method. Worked fine with the first three - the fourth said 'bang' without any warning. If I had stopped when there was a cm of curve left, it wouldn't have happened.

It might be possible to glue, but with all the torsion in that area I didn't care to take any chance. I won't be building many, and when I first do it - it might as well be the best I can make it. I'll take the extra time and put an 'unblemished' board in instead.

chainyank

02-07-2010, 05:12 PM

Wow the camaraderie here is really something. You are both doing a great job, and I enjoy watching your progress. I also enjoyed the last Oselvar build thread, glad to see that you have some vets of this build to look to.

tapsnap

02-24-2010, 08:44 AM

I had hoped to be a little further along by now, but I have been rather busy these past few weeks with work. Anyway, I finally got the front garboards fitting well and after a lot of checking, I riveted and screwed them in place. Before doing so, I cut the scarfs on the ends to a 1:5 slope and with a rebate plane, I cut the gains. I also scraped in that detail on the edge. It's a bit wobbly because I had to do it freehand to avoid damaging the sharp edge. I took a strand of caulking cotton and gooped it up with pine tar and laid that in the seams before closing them up.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/firstrivet2.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/firstrivet3.jpg

As you can see, I finally found some traditional Norwegian boat nails. They are galvanized not copper. They will not last as long, but I'd rather use these than the small head nails you get over here.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/firstrivet7.jpg

lagspiller

02-24-2010, 03:16 PM

Looks nice. I've been wondering how you were faring.

We use an 8 cm wide scarf overlap. A pattern cut out of huntonite makes the measuring fast and easy. Two strands of cotton caulking dipped in linoil on the scarfs.

The bottom board is a lot easier. Cut and plane the angle on the edge so it fits tight along the keel. Then hang the board under the hals with a couple of boat clamps... and mark the edge of the bow scarf (top photo in your last series). Then drop it, use the pattern to mark the scarf, plane, and then jam that in place in the bow scarf and clamp up under stern scarf. Be sure to measure your heights to the center string (or use your protractor-angle trick) because this last scarf sets the shape of the hull. Then mark the stern scarf and cut it and plane the scarf - this time leaving 1-2 mm thickness at the outer edge. That makes it more certain of getting a good finished edge. It sands down easy when you turn the hull. Be sure to lay the pattern on the correct side of the mark. Don't ask how I learnt how easy that mistake happens. Jam the bottom board place again, check your heights again and rivet.
It is really fast to do and gives great satisfaction.

Last step is to use long, flexible battens to lay out the upper edge of the entire first strake and cut it down to finished height with a saber saw. Tweek the batten to give it a nice even curve along its entire length.

You are going to enjoy this.

(On your next strake, don't cut the rebate until after you have cut the finished and riveted board down to height. This is done with the boards in place on the hull.)

Bob Triggs

02-24-2010, 04:09 PM

Tapsnap, Where did you get those nails???!!!

tapsnap

02-24-2010, 09:09 PM

Bob Triggs

02-24-2010, 09:23 PM

lagspiller

02-25-2010, 09:11 AM

Lagspiller, I'm not ready to work on the bottom board yet. I still need to fit the back garboards, but thanks for the tips. I've got to say that it was satisfying riveting the front ones in. Where are you with your boat? Any pictures?

Bob Triggs, I have been in contact with Chip Stulen from Faering Design for some time, trying to get the copper versions of these nails. He had these galvanized nails left over from his boat building apprenticeship in Norway. He was kind enough to sell them to me. I had to get the roves sent to me from Norway by a company called Carl Faannessen. I believe they sell these nails too, but they have sold out of the copper ones. The nails are made in Sweden by a company called Mustadfors (Mustad).
Faannessen is an excellent, traditional small shop in Bergen. That is where I buy a lot of my boat products and where we got our rivets. As I wrote earlier, Mustad (actually a norwegian company - inventer of the industrial barbed fish hook!) began a production run of the copper rivets we need a couple of weeks ago. They should arrive in Faannessen's shop within 2 weeks now. I can help you out if you still want the rivets and need assistance in getting them. But I would also expect the shop will send them if you ask.

I'm a bit ahead of you and working on the second strake. Didn't take any pictures, cause I didn't want to stress you.

heimlaga

02-25-2010, 10:03 AM

I am impressed by your work...both of you.

Thanks for the teaching. I too learn a lot. Though I have no project going on right now there are plenty of small tricks I will remember for the future.

tapsnap

03-06-2010, 02:55 PM

A little progress, though not much that you will notice. I got the back garboards fitted and riveted and screwed into place. I decided to bevel the back garboards the other way. It seemed to make more sense this way, so that the water isn't moving into the scarf. In reality it probably doesn't make any difference, but I noticed that a lot of boats shown in the "Inshore Craft of Norway" showed the scarfs aligned like this.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/secondgarboard3.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/secondgarboard6.jpg

I realized that I do not have a wide enough plank for the bottom boards. They need to be 15" wide also. I have found a place about 2 hours from here that has some Atlantic white cedar flitches, some of which might be wide enough. I won't know until I actually go there. So this week I will take a gamble and drive down to go and see them.

lagspiller

03-07-2010, 08:10 AM

Same as us regarding scarf directions. You will also find that makes it easier to fit the board because the scarf in the bow end holds the bottomboard in place while you measure the stern end scarf. IOW - do one at a time, begin in the bow. Check above for more advice before you begin sawing...

I haven't got any farther either. Cut the rebates and began shaping the after second strake last saturday. When I found it was too narrow toward midships I put it aside and began again. Then I split the next two boards I worked on and called it a day after cutting away the offending keel support that was getting in the way while pressing the board into place for measuring. I can probably save the second board by turning it around, but I was travelling this week and haven't been in the shop.

tapsnap

03-07-2010, 09:22 AM

Sorry, to hear about your difficulties. Perhaps I will buy a couple of extra boards if they are wide enough, just in case I have the same problem. I really have no wood to spare. The large stack I bought last spring will be great for another boat but it's all too narrow for this one. I went a little crazy cutting off all the sapwood after my beetle infestation. Now I am regretting being quite so zealous.

lagspiller

03-07-2010, 11:02 AM

A board or two is bound to pop and I think I have figured out what the problem was, so all is good. 'Difficult' is not having enough materials. A couple of extra boards in reserve is always a good idea.

lagspiller

03-14-2010, 02:40 PM

Had time to do any more? We had a week of vacation here and I didn't get back into the shop until yesterday. But I had a great day.

Made the stern boards for the second strake finished for fastening yesterday. I was so inspired, I went back today, riveted them in place and roughed out both two sides of the bow boards. They are just hung losely with a screw in the top of the stem and pressed into shape.

http://www.22kvm.net/bilder/Building%20boat%20two/slides/baaten%20i%20mars%20006.jpg
This shot from the stern gives a good impression of the shape of the hull already. Tap! Note that the top edge is still rough with a raw bark edge. Can't cut that down until the entire strake is finished and you can eyeball a fair line with a flexible batten.

http://www.22kvm.net/bilder/Building%20boat%20two/slides/baaten%20i%20mars%20002.jpg
This shot looking aft from a point above the bow stem. The camera angle 'flattens' the boat. I won't have time to go back until next weekend, so the bow boards are pressed in place so they can use the time to begin to find their curves.

I didn't steam the aft boards, but I think I probably will steam these. They are extremely wide in the bow. About 40 cm, uncut. You need pretty wide boards for this strake.

tapsnap

03-14-2010, 06:20 PM

That looks great. I am looking forward to getting onto my next boards too. This week I found more planks for the bottom boards so I was able to continue work on this boat on Friday. I planed them up and got them fitted and partially riveted, but then my wife and I had to leave for the weekend to celebrate her brother's Birthday in New Hampshire. I got back a few hours ago. I will continue riveting tomorrow morning and then I'll put up some photos.

By the way, the planks I bought are nice but cost much more than I had previously paid.

tapsnap

03-15-2010, 12:51 PM

Here are the photos I promised.

Cutting the scarfs

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/botnabord1.jpg

Fitting the boards.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/botnabord2.jpg

Tarring the scarfs with pine tar and cotton caulking.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/botnabord3.jpg

Tarring the seams.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/botnabord4.jpg

Riveted in place.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/botnabord5.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/botnabord6.jpg

lagspiller

03-15-2010, 02:39 PM

Very nice.
Feels good, doesn't it?

tapsnap

03-16-2010, 09:29 AM

Yes, it does feel good. And it feels great to blend in those bottom boards to the garboards.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/blending2.jpg

http:///www.danieloates.com/faering/blending5.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/blending7.jpg

I still have to check my measurements, but I noticed how much depends on eying the lines. One stroke with the plane makes a noticeable difference. Every time I make a stroke, I have to stand back and eye it up again.

lagspiller

03-16-2010, 12:15 PM

Use a long flexible batten, too... 3-4 meters. It helps you get a natural curve for the next board to follow.

Building this kind of boat is often the opposite thinking compared to other methods. 'Modern' builds have pre-formed boards that shape the hull. Here, the unformed bits are hung in the natural shapes that follow the lines of the hull... and then the lines are drawn and the parts are formed and cut to fill that spot on the hull. 5 That makes it very important to let the hull and the material decide on each particular boat where the lines go.

Philosophically, a very different approach to boatbuilding that takes a while to understand.

tapsnap

03-16-2010, 09:36 PM

So Lagspiller, can you outline the steps to hanging the next plank. I am presuming that after achieving fair lines on the garboard strakes, you cut the bevels for the laps, then rough cut the aft strake, steam it and bend it into the form of the previous strake and clamp it there until cool. Then proceed to shape it until it fits correctly. Is this correct or am I wildly wrong?

lagspiller

03-17-2010, 09:56 AM

Not far off, that. A few 'heads-ups'...

After you get the fair line marked and cut... scratch the profile on the inner top edge. You will do this a lot, so make a profile if you don't have one already. You can grind an old plane bit down to the right shape. The deepest part of the profile should be about 1/2 inch from the edge of the board.

Then cut the notches at the stem ends of the lower board... rebates? Don't remember the term. Nakke. I think you have already done that.

Rough shape the AFT board to fit the stem. You don't have to get too close for the first hanging, but make sure you have enough height on the stem and enough to overlap the board below by a couple of inches.

Cut a 3 cm bevel where the board will butt up against the stem. Drill a screwhole slightly larger than the screw about 2-3 cm from the top and right at the edge of the bevel.

Mark a 2.5 (one inch) band along the entire outer edge of the lower board and plan off a slight bevel that does not pass the mark. Most at the upper edge - nothing at the pencil mark. You will probably have to lay the edge most midships, but it is better to be careful until you see where the next board stands proud and then plane more.

Fasten the board so the edge of the bevel is just covered by the inner edge of the stem. Use a big washer on the screw. There is a lot of pressure on the screwhole. Use a boat clamp over the board & stem to press the 'point' of the board to the stem. This spreads the load to avoid splitting.

With the other end of the board well away from the side of the boat, put a brace between the top edge of the board and your strongback, about 80 cms from the stem.

Press the loose end of the board up to the bottomboard, using your knee as support. The board will twist out near the stem. A big boat clamp holds the board loosely while you check angles (heights to the string) and make adjustments. You will probably have to move the brace to press the board out more until you know where to set it up.

If you are going to steam the board, this is the time to do it. When you are sure the screw is in the right spot and there is enough board in all directions, steam for a good half hour. Then press it in place in a holy hurry and let it cool.

You will probably have to mark and take the down at this point. You need to check that there is enough width at your measuring points after you have pressed the board into the right angles (or heights to the string). The measurments change along the entire length every time you adjust one spot... and the board slides down more the harder you press it out at the stern, so measure everything often, and at least every time you press the board out. The problem area to watch is the middle. It is easy to end up with a wide enough board, but where too much is pressed down under the lap. If that happens, you have to move the fastening point up on the stem. Be aware that the lower edge of the board at the stem comes down quite a bit when you press it in place, so don't worry too much if it looks like there might not be enough to reach the 'nakke'.

When you are happy the board has the right heights along the entire length, mark the line on the board at the top of the board below and along the stem. Take it down, add the overlap to the lower edge (make a 3-4 inch long, 2.5 cm wide pattern out of a bit of wood)... and then cut the lower edge.

Once you have done that, you just hang, mark, take down, plane, re-hang... until it sits tight along the entire lap and the stem. Use your finger to feel for openings along the underside length.

When it fits perfectly, scratch the profile on the lower outside. Use the inner profile to 'aim' the rivet holes, about 15 cm between each, in the deep part of the profile. Be careful not to put a rivet where you plan a frame later.

We use two cotton threads dipped in linseed oil. One over and one under the rivets. There is a trick to it, but ask when you get there.

Hope this gives a good idea of the process.

tapsnap

03-17-2010, 11:14 AM

Thank you so much for the tips. That takes a lot of the uncertainty out of the process. I'm not ready to hang the boards yet. I still have to do some fairing to the lines and some hand planing on two boards that are a little wavy in their thickness.

tapsnap

03-25-2010, 09:05 PM

Following your instructions, I've been slowly progressing a little every day. Unfortunately, I have had to take a little more off the bottom board than I had wanted to, in order to get fair lines. Overall I am about 2cm narrower on both bottom boards than I should have been, according to the original drawing. So I went back to my computer drawing and made some adjustments to some angles and dimensions. The photo shows me planing the bevel to the new angle.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/cuttingbevels.jpg

Having made the adjustments, I started hanging the next boards. I initially made a thin plywood template and discovered that the board is pretty much a straight 13 1/2" wide plank with little curvature. In reality, I made the board taper out so it is about 3cm wider at the end near the middle of the boat.
I located the position of the holding screw and fixed it with a wooden backing "washer".

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/borebord2.jpg

I then fired up the steamer and steamed for half an hour. Pressing the board into shape was easier than I thought. I had feared a split for sure.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/borebord1.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/borebord3.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/borebord4.jpg

I was really pleased with the way the boards bent. It looks like there shouldn't be too much to plane off. I am leaving these boards now held in place on the boat for a few days until they dry into place. I probably will get back to working on them on Sunday.

I am coming to realize how elegant building a boat in this manner really is. It's such a completely different experience to the epoxy and plywood method.

pcford

03-25-2010, 10:30 PM

My hat is off to you sir.
I own a 22ft. Oselver. It needed garboard replacement. Though I've done boat restoration for over thirty five years, I was not confident in my ability to do the work. I had a boatwright, Jay Smith of Anacortes, whose is conversant with the Scandinavian building techniques, do the job for me!
They are wonderful boats...very simple yet very refined at the same time.

lagspiller

03-26-2010, 06:59 AM

2 cm is really no problem and you will be able to take it all back in the next strakes if you want to. Finding the beautiful line is much more important - because in this case, the aestetic line is also the simple and effective curve for the next strake. From what you write, it sounds like you have found it.

On this second strake, the aft boards are the longest on our boats... they pass the midships mark by about 30 cm (by memory).
Can't really tell from your photos, but they look shorter on your boat. Or have you begun at the bow? Not sure how much difference it really makes as long as you are careful about spreading the scarfs. If you have begun at the bow, you will have to let the scarf go the other way or you make trouble for yourself in getting the scarf measurement spot on.

I'm also extremely impressed that you are managing this without some hands-on help or having seen it done. That is a very good trick I don't think many could manage.

tapsnap

03-26-2010, 08:35 AM

Thanks for the encouragement. Actually, Lagspiller, the information that you and others have given me has clarified so much of the whole process for me. It has almost been like taking a class in boat building with you....an online class.
According to the Oselvar drawing that I am working from, in Bernhard and Oystein Faeroyvik's book "Inshore craft of Norway", the aft mid- strake is the short one. I guess it doesn't really make that much difference.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/oselvarside.jpg

I am looking forward to fitting and riveting these boards in place.

lagspiller

03-26-2010, 02:08 PM

Oh.... welll..... ahhhh.... in that case.... we must be amazing instructors. :D

lagspiller

03-29-2010, 09:47 AM

An inspiration photo, tap. One boat is already turned over. The other four are in various stages. I've been working mostly alone this winter and am more or less a strake behind the nearest boat.
http://22kvm.net/bilder/Building%20boat%20two/slides/The%20rest%20at%20Palm%20Sunday.jpg

tapsnap

03-31-2010, 09:10 PM

OK, I'm at the point where I could start riveting on these two planks. Scarfs are cut and the bevel fits well. I just need to scratch in the edge profile. Lagspiller, you had said I should ask about the little trick you have for laying in the cotton caulking when I got to this stage. I hope it's not as messy as the method I have been using.

Anyway, I'll probably work on the riveting over the weekend. I'll put up pictures when I'm done. Your boats are coming along well.

lagspiller

04-01-2010, 12:29 PM

Messy is hard to avoid when you fool around with soaked cotton caulking.
But we use raw linseed oil - not pitch. Considerably less mess and the stuff you smear on the boat board soaks in in short time...

We lay two threads - one under and one over the rivets. Our trick is to first drill and set all the rivets partially in the holes. Then lay the two, double-strand cotton caulk threads out, open the clamps a bit and then use a fine wedge to open between the boards. Begin at the stem. At each rivet, drop the rivet and push the lower strand under until you see the rivet on the correct side of the cotton caulk. After you get a few rivets done, press the top strand of caulk in place and tighten the clamp enough so the strand doesn't fall out the bottom. We also use a stripe or two of a semi-permanent mastic along the stem joint - no cotton caulk there. Ours is Tec7... but I think that is pretty much the same as one of the 3M products. Cleans off much easier than Sikaflex.

Riveting the scarf is the last thing you do. Remember to check your hull angles before drilling the holes. Move the rivets 1 cm off-center towards the outside scarf edge. 2 strands of caulk. We also use line or two of Tec7.

Thomas McGaffey

04-05-2010, 12:09 PM

Inspiring boat! I am about to start planking an Ian Oughtred faering...with Ian's help we stretched the design of the "Elfyn" from 16 to 18 feet.

My question to you about your boat is "how deep is the keel under the hull? From photos it looks to be about 4"...I want the same depth of keel as you are using...probably use a sprit rig and don't want to a) mess up the design with a centerboard, and b) be able to sail at least slight to windward.

Will appreciate your advice.

Thomas McGaffey

Peerie Maa

04-05-2010, 12:24 PM

Peerie Maa is a Shetland model 18' over the stems, rigged to sail. She has hollow garboards making a total of 8" below the bottom boards. The Oselver boats that Elf is based on have rise of floor in the bottom boards, so you might get away with 6 or 7".
I would also be interested in Lagspiller's advice from his racing experience.

tapsnap

04-05-2010, 02:15 PM

The keel is a "T" shape in cross section, made from a single piece. The bottom of the "T" is 10cm which is about 4"

lagspiller

04-05-2010, 03:49 PM

I haven't been active for some years, so I don't want to come across as some kind of Oselver expert. But I can help with some info. The racing boats add an extra 'sail keel'. I had to look up the rule because I was uncertain of the permitted depth... which was understandible after I checked the rule book.

E.1 Kjøl / Finne

E.1.1 Klassene: A - B - D - E - H - K - L
I tillegg til båtens normale kjøl er det tillatt å bruke ekstra kjøl (stråkjøl/finnekjøl) etter eget ønske,
uten at dette derved tilfører båten ballast.
Den ekstra kjølen skal være fast montert og festet til kjøldraget, enten ved hjelp av bolter gjennom
kjølstokk og/eller band, eller ved hjelp av metallbånd/plater, som festes med skruer/bolter, på
utsiden av kjøldrag og ekstrakjøl.

The rule is there is no rule - sort of.... 'It is permitted to use an extra keel as you wish [IOW - whatever you want], as long as it does not add ballast. It must be bolted fast to the keel. Generally, the sail keels I have seen add about 4-6 extra inches of depth for a couple of meters near the center of the boat.

The Oselver goes quite well to windward even with a sprit rig. Not as high as my 22 sq.m., but I only noticed that when I followed the fleet in my sq.m. once instead of racing one time. When you are in the boat, it feels like it goes pretty much the same as any boat to windward.

The biggest difference is in tacking. It is easy to lose lots of ground and make no headway at all if your tacking technique is lacking. The long keel makes going about slow and the light weight gives little momentum to carry you through past the eye of the wind. A good crew does it without losing much ground. A poor crew often doesn't make it around at all.

Here's the link to the rulebook. Sorry it is norwegian only. But an online translator and the drawings toward the end might help.
http://mildebatlag.org/oselvarklubben/Klasseregler_Oselvar-28nov2000.pdf

Peerie Maa

04-05-2010, 03:57 PM

Thanks Lagspiller, that is interesting. Does that mean the the racing Oselvers are not ballasted at all?
I ask as all the bigger Shetland model racing boats were ballasted with lead, until the current Maid class were developed. Peerie Maa is slightly larger than the Maids and I am not certain whether she was built for ballast or not.

As with any long keeled boat, Peerie will only tack if you hold the jib aback until she is through the wind.

lagspiller

04-05-2010, 04:09 PM

Peerie Maa

04-05-2010, 04:28 PM

Thanks for that advice. I thought that Peerie Maa might be small enough to manage without.

lagspiller

04-10-2010, 10:32 AM

tapsnap

04-10-2010, 10:44 AM

Since my last post, I fitted and riveted the back middle boards into place. The seams are caulked with a single cotton strand and pine tar. I decided to go with the single strand rather than the double and I used a slightly different technique to the one you described for me, Lagspiler. I tacked a small nail to either end of the plank on the outside and stretched the tarred strand between them. There is no sweep to the board so this fixed the strand just to the side of the nailing line. The seams have a very slight hollow which I scraped in after I had planed the correct bevel. I then fitted the board into the correct position. I then start riveting.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/frontborebord1.jpg

Rather than attaching the hood ends with screws, I used nails. I have seen this done on other Norwegian boats and I preferred the look.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/frontborebord6.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/frontborebord8.jpg

I also roughly shaped and steamed the port front middle board into place. My starboard plank for the front is not quite wide enough so I am on the hunt for another 17" Atlantic white cedar board with no sapwood.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/frontborebord5.jpg

In the mean time, after this board drys into place, I will work on fitting it.

Mrleft8

04-10-2010, 11:25 AM

A little newsflash that might interest readers of this thread living in NYC and parts north area. Our instructor told me today that he is finishing up an 'IKEA Boat' for some big boat show somewhere north of NYC on and around June 28th. I tossed out a few names at him, but he hadn't paid much attention to the geography yet. Maybe in Connecticut? He was in Brest, France a few years ago and built a boat during the wooden boat festival then. This time it is northeast USA that gets the travelling road show. Maybe someone here knows which show I am talking about....

He called it IKEA because he will be putting a boat together at the show that he has built here using wing nuts instead of rivets, then flat packing for transport to the show. He will be showing how they are made and answering questions as he puts it together again.

Tap, you ought to put this date in your calender.That show your instructor told you about would almost certainly be the "WBS" (Wooden Boat Show) at Mystic, Connecticut.

Since my last post, I fitted and riveted the back middle boards into place. The seams are caulked with a single cotton strand and pine tar. I decided to go with the single strand rather than the double and I used a slightly different technique to the one you described for me, Lagspiler. I tacked a small nail to either end of the plank on the outside and stretched the tarred strand between them. There is no sweep to the board so this fixed the strand just to the side of the nailing line. The seams have a very slight hollow which I scraped in after I had planed the correct bevel. I then fitted the board into the correct position. I then start riveting.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/frontborebord1.jpg

Rather than attaching the hood ends with screws, I used nails. I have seen this done on other Norwegian boats and I preferred the look.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/frontborebord6.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/frontborebord8.jpg

I also roughly shaped and steamed the port front middle board into place. My starboard plank for the front is not quite wide enough so I am on the hunt for another 17" Atlantic white cedar board with no sapwood.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/frontborebord5.jpg

In the mean time, after this board drys into place, I will work on fitting it. Very nice work Tap. I guess you can't contact Ray Connor through the WBF until the private messaging is restored. If I see him I'll find out if he has a piece that'll work for you.

pcford

04-10-2010, 12:05 PM

No, no ballast at all. Just crew. It can be quite exhillerating in a good blow. I once was started in 18 sec/meters because the organizers needed one more race for the race in the series to be qualified. That was a hairy ride. I've also been in boats that have filled to the gunwales that we have managed to keep upright and sail to lee of the nearest skerry for some bucket work. Don't know how those saves would have panned out if the boat had ballast...

Like you say, backing the jib at the right time and right amount is the basic trick. Done right, the boat swings sweetly across the wind without losing all forward momentum.

I have a 22ft. Oselver; Jay Smith recently replaced a couple garboards on her.

Jay apprenticed in Norway; Jay identified my boat as a racing model. When I first got the boat...way back in the mists of time when puppy dogs were the oldest thing on earth, it had a ballast keel. The keel deadwood was about 6ft. long, but it had about 75 100lbs of lead in it. I assumed that this was a latter day addition and removed it. It did fine without it. She does heel over a good way but then hardens up....As was suggested, backing the jib is often required.

tapsnap

04-10-2010, 05:56 PM

Today a neighbor was cutting down trees in his yard. In exchange for some shop time he let me have a couple of pieces of red oak that probably would have ended up as firewood but might be useful to me.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/redoak1.jpg

lagspiller

04-10-2010, 06:11 PM

Don't know the wood, but those crotches are exactly what you would use for rongene... the 'frames' at the stems...

Mrleft8

04-10-2010, 07:08 PM

Not good boat wood, but if you soak it in cuprinol or somesuch for a few weeks, it'll probably serve.

tapsnap

04-11-2010, 07:44 AM

Lagspiller, I missed your post about your instructor coming over to the USA to give a demonstration. I will definetely make plans to go and see him. Mystic is just over two hours from here. I was wanting to attend anyway. Is there any way of confirming with him that it is the wooden boat show at Mystic Connecticut? By the way, those crotches are red oak, not red ore. My typing is pretty bad.

emf

04-11-2010, 10:19 AM

Very nice work tapsnap! I wish my early efforts in boat building were that nice.

I would not be afraid of using red oak in an open boat. Coat it well with linseed and pine tar.

I sure wish I could make it to the Mystic boat show. I'd love to see the Norse boat deminstation. I think he should be required to attend the Portownsend show too. It's only fair.;)

lagspiller

04-11-2010, 02:06 PM

I will hound him until he bothers to check his ticket.

tapsnap

04-19-2010, 12:02 PM

Lagspiller, I have a question about the way the grain faces on the planking. You had said that the grain must cup inwards on the upper planks and outward on the garboards. How important is this? I have a wide plank that I could use for the starboard middle plank but the grain cups outward rather than inward. I port middle plank cups inward. Is it important for balance of the boat to have them both cupping inward?

lagspiller

04-19-2010, 04:26 PM

I think experience taught boatbuilder here that boards split more often if the side toward the tree center was stretched and the other side compressed. That is why the garboards are the only boards where the outer side of the board is used inside the boat. They are the only boards that have the special hollowed curve. All the other boards curve the other direction. The curve should always be toward the core of the tree.
This is probably absolutely most important on boards getting the most torsion. And with boards cut near the center of the tree (long, flat tree rings), it might not make too much difference. If the board was obviously cut far from the center (the tree rings near vertical when you look at the end of the board) it probably is more important to follow the rule.

If you are talking about the second strake when you say 'middle board', then you are working on the boards with most torsion in the build except for the garboards.

Is the problem width at one end if you turn the board 180 degrees (end over end)? On the second strake, you need the widest end at the stems. On the third strake, the widest end is in the middle of the boat. But we also have a fourth strake. If you are going for three, you will probably need really wide board ends at the stems all the way up.

tapsnap

04-19-2010, 10:32 PM

Thanks, I was afraid there would be some compelling reason for doing it that way. Unfortunately, I will have to continue my search for that perfect piece of wood. It may be quite some time before I post again.

lagspiller

04-20-2010, 04:30 AM

If the boards are not too expensive, it might be an idea just to try. The worst thing that can happen is that you might have to do it over again - but that isn't exactly an unknown problem anyway. I have had to re-make boards more than once - even after they have been riveted in place.

Another thing is that you are using a differenent wood. Yours could be more or less prone to splitting. You won't know unless you try.

My most recent problem was by being over-careful. I had the 3rd strake fitted and formed and didn't want to risk it splitting after rivetting when it gets cut down - so I steamed two of them while finishing up the other two. Half an hour in the box, and they came out looking like a fried potato peel. They cupped several cm along the entire length - outwards. Gave the boat a 'very nice flare', but the seams along the outer lower edge were suddenly a good cm away from sitting tight to the board below. Clamped them in place hoping they would find their form again as they dried... but they still looked like cheese doodles after an hour. So it was back to the material pile and find new boards. Set me back half a day.

tapsnap

05-01-2010, 06:07 PM

Well, I 'm still looking for another wide plank for the front starboard middle strake. No luck so far. I did glue up 2 remaining 12’ planks edge to edge to make a board wide enough for this strake and it was perfect – you could barely see the resorcinol glue line and the grain was almost seamless, but then I screwed it up by cutting the hood end on the wrong side. Measure twice. Anyway I did rivet the other one in place. Here are the results.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/1stfrontstrake15.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/1stfrontstrake10.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/1stfrontstrake18.jpg

Here are some of the tools I used.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/1stfrontstrake13.jpg

lagspiller

05-02-2010, 01:19 PM

You are doing great. I am full of admiration at your progress.

Your mistake reminds me of one of my own. I've got a board stored for use on this boat that was a perfect fit for the first boat... until the absolutely last, usually extremely easy job. I planed the scarf on the wrong side of the line.:rolleyes: These things happen to us 1st timers when we are full of dopamin as a board is completed and the joy of riveting is at hand.

You should consider setting some props up under the boards to relieve some of the pressure if your hunt for materials draws out. As a general rule, you should do both sides at about the same time because the forces cancel out then. With an imbalance of force (one more board) pressing on the keel over a week or more, it can slowly press the boat slightly out of true.

tapsnap

05-02-2010, 05:34 PM

Thanks for the advice. I had suspected that working in pairs would be the best approach, but I had already steamed the first board in place and had it propped above and below. I figured the that the props would have the same tendency to distort the balance of the boat, so I went ahead and riveted it in place. So far there is not too much distortion, but I will check it daily. I am also considering throwing a bucket of water on the concrete floor every day below the boat so the evaporation keeps the boards supple.

tapsnap

12-09-2010, 10:05 PM

Hmm.... -10 degrees C in the workshop.... Must be time to begin work on the boat again.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/edgeplane6.jpg

Yes, it's been more than 6 months since I last worked on this boat. It's time to get moving on it again. Throughout the spring, summer and fall I have been looking for plank of atlantic white cedar that was going to be wide enough for my middle plank. I found a guy named Moses in North Carolina in July who said he had exactly what I was looking for and would sell me a couple of planks from a couple of exceptionally wide and clear logs for my boat. "The best lumber he had seen in 20 years" he said. I just had to wait for him to mill them. I was so excited! Well, I waited and waited.... and waited and waited. Summer passed. Every now and then I would email or call to see if there was any progress. "Any day now", was always the reply. September,October then November went by. Always, "next week" or "after this next job". Then one day he stopped returning my calls and emails. Call after call, email after email my fears began to turn to acceptance. I figured, either he never had it in the first place or he sold it to someone else. Early on in our conversations he mentioned he supplied a lot of boat builders but mainly for strip building. A school up in Maine is a big client of his. Damn, it kills me to think a 17" wide white cedar board was sold to one of his clients who cut it up into 1" strips. Should be a crime!
Anyway I decided to try a different approach and what you see in the photo is me planing the edge of a narrower board which I will be gluing to another to form a board wide enough. Not really what I wanted to do, but hey; I could be waiting for another 6 months.

pcford

12-09-2010, 10:55 PM

Tapsnap...
The middle planks on my Oselvar were cut from a chunk about 21-22 inches wide. Never understood this since Europe is not known for huge virgin trees. Jay Smith, who is building a Viking ship up in Anacortes explained to me that they get these wide plank ends out of the end of the tree closest to the ground...where it flares out. In other words you don't need a plank which is 17" long for the full length...just at the stem. ...this suggests that perhaps someone with an Alaska mill might be persuaded to get the plank out for you from a likely log. Hope I made some sense.

Good Luck!!! Great job!

A.Greever

12-10-2010, 05:04 AM

Is the boat still true?

tapsnap

12-10-2010, 07:36 AM

The plank has to be 16" at one end and taper down to about 14". It's 11'4" long. No sapwood can be used either. As far as I can tell, the boat is still true . I took the precaution of propping the planked side to counteract its pull.

lagspiller

12-10-2010, 01:55 PM

Ha. Nice to see you again.
We ran out of steam as the spring arrived and haven't got our act together again yet. We have 3 boats finished to the point of adding the frames. Won't go into the shop until some time after christmas. But I did make a very nice photo book out of the project.

Seems strange you can't find wide enough boards. Is the choice of wood the problem? (no idea how large cedar will generally grow)

tapsnap

12-10-2010, 07:15 PM

The problem with AWC is that although the tree is often wide at the base, it tapers quickly and getting a board 12' long that is 15" wide at the narrow end is difficult... especially if you can't use the sapwood.

pcford

12-10-2010, 07:20 PM

One thing to consider...if you use a parallel side plank...obviously the grain is going to run out and be likely to split...

It occurs to me that the planks on these boats could be considered "grown planks."

I really don't know what I am talking about. You might want to try a consultation with Jay Smith.

tapsnap

02-16-2011, 11:03 AM

I finally tracked down the plank I was looking for!!!!!

I found it in Rhode Island - about 3 hours from here. And it's taken almost a year.

http://forum.woodenboat.com/dannieloates.com/faering/wideplank1http://www.danieloates.com/faering/wideplank1.jpg

It's 21" wide at the widest point and tapers to about 16". I was beginning to lose hope in ever finding a single plank wide enough. I was going to resort to edge joining two pieces but then I thought that might cause problems with the wood wanting to cup twice across its width. So I decided to have another try at finding a single wide piece. And here it is! I just have to make sure not to screw it up this time.
Unfortunately, I am really busy right now on other things, so I can't work on the boat for another month or more. I think by April you will be seeing me begin to post again. At least I hope so.

tapsnap

03-30-2011, 08:29 AM

Yesterday I managed to find time to shape and bend the final mid plank onto the boat. It was a little cumbersome working alone but it bent nicely to the form of the boat without too much trouble. It still needs fitting , but I'm going to leave it clamped like this for a few days before I do any more work on it. I like to leave it at least 3 days to really let the bend set.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/midestrake2.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/midstrake2.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/midstrake4.jpg

It's nice to see some change after almost a whole year.

Thad

03-30-2011, 11:37 AM

Very nice!

tapsnap

04-07-2011, 09:10 AM

I started fitting the plank. I don't have much time to work on the boat these days so progress is slow. 20 minutes here, 10 minutes there.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/fittingmidplank3.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/fittingmidplank4.jpg

emf

04-07-2011, 11:41 AM

It's good to see you back at it. Looks like you are doing a first class job.

Wish I lived closer, it would be great to come see your project.

Looks like you are about ready to start fitting the floor timbers.

davebrown

04-11-2011, 02:44 PM

That looks like a challenging build. Thanks for the continued photographs.

lagspiller

04-14-2011, 01:30 PM

Our second build stopped up about the same time yours did. 7 finished - 3 only finished with the third strake. We're at the 'frames stage' so you are catching us. There is a chance we will get back at it, and it would still be possible to hit the water with the build this spring if we did... but it's already easter. Time to be getting the other boats out of winter storage - not to be building new ones. I'm more excited about putting a few coats on my first than finishing the second right now. All I need is a little more heat and some a bit drier air.

Good to see you are making progress.

tapsnap

04-14-2011, 06:45 PM

Well my progress is slow too. This evening, I just finished tarring and caulking the seams after a week fitting the plank. If I have time tomorrow I will at least start the riveting. Now I stink of pine tar. Sometimes, working alone, sure isn't easy.

lagspiller

04-14-2011, 11:51 PM

Pine tar... the smell of spring. ;)

tapsnap

04-15-2011, 02:32 PM

Pine tar... the smell of spring. ;)
Only from a boat builder would you hear that>

I worked on the boat a few hours this morning and got the riveting finished for the plank. The boat is beginning to take a nice form.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/rivetedmidstrake3.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/rivetedmidstrake5.jpg

Thad

04-15-2011, 03:16 PM

You got that right!!!! Sweet to build something that looks so good at every stage. One more plank to go, or two?

tapsnap

04-15-2011, 04:32 PM

Just one plank to go, but next I've got to do some framing. I've got some red oak with natural bends for that, which I could soak in pine tar and linseed oil, or I could try to steam bend some black locust that I have here in the workshop. At the thickest part, I think, is about 2 1/2" X 2". I haven't decided which to go with. I am not into the idea of laminating.

tapsnap

04-21-2011, 10:25 AM

I started work on the frames on Monday. I made a template out of 1/8" luan and fitted it to the position of the middle frame to get an accurate idea of the curve I needed.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/frametemplate.jpg

I checked the curve against my naturally bent pieces of red oak and found this piece that will work.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/frame1.jpg

Last night I steam bent a piece of black locust to the correct curve as an alternative. I think I'm going to go with the steam bent locust. Traditionally, these frames are made out of fir. I think the steam bent locust would be more than adequately strong.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/steamedframe.jpg

Thorne

04-21-2011, 10:27 AM

Sweet!

lagspiller

04-21-2011, 05:14 PM

Close already! Nice work.
Clamp in a block at the top of the strakes and one on the keel (held by a strut to your strongback) to butt the frame against as you shape it to make sure you fit it to the exact same spot each time. Very small changes in place make big differences in the fit. A small angle grinder with a rough sanding flapdisc is a good tool at this point. And note that sanding the upper, more vertical parts of the frame translates to a lot more on the lower, horisontal parts. You can't take the same amount away all the length of the frame. IOW - be specially careful when grinding down the upper parts of the frame.
But you've probably figured this out already...

tapsnap

04-21-2011, 06:10 PM

Thanks for the advice. I'm going to bend the others before I try to fit this one. I need to give it some time to dry out a little. I have had this locust for about two years and it was totally green when I got it. My barn is not heated, so it was not really completely dry to start with. Fitting the template, I kind of got the idea you are talking about. I think I will first cut it to the template then do any final fitting after that.

lagspiller

04-22-2011, 09:13 AM

The template will help, but there will be a lot of adjusting to do even if it fits perfectly on the side of the frame farthest from midships after sawing to the template. That is because the bottom of the boat isn't flat. When the frame sits perfectly on both sides (bow-stern direction) a cross-section of it will form a trapez with the apex (smallest end) pointing toward the end of the boat.
IOW - the part that matches the template will touch the strake but the midship side will 'float' until you have ground off the excess on the opposite side of the frame... the edge that matches the template. The wider the frame is, the more wood there is to remove. It is easier to fit a 1 1/2 inch frame than a 2 incher.

tapsnap

04-22-2011, 10:15 AM

Yes, I understand that will happen, especially with the two end frames. The line the template follows is the center line of the frame. How wide are your frames? I don't have actual dimensions so I am estimating about 45mm. Is that about right?

lagspiller

04-22-2011, 02:04 PM

45mm sounds good. Mine are about 65mm (don't remember exactly. Could check tomorrow, cause I finished varnishing the boat in the haybarn today) Made them wide because I liked the look - enough for a double profile with some space between. But I regretted my divergent estetique while trying to fit the frames. The extra width made them much harder to fit than for the other boats. The 'correct' way is with enough room for a single profile scratched on the top centre of the frame and a bit of shoulder on each side. That means 40... 45mm. I don't have any of the other boats handy to measure right now. I think probably about 60mm tall.

skaraborgcraft

04-22-2011, 02:28 PM

This thread has been great reading. My Swedish Vatternsnipa is built very similar,especially the backbone and stems, although she has more planks per side...7....which at least makes finding replacement plank stock a little easier. Look forward to seeing the finished boats.

Lagspiller,how have you treated the wood? I see you say you have been varnishing. My boat is covered in Pine tar oil, fine if you like the workboat black finish...trätjårä.....not sure of the correct spelling. Great boats,and great work,pleasure to study. Cheers

lagspiller

04-23-2011, 12:35 AM

Mine is soaked in a thin penetrating oil applied wet on wet until it began come through the wood then turn and repeated from the other side (about 15 coats each side), and then varnished 5-6 coats. This year I just rubbed down and gave it one coat of varnish. I like Epifanes for that.

I don't know the Vatternsnipa. An inlands boat, I assume. Have to look it up...

This one?
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_gUpb8xLo0r4/TKsaZzU0HPI/AAAAAAAAACs/tycVLhKgYTY/s512/PICT1715.JPG
Very nice...

emf

04-23-2011, 09:43 AM

Lagspiller, have you seen any plank shrinkage? I remember you had used some rather green planking on your boat.

pcford

04-23-2011, 10:02 AM

Tapsnap...
Again, I applaud your skill AND courage in building this terrific boat! I have a 22ft. Oselver myself.

I would very strongly recommend that you do not attempt to replace the end frames (they are called something like "rungs".) with steamed frames.
Three reasons:
1) I do not believe you can duplicate the strength with steam bent...the radius is too tight for frames of any size.
2) Steam bent frames will not look right.
3) An alternative would be to use two air-dried doug fir planks of the appropriate thickness, say 6/4, and say 12 inches wide. Put the edge of the plank against the inside of planking and join the two with some kind of half-lap joint.

Hope this makes sense.

However, there is another alternative. Jay Smith is a builder near Anacortes, WA who apprenticed in Norway. He replaced the garboards on my Oselver last year. I need to replace the forward "rung" on my boat. Jay is building a Viking ship; it uses a lot of natural crooks. Jay has what he calls a natural crook "forest." I have talked to him about getting him a template or the old "rung" and having him rough one out for me.

You should consider doing the same.

Contact me if I can be of any further help...and again, good luck in you wonderful project!

lagspiller

04-24-2011, 11:32 AM

Lagspiller, have you seen any plank shrinkage? I remember you had used some rather green planking on your boat.
No, everything looks the way it did when the boat was finished.
Our understanding is that greener is better - easier to fit, less splitting and no need for steaming. The dried out planks gave us a lot of trouble, but I think that had most to do with the quality of the wood. The boards we cut locally were not just fresher. They were much better material.

Well done - the V-shaped frames near the stem is the 'rongen'.

However, there is another alternative. Jay Smith is a builder near Anacortes, WA who apprenticed in Norway. He replaced the garboards on my Oselver last year. I need to replace the forward "rung" on my boat. Jay is building a Viking ship; it uses a lot of natural crooks. Jay has what he calls a natural crook "forest." I have talked to him about getting him a template or the old "rung" and having him rough one out for me.
I don't have an opinion about what steaming might mean for strength, but I also doubt it would be possible to get enough bend on board thick enough to serve as a 'ronge'.

But I would definitely not glue two planks as suggested. Not only would it look odd, but I doubt it would be as strong.
I'd say there are only two options - a grown knee or laminating a frame. Both give strength in the right direction because the grain follows the curve. A knee is the absolute best, but they are hard to find. Boatbuilders here didn't just wait and hope for a find - they went into the forest and bent and tied off living trees to shapes they needed... in 10-15 years time.

A laminated ronge is the only other way to go. Use a glue that gives a colourless joint if you don't want it to be obvious it is laminated. Most of our build got laminated frames. The guys who used colourless glue have laminated frames that look like whole wood. Some of us used resorcinol glue with a brown glue kerf. That looks nice too.

There is plenty of time to look for knees - the ronge is just about the last piece that goes in.

tapsnap

04-24-2011, 11:41 AM

Yes, I was not going to attempt to steam bend these parts. I do have a red oak grown pieces that would be suitable even though they are not very durable, but as you said, I do have some time to find a pair of white oak or black locust crooks. Alternatively I could treat the red oak with preservative. PC Ford, thanks for the offer for help.

tapsnap

04-25-2011, 08:59 PM

OK, I have a question about fitting these ribs to the planking. There is some cupping across the width of the planks. On one, it is as much as 6mm. Should I try fitting the rib to this curve, or should I find the cord of the arc of the cup and pull the plank to the frame with the rivets? Or should I do something in between the two solutions? I have noticed that the boards have really become very rigid after riveting and they do not yield nearly as much to pressure as they did before. I am a little afraid of cracking a plank if I pull it in to the frames. Does anyone have any recommendations?

skaraborgcraft

04-26-2011, 12:53 AM

@ lagspiller. Yes,thats Xrilos, vatternsnipa.

When you say penetrating oil, can i assume something like thin pine oil? There is a lot of "watery" wood oils used as sealers and undercoat oil,im guessing its the same or very similar,i saturate,but have been using tung oil as a finish the last few years instead of varnish,i find its easier to maintain.That being said,Epifanes has a nice rich colour,and will be used on the storebro renovation when the time comes.

Tapsnap, i would personally bring theframe to the plank, if the board has found its place,you are quite right to worry about the board splitting if you try and force it to match its opposite side.Its just my opinion,but do you really think the guys who built these so long ago worried about a 6mm deflection of a plank? I wouldnt worry about it. Your work is great,and as an ex furniture maker myself,i understand the need for symmetry and getting everything absolutely right,but dealing with wide thin boards like these,you have to let nature lead the way and just go with the flow. Dont stress.

Peerie Maa

04-26-2011, 03:35 AM

^ + 1. There is discussion in the books on Shetland building that I have read on whether you should even nail the middle of the plank to the frame as there is a risk of splitting the plank as the boat works. Trunnels were probably OK, so I expect the problem arose when the builders went over to nails to save labour.

lagspiller

04-26-2011, 08:42 AM

You should most definitely NOT force the plank to the frame. You must fit the frame to the plank.

The whole idea of fitting the frames after the hull strakes are shaped is that THAT is the natural shape. We use a lot of time 'fine-tuning' the frame to sit perfectly to the shape the hull plank has taken. It is quite time-consuming. The finished frame should sit squarely on the complete bredth of the board without ANY openings (except for at the lapp to allow water to pass under the frame) or cause any pressure on the board when you rivet them in place.

None of the frames in any of our boats is straight-edge flat against the boards. All are curved and cupped to a certain degree... made to fit.

tapsnap

04-26-2011, 09:01 AM

Thanks everyone, that is what I was inclined to do, but I wasn't sure. Thanks for clarifying that. I have bent two frames now - one for the front and one for the middle. however now, I have run out of this wood. I know where to get more, but is the back frame put in at this stage or is it better to wait until the sheer strake is attached? I noticed the back frame extends beyond the middle strake onto the sheer strake. So is it easier to fit now or after all the strakes are in place? I was looking at your thread on building your boat, Lagspiller, but I couldn't determine at what stage it was installed.

lagspiller

04-26-2011, 09:15 AM

@ lagspiller. Yes,thats Xrilos, vatternsnipa.

When you say penetrating oil, can i assume something like thin pine oil? There is a lot of "watery" wood oils used as sealers and undercoat oil,im guessing its the same or very similar,i saturate,but have been using tung oil as a finish the last few years instead of varnish,i find its easier to maintain.That being said,Epifanes has a nice rich colour,and will be used on the storebro renovation when the time comes.

.
Nice boat. I googled 'vätternsnipa', but most of the few that came up at all looked more like 'sjekte' or small motorboats with a cabin. Usually with a step roof. Yours is much more attractive.

The 'penetration oil' is step one of a two part system. The best known is called Owatrol where the steps are D1 and D2 (http://www.owatrol.com/index.php?langue=en&page=produits-deks-olje-d1). We got a deal on the competition (by Jotun, I believe) Clipper. The steps there are Clipper I and II. They are turpentine/white spirit based. Step one is much the same as cutting a liter of Benar oil (or good varnish) 50/50 with terp. It isn't really even necessary to use step II/D2, but that gives a glossy more stain resistant surface.

If by Pine oil you mean a light pine tar (Trekkfast olje, for example) that would be very difficult to varnish over. If at all possible. Alkyd based tar product that gives this colour when used on pine... http://centerplast.no/images/stories/tjaereprodukter/ekstralys.jpg

lagspiller

04-26-2011, 09:39 AM

The mid and forward frame are put in 'now' and the third frame (towards the stern) is put in after all the strakes are in place. That one should not be cut down until you add the gunnel. That is because the third frame goes all the way to the gunnel in one piece and has no 'bete' ... no crossbeam. The mid-frame and the forward frame reach only to the top of the second last strake. They get a separate 'cross-beam' that curves up to fit against the final strake (made in two pieces - one long that looks like a ice hockey stick that reaches across to the opposite side, and a short bit that matches the curve on the other side and is lapped together with the long cross-beam and fastened with two rivets. The finished cross-beam (bete) is NOT attached to the lower part of these frames. It rests on the top of the lower part of the frame... and is only fastened to the upper strake with several rivets. The top of the frame is cut to an inverse 'V' (like a house roof) and the same shape is gouged into the upper part of the frame (the bete). That allows a very limited, independant movement.

I can find some pictures if you need more help.

lagspiller

04-26-2011, 09:55 AM

Here's one of the mid-frame (I think) without the bete...
http://22kvm.net/bilder/Robaat/album/slides/100_3412.jpg

...and then with two frames fastened, the final strake added, you begin fitting the cross-member for the two frames.
http://22kvm.net/bilder/Robaat/album/slides/100_3487.jpg

...and then fit the other side of the cross-member. In this picture you can easily see the lapp and rivetting. The cross-beams and last full frame are fitted at this time - when all the strakes are in place.
http://22kvm.net/bilder/Robaat/album/slides/100_3493.jpg
The final thing done is cutting down ALL the tops of the frames to fit tightly against the gunnel. That is what is being done in this photo.

tapsnap

04-26-2011, 10:11 AM

Thanks, I understand now. I had seen a drawing somewhere on the web where the bete is riveted through the lower frame into the plank but it was a Masfjjord boat. It makes sense to have some movement allowance across the planking.

Peerie Maa

04-26-2011, 10:12 AM

Hi Lagspiller,
I see from Faeroyvik that in some of the boats he measured the third frame was also pieced together from floor and two top timbers or a long and short arm joined with long scarfs. I feel that that would be easier to fit than a single frame from gunwale to gunwale, especially if the bottom piece were fitted now when it is easier to reach in. What say you?

lagspiller

04-26-2011, 01:03 PM

Reaching in wasn't much of a problem. Only one rivet on each side of the keel that was a bit of a stretch, and even a boat builder does have some friends. The frames with cross-bracing were a lot more work both to make and to fit. Don't know if that was a major consideration, but work is work.

Another thing that strikes me is that the boats are designed with a certain amount of 'give'. They take the force of the waves with some flex and spread the load from an outside force over a greater area. Noticed just this past weekend while varnishing and the boat was standing on its keel and supported only midships to hold it upright. A firm shake on the stem produced a pronounced, visible twist along the length of the boat... to the point that the opposite stem twisted the opposite direction.

Could be the old builders have fine-tuned their design and found a good compromise between strength and flexibility that works well for sea boats? I know of several Oselvers (virtually same design) that are well over 100 years old and were active working boats in their youth when the present owners grandfathers and great grandfathers owned them.

Weight might also be a small part of the question. Keeping boat weight low would allow for more useful payload. Haven't put mine on a scale, but two men lift it fairly easily. I'd guess about 200 lbs for a 20 ft boat.

Just some loose thoughts.

Peerie Maa

04-26-2011, 01:19 PM

The Shetland models are also made so that they wag their tails. The inwales taper off to 5 or 6 mm in thickness, and on some yoals stop before the hinniespot (breasthook).

lagspiller

04-26-2011, 01:35 PM

Hinniespot.... cool word.
Out of curiosity, does the hinniespot reach the stem or is it only attached to the strakes as with our boats? 'Flying', if you will...

Peerie Maa

04-26-2011, 04:08 PM

Hinniespot.... cool word.
Out of curiosity, does the hinniespot reach the stem or is it only attached to the strakes as with our boats? 'Flying', if you will...

It buts against but is not attached to the stem. It is not a grown crook with arms like a conventional breasthook, but is a triangular chock, with just enough hollow on its inboard edge to allow a through fastening to be clenched.

tapsnap

05-05-2011, 01:38 PM

I have a couple of concerns and questions. I'm fitting the frames and I am getting close to being done, but I think I might have taken too much off the ends of the forward frame. I have no measurements for any of this, so I am comparing what I have done to drawings and photos I have found on the internet and in books. They do vary quite considerably. Is there a rule of thumb as to where these frames should end?
I also noticed that the cross-brace has a noticable camber/arch which means that the lower frames should be cut to take that arch and not be cut with a straight line across from one frame end to the other. Is that correct?
Finally, which is best to use .... trunnel or rivets. I have heard that splitting of the planking is less likely if a trunnel is used and it is easier to repair. I have nails which are long enough but perhaps someone can tell me the advantages and disadvantages of both methods. Also, I only have one size of rove. Do I need a bigger rove for the larger nail?

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/frameroughfit3.JPG

Another problem. In truing up the boat, I found that I had to take a lot more off the edges than I had wanted. The boat is now symmetrical but it's about 5cm narrower than my 3D drawing called for and the measurements are now no longer like the design from Faeroyvik's book and certainly not even close to Lagspillers boat. Still the lines look good and I think that that is more important than anything else. I will make adjustments to my 3D drawing and try to make compensations in the next plank.

Thad

05-05-2011, 02:18 PM

I'd say, these boats are always different and if it looks good it will be good, you will make it so, I know. If the bottom is a little narrow it may also be a little fast as well as a little tippy. I think there is not much to say between trunnels and rivets, except it's a lot easier to get the copper nails and roves. Generally roves or burrs are sized to match the nail/nail head, but except for wanting the rove hole smaller than the nail (if too too small there may be problems driving the nail through) I know of no reason you need different size roves.

Peerie Maa

05-05-2011, 02:37 PM

Another problem. In truing up the boat, I found that I had to take a lot more off the edges than I had wanted. The boat is now symmetrical but it's about 5cm narrower than my 3D drawing called for and the measurements are now no longer like the design from Faeroyvik's book and certainly not even close to Lagspillers boat. Still the lines look good and I think that that is more important than anything else. I will make adjustments to my 3D drawing and try to make compensations in the next plank.

5cm in how much? Over 1 metre? I would not worry about it.

lagspiller

05-05-2011, 03:36 PM

I was more afraid your boat would flair out too much... not be too narrow. It is more typically a problem that the strakes fall outward if you are not very careful. I'd be a little more worried about losing the height you mention instead of too narrow a beam. Beam is easy to make up in the next strake. If you want. But with only 3 strakes, height might be a bit more difficult to make good. Depends on whether you can get wide enough material.

I understand tapsnap to be saying 5cm over the entire length of the boat. Don't know if that means 2.5cm pr side or 5cm pr side.
But boats are all individual - and that measure will be well above the waterline. In other words, the difference will be less at waterline. There is one oselver in the local club that is narrower than the general norm. It is competative with the other boats - has a hairfine edge in some conditions and the opposite in others, but not enough that it matters.

Looking at the photos, I'd say your lower frames are well high enough. Probably too high... Ours end near the middle of the strake. I believe that is mostly due to the fastening of the cross-brace. You need a nail through the brace and the strakes both over and under the lapp and one under your gunwhale. Your lower frame looks to be higher than will allow for the lower nail in the cross-brace?

Cut the top of the lower frame straight across... horisontal... parallel to the water. There is a slight camber/arch in the crossbrace, but you build that into the brace itself. The ends rest squarely on the top of the lower frame. The 'house roof' profile doesn't need to be very high either. About a cm higher in the middle than at the edges.

We used long, copper boat nails - flat head and about 6inch (from memory) - and larger roves. But when we ran out, the normal size also worked. We simply enlarged the hole in the rove. I've never seen anything but boat nails used for fastening frames.

tapsnap

05-05-2011, 04:05 PM

I was estimating before, but I just measured across the boat at the widest point. It measures 123.5cm. According to the 3D drawing I made, it should be 129.5cm. So it is about 6cm shy of what it should be. The sheer planks need to be about 32cm wide to make up the difference. I was working to a drawing based on the red end view. The black lines show the end view of another Oselvar boat. As you can see they are quite different. I think that even if I use 32cm wide boards, the sheer will end up closer to the black boat's sheer line. I think that will be OK though.
http://www.danieloates.com/faering/oselvarsuperimposed.jpg

It's good to find out I don't have to steam bend another frame.

I think I will do some tests with these larger nails on some scrap wood and see if these roves will work.

lagspiller

05-06-2011, 10:24 AM

The black lines look more 'oselver-ish' to my eye. Almost surprised it isn't even 'deeper' / narrower than that.

I think I will do some tests with these larger nails on some scrap wood and see if these roves will work.

I wouldn't worry about it. Remember, the nails go in from the outside. Can't imagine a rove pulling through or cracking a frame. That just isn't possible...

tapsnap

05-06-2011, 02:04 PM

No, there is no danger of the rove pulling through the frame, but I want to determine the right size pilot hole for these thicker, longer nails.

lagspiller

05-06-2011, 02:44 PM

The hole should be pretty much the same size as the nail. You don't want much press on the board.

tapsnap

05-09-2011, 01:00 PM

Lagspiller, I have figured out the size of hole I need to drill. One other question... Do you put any pine tar or any other goop between the frames and the planks before you rivet them together?

lagspiller

05-09-2011, 01:20 PM

We used linseed oil only Painted it on onto both surfaces. When you begin oiling and varnishing the boat, everything gets sealed again.
Can't see how pint tar could hurt, but we didn't use it. Just linseed.

We also use only two double-strand threads of boat cotton between the strakes. Dipped in linseed oil and stretched over and under the rivets. My boat hardly leaked a drop on launching and quickly tightened up, so I know that works.

skaraborgcraft

05-09-2011, 02:39 PM

The pine tar i use even when thinned out with balsam turpentine,will end up giving you a black hull eventually. It gives great protection,but it soaks up heat something bad in the sun,and most of the planks have rents in places.Im thinking next spring to burn off the entire hull,i expect most of the remaining tar will melt into the timber,but she is getting a little lumpy in the finish, i have even had thoughts of painting the inside white....but then i will lose the advantage of just sloshing the whole boat with the one recipe.

allmogebat is probably a better search word to find this kind of swedish boat. "snipa" covers just about any small boat.

I wouldnt worry about that 5cm either. Keep at it. Loving this thread.

tapsnap

05-09-2011, 02:59 PM

Thanks everyone!

emf

05-10-2011, 08:31 AM

lagspiller, are you guys using raw linseed?

tapsnap

05-10-2011, 08:53 AM

I got the first frame riveted to the planks last night. It wasn't too much trouble once I had figured out a hands-free way to back up the nail on the underside. I made a bit of a mess with the tar but I can clean that up later. I used the same size rove I had been using for the smaller shank nails and found that it was fairly easy to punch the nail through. I had anticipated all sorts of problems but it was actually pretty straight forward.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/rivetedframe1.jpghttp://www.danieloates.com/faering/rivetedframe1.JPGhttp://www.danieloates.com/faering/rivetedframe2.jpg

I was having problems getting the forward frame to fit. I was loosing too much thickness in the frame so I decided to steam bend another one late yesterday afternoon. This one gives me more wood to play with. It's about 3" at the widest point. The old one is sitting on top of the new one.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/frameremake1.jpg

lagspiller

05-10-2011, 01:29 PM

They can be tricky to fit. Looks like you got the first one very nice & tight. We used a piece of paper to check. Shouldn't be room to slide it under anywhere. Also think you made the right call about parking the second. Looks quite thin.
I'm wondering if you don't need one more nail on each side. I'd put one on each side of the upper lap... two on each strake except were it becomes ridiculous.

lagspiller, are you guys using raw linseed?

Raw.

tapsnap

05-10-2011, 04:04 PM

I was worried about putting too many nails in each plank because of expansion and contraction as the boat comes in and out of the water. The frame will not allow much movement. I was even reluctant to put in a second on the bottom plank. The Faeroyvik drawings show one nail per plank. Is this a concern you had at all?

lagspiller

05-10-2011, 10:58 PM

I think the problem is the other way around. Without enough 'pins' the excessive twisting movement when the boat is in use will put too much stress on the pinning of the strakes ... leading to splitting, Or at least a very 'loose' boat. Two rivets on each strake gives longitudinal support for twist. It also spreads the load. All ours get two rivets pr strake - for the strake with the joint between the upper and lower frame, that means one in each part. I don't have our Oselvers handy right now, but I believe it is the same there.

tapsnap

05-11-2011, 07:35 AM

OK, I'll put in another rivet on each upper plank. Thanks.

auscruisertom

05-15-2011, 06:17 AM

Hi Guys Love this thread and the building porogress, those shapes and lines really stir my blood. Presently trying to clear my boatshed of a plastic flyer ,and scouting around for suitable planking material down under" possibly Hoop Pine"? I want to build traditional having built an Ian Outright Ness boat previously in ply.My question is what plans or details are you using in regards to stem shape plank angle ect. The only other info I've found is WB165 Oselver Verkstateden. Forgive my interuption Cheers Tom

tapsnap

05-15-2011, 08:20 AM

I'm not really working from any plans. The stem shape was a bit of a guess. My stems are more of a continuous 48" arc. I see now that it is quite different from a traditional Oselvar. Their stems come up from the keel in a very shallow arc then the radius gets tighter towards the top. But the front and the back stems are quite different from each other. Having worked on this project and studied many pictures and illustrations, I have become vary aware of the subtleties of the Oselvar lines and forms and how different my boat is to what is "correct". To help me with understanding the design, I bought Bernhard and Oystein Faeroyvik's book "Inshore craft of Norway". I took the basic lines from one of the Oselvars shown in the book and manipulated them in my 3D program. I get most of my angles and measurements from that. 3D model. But even with these lines, my boat has strayed from what was shown in the book. Lagspiller does have plans for his boat which is a 4 plank faering. He has been tremendously helpful, as have others, in the questions I have had regarding construction, techniques, materials, dimensions and so on.

emf

05-15-2011, 10:51 AM

Iain Oughtred has plans for a 15' and 16' faering in glued lap ply but does have the plans for solid plank versions.http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/details.asp?Name=ElfynHere is my own 15' design http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5182/5693535850_cd46f772e4.jpg

auscruisertom

05-16-2011, 05:47 AM

Hey Daniel thanks for the reply, wow no plans admirable. I shall try and request the book through our national maritime library. Emf Iain Outright's Elfyn looks a lot like a Ness boat minus one strake and a slightly sharper entry,the sailplan picture a Wylie boat minus the skeg. Would you agree a full 2" by 5" Aussie hardwood taperd would be a good starting point,for the keel. Cheers Tom

tapsnap

05-26-2011, 12:11 PM

Auscruisertom, the dimensions of the keel I began with were about 3"X 4.5". See the beginning of this thread for details about how it was shaped.

I've got the second frame in place and the next plank roughly shaped.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/1stsheer2.JPG

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/1stsheer5.JPG

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/1stsheer6.JPG

auscruisertom

05-29-2011, 05:07 AM

Tapsnap, thanks for the keel dimensions,at least it will give me a starting point. Presently on the lookout for a large hoop pine,that I'm hoping to mill into manageble sections. I may have to consider four planks per side,sure would be good to find some plans. Cheers Tom

tapsnap

06-07-2011, 01:20 PM

Got the first part of the starboard sheer riveted on today. It's beginning to take on the familiar form of the Oselvar I think. It's a little hot today so I am pouring water on the ground to keep the humidity up.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/riveted1stsheer3.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/riveted1stsheer4.jpg

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/riveted1stsheer8.jpg

lagspiller

06-07-2011, 04:27 PM

Got the first part of the starboard sheer riveted on today. It's beginning to take on the familiar form of the Oselvar I think. It's a little hot today so I am pouring water on the ground to keep the humidity up.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/riveted1stsheer3.jpg
Looking very boatish, tap.
Excuse me if I am guessing wrong, but are you hammering a rove down over a rivet in this shot? If so, I'd use the hammer on the other side... hammer on the rivet head and buck it with the 'rove-holder' on the inside.

06-07-2011, 04:53 PM

I love the shape of those boats, very nice.

tapsnap

06-07-2011, 06:46 PM

davebrown

06-07-2011, 11:07 PM

YOu're making progress. That's a tough build. Good work.

Songololo

06-08-2011, 01:29 AM

Looking good!

This seems to be quite a challenging but also rewarding boat building method. Do you know of any books, magazine articles or online resources which describe this building method in full, including the selection of materials?

lagspiller

06-08-2011, 06:19 AM

Lagspiller, you are right I am hammering down a rove onto a nail. Working alone, I have set up a "hands free" way of backing up the head of the nail using a 4lb dolly, wedged and propped against the head. It takes a little time to set up each rivet but it works.

Ok... but we usually work alone, too. Try turning the hammering around - hold the form you use with the rove in place over the rivet with one hand... and hammer (easy strikes - no need to hit hard) on the rivet from the outside of the hull. Then switch around, bucking hammer on the outside, and pean the rivet on the inside with your peaning hammer. No problem knocking the rove in place and it is just as fast or faster than working with someone.

tapsnap

06-08-2011, 07:15 AM

Ohhh, I see - it never occurred to me to do it that way! Thanks for the tip.

Songolola, there is a book in the "Wooden Boat" series, callled "Planking and Fastening", edited by Peter H Spectre, that describes the process quite well and has lots of pictures. It's actually a great book to own. It describes almost all of the various boat planking techniques with many helpful tips. However, I don't think Lagspiller's tip was mentioned.

Songololo

06-08-2011, 07:33 AM

Thanks for that. I have Planking & Fastening, but had not seen that before. The chapter is titled Moldless Lapstrake Planking.

emf

06-08-2011, 10:32 AM

tapsnap

06-11-2011, 09:17 AM

I roughly shaped an bent the next strake around the boat last night.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/sheer2strake3.jpg.

Next week I will try to find time to fit and rivet it.

Thad

06-11-2011, 10:07 AM

Ooh, ooh, ooh! Feel like rowing! But . . . one thing at a time.

lagspiller

06-12-2011, 06:58 AM

You can look forward to rowing it. I just launched mine yesterday and had the first row of the season together with the brother in law. He was used to rowing other types of boats and was amazed at how easily this type rowed. It glides on and on between strokes losing very little speed.
You are going to love it.

tapsnap

06-12-2011, 10:06 AM

Do you have any pictures of your launch?

lagspiller

06-13-2011, 02:55 AM

Didn't take any photos then. It was kind of a non-event. Borrowed a trailer and had to return it quickly, so I left the boat on the sand in our well protected harbour while the tide was out. Came back at high tide to a float boat.
It didn't leak more than a half cup of water the first hours and was completely dry by the time I rowed it to the floating dock. Nice to see.
(Doesn't that picture stir your boatbuilder blood?)

tapsnap

06-13-2011, 12:42 PM

Just half a cup? I don't know if my boat will be quite that watertight. It's not so much the seams I am worried about as the scarfs that appear rather too open on the outside of the boat. Is that something you have on your boats? The hood ends could also be a problem. We shall see.

lagspiller

06-13-2011, 01:06 PM

We applied a stripe of Tec7 about a cm inside the outer lip of the scarf and clamped them. That 'glued' them enough to ensure that they didn't open up on the trailing edge as temp/water content changed. I don't think it is important for the integrity of the joint, but it looks better.
Not sure how you are finishing that trailing edge, but we don't feather it to 0. We leave the outside edge about 2mm thick and just round it a bit after the hull gets turned over as part of the finishing work.

tapsnap

06-13-2011, 02:15 PM

I feathered them to 0. They do seem quite fragile, not being in contact with the face of the other scarf. I may have to cut them back a little to give them a little thickness. Would more caulking and tar fix it do you think?

lagspiller

06-13-2011, 03:54 PM

Hmm. I would glue them with something with a little flex. Some of the guys used polyurethane glue - the type that 'foams' in contact with moisture. That made an invisible glue line and is completely impervious to water. A stripe of that and some press will flush the edge to the hull. A bit of board to spread the load and a strut to the floor will do the trick where you can't use a boatclamp.

In the future, the inner edge of the scarf goes to 0 and the outer edge is left with about 2 mm that you sand down in the final prep. It actually looks nicest that way, in addition to being stronger.

tapsnap

06-13-2011, 05:24 PM

If you have the outer edge 2mm higher than the piece you are scarfing to, isn't there a problem with the seam bevel for the next plank?

Peerie Maa

06-13-2011, 05:37 PM

Would not have thought so. Just plane the bevel right across it. The bevel surface will widen as it runs up the 2mm lip on the scarf, and you can fair the outer surface after the next strake is clenched and holds it all together.

tapsnap

06-13-2011, 06:56 PM

Well, I can do that on the last two scarfs but the others will have to be what they are. The pine tar does not really allow for gluing at this point.

lagspiller

06-14-2011, 05:02 AM

Peerie described it perfectly. We use an 8cm wide bit of wood as a pattern for both sides of the scarf after cutting the board to the final length. Then plane the edge of the inside face to 0 (because that is pressed together by the curve of the hull when clinked in place) and edge on the outside face to 2mm. It not only makes the end less likely to split, it looks right. Looks strong.

I forgot you used pine tar. That would make it difficult to glue. Perhaps you can mix a putty of sawdust and pine tar? So that the paper thin edge gets some support and doesn't catch on anything. I can't think of anything else that will not be rejected by tar... We have a paint called 'Black Varnish' that is pine tar based. I've mixed a putty of that and chalk - which was an old-time remedy under the waterline. Otherwise you will have to just cut the part that sticks out back later as you suggested.

tapsnap

06-14-2011, 07:56 AM

tapsnap

06-24-2011, 06:39 PM

I found time to rivet on the second back sheer strake today. Fitting took longer that the last one. I'm not really sure why. But riveting was faster.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/secondbacksheer2.JPG

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/secondbacksheer4.JPG

lagspiller

06-25-2011, 03:20 AM

Looking good.
I've got a little advice for you when you are finished with the entire strake and are ready to cut the board down to height... to find the sheerline. You are going to need to move the building string up. Perhaps you remember why, but I thought I mention it now.

skaraborgcraft

06-25-2011, 04:12 AM

looking good...keep at it....

Peerie Maa

06-25-2011, 07:00 AM

Yeh, I'm sure some kind of thickened tar goop will work. The gap is not that large - only about 1 to 2mm. Even a thin wooden shim tarred and wedged in would work . On closer inspection, it's really just that outside edge - the scarfs are actually really tight - especially on the inside.

Try working some hot pitch into the gap. It will set fairly hard, but will not move with wetting and drying as a wood shim will.

tapsnap

06-25-2011, 08:06 AM

Pitch? You mean coal tar? The stuff they use on roads and telegraph poles?

Peerie Maa

06-25-2011, 08:22 AM

Pitch? You mean coal tar? The stuff they use on roads and telegraph poles?

No that is runny, pitch sets hard, also called bitumen.

tapsnap

06-29-2011, 09:41 PM

I was a good feeling to get this strake bent onto the boat today. I was really curious to see the beginnings of the whole form of the boat. Putting on this plank gave me a good idea of the final form. It still needs to be properly fitted but it looks good to me.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/firstfrontsheerstrake1.JPG

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/firstfrontsheerstrake5.JPG

lagspiller

07-01-2011, 05:36 AM

Very impressive project, building this in what must be a totally foreign technique for you, and for everyone around you... and only a little internet advice for help/support. Damned well done.

tapsnap

07-01-2011, 09:10 AM

Thanks, but as you know, it's a technique that you pick up quite quickly. The biggest hurdles for me was fear of screwing up! Once I had done the thing a couple of times with success, it becomes quite easy. Thanks for teaching me how to do these things.

auscruisertom

07-02-2011, 03:57 AM

She is looking fantastic always a gret feeling when your at this point.Cheers Tom

tapsnap

08-05-2011, 04:38 PM

I've been working slowly over the past few weeks getting the last two planks fitted and riveted into place and I am happy to say, They are on. I still need to work on the sheer lines a little. The beam of the boat ended up being 61.5" but that is without the rub rail.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/finishedplanking6.jpg

After working on the sheer I will start making the form for the back frame. I have cut a template out of thin plywood as a guide for the correct shape. You can see that resting in the back of the boat.

http://www.danieloates.com/faering/finishedplanking2.jpg

I regret making such a mess with the pine tar. I look at others making these boats and none of them are as messy as my boat.

lagspiller

08-06-2011, 10:16 AM

Congratulations.
Did you use the technique of sighting over the central building string from the opposite side to find your sheerline? It should match along the entire length except for the final 50-60cm at the stems. That area has to be fine-tuned by sight.

Pine tar is messy stuff. The difference you have seen in other boats just might be that not many others have used it in the lapps. Most I've seen here used raw linseed instead. Yours will certainly be better impregnated.
What are you going to finish it with - a pinetar based oil? Trekkfastolje?

tapsnap

08-06-2011, 11:07 AM

I'm not sure what you mean by the sighting over the center string technique. I can sight the boat from the side from a distance and compare the two sheers. Is this what you mean?

The finish will probably be a pine tar finish. I'm not sure of the ratios but I believe it is a mixture of pine tar, turpentine and linseed oil - correct me if I'm wrong. I actually like the look the tar finished boats, although I'm sure they get hotter in the sun and tend to transfer tar to your clothes.

tapsnap

08-06-2011, 01:41 PM

OK Lagspiller, I re-read your posts and I think I understand now. By raising the string to where the sheers meet the stems, you can sight over the string to get a straight line to which you can plane. If this is the technique, then I have an inch or two to take off the fronts and backs. The middles appear to be the lowest points.

lagspiller

08-06-2011, 02:16 PM

Ah. Well. I mentioned that when you get to cutting the top board down to final shape that I had a trick to share with you - in case you might have forgotten it. ;)

No, no. The sheerline is a perfectly 100% straight line, like the arc of a circle sector would appear to be be when viewed from 'on edge' - except for the last bits near the stems. It is a very neat trick and quite astounding when you see how simple it is to find a beautiful sheerline. (Not in any way passing judgement on what you have shown in your photo. But you might like to check and see how close you got with whatever method you used)

Stand on the opposite side of the boat from the sheer you want to draw - and line up the central building string with the projected height of the sheer at midships. (Or in your case, at the height you cut your board down to, midships)
Then simply sight along the line and have a partner mark the height at a number of places where the string 'meets' the board.

I don't have a good picture handy showing exactly what I am trying to explain, but these shots will indicate how the string aligns with the sheerline.

http://22kvm.net/bilder/Robaat/album/slides/100_3490.jpg
You can see how the string indicates the top edge of the finished board, even though the photo was not taken from midships.

http://22kvm.net/bilder/Robaat/album/slides/100_3570.jpg
Same here, on this boat... even though the photo is not taken from midships.
In reality, when you stand midships and sight over the string, everything except the final cm at both ends matches perfectly.

But when you stand a bit away from the boat the sheerline suddenly begins to look anything but straight...
http://22kvm.net/bilder/Robaat/album/slides/100_3572.jpg

I explained the same technique towards the end of my thread a couple of years ago and you might find it and a better photo if you care to browse through those pages.